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#672020 - 02/16/08 08:33 PM P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Good evening from Montreal

This is my first Post and also my first digital piano.

I recently acquired a used P-80. I’ve been practicing my scales when I notice that the G and G# sounded out of tune (left of C1). They sound out of tune but intermittently! What is the problem?
Is this serious? Meaning can it be fixed and how?

Thank you for your time
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Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672021 - 02/16/08 08:51 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
I know it is difficult to describe a sound, but can you tell if they sound sharp, flat, distorted, etc?

Alden
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#672022 - 02/16/08 09:49 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
playliszt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Oh/Fla
If the P-80 has a Reset, try that. Reset's can cure lots of problems.

Someone on this forum who has one (I don't)can tell you if it has a Reset and what buttons to press in case you don't have a manual.

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#672023 - 02/16/08 11:27 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
To describe the “out of tune” sound it is no problem.
I’ll be more specific. When I hit the G or G# the sound is sharper in both cases not distorded. I’ve been hitting it constantly and it varies every time. I tried it on every voices and the same problem occurs. It sounds worst with the « Grand Piano » voice.
BTW the out of tune sound that it makes is always the same if that makes any sense to any of you.

I do have a copy of the manual (in 3 languages) and there is no mention of reset button. I have looked around and I can't see anything

Thanks
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672024 - 02/17/08 12:15 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
To reinitialize the instrument, press and hold the top C while powering on. A reset message will appear in the display for a few seconds. This resets all user controllable parameters to original settings, including ERASING SONG DATA, so make sure you've stored any song data off the instrument before doing the reset. Although tuning data is part of the process, I'm not sure the condition you describe will fall within that reset.

Let us know what happens.

Alden
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#672025 - 02/17/08 02:45 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Alden
Procedure done. “Clr” message appeared for a very short while. Problem still not resolved.
Did the procedure twice actually. BTW I’ve looked twice in the manual and I can’t find the procedure you described anywhere. You know certain things people don’t know!!!

Could it be that the keys in questions need cleaning? They don’t stick they just don’t give the right note.

Michel
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672026 - 02/17/08 04:26 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
playliszt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Oh/Fla
If you have one of those $15 Electronic Metronome/Tuners, use it to see how much frequency deviation you have from the proper frequency for those 2 notes. At Least you will have it quantified.

If you change the temperament setting, does it still stay out-of-tune? If so, sounds like it's imprinted in the software.

I don't think its a cleaning problem since it's digital; it's either on or off, period.

Did this thing get hit by lightning or a nasty voltage surge?

Sorry I can't be more helpful, I'm stumped.

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#672027 - 02/17/08 04:37 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Forgive me, but I am very skeptical about this. The tones in digital pianos are obviously sampled in very carefully, and are uniform pretty much across the brand. I don't even know if it is possible for one to be "out of tune."

I would suggest having a tuner look at it. If an RPT says it's out of tune, I'd be surprised.

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#672028 - 02/17/08 05:32 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
I was afraid the reset might not do the trick. It will undo any user settings, but detune-two-notes isn't a user option.

Can you tell me anything about the onset? Sudden, gradual, both notes went at once, the same on all voices...? Per Playliszt; any unusual electrical or environmental factors?

Alden
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#672029 - 02/17/08 08:22 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Answer to your questions:
- At the present time the problem is limited to both G and G# keys left of the middle C;
- Yes same on all voices but more noticeable on “Grand Piano” maybe just because of the nature of the voice. I also tested all effects, reverb, and touch as well; no change;
- Sudden, gradual, both notes went at once: This P80 is used with one previous owner. Had it for 2 weeks and it dates from 2002 (serial number plate under the piano) Tested all keys when I visited the owner everything seemed to be alright at the time but don’t rely on that because this is my first piano purchase ever. I’m a Newbie at this. You should also keep in mind that this problem is intermittent. When I notice the G going out of tune I started hitting other keys and that is when I notice the other problem with G# key;
- Unusual electrical or environment factors? No, nothing unusual! Don’t you think that if it was the case that whatever causes this problem would also affect all the keys not just the G and G#. But to be safe I checked your hypotheses by changing electrical circuit (alone by itself); still the same problem.

I also checked the presets, all 50 of them and I don’t notice any problem there!

Thank you for your help Alden
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672030 - 02/17/08 09:13 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
PM sent
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#672031 - 02/17/08 09:46 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Alden
Test done as directed. Result: I got a "PAS" on all 3

Should I contact a Yamaha dealer?

Michel
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672032 - 02/17/08 11:56 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Adamas,

It's time to see the doctor. That wasn't the whole test battery, just a suspicion. But if its intermittent it may not have mattered.

It would be interesting to see what exactly is going on with the tuning by using one of the tuning software apps - I use Kutsura Piano Tuner
for Mac - but that's not necessarily going to tell us what's causing it either.

Good Luck, & let us know.

Alden
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#672033 - 02/18/08 07:34 AM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
gmm1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1674
Loc: Spokane WA
Here's a small free tuner that was made for guitar but works with any tone. All you need is a computer and a mic.

At least you will know exactly what tone is being produced.

I'm with J.Mark on this. Perhaps something is "adding" to the tone from the environment. Can you re-create it with headphones?

Anyway, this program will tell you exactly what freq is being generated.

http://nch.com.au/tuner/index.html
_________________________
"There is nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself." Johann Sebastian Bach/Gyro

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#672034 - 02/18/08 09:09 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Thanks for the advice gmm1
I downloaded the program for the tuner last night and spent several hours checking every note ………..
What a tedious piece of work that was!
I found some info about the situation. G2 and G2# are the problem keys like I already mentioned. The tuner says that G2 & G2# should be in the range of G2=195.98 and G2#=207.63 respectively. Well what I get in actual facts is G2 = 391.69 & G2# = 415.26. And guess what those frequencies are actually the one that I measured for G3 & G3# one octave higher exactly. Strange don’t you think???

Today I called some people in the music industry and I was referred to a reputable KB tech. I spoke to him on the phone and described the problem. I have an appointment tomorrow but he told me that there is a 1½ week wait at least.

Story to follow. It sounds like a real soap


Michel
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672035 - 02/18/08 09:39 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
Every note is a combination of its fundamental frequency and harmonics. It may be that you have lost the fundamental for those notes, but it could equally be that the tuner is set to listen to those notes in that octave, and that the pitch is normal. Do the notes sound an octave higher than they should be? That should be quite apparent. If they do not, then the problem may not be that they are out of tune.
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Semipro Tech

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#672036 - 02/18/08 10:30 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Yes they do sound higher then they should be.
Depending on how I hit the key and where I get the fundamental or the harmonic.
I know now that it’s not out of tune (bad choice of word at the beginning; I’m a guitar player so for me anything that doesn’t sound right is out of tune) but how the hell can you end up with splitting the fundamental and the harmonic that is the question?!

Michel
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672037 - 02/18/08 11:42 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
Do they sound exactly like the note an octave higher, or something similar, yet different? I am trying to determine whether there is something causing the octave of the sample to be wrong, or if there is something in the playback that is cutting out the fundamental. The latter might be a problem with the audio amplification, rather than the piano itself.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#672038 - 02/19/08 10:24 AM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
BDB
The intermittent problem sounds like I’m only getting the harmonic. The fundamental is cut out. Other time it plays fine.
The internal audio amplification would be a other possibility. I did not think of that one. Good point! I’ve been using the RCA connectors direct into the IN of my M-Audio 24/96 and amplifying it through a home HiFi system. As I mention before the problem happens even if I’m using my headphones. But still the problem is with only 2 keys. Like you mentioned the problem reside in what is causing the harmonic and the fundamental to be split. Can it be a mechanical problem? I will mention this to the tech when I meet with him this afternoon.

Thanks
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672039 - 02/19/08 07:12 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Adamas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Stop the press the problem is fixe!!!!

This morning the piano was in its transport bag (I bought one yesterday just to take it to see the “doctor”) and ready to go out the door when I said to myself “Lets take it out one last time and check it again just on the kitchen table”. So I did. In the meantime I launch a call to M-Audio tech support just to cover all bases. The M-Audio tech mention in passing that there might be a Local Control ON/OFF on the KB. I hit the mother load….Bingo!

Reminder of connection set-up:
Sound card: M-Audio 24/96 Delta Series
P-80 RCA L/R out  M-Audio L/R in  M-Audio L/R out  PA L/R in
P-80 Midi I/O  M-Audio O/I (15 foot cables)

Having plug in booth midi cables and being on “Local ON” it was creating a Midi feedback loop that was interfering with the Piano audio. Just by unplugging one of the Midi cable on the P-80 the problem was solved. But the right way to do it is to go in the Function menu (F8Y). I got that from talking to the tech doctor.

I would like to thank every one that tried to help specially Alden.

Michel…….BTW this piano sounds Great!
_________________________
Music is the DRUG of "The People"

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#672040 - 02/19/08 10:48 PM Re: P-80 out of tune: Some Key problems?!?
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Congratulations grasshopper!

This was literally "outside the box".

Note to self: next time, blame ancillary gear...

Cheers,
Alden
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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