Hi all,

This is a continuation of the thread below:
Young Chang PG vs Yamaha

To recap a bit,... I'm looking for a grand piano for my wife and kids,... At first we were leaning toward a new Young Chang PG-175 but we decided to pass on that after we tried a few other pianos,... and now we're seriously considering a 1971 Mason & Hamlin Model A,... it is still in original condition, nothing has been reconditioned recently. It belonged to an elderly couple who just moved to the nursing home. An RPT in MN is helping the owner sell the piano,... it's about 5.5 hours away from where we live

I just received some pictures of the piano from the RPT,... you can see them here: Piano Pictures
From the picture it seems to me that it's still in excellent condition.

Ok,... here comes my few questions for all distinguished Pianoworld citizens out there,...

- Larry Fine mentioned that between 1960 and 1980 the quality of M&H pianos declined as the company 'cheapened' the pianos,... However, he didn't really go into the details on what was 'worse' in the pianos from this time and how they compare to other pianos out there,... Anybody have any thought how the quality of M&H from this time compares to today's Yamaha C2, Kawai RX2 or others in the same price range? Anybody knows what corners were cut during this time and what I should watch out for?

- I have an idea how much a new model A cost and using the depreciation schedule in Larry's book I have an idea on what's a fair price for this piano,... but that's only 1 source,... I'd like to hear what you guys think,...

Our plan is to listen to the piano over the phone, then make the trip to MN to see and play it,... we'll bring the checklist from the Piano Book,... we'll stop by Jim Laab's on the way to try the new Model A and try a few other different brands of piano,... After we tried it,... if we're happy with it,... we'll find an independent tech to check it out before making our offer,...

Ok,... thank you all for reading this,... I really appreciate any advice that you can give me,...

Best Regards,

Robert Hidajat

An independent high end rebuilder can remanufacture this piano better than when it came out of the Aeolian factory new, no problem, in that the original production piano was nothing to write home about. 35 years is not exactly a newer piano either. Whether it is a good value is based on the asking price of this piano. To me it is a "core piano" candidate (a little life remaining) in need of restoration not due to it being worn out but the issue of workmanship of the piano when new. The case, soundboard,tension bar reasonator are fine in this era as a core piano but the remaining, action and top end are far from perfect. Again contingent on PRICE What do they want for it? If you could find a fully remanufactured M&H A for around the same pricepoint as this original one ,the decision is a no brainer.
Good Luck

After looking at the pics,I must admit it is in great original cond. but my opinion remains unchanged Contingent and reflective on PRICE

Jim Laabs has received favorable comments here, and he is willing to negotiate. You may want to audition examples of all the pianos in his showroom. (I think that he at least used to have two locations.) Multi-line dealers can offer a good opportunity to experience a range of tonal palettes.

Following up on pianobroker's post, the bass strings and hammers may be nearing the end of their musical life and the action may need regulation.

In general a pre-purchase inspection by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller is the best used piano money that you can spend. IMO you should not hesitate to get a second opinion re any repairs/upgrades which should be done now or in the new few years.

Hello Robert, I read your earlier thread and noticed that the asking price for the Mason is $10,500. It seems to me that you are getting to a great piano for your young family. If I was you I would be very interested in buying the piano and having a great tech improve the action and bass strings if and when they need them. As a "core" piano this one looks and should sound great or sound great with some improvement. Surely you can have a wonderful piano for less than $15,000. You seem to be doing a great job shopping for a piano.

Make sure a competent tech looks aver the action and damper action carefully. These vintage pianos often used some poor quality leather and cloth. Some of the parts were VERY roughly machined. Lots of issues with bushings and centers. Like Broker said, the action and top end can be far from perfect even though the case looks great. These things can be problems that you can just handle as they come up, but with original parts, problems may come up fairly often if the piano is used with regularity.

Just be aware.

Hi all,...

Thank you for all the great advice!

We're still planning to make the trip up to see the piano next weekend,.. now I know a few areas to pay closer attention to,...

There are a couple more options that just popped up in the area,...

- Ebony 1980 Model A for $9K as mentioned in a thread by Deerwood Guy 1980 Vintage M&H A

- Almost identical Walnut 1972 Model A for $12,789 at Schmitt Music M&H A at Schmitt

I'm sure that these 3 may be in very different conditions,... we're planning to see them all so we can compare and contrast,...

A few more questions I hope all of you can help me with,...
- What happened with M&H put out by Aolian between 1970 and 1980,... Fresh out of the factory,... is there any difference in quality between 1971, 1972, or 1980 Model A?
- Craigen commented on the 1971 that the dealers were "not hipped to the concept of dealer prep" at this time,... Is it safe to assume that they improved in the 9 years and conclude that the 1980 should be relatively 'better' prepped by the dealer?
- Any idea what is the margin on used piano that a dealer like Schmitt has,... Another data point that can help me hone in on the 'right' price for these Aolian M&H Model A,...

Regards,

Robert

It's probably irrelevant what degree of prep the pianos received in 1971 and 1980, respectively; what matters now is what kind of regulation work and other maintenance they've received in the past few years.

Hi Monica,...

Good point

After we play and look over the piano this weekend,... we'll see if any of them captured our hearts enough for us to have an RPT look them over,...

Regards,

Robert

Monica,
The only relevance as to the prep the piano had when new is, frequently folks have nothing done to their pianos but tuning and too little of that. "1971 in original condition" might still bear the scares of poor or no prep in terms of initial regulation and hammer voicing.
There was no difference in the M&H's from 1971-80 that I could determine.
I don't know what Larry Fine is referring to in his comments about "cheapening". I've worked on a lot of M&H's from this period and have seen nothing out of the ordinary. Plates, rims, soundboards all the same. Actions the same that I could see. From what I could see in the photos, in my lexicon, I would not consider this a "core" piano by any means.
The cabinet work and finish look great.
The strings are bright and show no rust.
The soundboard looks crack less.
Bridges looked in tact.
Only wild cards are bass strings and action wear.
It may be that hammer shaping, regulation, and a couple of good tunings are all it needs for the next 10-15 years.

I just played a nice 1977 Mason and Hamilion A tonight. I have to say, against a Kawaii or Yamaha it really is so much better. In all honesty, the sound is almost as good as a Steinway, and the action was slightly worse than a Steinway as well. If you want another good piano imo to compare it to, it's sound is defiantly better than a Schimmel, but action isn't. As far as pianos I've played, a Schimmel really has the best action I've ever felt. Oh and just to be clear, the seller said that this piano had it's action redone (right term?) a couple of years ago.

Hi all,...

I'm sorry it took me a while to write this trip report. We made it to MN and we had a great trip thanks to great advice and suggestions from Deerwood Guy and Patrick Bowers.

Ok,... Here comes the report

With the 2007/2008 PB Supplement, the Piano Book, copies of the Used Piano Checklist from PB, a bunch of snack and toys, some Kindermusik and the Wiggles CDs in the car we're finally ready to go

We started Saturday off with a 3 hr trip to Bloomington, MN to see the 1980 M&H - Satin Ebony. A very nice lady owns it,... she inherited it from her uncle who was a priest who received the piano from a couple of old ladies when they passed away. It hasn't been tuned in over 3 years but the owner had it tuned just before we came,... the owner was gracious enough to bring out a bunch of toys to distract our kids while my wife played the piano. It sounds pretty good to us,... very rich sound,... and from the outside it looks like it's still in good shape.

Next here I come with the checklist, a pen and a flashlight trying to play detective,... I noticed some water spots and cracks on the soundboard but they're pretty minor, then on to the bridge where I noticed a seam in the middle of the treble bridge cap (I thought that the bridge cap is supposed to be a single piece of wood,... not 2 pieces connected/glued together), then when I see underneath the piano I see a few things that really concerned me,... some screw holes and a metal hook that was used to hang something on the wood frame, and a split rib right in the middle of the piano,... the rib is split in half with one half still glued to the soundboard and the other half hanging lower with 1/4" gap in between,...

I don't know how expensive it would be to fix all these things,... but with enough things that concerns me we put this at the bottom of our list for now.

Next,... we're off to lunch to Hong Kong Noodle for a very satisfying Walnut Shrimp and Chow Fun (fried wide & flat noodle) topped off with some awesome smoothies with tapioca pearl,... avocado for me, watermelon for the kids, and mango for my wife,... although she later hijacked mine and made me drink the mango instead:)

Ok,... with a full stomach off we go to Schmitt's at Brooklyn Center,...

At Schmitts,... the first thing we looked at is the 72 M&H - Satin Walnut,... from the outside it looked pretty bad,... a lot of scratches on the lid and around the piano, some 1-2 feet long!,... my wife played it anyway and we found the tone very bright almost the total opposite of the 80 M&H,... Then I went on to check things out a bit further and found doping (black oily stains) around the tuning pins, some pins seem to be hammered into the pinblock already, some rust on the strings and a spliced bass string so I didn't check it out further and this quickly came off our list.

Another note,... the salesman was telling us how it was not made by Aolian but by Mason & Hamlin in their own factory,... which I believe was false based on the info from the Piano Book.

Then we tried some RX-1 and RX-2, a used Yamaha C1 and a rebuilt Steinway O. We like the RX-2,... did not like the RX-1 or the Yamaha,... and we also like the Steinway although the price is way above our budget. We found that their price is quite a bit higher than the dealer in Iowa,... even for their 'B' Stock RX-2s. So if we ever decided on an RX-2 instead we'll probably go with a dealer in Iowa.

No toys here for the kids so they were entertaining themselves by sitting and spinning around on the salesman's chair,...

Ok,... by this time it's already 3:30p.m. and we'd like to squeeze in a visit to another dealer before they close even thought we know that the kids are getting cranky because they missed their nap time,... anyway,...off we go to Jim Laab's,...

Here's 3 little words that saved me much grief while piano shopping with my kids: portable DVD player.

Sorry you haven't found The One yet, hidajat, but hopefully you're learning a lot by trying all these pianos and discovering what you do and don't like about them.

He in fact did find "The One" Monica -- it's a beautiful "sort of new" M&H A at Jim Laabs, but his new buddy Jim can't quite talk him into trading his retirement nest egg in for it. I don't know about you, Monica, but I think Robert has his priorities just a tad out of whack.

We met Jim at Jim Laab's,...

He quickly told the kids not to touch the piano so I became more worried with the keeping the kids off the piano than trying out the pianos,... we had to split up,... I let my wife play the piano while I keep the kids at bay while listening from a distance,...

My wife tried a new M&H Model A and CC, Estonia 190, Vogel, Schimmel, Brodmann, and Bosendorfer... She went back and forth among these pianos but she kept coming back to the M&H Model A and I knew that I was in trouble because it's way over our budget

Ruling out the M&H CC and the Bosendorfer because they are way way way above our budget,... she liked the M&H Model A (Satin Ebony) the most then the Schimmel (I think more because of the beautiful Polished Walnut finish that she really likes), then the Estonia, Vogel and Brodmann last,... I was quite surprised when she told me that the Estonia's tone can't hold a candle to the M&H A,... even though it's a bit longer and it was her favorite out of the pianos that we've tried in the past,... even beating the Shigeru Kawai SK2.

Jim offered us an extraordinarily great deal for the M&H and the Schimmel,... the same price,... with a very very hard to resist financing option. It really took all my power to just take the serial number down, get his phone number and walk out of the store without purchasing a piano.

Ok,... off to our last stop of our piano shopping trip for the day,... a 2 hour trip to Glenwood, MN to see the 71 M&H - Satin Walnut,...

We went to our hotel in Alexandria, MN first to check-in,... stopped by McDonald to get some McNuggets for the kids, get some gas, then off we go to Glenwood.

Nice post....

Ok,... Jay Mercier is a tech selling the piano for the owner. He was very gracious to let us come late in the evening and he has some Legos for the kids! He's a really great guy,... answers all of our questions objectively and we really feel very comfortable with him,...

The 71 M&H is in the best shape out of the used M&H that we looked at,... no major concerns on the piano itself from me other than a cracked lid prop stick which I understand now as a minor issue,...

However,... I don't know if it's because she was already tainted from playing the new M&H A,... she's not crazy about the tone of the piano,... she said that it sounds a bit muffled,... like listening to the piano when you have water stuck in your ear after swimming,...
The room maybe a factor too since it's in a corner of a small showroom with low ceiling,... compared to the huge room at Jim Laab's and Schmitt,...

Still high on our list since it's in our budget yay!!

We also tried a 6'+ Perzina and Hallet & Davis,... My wife somewhat likes the Perzina since it looks really good, polished ebony with Bubinga accents,... and it's just a bit above out budget,... the tone is ok,... a bit on the bright side like a Yamaha,...

Ok,... by this time it's alreay 9:30p.m. so off we go back to grab some late dinner at the only place left that's open,... China Buffet, in Alexandria,... and that's the end of our piano shopping day

The next day we decided to spend the day (well half the day since we have a 5 hours trip back) for the kids,... no more piano shopping,... We spent some time to swim at the hotel in the morning then we went to the Mall of America to see some shark at the aquarium, mechanical animals at the Rainforest Cafe, and ride some rides at the park,...

A great trip overall,... we learned quite a bit and we had some fun and great food too

Oh,... I forgot to mention an excellent crab with ginger dinner at Shuang Cheng in Minneapolis before our trip back,...

On Sunday while we were at the park,... Jim Laab's called again to ask if we've made our decision,... then again in the middle of last week,... he's very persistent,... but we were so busy last week with our daily activities that we didn't get a chance to review our notes from the trip until this past weekend,...

Well,... we reviewed our notes this past weekend,...

We're really tempted to overlook the tone of the 71 M&H and chalk it up to room acoustic,... just get it in our house and maybe spend some money for voicing if the tone is still not satisfying,...

And we're really really tempted to get the new M&H A even though it will mean that we'll have to sacrifice a few other things to pay for it,...
but then I found out from the serial number that it was manufactured in 2002! I asked Jim about it and he said that he didn't know and he bought it new 3 months ago,... I have not asked him further if he knew the history of the piano in the past 5 years yet,... I'll post a new thread with questions on 'x' years old brand new piano later:)

So,... we ultimately decided to keep shopping and saving for now,... until we either find another piano in our budget that we're very happy with or we've saved enough to buy a new M&H A

In the mean time I'll keep reading through all the very informative threads here and learn as much as I can,...

Apple*,... Kansas City will probably be our next trip,... I'm not sure how soon we can make it though since my wife is a couple of months away from having our 3rd child:)

Regards,

Robert Hidajat

Great trip reports (hmmm, I wonder what your favorite cuisine is? At least while traveling )

Resist the urge to "settle" for a particular piano, hoping that it will sound better with a bit of tweaking or in a different venue. It's a lot of hassle to go through and a lot of money to pick something you're not really crazy about. Remember, you're going to have to look at/play the thing every day, be confident in your purchase!

Enjoy the process (as it seems like you're doing). We also drug our two kids along during our ~year long piano buying adventure and it can be a bit trying (esp for the kiddos), but it can be very rewarding in the end.

It's possible that it is a new A. It may have been in the warehouse for a while - though 5 years does seem a wee bit long.

I am surprised at the M&H at Schmitt's. I would not think they would put a grand on their floor with driven and doped pins.

The 1980 A in Bloomington seemed like with a few hundred dollars of minor repairs it might be just fine.

See my comments re. aged new goods on your other thread.

Hidajat, by way of introduction I am shopping for a grand in the Twin Cities area for my son. We looked at the M & H in Bloomington the Friday before you, and the owner certainly is a gracious lady. I didn't see the rib split, although we did find a few sticky keys, some strings rubbing their neightbors as such. I like Laabs, although my son doesn't. We didn't go to Glenwood (only 2 hours? I think three at least fro TC). But, to my point... go to Petit music in Rochester MN. He has a website and a 20's M & H that will blow out ANY new M & H. Just be prepared to part with your money. Good luck.

Hi all,...

Sorry I have not had a chance to reply until today,...

I was out on a business trip back to MN,... at the Mystic Lake Casino! Just me without the family this time,... so I can only look and listen to the sales person play the piano,...

I was back at Jim Laab's and I still like the 'new' Satin Ebony A there and definitely ruled out the Schimmel and Estonia 190 there,...

Deerwood Guy,...
Since I only managed to score $60 at blackjack,... nope,... I have not bought it yet

I also visited Carlson's Piano World and listened to quite a few more pianos,... Young Chang PG-185, Young Chang Pramberger JP-185, 6'1" WM Knabe, Baldwin SF-10, 6'+ Bechstein, Petrof III,... Tone-wise I like Baldwin's rich tone the best out of the bunch even though it's not fully in tune and there are some buzzing noise,... I also liked the JP-185(maybe more for the price ),... that Mason A though,... still at the top!

Monica,...
Thank for the DVD Player advice,... we'll make sure to bring one on our next trip:)
Yes,... we did learn a lot from the trip!

Monster M&H,...
Thanks

bit Wrangler,...
Yeah,... not much very good Chinese food where we're at,... Every family trip whether it's to Minneapolis, Chicago, Omaha, or Kansas City is not complete without some good food
We're definitely enjoying the process,... and trying very hard to resist the urge to settle or to buy into the 'great' deal instead of the piano.

kluurs,...
I found out a bit more about the 'new' A from Cecil at M&H,... it was part of the inventory of a dealer that went out of business,... M&H took it back and sold it to Jim Laab's 3 months ago,... I'm still trying to find out more from Cecil,...

Craigen,...
Thanks,... my camera's USB plug is broken so as soon as my all-in-one memory card reader arrive in the mail I'll post some pics of the 80 M&H A,... I'll post a reply to the other thread after this,...

deadwood53,...
Wow,... great,... have you guys found your piano yet?
Did you guys try the Mason A at Jim Laab's? If yes what do you and your son think?
Thanks for the info on the 20's M&H at Petit,... if you don't mind,... please PM me the asking price,...
I you haven't found your piano yet,... I think it's worth a drive to Glenwood,... Jay is very nice and the piano is in great shape,... even though we don't like the tone,... it's personal preference,... it might just be the right tone for you and your son,... There's a very nice hotel with an indoor waterpark nearby in Alexandria,... too bad it was fully booked the weekend we were there,... it'll be a fun day trip I'll be looking forward to your shopping post!

Regards,

Robert