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#675362 - 12/21/07 07:20 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Isn't that the whole problem, disabling sustain resonance?
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#675363 - 12/21/07 09:43 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
Originally posted by mahlzeit:
Isn't that the whole problem, disabling sustain resonance? [/b]
Exactly. Rented - what results are you getting with the sustain enabled?

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#675364 - 12/21/07 11:06 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Hmmm, I don't think sustain resonance should be the problem. Sustain resonance, also called sympathetic resonance, should really just affect how much the other strings resonate when the pedal is depressed.

Quickly releasing and depressing the pedal should just dampen the "main" strings a bit, and I would assume that the sympathetic resonances of the other strings should completely die (or near enough anyway).

For those with stringed instruments like a guitar, this can be demonstrated quite readily by plucking a string and then, as quickly as you can, tap the string with your finger. The string will continue to resonate. And the felt damper on a piano would have much less dampening effect than your finger.

Anyway, I tried it with sustain resonance at default, and the effect is an even stranger sound. The main strings still die out completely, but the sympathetic resonances continue, which sounds very unnatural.

While Pianoteq is not perfect, it is in these little details and nuances where it really shines. It behaves just as I would expect it too.

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#675365 - 12/21/07 11:17 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
On sampled virtual pianos (like Akoustik), there are two sets of samples: "normal" samples and samples with "sustain resonance". If the damper pedal is pressed while a tone is playing, the regular samples are crossfaded to the sustain resonance samples. Which is really just a trick.

Pianoteq doesn't use samples, and therefore doesn't need to resort to such tricks.
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#675366 - 12/21/07 04:14 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Rented: THANK YOU. At least I know I'm not crazy. Also, your explanation of why this is not a sustain resonance problem (and what happens when you turn on sustain resonance) is exactly right.

For those that asked what settings I'm using, I've tried every setting possible, from simply loading up a clean install and clicking the Concert D (changing no settings) to trying every preset and further tweaking every dial and slider in the program.

Mateusz did not have this problem. However, he is using the 16 bit samples and up to this point I have only tried the 24 bit samples. So my project later today is to try the 16 bit samples. I would have done it a couple of days ago but I've already spent HOURS trying to diagnose the problem this week and I'm behind on my actual work.

One week has past with no response from Native Instruments support.

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#675367 - 12/22/07 07:35 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Iowa
"One week has past with no response from Native Instruments support."

WingFat, they are very difficult to get a response from and their forum is not helpful. Therefore,I was glad to see some discussion in this forum.

However, for the current price of AP I think it is a great program!! They did continue sending me new CD's (3 sets of them) until I got a working install file. So they do respond eventually.

I hope your 16 bit samples test provides the results you want.

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#675368 - 12/22/07 08:08 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Sadly no luck with the 16-bit Akoustik Piano samples. I was hoping that was the cure but nope. I have exhausted every option I can try on my own; my only hope at this point (unless someone here comes up with a new idea for me to try) is for Native Instruments to someday respond to my support request.

Ivory is a different story. I loaded it up today and it works perfectly! I've only played on it for about 20 minutes but my initial impression is that it is superb. The Steinway had great sensitivity on a jazz ballad, and the the Bosendorfer was nice and even on an up-tempo ragtime tune. The Yamaha sounded a little harsh, but I haven't gotten into tweaking the settings yet. The important thing is that there are no sustain pedal glitches like there are with Akoustik Piano.

I'm going to shelve Akoustik Piano for the time being. All this goofing around with trying to get it running right has put me behind on a project, but when that's done my plan is to take another stab at getting it working. One of the reasons I bought it was because it had an upright piano, and I would really love to have that available and working right.

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#675369 - 12/23/07 06:26 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
For those that are interested, I have tweaked my MIDI test a little. I removed one test and held the sustain a little longer on the single-note test.

The new MIDI file is here:
http://www.box.net/shared/5enjib7cw0

There are three tests. The first four notes are simply staccato notes with no sustain to get an idea of the sound of the piano. The second set of four notes are staccato notes with the sustain pedal pressed a fraction of a second after the note is released. The third test is a chord struck with the sustain pedal pressed, then the sustain is released and pressed again within a fraction of a second. The release/press is repeated a few times.

This is what it should sound like. I rendered this using Synthogy Ivory; however, I get similar results from both my digital pianos (a Kurzweil and a Kawai), and when I simulate this test on my acoustic upright piano:
http://www.box.net/shared/0h9x2fncw4

These are the results I'm getting from Akoustik Piano with the new test:
http://www.box.net/shared/ow17waeg48

Notice how the second group of four notes simply shut off after the sustain is pressed. Also notice how the chord stops sounding after the pedal is released/pressed in the third test. Note that I turned off sustain resonance and reverb in the above test to help illustrate the problem.

I submitted another request to Native Instruments; hopefully they'll respond to this second request.

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#675370 - 12/23/07 06:53 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Once again, my Akoustik with sustain resonance TURNED OFF behaves just like Ivory in your example. The results you are getting with Akoustik is definitely not normal. The notes cut off instantly, which should never happen... I will try to analyse the MIDI file with some MIDI editor to find something that may cause that behavior.
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Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675371 - 12/24/07 06:05 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
The notes cut off instantly, which should never happen...
There is an option for this in most samplers: "Note release time". If this is set to 0, notes should cut off instantly.
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#675372 - 12/24/07 07:35 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Yeah, sorry for the shortcut - what I meant was, that not when the sustain is pressed just afterwards!

I have tried to reproduce Wing's problem quite patiently. I have tried virtually every setting available on the Akoustik Piano.

Sustain Reso to 0, Release Reso to Disable, Key/Pedal Reso both to 0, reverb completely disabled (no environment selected, and amount to 0).

Then voice count, from 15 up to 150, each with ECO mode and without ECO mode.

I have tried both Concert Grand Production and Steingraeber Wunderkind presets I use most. Of course, the preset with Olivier overtones works fine too.

I then tried to change sound settings. I have disabled ASIO and chosen DirectSound, and then Multimedia. The latency was sky-high, but the problem still didn't occur. The second group of notes sustain nicely.

Now I'm helpless and completely lost. I don't know what to change more to find out the behaviour Wing's talking about.

I hope NI will answer through their Support System.


Regards!
M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675373 - 12/24/07 04:25 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Mateusz: I'm lost too. Another poster here has the same issue so at least I know I'm not alone.

Matthijs: The release setting you're talking about would apply regardless of whether the sustain was pressed or not, so I don't think it's applicable in this situation.

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#675374 - 12/24/07 05:58 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Taibu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Estonia
Hey, have you tried getting the latest drivers for your sound card? Some cards have also different drivers available. ASIO4All is also an option. I think I'd try reinstalling drivers, maybe something is broken in there.

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#675375 - 01/08/08 09:39 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
synthman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 55
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Hi, I get the same result on my system, that is I get the sudden cutoff when the pedal is quickly released and pressed again using Akoustik Piano. This happens on all of the presets, even the ones with resonances.

I also have Pianoteq and it doesn't behave this way. The sound in Pianoteq drops a little bit when the pedal is briefly released.

So, I would say there is a bug with Akoustik, or at least poor modeling. I also think that the soft pedal is poorly done in Akoustik, as it has very little effect, while in Pianoteq the soft pedal is very nice.

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#675376 - 03/03/08 03:08 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Transcriber Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 4
I experience the same undesirable pedal behavior then Wing Fat. I contacted the NI support. It didn't clarify much, but they said that users of their Kontakt sampler have scripts available by Olivier Frappier that are not available with Akoustik Piano standalone. But this does not explain why Matis does not have the pedal error.

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#2118725 - 07/16/13 07:51 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request [Re: Wing Fat]
oliverluengo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 3
Dear friends, I have installed AP and inmediatelly noticed the same pedal and sustain problems with the Decay fractions of seconds after one play chords. I was getting crazy trying to figured out this problem but now I know i´m not the only one. My english is not good enought so I understand this problem is about a bug and there is not solution yet it`s that correct?

Thanks.

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#2120154 - 07/19/13 12:25 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request [Re: Wing Fat]
oliverluengo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 3
Hello friends, I have to tell you, the pedal sustain problem was resolved. Yesterday I was using another free digital pianos as DSK Akoustik KeyZ and others, and I was really sad because the sound quality was not like Native Instrument's Akoustic Piano, so I opened again the VTS in Cubase 5 and suddendly I was surprised because the sustain pedal works perfect, sorry because I can tell exactly what happened and I'm not sure what I have done. I use a yamaha P-95 as controller and it have 3 different touch sensitive's levels but it have not buttons to select this levels so I must to press a combination of keys and buttons like metronome, C7 Key and volume to make changes, so I think maybe the controller was sending a wrong midi information refering its own touch sensitive signal that was crashing with the Akoustic vts sustain pedal. Now is working amazing without any problems and the sound is amazing, outstanding. Maybe you must search all the midi signals your controller is sending or a wrong midi signal or datum hidden in your session that makes the sustain reduce the sustain's resonance and behaves erroneously.

King Regards

Oliver

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#2120158 - 07/19/13 12:38 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request [Re: Wing Fat]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 492
oliver

you know you're responding to an over 5 year old thread

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#2120765 - 07/20/13 10:23 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request [Re: Wing Fat]
oliverluengo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 3
Hahahahaha sorry I didn't whatch the date. Anyway why nobody gave a solution?

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#2121250 - 07/21/13 09:03 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request [Re: Wing Fat]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 492
I don't think anybody is too concerned about solving problems with it.
The good pianos are others, like D and Ivory II and...........

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