Hello everybody,

I've been reading this forum for the last week or two trying to get an idea on which DP I should buy. I've found this community to be very informative and friendly, and it's greatly appreciated on this end.

I'm a "return" piano student... I guess. I was forced into learning as a child, but dropped it through my teen ages, then tried to pick it up 4 years ago but my apartment neighbors didn't like my novice skills banging away on an acoustic piano... so I was discouraged and stopped playing once again. But lately, it's been eating away at me and I've decided that a DP is probably the best route.

I'm looking into the lower end models, $1,000 tops... and from what I've read on the boards, I'm very interested in the Yamaha YDP213. I dropped by Guitar Center and tried it out and compared it to a handful of other DPs. I don't know enough to tell the difference between sound quality, but the YDP213 felt really comfortable to me.

And then I saw this post which was recently bumped:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/6/2405.html

After going through the pages, I noticed that although the YDP213 is frequently recommended, no one actually owns it. Or rather, no one that owns it has posted on that thread. So I guess in order to put my jitters aside, I just wanted to know whether or not the YDP213 really is a decent DP for a beginner... Where are all the YDP213 owners?

it's the lowest YDP model and has weak speakers and GHS action (while YDP223 and above all have GH action). for a beginner, it's decent. i'd rather to get 223 instead. but if your bugdet is limiting you, this is a good choice in that range.

DC, [/b]Yammy's site says that the company *designed* this graded hammer action for the 213. But I'm guessing that it's actually the original graded hammer action, which is on my P80. I think that the only difference between the original graded hammer action and the GH3 is that the newer one has three hammer-weight zones instead of the two weight zones on the original.

You could always contact Yammy's tech support, to verify this info.

The 213's sampled piano includes only one dynamic layer. That means that the timbre of the notes won't change as volume increases. I don't know about the 223.

If you're concerned about silent practice, your best bet is to buy a set of studio-quality 'phones. They make a world of difference. Sennheiser's HD580's were a recording studio staple for years. They're available on eBay for c.$180. I know that's a big hit when you're shopping on a limited budget, but if there's any way that you can swing that pruchase, you won't regret it.

If you are going to go in the entry Yamaha range, wouldn't it make more sense to go with the YGP625/DGX620?

Its cheaper, It is more updated, same or better action, better sounds, more features certainly in the self-teaching area, voted product of the year? It has USB to connect to computer and multi-track recording, and if you had to sell it, it will move on eBay much faster than a ydp213 because of its popularity.

RE: OnTheWeb
The DGX620 eh? Seems my research has been incomplete. Thanks for the heads up. I'm reading up on it now. The two disadvantages so far seem to be:
-the 32 note polyphony on the DGX against the 64 on the YDP
-the lack of sustain/soft/sostenuto pedals on the DGX (only the sustain pedal is supported?)

... but I don't quite know what that really equates to for a beginner.

RE: FogVilleLad
I've read reviews on other sites as well as this forum that say the HD580s are tight on the head, have a flimsy band construction, but yes... good sound quality indeed. Many suggest the Sony MDR-V6 at around the same price range... any thoughts on this?

RE: Signa
Yea... the 223 would be better... but it's also a lot more money (for me, anyway.)

Thanks for all your feedbacks. I'm glad I posted this thread.

I was recently trying to make the same decision, and ended up buying a CP33 after comparing it with YDP625, 213 and P140 at Guitar Center.

I think on side-by-side listening the biggest differences turned out to be the dynamic sampling and half-pedal capabilities of the CP. Coupled with the USB port, support for a second pedal and the 64 polyphony it was worth it for me to get it inspite of lacking on-board speakers.

even though YDP213 may have 3 pedals, it doesn't support 'half-pedal'. just so you know that, and you may also check with Yamaha support about it.

I have a YDP213 and guess I would recommend it if you're looking for a console and are a beginner. The sound is very shallow, but you won't really notice unless you play an acoustic for a while and then try to play this.

(Also my A above middle C is loose. The keys can't take very much sideways motion I guess. It's not a big deal, only when there is a little bit of tension left to right do I notice it.)

DC, [/b] having used Sennheiser HD 580's for more than 3 1/2 years, I can assure you that they are comfortable for extended use. And their bands are not fragile. I tend to be a little absent minded and my 'phones survived many a drop and careless removal.

There's something to be said for buying an instrument with a ready resale market.

If you do decide to go the stage piano route, you may want to keep this three-pedal foot in mind as a possible addition, down the road.

Hmm. Okay. Well, maybe I'll go see if Guitar Center has a pair of the Sennheiser and Sony to try out. ... Or maybe I could open one of the boxes in a dark corner and try them on quietly. ...

Anyway.

I would like a nonstage piano (what are they called?) for the looks. I'm a fool for aesthetics. But I'm not putting aside the sound quality and action. Those are as important, if not more so. One thing I do not really care for are the 3 billion different voices and whatnot... I'm looking for a great sounding Grand Piano + metronome + fully supported pedals + realistic action.

I thought the YDP213 would be just that in my price range. But some of the points that were brought up is leading me to believe that perhaps I should look into spending a bit more. Maybe even saving up to buy the YDP223, which is twice the price of the 213. But that brings to light the same problem, just in a new arena. In its price range, what is the competition for the 223? Non-Yamaha included.

**EDIT** Oh... I just figured out that the headphones I thought you (FogVille) were talking about was the HD280... I looked up the 580. Wow... that's expensive. But if it's durable and the quality is really that great, I'm guessing I'll probably keep it for a long long time. So I'll look at it as an investment.

DinoCow,

About the polyphony issue. If you are a true beginner, the 32 polyphony shouldn't be a problem. Polyphony, in layman's terms, refers to the number of notes you can play at once. The more sounds you layer, or the more notes you sustain while you go ahead to play even more--these things affect polyphony. 32 does seem a bit skimpy, but even 32 should only be a factor once your playing seriously develops. If you are an absolute starter, you might not want to choose a piano based on polyphony. Others might disagree, though.

The problem with a low polyphony count is that stereo notes use two units each. Not sure how many additional units are gobbled up by the sustain pedal. In any case, complete beginners don't usually use the pedal.

Memory says that when a Yammy runs out of polyphony, its first move is to sound notes in mono. So I think that beginners actually can make do with 32.

Watching eBay and Craigslist and phoning around to dealers, to learn if they have any trade-ins might turn up something with 64.

Speaking as a YPG625 owner (which I love btw), you really should look at the new Casio Privias, they ramped up their polyphony to 128. I think one of these new models can be had for under $1k. This is serious competition from Casio and until Yamaha responds, Casio imo has the lead in price/performance at this price point.

If you want a console piano then you may want to look at the Casio PX800. I have not been able to test drive one myself, but there have been several forum members who have. As sid says, this has 128 polyphony and, in my opinion, a heavier touch than the Yamahas. Unfortunately, Guitar Center carries these online, but the local stores do not stock them quite yet.

I had posted a question about a yamaha ydp-131 for a beginner on the 15th and didn't get much response. After doing some digging myself, I found that this model is actually the same as the 213 which I believe might be a regional issue (I'm in England).

Anyway, just wanted to say that I think a lot of people are missing the point in this current post.

Firstly, Dinocow appears to be a relative beginner.
Secondly, he has given up a few times before on the piano.
Thirdly, he has a budget.

What's the point of spending hundreds more on a dp that he probably won't appreciate and no offence but may sit there after the initial buzz wears off.

From the extensive amount of reviews that I've now read on the 213, I am completely satisfied that this is the perfect dp for any beginner to advanced enthusiast. I'm sure that you can buy a far more superior dp to this but at what cost and again I come back to my point, will the extra cost really benefit him or be appreciated.

I've ordered my 131/213 for my wife and it gets here next week. If you want Dinocow, I'll post my opinion of it on here.

Thanks for all the continued replies. It's all really helping me clear my thoughts.

I am considering the Casio PX800 as well. Guitar Center doesn't have in on their floors yet... the sales guy didn't even know what I was talking about... made me feel nervous and crazy. HaHa. But it is a contender in my list of candidate DPs. I need to put together an Excel sheet comparing specs and such.

And jago, thank you for condensing my situation into that brief synopsis and no offense taken (as it may well be true in a few months, but hopefully not, as it's a recurring aspiration to play music.)

So. Getting back to the whole point of this thread:

The YDP213 is recommended more than occasionally but it is not commonly owned. The reasoning is that it's a lower end model, and I guess the regular posters are enthusiasts who are willing to invest more money into an instrument. There are also the reasons that the speakers are weak, the action is only GHS, and the sustain pedals don't support half-pedaling (is that a correct use of the term?).

Looking at these reasons, I don't think they really make a grave impact on my decision based on my skill level and necessity. As long as the grand piano voice (?) sounds good and I can use headphones to by-pass the speakers, I think I will be fine.

But before I finalize my decision, could anyone compare the YDP213 to the PX800? For my situation, are there any other alternative console options I should be looking at (non-Yamaha, especially)?

***EDIT*** I happened upon the Williams Symphony Console Digital Piano on an online retail site.

(I'm not sure if linking to a retail site is allowed on the forum... I will edit if it's not.)
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Williams-Symphony-Console-Digtal-Piano?sku=700313

There are positive ratings, but no written reviews on the product. It may not be out yet as it says "Due 07-20-2007" but does anyone know about the manufacturer and their reliability?

DinoCow,

I own the Casio PX310, which is the previous generation of Casio pianos. This is a stage piano as I do not have a place to put a console.

The differences between a Casio and Yamaha in the price range you are looking at is mostly a matter of personal preferences. You already know the differences between them as far as specifications go. Just looking at these numbers, the PX800 has one of the best feature sets in this price range.

The Casio models have a heavier feel than the Yamaha models that I have tried, including the YDP213 and YDP223. You can certainly try the PX110 / 310 / 700 at Guitar Center as they still have them in stock and compare them to the Yamahas that you have been looking at. The feel of the piano is the one thing you cannot change. You can use a computer and piano samples to change the sound, but not the touch. I've read that the PX800 is slightly heavier than the PX310.

As far as the sound, I think the Yamahas are brighter than the Casio Privia models. Personally, I prefer Casio though the Yamaha sound is not bad and will work very well for you.

About the Williams pianos, Guitar Center does carry the Etude and I think another model. You may want to compare these with the other models you are looking at. I don't have an opinion about their models, but I've read both positive and negative feedback on the forums about these models. Here is the link to the manufacturers website: http://www.williamspianos.net

In the end, it comes down to your preferences in the touch and sound of the digital piano, along with your own decision on whether the extra features of the PX800 are worth purchasing it without trying it out first.

The specs of this Williams piano are great except for the 32-note polyphony. Considering the price it seems to be one of these chinese products, which are looking great and in fact are awful to play with.

Unfortunately as a beginner you can hardly judge the quality of an instrument, and that may be the reason why they sell any of these instruments at all :-) In any case you should try it by yourself . I recently tested an "Altana" DP which first looks very promising and thought: "Ok, now I know how a bad keyboard feels like :-)"

I am uncertain between buying a Kawai CN21 or a Casio PX-800. Kawai is known for their good piano sound and robust keyboards. Casio is still fighting with their bad image in this area, but meanwhile got some food in the market as their new DPs are of quite good quality. Casios PX-800 costs 250$ less than the CN21 and has more features, so they are more than competive.

Comparing the YDP131 and the DGX620

Watch this link. Yamaha personal pianos . And above all....go to a musicstore and play, feel, hear........and make your choise.

Best regards,

Johan B

I've had a YDP213 since January. It fit my budget, hasn't given me any problems, and I enjoy playing it. It doesn't have a lot of "bells and whistles," but all I really wanted was a good (and inexpensive) basic piano with full keyboard and weighted keys.

Since I take group piano classes on Clavinovas, rather than private lessons, transitioning between the digital and an acoustic instrument hasn't been an issue.

As part of the purchase package I received a pair of professional earphones. They're vastly superior to the ones that come standard, which are pretty flimsy.

Hope this helps,

PC

I wish they had more samples on that Yamaha personal pianos site. I'm not interested in the harpsichord voice for the keyboard... :p

I'm basically debating between the YDP213 & PX800 now... unfortunately, I haven't been able to try the PX800 yet, but the YDP213 was comfortable for me. I don't have a trained ear, so the sound quality was good enough for me (except when comparing it to those $2,000+ DPs...)

PC - I guess I'm basically looking for the same thing you were. What would you say about the grand piano voice on the YDP213 as compared to the Clavinovas? And how are the speakers?

I have a P60..I've been playing since 10/04
and if I had to do it all over again..I'd skip the P60..and save more money and get something that dosen't have heavy sluggish action.. the P60 cost $750.00 I'd save up and get a DP with better action..trust me yes the P60 sounds good for what it is..but feels lousy..so take into account the action..as well as the sound..lousy action can dampen (no pun)your desire to play..Bob Newbie

happened to pass a Guitar Ctr today and tried both YDP213 and 223 and definitely 223 felt better (213 around $1000 and 223 $1600 as marked). they also have CP33 and P140 there, which have the same feel. i was hoping to find a Casio PX800 to try but they only have older models.

Signa: If you see a Nocturne ...play it let me know how it is..it has 64 polyphony..3 times sampling its supposed to sound good..it should for the price!

If you're going to go up to that price range($1600), might as well get a pf500 (if you can still find them).

they probably don't make pf500 anymore but it costs around $2000 though. i haven't seen any Nocturne so far since it's out a while ago.

Strange about the Nocturne..I haven't seen any "customer" reviews anywhere... only yamaha reviews and promos..maybe its a poor seller based on too high a price? shave off $500..and it be where it should be price wise..

I agree and even add: even the sustain pedal will be barely used while you're still playing mostly Bach and early classical works. Even the range of the keyboard could be smaller: a beginner will never really use all those seven octaves for no other reason that the keyboard repertoire from Bach to Beethoven is entirely contained in 4/5 octaves. Unless you're already playing Chopin/Liszt and later romantics...

quote:
PC - I guess I'm basically looking for the same thing you were. What would you say about the grand piano voice on the YDP213 as compared to the Clavinovas? And how are the speakers?

reply:
I'm not terribly sophisticated about electronics, speakers, etc. The most I can say is that it sounds like a piano to me. We have it in a rather small room - a pretty "live" space, with drapes, but no carpets or upholstered furniture. Since we live next door to a monastery, I keep it at about 1/2 to 3/4 its potential volume level. I've never tried to "max out" on the speakers.

As far as personal preference goes, I prefer the sound of my YDP to the Clavinovas at school, but then my instrument isn't subjected to the same abuse as those in a school setting.


Hope this helps.
PC

It sure did, PC. Thanks for the reply. It was what I needed to know.

I'm hoping the Guitar Center puts the PX800 on its floor within the next few months so I can compare it to the YDP213. Right now, as a beginner and a minor hobbyist, I think either would do fine for me. I'll update when I make a decision.

I'd like to thank everyone who responded to this thread. Your contributed thoughts and advices are well appreciated. Thank you.

YDP213? Come on!
In that price range there is only one choice
GEM PRP 700/800

If you increase the price range to, let's say,
one million dollars - still the same.
You will not find a better sounding more expressive and playable hardware digital piano or software virtual piano, streamed from HD or modelled.
This sound was created in 2002, I think (but PRP 700/800 are very new models),
and it is still light years ahead of competition.
That is the concensus among the lucky ones who experienced it, I only listened and watched GEM demos and they sound just beyond words beautiful.

As to the keyboard action, RPR 700/800 have GEM own graded hammer action, I haven't tried it yet,
the reports are that it is much better than Fatar in Promega, and that it is very realisting but also easy on hands, good for practicing for hours and hours.

Dislaimer: this strong opinion is based mostly on opinions of others, and on the fact that I own an old GEM digital piano keybord, RPStudio, which I love

How do you edit already posted stuff and fix typos here anyway?

I wrote the previous message,
because I remember that specificly YDP213 was used by some people as an example that for the same money that costs to buy a junk like YP213 you can also get the best digital piano imaginable PRP 700 or 800.
One strong opinion may be still wrong, but I've seen quite a few similar opinions.
Many many opinions about this GEM piano sound (which is found in Promega 3, Promega 2, GRP 8000, RP 800, PRP 800, PRP 700 and piano module RP-X) can be devided into two groups:
1. Most: the best piano sounds, the most expressive, the most playable, nothing even comes close.
2. I've seen three somewhat negative reports:
a) a looping point audible in Fazioli 308 in a certain keyboard range - one report, but still a very positive report otherwise.
b) one report about upper-mid range getting muddy when playing fast, not confirmed by anybody else
c) one report about upper mid range sounding not as strong when playing in a band.
b) and c) may be related somehow,
but somehow nobody else has such problems

Every feedback I read from people who already baught these pianos - exceeding all expectations

BTW, the samples may be looped,
but there are no velocity switching at all,
two velocity samples together are used to generate all the intermediate velocities.
Also it has sympathetic string resonance, half-pedalling, etc.
This piano sounds alive

oh, again typos, ignore them,
but GRP 8000 instead of GRP 800 should perhaps be corrected
On other buletin boards there usually is "edit" button for the author of a message to make fixes,
but here I don't see it.

Hi SoftFloor,

You can edit your own posts by clicking on the icon of a sheet of paper with a pencil poised over it.

I'm not too sure about the GEM... can't find too much information on it and it seems to be difficult to obtain in the US. Sweetwater is the only place that sells it. That and the price range is a bit over what I was looking at. Also, it doesn't include a stand. I'm not looking to carry it around and want my DP to aesthetically match my living room decor... so that's also something I put into consideration.

Does anyone else have an opinion on the GEM keyboards?

For what I need and what I'm looking for, I still think the YDP213 or PX800 would do best. Thanks for the suggestion though! It's always good to know what else is out there.

DinoCow,

I have read several posts from people that have had a very difficult time obtaining support for GEM products here in the US.

I would not even consider them because of this problem, but that is just my view.

Yea, that's one of the main reasons I'm not considering it at the moment. If it were better, the testimony of their sound engine (?) is impressive... but still... probably overkill for what I will be capable of.

I'm wondering if there are any owners of the PX800 out there who've owned it for a while now (how long has it been out?) and could tell me about the quality of the product and how they feel about it.

I can't advise on the PX800, but I have had my PX310 since September. It has been very reliable. The PX200/800 were anounced at NAMM in February, I believe. I've heard about people that have had the PX200 for about a month or so.

I heard a report from someone who's had personal experience with the PX800 that it does not save personal settings after shutdown. I haven't read this in any "professional" reviews, but it might be something that those "professionals" just overlooked.

I think that is a major drawback, as it may become a great annoyance after some time when I have to reset the preference every single time I play...

Can anyone confirm this flaw with the PX800? If so, is there a chance that Casio could "fix" this through a firmware update in the future?

Also, I've decided that if the PX800 is not quite "usable" in that sense, I might as well throw in a few more hundred dollars (maybe up to $1,300 max) in order to take a slight step up. Are there any recommendations out there for a console DP in that range?

I've been looking at the Yamaha P140, Kawai EP2, and the Casio AP45. I like the AP45 because it looks the best, but I know that the Yamaha and Kawai probably sound better and have more realistic action.