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Hi,

I'm looking for a digital piano for my 9 year old son who's learning the piano for 6 months now. My budget is $2000, which I'll reluctantly bump to $2500 for exceptional value.
After reading these posts for a week, I have the following criteria for our first digital piano:

1. Sufficiently close in feel and sound to a accoustic, that there is no risk of developing acoustic-itis' when playing a GOOD accoustic piano. My son plays on an old Steinway Grand at lessons.

2. Features that will assist a beginner who's taking lessons (my son), and help a beginner learn to play (me).

3. Inexpensive enough that I would have 'got my money's worth' if we decide to upgrade in 3-5 years.

4. Provide a good keyboard platform, if I decided to 'build my own' upgrade instead of 3) - with a dedicated computer running Ivory, and monitors hooked up to a good set of in-wall speakers.

5. Strong preference for PE finish - we can live without it, but my wife will not be happy.

Current choices
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I've narrowed down to the following choices:

1. Yamaha CLP 240 *PE* - IF it can be had for $2500 - quotes in Central NJ are @ $3500 !!!
2. Kawai CA5 *PE* - IF it can be had for $2500
3. Yamaha CLP230 PE if it can be had for under $2000 - quotes in Central NJ are @ $3000 !!!
4. Yamaha YDP233 - I can get this for about $1500, and this is available.

We've tried the Yamaha 230, 240, and separately, the YDP 223. "Tried" - as in asking my son, and the sales rep to play pieces on the pianos. I plan to check out out the CA-5 shortly.

My son gets to veto any choice if he is not comfortable playing it (no veto on color) - he has not exercised his veto right on any of the above thus far.

Questions
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1. My understanding is that the YDP223 is EXACTLY THE SAME as the CLP230 except GH instead of GH3. Is this correct ? Can anyone here confirm that they *SOUND* the same ?

2. At my son's current level, will GH3 versus GH make any difference ? What about in 3 years if he's been progressing well ?

3. How does the Kawai CA-5 compare in this mix given my critera. I know BachManiac is a strong believer in the CA5, but otherwise I did not hear very many positive comments about the CA-5 compared to the CLPs. And there are some really downgrading posts out on the web about the Kawais.

4. What would the extra $500 - $800 on a CA5 or CLP240 buy for a novice player. Would it allow the upgrade cycle to be pushed out a few years ?

5. Are there any other alternatives to the YDP 223 at that price / performance point ?

6. There's a Yamaha Factory direct sale going on where I live - the quotes I mentioned are from them, with the dealers even higher. Does anyone have any experience with these events ? Will they come down to the prices posted on this forum ?


Thanks for reading this far - I'd appreciate any resposes at all, and especially specific answers to my questions.

Thanks,

- Sreeram

Hi rama and welcome to the forums,

I can answer or rather give my personal opinion on some of your above concerns, apart from anything to do with Kawai-a member called bachmaniac will tell you everything you need to know in that respect.

I have just bought a CLP270 by Yamaha, not one you are evidently considering, but I would recommend like mine the GH3 instead of the standard now dated GH keyboard. Thus it would be very wise to go towards the CLP240/230 which both have GH3. Also I strongly recommend you go for the dynamic sampling offering multi-sampling for every key, this I believe is on the CLP240 not CLP230. Your son will no doubt discover the benefits of this like me after playing for some time on acoustic pianos. The tone changes on my CLP270 alot depending on how hard/soft you play responding like an acoustic, mine has 4-layered sampling, although the 240 will have 3 its not too noticable anyway. This way the piano will be harder IMO to outgrow as it were or get tired of. I dont like digital pianos with no dynamic sampling now, now I have the 270 theres no going back, and IMO it helps play pieces to a higher performance standard because you know how hard/soft you are playing and can more easily tell what level of dynamics you are playing, it helps the performer to play properly.

The GH3 is one of the best keyboard technologies currently out there, and I am more than happy with its touch/response, amazingly authentic weighting and you can play notes repeatedly with no breaks etc.. basically to get closer to an actual acoustic grand piano, most other keyboard technologies cant compete with this, even uprights!!

Its arguable, but I think its best to go with Yamaha, and GH3 and the 3-step dynamic sampling the CLP240 offers, your son will almost certainly appreciate the added benefits this model possesses over the CLP230, and it should last longer till you are ready to upgrade.

I love my Yamaha CLP270 loads-its unbelievable.

Cheers

I like Yammy 'boards, having owned two of their stage pianos.

There's a little bit of marketing hype in the graded hammer concept. Yammy's concert grand is touted as being regulated to have equal touch weight on all keys, but the graded hammer feature of their digitals corresponds to the way that techs tend to set up grands in the field.

Memory says that the action mechanism of the graded hammer boards is identical and that the difference is that the GH3 has three gradations of weights, rather than two. The upscale CLP 280's Natural Keyboard uses a different action mechanism.

The YDP line used to be available thru non-Yammy dealers. Don't know the situation now.

Looking briefly at the the YDP-CLP specs on Yammy's site, the only difference that I saw is that the CLP's specs include a sliding key cover. Please note that this does *not* mean that the YDP doesn't have that feature. It only means that Yammy doesn't list it;-)

Regarding how long your son would be able to make good use of the one you buy, the action mechanism of any of the ones on your list is good enough for even advanced players. The real limiting factor is the number of layers in the included samples. When playing a good acoustic grand, increasing the force used also changes the timbre of the notes. With digitals, the timbral spectrum is limited by the number of layers. So your son will have a broad volume range, but a limited timbral palette.

Down the road, the timbre issue can be finessed with those third-party samples. They'll have at least eight discrete layers. Both the YDP and CLP models on your list have MIDI connections, which can be used to access those samples.

Having three pedals is a good idea, when your son is ready to use pedals. If he's not ready yet, you can probably pick up a good used stage piano, such as a P90, on eBay or craigslist.com.

If budget is an issue, I'd be watching craigslist and eBay. Mark Purney just sold his CLP 175 there for c.$4500.

Re getting your money's worth, you will, at a minimum, have had the use of whatever you buy for as long as you keep it. You may want to compare that to the cost of renting an acoustic upright. Your son's teacher may be able to help with renting info.

GH3 vs GH is a big difference and most people would recommend GH3, no questions.

The main differences between the CLP240 and CLP230 is the samples and the sound system, so if you will be running Ivory through speakers then I would go with the CLP230 for the action and save the extra money for the rest. The CLP230 still sounds nice without the enhancements but it will sound better than the CLP240 if you run Ivory.

The CLP230PE should be negotiable down to around $2300 to $2500. My dealer wanted $2200 for a non-PE version but things are overpriced here. Most people can find it for between $1800 to $2100 non-PE. PE adds between $300 to $500 to the base price. I wouldn't purchase a CLP230PE for more than $2500 ($2000 + $500). There are a couple people here who bought non-PE CLP230s for $1600 on clearance. IMHO $1800 is a fair price but I'd be willing to go up to $2000 in a high-priced area.

Hope this helps!

BTW, were you aware that you can run Ivory through your CLP230's internal speakers? Just wanted to make sure you knew all the options available.

Prices seem high. I'm in northern Jersey & I was quoted lower prices last spring. I ended up going with a GEM rp800 (~$2200) from Royal Music (Toms River).

I got my 5 yr old girl a Roland KR 115.

^^ Wow

That thing is bigger than her.

i would think that with your budget, you might just go for a CLP240 and find it for the best price.

If your son enjoys playing you should look for the best you can afford. The better it feels the more he'll enjoy it. Focus on action/touch more than sound and looks. The latter two can be (more or less) easily upgraded.

Kawai action is just good plain different. None of the other models you listed feel anywhere near like a Kawai CA line with its wooden keyboard. But, as everything else, it's a subjective matter and your son may well not like it. When he plays one, ask him to focus a bit on the black keys (which are also all wood). I have a feeling that some people miss that altogether. And remember that, for your budget you could have a fully rigged MP8, but unfortunately that means not only a stage piano, but also speakers, wires etc.

If you (your wife) can stand a stage piano, then check out Yamaha's P-140, which to me is a superior choice over the YPG-223 for several reasons:

1. dynamic sampling can be positively heard in its sound

2. it's less expensive (I think best deal is with KraftMusic.com when bundled with dedicated stand)

3. you can upload to it external songs

4. it's smaller, if space is an issue, but not bad looking

Downside: mainly non-console looks and lack of three-pedal provision (latter not a big deal)

I Just bought a ydp-223 for my daughter and family and couldn't be happier. I am a professional musician although not a pianist and it sounds looks and feels great. B&H photo has them for $1399

First off, a big thanks to you all for your comments and feedback. It been a GREAT help !

So to summarise :

mwf: - gh3 over gh, and 240 dynamic sampling over 230 - both make a big diff.
fogvilleLad - gh is itself pretty good; dynamic sampling makes a big diff.
agent - gh3 over gh is a big diff; 230 is decent even without ivory; with ivory it will beat the 240.
agent - 230PE prices in the $2k-2.5k range (ouch !! - where does that set the 240PE)
leoniaNJ - throws in the curve ball - GEM rp800 (now THAT is radical technology !)
edpiano - WoW ! but out of my league.
signa - gh3+dynamic sampling = 240 (nicely summarises everyone elses sentiments ?)
vitog - action and dynamic sampling are big, and a vote for the Kawai CA series
javaman - the ydp233 will be good enough (my fear / hope ?)

And with all those answers come More questions:

1) Is it fair to say that the key actions of these digitals will be more 'grand like' than a basic ($3k new) accoustic upright ? Or is that plain wrong ?
2) GH3 v/s GH - for those who tried both and noticed a difference - was the difference only for more accomplished playing, or even for basic / beginner material ?
3) Same questions (noticeable diff for complex v/s basic level) for the 230 v/s 240. What about some posts about the 230 sound getting 'tiring' after a while - compared to the 240 with dynamic sampling ?
4) any figures for 240 pricing ?

Questions to specific posts:
---------------------------
agent - wrt 230 and overpriced pricing, may I ask where 'here' is ?
leoniaNJ - what made you pick the GEM. How does it compare to the Yammys and the other usual suspects ?
leoniaNJ - could you share the prices you were quoted for the 230/240s
javaman - did you compare to the 230/240s - would you have gone for them if the price diff was less ?
vitog - there are some pretty negative comments in this forum about the CA 5's sound quality - is it subjectively bad, or just plain bad (I've still to hear the CA5).
vitog - would any of the CNs give the YDP223 a run for its money ?

The dilemma
-----------
Left brain: Would rather spend $1500 now if it will be adequate for our level of playing for the next 2/3 years, and THEN spend another $3000 to get something that will blow away a todays $4500 digital. Which distills to one question - will the YDP233 prove adequate for our abilities for the next 2/3 years ?
Right brain: GH3, Dynamic sampling, PE....sigh !
Think I'll go with the right brain...no, left...no, right...arghh!!!

Once again, thank you all for you comments & feedback. It's turning a dreaded journey into an rather enjoyable one !

- Sreeram

it's a hard decision apparently. CLP240 (non PE) is probably around $2500 or less, which of course is a much better one than YDP223 as you know. if you can get a good deal on a 240, it would be worth it to spend a few hundreds more over a 223.

Rama,
1. I'm unfamiliar with the CN line, but it does NOT use the AWA Pro wooden key action, many like the AHA IV it uses, but it is not comparable in any positive way to AWA Pro, but I'd be surprised if the CN isn't noticeably better then the YPG223.

2. the perception of sound that comes out of a DP is as subjective as it gets, to me CA5 sounds at least as good as any Yamaha or Roland under $2500 I've had a chance to try

rama, re the feel of the actions, when playing a digital the feel is more like pressing on the end of a lever; with acoustics - even uprights - there is a feel of setting a mass into motion.

When I switched from a Yammy P80 (graded hammer) to a Bachmann GRPT 140 which has an action for an acustic upright, I could literally turn from one to the other. The different character of feeling was immediately apparent.

Because you are willing to buy an instrument which may be replaced in a couple of years, I'm repeating my suggestion to consider something like a lightly used P90. Your son may not be ready to use pedals. If he isn't you can get a 'board for less than $1,000 and replace it later with a three-pedal piano. Have you spoken to his teacher about the pedals?

FogVilleLad,

So there IS a noticeable difference btwn an acoustic and a digital...does it present a problem when switching from one to the other ?

When you say '...literally turn from one to another..' did you just mean that they were located side by side that you could go back and forth to compare the diffs ? Or do you mean that transitioning btwn the 2 is not difficult ?

The P80/90 are no-go's because this will live in the family room and has to be 'furniture grade'.

My son's teacher is quite particular about the pedals, and encourages using them a fair deal during lessons. So I believe pedals are indeed required.

Would you recommend differently if I did not plan to upgrade in a few years ?

Thx again for you comments,

- Sreeram

rama...I would suggest that you wait then for the Roland HP200 series to hit the market in august...then you will have everything you dream about.

Until then the FP-7 is the very best action you can get

I have been through all your questions rama...and I can say from my heart that Rolands new action is way ahead yamaha GH3!

I have liked the GH3...until I played the PHA II...

Rolands PHA II is just gorgios...

It feels like a grand (and still its plastic claviature)

The first DP ever with this acion is the FP-7. The HP201, HP203 and HP207 will have it in late summer.

Then I'll guess it will be implemented in the KR-200?? series next year.

Hi rama,

I'm with DooJJoo. There are quite a number of new technologies coming out in the next couple of months and I think it would behoove you to wait and see what they look and feel like.

Having said that, I opted for the cheapest thing (stage piano) I could find to tide me over for the next two years when I have a better feel for what I would need going forward. After almost a year of being back to the piano I'm still not using any pedals. So I would go with your option of "cheapest for couple of years". In your case a home piano would be ideal I would think. For the following reasons:

1. Comes with a sturdy stand and pedal setup.

2. Internal speakers means no messy wires running around.

3. Options tend to be geared toward ease of use not live performances.

4. Looks like furniture. Like you said, your wife wants the PE. I suspect she will NOT like how a stage piano looks after it's set up to all the equipment.

Glad you are having fun! It's important to enjoy this part of the process. Too many people get frustrated and confused.

rama, in order

* No, switching from one to the other is not a problem. Perhaps one minute to become confident about the new feel. For children, that probably is reduced to seconds;-) "Confident" is different from "comfortable." Before I put my trusty P80 into the walk-in, I always wished I were playing the Bachmann. That acoustic action has a different feel and IMHO is more enjoyable to play. That does *not* mean that your son's development would be hampered by playing a digital. It won't hurt him at all. BTW there are differences in the feel of acoustic actions, too.

* Yes I meant that I could literally turn from one to the other. In fact I was sitting on the same bench.

* The only difference in recommending is that we know now that the WAF (wife acceptance factor) is important and that the teacher is already stressing using pedals. Bye, bye stage piano, hello cabinet model.

There's a downside to buying the very best. DooJJoo and Agent alluded to it: five years from now "the very best" will be obsolete. That's the nature of the digital world.

It's always Compared to what? Well, when you consider even the cost of tuning an acoustic, the fact that "the best" has little resale value is no big deal. And if you factor in that you've had five year's use of whatever you buy,...

I guess that commitment is also a factor. Kids change so quickly. It could be that your son enjoys making music, but like Lisa Simpson his instrument is the saxophone. There's really no telling. So my bottom line recommendation would be to not put yourself into a financial bind at this point.

As for waiting for that revolutionary action to appear, it's not likely to revolutionize anything. Digital actions are designed to be used in stage pianos as well as in cabinet models. There's just not enough room in a stage piano for an action that could truly feel like an acoustic's.

If you do buy upscale now, this Yammy fan advises using Yammy's Natural Action as your standard of comparison. IMHO Yammy's market dominance is deserved.

If possible, you might want to take your son around to shops and let him sample the various actions. Multiple auditions of the same instruments, and asking him questions about the actions may uncover a preference. Tone and touch are interrealated, so you may want to ask his opinion of both. Frankly, at his age kids are so adaptable that you may end up having to make the decision anyway;-)