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#675332 - 12/17/07 06:55 AM Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
I just loaded up Akoustik Piano this weekend and I have a serious problem with it. I posted the details in the NI forum, but basically the problem is the way the sustain pedal interacts with the notes.

I've come up with a few tests to illustrate the problem. One test works like this: Hold down the sustain pedal, then play a chord loudly and staccato (low notes work best). Of course the chord will continue to play because the sustain pedal is down. Now very quickly (I mean a fraction of a second) release then depress the sustain pedal again. On a real piano the notes should still be sounding, because the strings don't suddenly cease to vibrate the instant the dampers touch them. The volume of the sound will be less because the dampers contacted the strings (how much less depends on how long pedal was let out for), but you should still hear the chord. However, with Akoustik Piano when you do this test the notes immediately stop sounding the instant you let off the sustain pedal. The only sound left is a faint "sustain resonance." Turn that setting down and you'll hear nothing at all.

I'm not having any other problems with Akoustik Piano, it otherwise runs fine on my system. I did upgrade to the latest version.

I have created a short MIDI file that recreates the problem. I'm wondering if there's anyone out there with Akoustik Piano that wouldn't mind playing my MIDI file and either sending me an MP3 of the results or simply telling me what happened. If someone would be willing to do this please send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll send the MIDI file. This would allow me to rule out a problem with my system.

I'm also considering purchasing Synthogy Ivory, as well as the Galaxy II piano collection, and if someone that owns either of these would be willing to try my test MIDI file I would really appreciate it. I believe Galaxy II uses the same engine that Akoustik Piano does, so I'm concerned about it having the same issue.

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#675333 - 12/17/07 09:29 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
I'm pretty sure Ivory does that as well - I'll double check when I get back from work and post again in this thread. It is pretty annoying, because in order to get smooth play, you need to release the pedal after you strike the first note on a new measure.

You can send me the MIDI file if you want (best thing to do would be if you just posted it on Box.com, so that anyone can just download it).

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#675334 - 12/17/07 11:48 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I have a regular digital piano and I
tried this test on it and the result is
the same as you describe with your software
piano. So this is apparently not a problem,
and the software functions like a regular
digital piano, which in turn is like an
acoustic piano, so your software is like
an acoustic piano, for all practical
purposes.

I've never noticed this effect before, and
I've been playing digitals since 1989.
I regularly work on the most difficult
classical repertoire on the digital, and
on those occasions when I get to play
an acoustic, there's no problem transfering
everything practiced on the digital to
the acoustic. So this effect is apparently
not a problem. I think the trouble
with a test like this is that it is
a very artificial situation that never
really arises in actual piano playing--
that's why the designers didn't bother
to program it into digital pianos and
virtual pianos.

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#675335 - 12/17/07 12:01 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Actually, I think Pianoteq supports this kind of damper behavior. So does my Yamaha CP33.
_________________________
No idea what chords you are playing? Reverse Chord Finder Pro will tell you!

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#675336 - 12/17/07 02:40 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Hello there!

I've just tried that test with Akoustik Piano.

When I play a chord with sustain pedal on, and then for a short second I lift my foot and put in on the pedal again, the sound diminish only slightly.

It certainly works with Steinway with oliver overtones, can't check with others right now though.

So I guess there is no problem with what you are describing?

The mp3 demonstrating is here:

http://private.maticomp.net/akoustik.mp3


Mateusz
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675337 - 12/17/07 03:11 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Maybe there is a difference between pedals that just act like switches and those that have a continuous range of values (i.e. those that can do half-damper).
_________________________
No idea what chords you are playing? Reverse Chord Finder Pro will tell you!

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#675338 - 12/17/07 04:11 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Gryo: I have made my living as a professional pianist for 20 years and I know how a real piano behaves and what's happening in Akoustik Piano is not normal. Quick pedal movements are not an "artificial situation," particularly on something like a jazz ballad where I move the sustain pedal constantly. I currently own two digitals and have used Gigastudio in the past and I have never encountered this behavior before.

Mati: Thanks for the help. I got a response in the Akoutik Piano forum and it sounds like Olivier Frappier has created a workaround for this problem. If you're using one of his modifications that may be why you don't have the issue. I would be interested to hear what you're getting in one of the other pianos without using a custom installation.

I'm still hoping someone would be willing to try my test MIDI file (it's only about 30 seconds long) on a standard Akoutik Piano install and particularly with Ivory. I was interested in the Galaxy II pianos, but someone in their forum posted having the exact same problem I posted having with Akoustik Piano, so I have to think it's an issue with the software engine that's running these two programs.

I appreciate everyone's responses. Native Instruments has not yet responded to the support request I submitted, so the assistance here is very much appreciated.

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#675339 - 12/17/07 06:31 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Hi,

Plase, send me your MIDI to mati@maticomp.net, I will make you a recording using all four pianos + the one with "overtones by Oliver", so you can compare.

And for the custom instalation - it's not custom at all! Quoting the readme file from the 1.1 update:

Version 1.1
- Repedalling is now supported
- The "ConcertGrand with Overtones by Olivier" was enhanced with
additional scripts by Olivier Frappier; play keys very softly to
only trigger overtones via another key e.g. an octave below!

And I'm usting the preset by Olivier, which has a great sympathetic response and repedalling capabilities. Repedalling should work with other pianos too, theoretically.

See there:
http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=ap11


Best regadrs,
Mateusz
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675340 - 12/17/07 07:20 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Mateusz: I sent you the MIDI file. Thanks for the help.

I did read on their site about the repedalling. I have tried the latest version (actually I tried a couple of them) but none of them makes a difference. I haven't ruled out a problem with my particular setup, although Akoustik Piano otherwise runs perfectly normally.

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#675341 - 12/17/07 08:10 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
Got your MIDI files. Here's the result using default settings on Ivory:

http://www.box.net/shared/2k2dzvo318

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#675342 - 12/17/07 10:13 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Eternal: Thank you! Ivory performs exactly as I would expect a real piano to. That's good news.

For those that are interested, here is what the original MIDI file does:

There are four sections. The first section is not really a test, it's simply four staccato notes with no pedal just to get an idea of what the notes sound like. The second section is four staccato notes with the sustain pedal depressed immediately after the note is released (the note should sustain with little or no loss of volume). The third section is a staccato note played four times, each time the pedal is depressed a progressively longer period of time after the note is released (the note should sustain with progressively increasing loss of volume). The fourth test is holding a chord with sustain, then quickly releasing and reapplying the sustain pedal (the chord should sustain with some loss of volume). This is repeated on the sustained chord so the volume should "step" down each time it happens.

Later on tonight I will post a version with Akoustik Piano for comparison (I need to reinstall it after several reloads trying various older versions to see if they fixed the problem--they did not).

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#675343 - 12/17/07 11:27 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
That's certainly good to know WingFat.

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#675344 - 12/18/07 06:28 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
I created a wav file directly from my MIDI test file using the recorder in Akoustik Piano. I used the default settings for the "Concert Grand." To help illustrate the problem I turned off reverb and sustain resonance. Here is the link to the file for anyone that wants to listen to it:
http://www.box.net/shared/471h3iz2k2
Read my above post to know what's happening with this test. Most telling are the second group of notes which just shut off the moment the sustain pedal is depressed.

Here is the MIDI file for anyone that wants to try this test yourself:
http://www.box.net/shared/7idakrog56

Eternal: It would be best if you started a new thread regarding your pedal questions so this one doesn't go off topic.

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#675345 - 12/18/07 09:52 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I still think these tests are meaningless
in the context of actual playing. If you
have a $100,000, perfectly prepared
concert grand, you can create all kinds of
isolated tests like this that will make
the instrument sound terrible in some
manufactured situation. You need to play
the instrument with a variety of real music
in order to get an overall picture of its
performance.

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#675346 - 12/18/07 10:55 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Gyro - of course you do. The repedalling, however, is not a scientific isolated test, but is a quite often used practise. If you don't use that technique, or don't hear it's effects, it's ok - but some people do, apparently Wing Fat does and I do too. If Ivory can do it, that's great. Akoustik should be able too, as the changelog states. But it is not useless!
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675347 - 12/18/07 04:26 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Gyro: The notes dropping out are apparent in all of my "real" playing. I created the MIDI test to *illustrate* the problem, not as some isolated stress test. At this point I still have not determined if this is a problem inherent in Akoustik or something particular about my setup. Native Instruments support has not responded to my request for help and I'm relying on forum members here for assistance. So until I figure out what's going on, there's no point saying what I'm experiencing is "meaningless" because this is not meaningless for me, for me this issue makes Akoustik Piano unusable. Okay?

Mateusz: Thanks so much for your help with this.

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#675348 - 12/18/07 04:30 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
All that's needed at this point is somebody else that owns Akoustik to sequence the MIDI file through their setup. How about you Mati?

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#675349 - 12/18/07 04:53 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Mateusz actually did that and sent me the results via e-mail. However, the results he sent me are not the same as I'm getting, so it looks like there could be a problem with my setup, although I have no idea what. I've uninstalled and reinstalled Akoustik several times trying various versions of the upgrade files from their website but nothing seems to make a difference.

I ordered Ivory last night so I'll see what I get when it arrives. Ivory is even more expensive than Akoustik Piano so I'm keeping my fingers crossed (hey maybe that's what's wrong with my playing!).

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#675350 - 12/18/07 05:48 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
In fact, I have sent you just right about now new samples. Yours were with sustain resonance and reverb turned down to zero, whereas mine were with default values. After turning them down to zero, my results are exactly the same as yours.

For other forum members:

Here are the samples

http://private.maticomp.net/akoustik/new/

along with images illustrating the seetings. The old one with default reso and reverb settings are here

http://private.maticomp.net/akoustik/


Mateusz
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675351 - 12/18/07 06:31 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
Mateusz: The results are not the same. Here are my samples:
http://www.box.net/shared/471h3iz2k2

Listen to the second group of four notes. Yours are sustaining and mine are not (in fact I don't even get the "release" sound of the note... the note just shuts off). So it looks like something is not right with my setup. I can't imagine what in the world it could be though. I'm hoping someone else can check the MIDI file with Akoustik so I'll have one more example to cross check by.

Out of curiosity are you using the 16 bit or 24 bit samples? About the only thing I haven't tried are the 16 bit samples. I guess that's next on my list.

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#675352 - 12/19/07 04:50 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Oh, you're right. I must have somehow replaced your soundsample on my harddisk with my own recording, as the file from box.net is different that the one I was referring to.

That's really strange how your second group of notes doesn't sustain at all. I can't think of any possible reason why this happens.

I am using 16-bit samples, as they are a bit lighter than the 24-bits one, and I'm not recording, so the faint live-listening quality difference doesn't bother me.

Could you make a screen shot (print screen key on the keyboard, and then paste it int oany graphics viewer/editor, and save as a JPEG file) with your Akoustik Piano opened in exactly that settings you used to make this sample? I don't know whether I can tell anything from that - but I can look for something \:\)


Best regards,
M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675353 - 12/19/07 06:47 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Iowa
Wing Fat,

Have you tried using a different sustain pedal with this test?

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#675354 - 12/19/07 06:53 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
That's a good question. I would suggest the same.. if it wasn't for the midi file, which behaves differently on mine AP and Wing's AP. That's what I cannot understand nor explain.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675355 - 12/19/07 09:29 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
Originally posted by joangolfing:
Wing Fat,

Have you tried using a different sustain pedal with this test? [/b]
He's sequencing the same MIDI file, I sequenced through Ivory. If it was a pedal problem it wouldn't work on either software.

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#675356 - 12/19/07 12:08 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
How are each of you using Akoustik? Standalone, as a VSTi (if so, in which host), and so on...
_________________________
No idea what chords you are playing? Reverse Chord Finder Pro will tell you!

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#675357 - 12/19/07 03:37 PM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Standalone for me.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#675358 - 12/20/07 01:53 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Wing Fat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 41
joangolfing: Regarding the pedal, I actually thought it might be something with the pedal (since the pedal on my new Kawai M5 allows for different values of pedal input as opposed to just on or off) so I tried it with my old Kurzweil pedal and that did not make a difference. I also tried it on an old Roland MIDI controller and same thing.

Matthijs: I have used Akoustik in both stand-alone and VST (through Sonar) versions. Both produce the same undesirable results.

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#675359 - 12/20/07 04:02 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Then you'll have to figure out what the differences are between your computer and Mati's.

The most obvious place to look is the Akoustik settings. Uninstalling and reinstalling it may not necessarily have reset the settings.

Another issue could be the difference in operating systems, soundcard hardware, soundcard drivers, version of Akoustik, etc.

There is a difference somewhere.
_________________________
No idea what chords you are playing? Reverse Chord Finder Pro will tell you!

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#675360 - 12/20/07 07:11 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
joangolfing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Iowa
Wing Fat,

What basic settings do you use in Akoustik?

Do you switch from 50 to 150 voices with each piano?
On my M Audio Delta Asio settings I have:
monitor mixers with stereo links checked
sample rate of 44100
Latency 256 samples
6m latency

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#675361 - 12/21/07 06:32 AM Re: Akoustik Piano Help Request
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Wing Fat, it would seem like I have the same problem as you. I disabled the reverb and sustain resonance as described by you and as per the screenshot Mati posted. Using AP ConcertGrand Production, these are the results:

http://www.box.net/shared/1uuqu0p0ks

As a comparison, I ran your midi file through Pianoteq 2.2, with reverb, global and sympathetic resonances all off. Result here:

http://www.box.net/shared/woy95f64oc

One question though. How do I choose 16 vs 24 bit samples in AP? I can't find any such setting. The samples folders contain a mix of 16 and 24 bit files.

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