Hi,

I'm looking for a sub-$250 electronic keyboard for my sister and am wondering about the terms "touch sensitive keys" and "piano-style keys." I've searched this site and others but haven't found any solid answers-- I'd appreciate any insight on this.

More specifically, I'm wondering if the keys on low-end Yamaha or Casio keyboards are comparable, or if one if generally considered better than the other.

A few models I'm considering:

1. Yamaha YPG 225
2. Yamaha YPT 400AD
3. Casio CTK 900
4. Casio WK 200

I realize that you get what you pay for with keyboards in this price range, but this is what the budget allows right now.

Thanks for any feedback.

I think you'll have to try the keyboards and see if you can tell a difference, so much depends on your sister's experience and expectations whether one brand may be better than another for her specific use.

You will want to weigh the ways in which these keyboards differ - such as in the number of keys, or the ease of connectivity to a computer and then consider how important these features are for your sister's use. For example, the Casio WK 200 is said to have connectivity to an IPod. On the other hand, there are some users who complain about connecting Yamaha boards to their computers.

If you Google user reviews of each of these boards, that might also help you sort it out.

To clear up your terminology:
Touch Sensitive Keys = the harder you hit the key, the louder the sound. There are a couple variations on this. The primary method is "Velocity Sensitive", where the quicker the key is pressed the louder the sound. Some newer keyboards will also sense the strike force, and use that value also.

Piano style keys = When you hit a key on a real piano, the key has a certain amount of resistance. Also, since you have the weight of the hammer mechanism, you also have inertia. So it takes a bit more than a stiffer spring to simulate an actual piano key. More expensive keyboards put weights in the keys to help simulate this inertia, but this also causes the keyboard to weigh a bit more. Newer versions actually have a hammer mechanism in the keys to simulate this effect, which reduces weight. You won't find any of these features in a keyboard that is less than $400 - $500. I think you can get semi-weighted keys in the $300 keyboards, though.
Also, make sure the key spacing is the same as a piano (6.5 inches per octave I think).

No one has listened to me yet, but I'll try again...

Weighted key electronic pianos start at $400. Weighted keys are necessary for your fingers to control the piano style sounds that your electronic keyboard makes. Without weighted keys, the piano sounds will not come out right because your pinky and thumb hit light keys very differently and there is no weight to make them come out the same.

I don't blame you for not wanting to spend $400 but still wanting an electronic piano. There is nothing wrong with that. So I highly recommend you spend as LITTLE as possible on an unweighted piano. Buy the cheapest used or new 61 key piano you can find, hopefully for $50 used or $125 new. Any more is a waste that you could use to save for a weighted key piano. Another option is to find a used weighted key piano or a real piano from the start, but $400 used weighted key pianos are tough to find and while real pianos can be found for $100 or free, they require moving and maintenance which would put them over $400.

So just buy a $100 unweighted piano or bite the bullet and get a $400+ weighted key model.

Good luck and enjoy.

One more thing -- number of keys.
A 49-key keyboard will let you play 2 C's below middle C up to 2 C's above middle C (two lines below the bottom clef through two lines above the top clef). A 61-key will give you one more octave higher or one octave lower, unless it splits the extra keys among the top and bottom octave. My old Yamaha just gives the one octave higher, so I still can't play Moonlight Sonata on it.

Anything less than a full 88-key keyboard will limit you at some point in time (although a 73-key keyboard will get you a bit further).

Thank you very, very much for all the comments and suggestions. There's definitely a lot to think about here and since I still have a couple of weeks before buying I'll continue to research.

Guest1013, good advice on trying out the keyboards. Not sure how many she'll be able to test drive, as she's living in a rather remote area, but we'll see. Connectivity is not an issue, she's just looking for something decent to practice on. Thanks.

derekp, I appreciate the clarification on the terminology. I've tried a few keyboards and couldn't tell the difference between touch-sensitive and piano-style, but sometimes I'm not so good at discerning such things. Neither felt close to any piano I've ever fiddled around with, but that's to be expected. As for number of keys, we're thinking 76 seems about right.

RayMetz100,

Now you're complicating matters ) Thanks for your sharing your insight. I was hoping that something like the WK200 was a decent compromise-- at least slightly better than the $100 ones, but maybe not. More to think about.

The reviews on Amazon and other sites are very good for the first 3 keyboards on my list:

1. Yamaha YPG 225
2. Yamaha YPT 400AD
3. Casio CTK 900

The Casio WK200 is available at Costco for $176 (stand and adaptor included). I believe it's a new model so I can't find any reviews on it. But it's closer to my real price range and if it's comparable to the others it's an attractive choice.

I think I'm going to look into the weighted key models- maybe I can get lucky and find a deal somewhere.

Also, I'm wondering if these keyboards generally come with headphone jacks, so the rest of the household isn't subjected to endless practice sessions?

If anyone has a recommendation on a weighted key model, I'd appreciate that also.

Cheers to all.

SteveH1122, you haven't said much about the level of experience or type of music, or whether batteries/portability are high priorities.

If she is used to an acoustic piano, I would agree with RayMetz100 about saving up for weighted keys and just going with the least expensive one in the meantime. None of the models you mentioned have weighted keys, if I recall correctly.

Piano-Style keys may not necessarily mean they're weighted, just bigger and more block-shaped like a regular piano's. If they're weighted they will advertise it. But I have seen some Yamaha's with 88 piano-style non-weighted keys before.

Trust me - you'll be able to tell weighted keys right away - they do behave like real piano keys, instead of just acting like your computer keyboard keys. There's a certain inertia to them and they don't come right back up. They also feel heavy.

Don't waste your money on an expensive - unweighted digital. Like somebody already suggested, if you have to get one, don't spend more than $50 on an unweighted SYNTH. Much better to save your money and buy the cheapest DIGITAL PIANO with WEIGHTED KEYS. Casio Privia's can be head for less than $400, and that's including a wooden stand (look into Casio PX110 - they're out of production so retailers are pushing them cheap - but they're great product for the price).

Thanks all for staying with this thread.

guest1013,

I appreciate the help. She's basically a beginner, though she took lessons for about 6 months about ten years ago. She's into standards, pop and classical. Batteries/portability is not an issue.

LesCharles73,

Thanks for the info on piano-style keys. These unweighted keyboards are starting to sound less and less attractive.

Eternal,

Now I'm really starting to away from these $200-$250 models and considering something weighted. Thanks for the suggestions, I'm going to look around.

If you have a BestBuy near you, they are having a clearance on their Casio Privia px-110 keyboards (they are being replaced by the px-120). Those have weighted hammer-action keys. The one by me had the px-110's for around $380, including stand and 3-pedal unit (the stand goes for around $100 by itself).
However, I decided to go for the px-200 at guitarcenter for about $100 more (even though it didn't include the stand). When it comes in, I'll comment on it.

Also, don't be fooled by an expensive unweighted keyboard like the Yamaha NP30. They advertise it as "Graded Soft Touch" which means that the keys on the lower part of the keyboard feel heavier than the keys on the higher part. But it's not really the weight or resistance of the keys that counts. Weighted keys keep moving.

It's like the difference between swinging a baseball bat and a plastic kids bat. Once it's in motion, a weighted key will stay in motion. Expensive keyboards like the NP30 are like moving the plastic bat across water or sand. Although they offer more resistance than nothing, the motion (and sound) still stops immediatly after you stop. It won't hold any motion on it's own.

Real pianos have a real hammer at the end of a stick for each key and once your finger puts that hammer in motion, you can let off the key and the hammer keeps going. Weighted keyboards attempt to duplicate the weight on your finger and the sound. In many cases, they do this by gluing real weights under each key so that it stays in motion if you start fast, then let off half way down.

But don't feel bad if you can't afford a weighted model. they are quite a bit more expensive. My main point was to forget the reviews of those models you listed and go to a pawnshop or second-hand store and buy a $75 one. Nothing wrong with that. I just hate to see people waste $250 on an unweighted toy that will never sound or feel like a real piano.

Also, the bench and sustain pedal are just as important as weighted keys. If money is tight, you may want to take care of those before weighted keys. You might want a music stand too. (although the current lessons I take recommend against sheet music for beginners, but that's a different argument)

I have to agree with what I've read here.

There is some difference in sound from cheap keyboard to cheap keyboard. For complete beginners who have no idea if they will continue, I suggest "go low".

Get something very cheap, just make sure it is "touch sensitive", and that it has a place to plug in a sustain pedal.

Almost all cheap keyboards do that now.

But don't go in the middle. 76 key keyboards are a waste. The very idea that Yamaha is advertizing a keyboard that basically has nothing but springs as a "semi-weighted" keyboard is outrageous, and the missing keys will be almost as annoying as those on a 61 key keyboard.

The reason the really cheap ones can be good is that if a player gets serious, you have time to shop. Do you want to invest some money in a good weighted keyboard?

Or get an accoustic instrument? Your first keyboard should give you time to make such decisions!

I'm so glad I found this site-- I was this close to dropping $200+ on an unweighted model.

derekp,

I'll run over to Best Buy and check out the PX110. I'm leaning this way now, thanks for the help. I also read your other post on the Casio Privia series and I hope the 200 works out for you.

RayMetz100,

Great info, thanks. I'm either going to go cheap/used or get something weighted. My sister is serious about this, she plays guitar and violin and has always wanted to go back to piano, but life happens and things get put on hold. Right now things are tight for us both but I agree about not wasting money on a toy.

Gary D, the more I think about it the more I want to invest in a quality weighted keyboard. I was hoping that these lower/mid-range unweighted boards were decent but it sounds like they're rather poor substitutes. Your comments are appreciated.

There are unweighted keyboards that run over $1000, but they are mainly for these reasons:

Music production (think computer in a keyboard package) like the Yamaha Tyros

synth performance (program neato synth sounds and auto arpeggios months earlier and control their timing with the unweighted keys)

The above two also have after touch which lets you hold down the key on a trumpet sound for instance and wiggle it to make the trumpet sound more realistic by making it go soft to loud on the same note, or bending the pitch some.

organ sounds like the Hammond B3 organ for Jazz or a church organ don't require weighted piano momentum because the sound is meant to be a consistant volume and stop abruptly when the key is let off. the same volume for every key allows the instrument to break through the band or chior that those instruments play with.

But even at $1000+, those three categories do a poor job of solo piano practice and performance like a piano student would want. A $100 used real piano or the cheapest weighted digital would be better for a student than any of the fancy models above and most owners of those instruments learned on a real piano or have good access to real pianos or quality weighted pianos.

But if you're goint to spend two months getting a weighted one, just borrow or find something cheap used in the meantime. There is a pawnshop in the next city north of me that has about 15 keyboards for sale. All unweighted with prices from $59 to $189. I bet they would take offers of $50 to $75 for many of them.

I borrowed my first piano from my sister. It was a 76 key $300 Casio from Costco. Now that I'm used to my weighted keyboard, playing hers at her house feels like a toy and sounds aweful. Not just the sound, but my fingers playing it sound really bad. I'm really glad I borrowed it for a couple months to get started though and I actually bought another $20 unweighted keyboard since then and plan to take it to work eventually. Cheapo toy keyboards do have their place so don't hesitate to get one if it's right for you at the moment. There is lots of time to upgrade, plus you get the pleasure of trying out something new twice.

RayMetz100,

Thanks for the additional advice and information. So much to learn about here, and I think I understand what you're saying about the value of a weighted keyboard.

Do you think it's harder to learn on an unweighted model? What was the transition like for you when you went from the unweighted to weighted?

By the way, nice job on the songs on your website. And wow-- what a view out your window!

The transition is very noticable, but you get used to it in a couple days and in less than a week, you'll wonder how you were ever satisfied with unweighted keys.

I don't think it's harder to learn on an unweighted model. It's hard to learn while you don't have anything because you're saving for a nice one though.

It's about like someone saving for a $15,000 Harley Davidson for 20 years, but not riding a $1,000 japanese bike in the meantime. If you can get the Harley while you're young, go for it. But don't wait to ride just because you can't afford the Harley now. Buy what you can and start enjoying now. That way you'd have 20 years of fun even if you never saved $15,000.

There will always be more expensive and better pianos to dream about. In my opinion guys playing their $100 keyboard are much better off than people who shop and wait. Unless the goal is shopping. In that case, try not to buy anything so you can extend your fun shopping and research time.

I like your philosophy. Putting things off and waiting for a day that may never come has never made sense to me either.

Thanks for the info on transitioning between unweigthed and weighted. It looks like I may get an unweighted model for now with an eye on getting a weighted version down the road.

I appreciate all your help.

Most of my students start on basic 61 key keyboards. These cheap keyboards have opened the door for an incredible number of people. Their parents don't have to invest much money, so they are much more likely to try piano lessons.

Of course the "limp" action is a potential problem, but I have also found that people make a fairly easy transition to a weighted keyboard or "real piano" rather quickly. For one thing, as students progress, they compare what they are playing at home with what they play on in lessons or in other places, and they also run out of keys. (Fuer Elise has an E above high C, and an A below low C, neither of which exists on a 61 key keyboard. And while 76 seems better, there too you will inevitably play something that is outside that range too.)

So the limitations of an inexpensive "entry" instrument tend to take care of themselves in time.

you have to consider if it's worth it to buy a cheap keyboard now and replace it after 6 months by a DP. say, you spent $200 now, and then after 6 months, you cannot bear that keyboard any longer, and decide to just spend $500 for a DP. so, in less than 1 year you'd be spending $700 anyway. btw, for a beginner learning notes, cheap keyboard may not be a problem, but down the road, you'd regret not to start on a DP because no-weight keyboard will not help you developing piano techniques which is closely associated with key weight, and you just have re-learn the techniques once you got your DP.

so, which is worth it: buy a DP now for $500 (such as a Casio PX120, and start learning proper techniques now) or buy a keyboard ($200) + upgrade to DP ($500) in few months. think about it!

There's also a danger of simply getting discouraged from DP because of lack of weight/realism. I used to have a cheap Casio synth way back from the 80's, and it gathered dust on a shelf since I was a kid. I didn't start playing piano until I bought my first Privia. The improvement in sound, and weight really made a difference - and the added realism motivated me to play.

Just please keep in mind that the cheap DPs are a lot better today. I used to have to warn people about cheap pianos with "organ touch", meaning absolutely no touch sensitivity.

Anyone who plays piano well will be annoyed by the light spring action on cheap keyboards, but I'd still rather complete beginners start on a cheap keyboard rather than pick something more expensive that is going to cause a whole different set of problems.

For instance, I just read this:

PX-110 88-Key Privia Digital Piano

"The keyboard does come with a wonky little pad pedal. No other brand of sustain pedal will work with it, so don't mix them up."

Now, this MAY not be true, but it if is, it's a problem, because those little flat pedals are highly annoying. They just don't feel right.

Another issue is the matter of how many keys you can play, holding the sustain pedal down, until the keyboard starts to "clear some away".

Keyboards like to talk about "32 note polyphony". What they don't tell you is that even if you can switch off what they call "stereo-mode", you probably won't want to do it because it sounds terrible. So those 32 notes really mean 16 per channel, and if you play something advanced, you can run out of notes very fast. A good check is to play a glissando and see if notes clip.

You can't really do that until you reach "128", which of course really means 64. Since there are 52 white notes, your are finally safe most of the time.

Finally, on many and perhaps most DPs the sustain pedal does not work realisitically.

You should be able to strike an octave in the bass and "catch" it on the pedal before leaping right to another chord, for instance. On a grand, if you depress the sustain pedal s few milliseconds after you've released a note, you will still catch it. On some DPs, if you depress the pedal even a couple milliseconds late, you get nothing.

There are a lot of things like that. And that's precisely why I recommend to people who do not have a lot of money to start "low", because when they spend more money for what they think is a good DP, later they are disappointed.

The pedal that comes with PX110 moves around a lot, but anyone buying a DP should also buy a stand for it. The one for PX110 comes with 3 built in pedals.

Granted - I'm not an advanced player myself, but 16 stereo polyphony has never bothered me at all, back when I was using Privia's built in sound.

In my opinion getting the cheapest weighted DP is the best option. Spend the savings on upgrading your PC, and software pianos like Ivory.