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#681249 - 12/03/05 02:21 PM ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Hi!
I am new to this forum:)
Looking to buy a digital piano but need this CRUICIAL question answered first... ("3 level dynamic range" on yamaha clavinovas that I've seen. Although at the moment I tend towords Roland hp2/3 Do they suffer from the same?)

I do not want an instrument that can only play piano, forte and fortissimo. I am better then that( am grade 9, have always played acoustic ).
I am also a student and my budget for a piano will be limeted to around$1500 Any advice would be welcome
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#681250 - 12/04/05 12:54 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
ranakor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 131
they don't have 3 level of dynamic but 3 velocity sample wich is very diferent it means that notes are recorded from a real piano at 3 diferent strenght but you can play with much more nuance than that (if say they recoreded pp at 20 mp at 60 & FF at 100 & you played a note at around 80 it'd be interpolated half way beetween the mf & the FF sample) so yes you can play as loud or piano as you want with a lot of nuance the reason where there are multiple samples is because the piano sounds & color are diferent at diferent level of velocity so it sounds much better to have a pp with a diferent sound than a ff .

if you want you can listen to me playing (quite poorly) something on my yamaha P250

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e33370967a84ef6e5702376363840a15&topic=12424.0

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#681251 - 12/05/05 04:07 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
gpallanti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 61
If you look for a digital piano whith a sound that can be as much as possible expressive as a real grand piano have a look at the GEM video demo http://www.generalmusic.us/Media/RP800VHSquality.wmv, and to the thread http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/6/1496.html. Otherwise if you have a quite powerful PC at home you can consider to buy an 88 keys graded hammer action master keyboard and pro sampled pianos as Native Instruments Akoustik Piano, Steinberg The Grand 2, Synthogy Ivory or East West Bosendorfer 290: these are all grand pianos sampled in every possible details, and they are many GB in size (while on digital pianos you'll find there won't be more than 32/64 MB), and don't need any particular PC skills to be used, just open the software and play the piano connected to the PC through MIDI. Also pay attention at the pedals, how many the keyboard can have and if the damper is only on/off switch or have all levels. For the keyboard feel you will have to try it as is totally subjective. Ciao,

Daniele

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#681252 - 12/05/05 07:13 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Many thanks for your detailed answeres! So it seems that digital pianos are "Ok" then...
But if there is such a huge discrepancy in sample sizes (digital piano 64Mb vs PC's 30GB) and also fewer samples - 3 for (all?) pianos 8 for PCs... Does it mean that digital pianos are for beginners/intermediate players/music, and those who look for more art in their music should look elsewhere?..
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#681253 - 12/05/05 08:17 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
 Quote:
Originally posted by ranakor:

if you want you can listen to me playing (quite poorly) something on my yamaha P250

[/b]
If that is playing quite poorly after only 1 year then I hope I can play that poorly also...I am at 9 months and loving every minute!!! The piece sounded beautiful to me!
_________________________
When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.

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#681254 - 12/05/05 09:07 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
gpallanti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 61
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
Many thanks for your detailed answeres! So it seems that digital pianos are "Ok" then...
But if there is such a huge discrepancy in sample sizes (digital piano 64Mb vs PC's 30GB) and also fewer samples - 3 for (all?) pianos 8 for PCs... Does it mean that digital pianos are for beginners/intermediate players/music, and those who look for more art in their music should look elsewhere?.. [/b]
It's 3 samples each note, not 3 in all. Actually it's only the attack part of each sample. In PC software it's even 16 for each note, with the full lenght of the note, and also all possible combinations of dynamics with pedals, and often they offer more than one piano, so it's a huge amount of data. No digital piano can get closer to a recent dedicate software piano, probably the closest it's the GEM I suggested you or his big brother Promega 3 as it uses many particular digital synthesis beside sampling to recreate the piano sound, but if I have to choose between Synthogy Ivory (the one I prefer) and any digital piano at any price I will always take the Ivory.
A digital piano cannot substitute a real piano, as the keyboard feel will always be different. But for the sound I must admit that recent software piano are really really close to the real thing, actually they are better than most of the real pianos as they are digital replications of 50.000 $ and up grand pianos that you won't normally play with. And every year they are making better and better...
Another thing you have to keep in mind it's the "case" of the keyboard: if you take a vertical digital piano you'll pay hundreds of dollars for the wood case, while if you take a portable (stage) digital piano it might look to you to be a toy but it's not different as have the same keyboard and sounds, and you can either save some money or take a more expensive piano. Also many master keyboard aren't made for pianist so you might have to buy a digital piano to find a keyboard you fell comfortably with, and eventually use it as a master keyboard connected with the PC. Ciao,

Daniele

P.S. Sorry I'm editing this message as more things are coming in mind. Pay a lot of attention to poliphony, don't go lower than 64 notes of poliphony, as you might think that 32 notes are enough but if you use the damper a lot they won't be enough.

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#681255 - 12/05/05 01:55 PM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
Once again, many thanks!
Just a bit to add: to go with the soft,PC, digatal piano you'd also need a very good set of speakers + an expensive amp (or a good headphone amp + a set of phones)... So although definitely cheaper then a Steinway, still not cheap...hehe
I understand the part about the samples - attack, decay, resonance of the neighbouring strings are all very different for C taken softly to C taken at fff... and what about if you take CEG (for example)- all notes interplay with each other... Complex stuff!! \:\)
Are there any digital pianos with more than 3 samples? My home computer at the moment is a laptop, I don't have speakers/amps - so Ivory set up is out of question for me for now:(
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#681256 - 12/05/05 08:44 PM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
droah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Malaysia
The newer high end digital pianos have 4 layers
samples (ie. Yamaha CLP 270/280).

Sample piano softwares, inspite of their sizes, and more
layers do not necessarily produce better sounds.
I was quite disappointed with my VGP and EW Bosendorfer 290.

Recently I bought Ivory and I find this to be
extremely playable with very nice sounds.The problem with Ivory is that this is not a standalone and you have to spend a lot more money
buying a software sequencer like Cubase or Sonar.

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#681257 - 12/06/05 06:58 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
gpallanti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 61
 Quote:
Originally posted by droah:
The problem with Ivory is that this is not a standalone and you have to spend a lot more money
buying a software sequencer like Cubase or Sonar. [/b]
Actually you can play it using Steinberg V-Stack which costs 50 bucks. See it at http://www.steinberg.de/ProductPage_sbdff5.html . Ciao,

Daniele

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#681258 - 12/06/05 07:03 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
gpallanti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 61
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
Just a bit to add: to go with the soft,PC, digatal piano you'd also need a very good set of speakers + an expensive amp (or a good headphone amp + a set of phones)... So although definitely cheaper then a Steinway, still not cheap...hehe
My home computer at the moment is a laptop, I don't have speakers/amps - so Ivory set up is out of question for me for now:( [/b]
Go for a digital portable piano with internal speakers, and maybe in the future you'll get a better PC for upgrade the sounds. Besides the GEM PRP800 I already suggested you I would have a look at the new Yamaha P140 (two pedals) or a used Yamaha P250 (three pedals), which is more expensive of your budget but definivetly a professional product. Ciao,

Daniele

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#681259 - 12/06/05 08:43 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
Gpallanti, have you got your PRP800 already? \:\) I'm really curious about that piano, the price is the killer in spite of the fact, that DRAKE is in there.

M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#681260 - 12/06/05 09:22 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
gpallanti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 61
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mati:
Gpallanti, have you got your PRP800 already? \:\) I'm really curious about that piano, the price is the killer in spite of the fact, that DRAKE is in there.[/b]
Not yet, I will receive it in mid december. But it's not for me, it's a Christmas gift I'm making to my boyfriend so I will put my hands on it at the end of the month. Ciao,

Daniele

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#681261 - 12/06/05 09:32 AM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
However, if you do so, please write something on the forum about that virtually incredible instrument \:\)


Best wishes!
M.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#681262 - 12/06/05 01:54 PM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
hv Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Cape Cod
One of the PC piano library developers is a forum member named "Worra". He's posted some demos I gave him comparing my wife playing his latest TBO library and a real piano. Here's the thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/6/1500.html

That library's state of the art... 31x3 layers. He does separate samples for pedal up, down, and release. Which explains the name: The Big One.

The internal sounds for the latest Nord keyboard are also his work. I haven't seen one myself yet but I keep hearing people talk about it. I understand he used a simplified version of one of his smaller piano libraries for that.

Howard

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#681263 - 12/06/05 02:40 PM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
Mati Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Lodz, Poland
TBO is really The Big One, huh. Better than Ivory? \:\) I'm highly impressed. But the power, the power, we lack the power to run such samples \:\)

I'm really interested how, for example, GeneralMusic's DRAKE can be compared to today's sample libraries. I was a little bit frustrated when I have noticed that The Grand 2 from Steinberg does not include sympathetic resonance, and the note struck with and without sustain sounds the same - without generating any additional overtones from non-struck strings.
_________________________
Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)

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#681264 - 12/06/05 03:38 PM Re: ppp,pp,p,mp,mf,f,ff,fff ... Possible on digital pianos?
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
ranakor,

Are you sure about that interpolation? I have/had both a P80 and P200, and was never able to get any real nuance out of either.

DavidH

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