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I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question and went off on a rant *sheepish grin*.

Tone production is a matter of carefully balancing the dynamic level and color of the notes both horizontally and vertically. It isn't about the tone of one single note out of context, but it is entirely about the tone of each and every note in the context of the big picture.

For example, when I voice a chord I usually want the top note to ring out a bit more, so I make it a tad bit louder by slightly shifting the corresponding finger. On a real piano the slightly increased dynamic level of the note will also make it a tad bit brighter and the combination of the two helps it to sing out.

Now that chord is usually surrounded by other notes, probably chords, so I will want to shape the phrase. For instance, I might start softer than the printed dynamic and gradually get louder and then get softer again. I'll want this shading to be as smooth and continuous as possible. On a real piano I would expect the soft notes to be a bit more mellow and gradually get brighter as I play louder and then get mellow again. My dynamic range is chosen by how soft and how brilliant I want that phrase to be. Usually it is in a pretty narrow range, but sometimes the range can be pretty dramatic.

Neither of these effects are possible on a digital piano because the notes don't gradually get mellower or brighter, there is a sudden jump when the velocity causes the mellower or brighter sample layer to kick in. Otherwise you can get louder and softer but the color of the notes doesn't change until it makes a sudden jump. So, the fine control needed for classical just isn't possible on a digital piano.

Actually, because of the sudden jump in multi-layered sounds I tend to prefer to use single layer voices and select the one that has the correct color for the material I am playing. In rock and pop this is usually more than sufficient.

Another issue related to tone production is the fact that digital pianos are much more forgiving about notes that are played so softly that they wouldn't sound on a real piano. Not only that, on the digital the volume can be turned up so that the dynamic level sounds like it is in the right range. Transfer this technique to a real piano and you are going to have all kinds of notes that didn't sound and the tone is going to be muddy and indistinct.

One last issue related to tone production is pedal control. I constantly use the damper pedal at all sorts of positions. Sometimes I just want to quickly and barely touch the strings with the dampers in order to thin the sound out without stopping it. Other times I want to partially lift the pedal in order to add a touch of "reverb" without losing the clarity and distinctness of the notes. On a digital it doesn't work the same. Not only that, you don't have to pedal like this because with 32 notes of polyphony you just hold the pedal down and the notes drop out fast enough to keep the sound from becoming a total wash. Again, good skills cannot be formed and bad habits are sure to become a problem.

Ryan

Ryan, I read your post and disagree with some of your remarks. The action on my GranTouch really does respond exactly like a grand piano action (which it is). The sensors are optical and do not interfere with the action. The 'problems' I occasionally encounter on my GT are the same 'problems' I encounter on a real action. It responds in every way as a real action ... which it is.

You also keep mentioning 32 note polyphony as a limitation. In order for me to hear the limitation of that (in actual playing), I have to go out of my way to reach that limit and strain my ears to be sure if that low note really dropped out or not. Do you really encounter that 'limitation' in actual playing or is this just an argument you use against electric pianos (much like the 'limitation' of 128 velocity degrees).

I have thousands of hours logged in on my GranTouch and respectively disagree with you. (Also, this is not blind loyalty to a product or to a model, I wish Steinway would offer their action in such a hybrid. I have played hundreds of concerts in the US and a few here as well using acoustic pianos from nine footers to seven footers to the GranTouch. For me, my technique is not diminished at all from playing or practicing on an electric or, in my case, a hybrid piano. As an aside, I heard the Marriage of Figaro in Salzburg a few weeks ago and the 'harpsichord' was a Clavinova. Had I not seen the keyboard ahead of time, I never would have known. I don't think Mozart would have heard the difference as well.)

Also, you use the phrase 'tone production' where I would just use the word 'control'.

Hi Dave,

Again, you have totally missed my point. You may want to read up on how sample based engines are implemented and then reread my posts. Otherwise it is pointless to continue the discussion. I mean, for example the low note doesn't drop out when the 32 note limit is reached. Yamaha digital pianos use an algorithm that drops out inner voices in favor of the low notes.

I guess we will have to leave it as agreeing to disagree. Just so you know, my opinions were formed having spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on digital pianos. I've logged a lot of hours on the Gran Touch. And I stand by my statements. It would be pointless for me to practice my classical repertoire on a digital piano because the results simply would not translate.

Ryan

Ryan, you're probably correct re the bass notes having priority (32 note polyphony) in favor of higher up notes. I had forgotten that.

Do you really encounter the situation where 32 note polyphony is not enough? If there are notes dropping out (32 note limit on my GT1) while I'm playing, I am note aware of it. It's more likely that I am not approaching the 32 note limit.

Re your comment about levels jumping when a new sample layer kicks in - I do not hear anything other than the sound getting slightly louder when I keep playing the same note with slightly more force. I do not hear the various sample layers kicking in.

Had I not known that there were three sample layers on my GT1, I never would have known they existed. Your ears and your level of playing must be on a much higher level than mine.

Yeah, I really did encounter situations where notes were dropping out. I heard it as a thinning of the sound and it taught me to not clean the pedal as much as I should. When I played a grand piano I would have rework my pedalling because the sound would build up into this uncontrollable mess! I was playing the Chopin Etudes and a set of Rachmaninoff Preludes at the time. I also started to get lazy and use a finger technique because I could, and my tone production really suffered due to the lack of fine control over color and dynamic. That was *my* experience and I am very glad to hear that yours has been much more positive!

I admit, my ears are picky - probably too picky these days. I am always listening for keyboards that sound fakey when I suspect the population at large has gotten used to and accepted the sound of sampled pianos. My reaction is always "ew! They used a sampled piano!"

Ryan

I apologize for hijacking your thread here, but I was just wondering how much the GranTouch costs.

I've got a Keyboard right now, but it isn't very good, it isn't nearly sensitive enough to touch, the volume when a key is struck isn't predictable (i.e. I can hit a key softly for almost no sound and I can slam it and sometimes get almost no sound still.) Plus it doesn't have any pedals.

Anyway, I was wondering how much the GT20 normally goes for, I couldn't find any price on Yamaha's page

Yamaha stopped marketing the GranTouch in the US. If you go to Yamaha's web site you'll see other models (more expensive and souped up versions) along with the basic GranTouch and those models are sold in the US. If you can get your hands on a GranTouch 1 or 2, you should pay about $6,000 or so. Don't quote me on this, but that's the ballpark figure.

The souped models which are GranTouch pianos but with more features than you might wish are a bit pricey and it would be worth your while to find a dealer who still has a GT in stock. Perhaps Yamaha itself can help you. I hope this has been some help.

The ballpark price I gave was for the GT1. Try Google's Froogle for prices ...

http://froogle.google.com/

The GT20 goes for $4250.

Very cool, thanks a lot Dave. It is a little pricey(for now), I've found some nice upright acoustic pianos that are cheaper, but I don't know much about the upkeep of an acoustic, I've read a bit and it sounds pretty intense.


Anyway, thank you again.