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#684000 - 07/15/08 04:54 AM Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
For the Roland HP range: i frequently see this text in the specs:

" ... individual multi-samples per key ..... ".

But they never say how many samples per note/key (Roland samples every note unlike Yamaha), i didn't found info on the web neither.

The new Yamaha CLP300 range has:

>>> 30 sampling banks: (rest of the notes interpolated)

3 samples per note: MF - F - FF
(CLP320 and 330)
4 samples per note: MP - MF - F - FF
(CLP340)

>>> 50 sampling banks: (rest of the notes interpolated)

5 samples per note: P - MP - MF - F - FF
(CLP380)


So who knows how Roland manage this?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

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#684001 - 07/15/08 05:48 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Or Kawai?

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#684002 - 07/15/08 01:35 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
Well it seems that Kawai uses another technique, called "Harmonic Imaging".

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/harmonic_imaging.htm

Like samplebased software piano's as "SYNTHOGY IVORY" and the new "GARRITAN STEINWAY" you have the 'Virtual Sound Technology' like "PIANOTEQ" uses, which is in principle very good and gives more nuances in the sound, so a pro player can put more nuances in his playing, but the sound itself is still not so good (yet) and natural as a sample based piano program.

A famous pianist like HUGH SUNG says that he uses PIANOTEQ for putting more nuance's in his play:

http://www.hughsung.com/blog/index.php?query=muse+receptor&amount=0&blogid=1

I think this sound issue is the reason why some people don't like the KAWAI sound compared to YAMAHA, ROLAND or even CASIO.

There are also some models of the GEM digital piano that use such a 'Physical Modeling Technology' called DRAKE.


Found it all on the net, but what about ROLAND ?

_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

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#684003 - 07/15/08 03:23 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
stringless Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 143
Loc: Idiocracy, USA
This article may help better undstand roland.

The article goes fairly deep into how Roland makes their sounds. While the information is a bit out-dated, the latest stuff they talk about is still in production, or is only just now starting to be replaced, so the article is still quite valid and illuminating.

The article also has a brilliant section on keyboard and keyboard weights, which illustrate why it is I find Roland's touch to be so real, while other digital pianos can feel so fake to me.. it's not all just about key weights, just as it's not all about samples..

I don't know how many samples per key as regards dynamics. I've read, although I can't find the link now, that Roland has one hundred steps from 'no sound' to 'all sound'. I don't think that means 100 samples, but that there are 100 shades of sound between no sound and all sound.

To me, it's seamless, and with the tonal variations these pianos have, you wind up with a very expressive instrument.

There's so much more than just samples that go into making a good fake piano.. samples is but a tiny part, really.

Numbers can be deceiving. Sometimes the car with the lower horsepower rating is fastest around the track.. numbers don't tell everything.

Do read that article. It'll explain in fairly deep detail how Roland does what they does, and that includes the keyboard itself.
_________________________
o.O

A hammered piano, minus the strings. Brilliant!

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#684004 - 07/15/08 03:25 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
OK. But why are there so few positive comments on Kawai's "harmonic imaging" if it is a superior approach?

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#684005 - 07/15/08 05:18 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
eJohn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 129
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Every manufacturer claims to use a "superior" approach. The proof is in the final product.

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#684006 - 07/19/08 04:22 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Thanks stringless for that great link!

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#684007 - 07/19/08 05:18 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Shirakawa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 67
 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
OK. But why are there so few positive comments on Kawai's "harmonic imaging" if it is a superior approach? [/b]
Because the main piano sounds so ugly and uneven compared to other digital pianos, that even if they used a superior technology than other manufacturers, it wouldn't be noticed. And by the way, their physical model has some bugs (resonance not working like it should, bugged sostenuto pedal, etc).

I have a Kawai CA-51 and replaced its clunky sound with Pianoteq (by attaching the DP to my PC). Now THAT is superior in every way to everything I've heard so far. Best money ever spent.

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#684008 - 07/20/08 08:41 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8822
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Shirakawa,

If you believe there are bugs in the CA51's software, I would be grateful if you would please send me a private message detailing the problems.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#684009 - 07/20/08 09:55 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
ginger_vitys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Nashville TN
who cares?
_________________________
If you think education's expensive, try ignorance.

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#684010 - 07/21/08 12:07 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by ginger_vitys:
who cares? [/b]
Maybe the answer to your question is in your very own signature.

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#684011 - 07/21/08 12:15 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
About the "100 steps", isn't it some marketing trick to hide the fact that they could not produce a keyboard that would enable the 128 (or 127?) variations that Midi allows?

I play from time to time a less than 3 years old Roland Digital (a nice expensive one with a large LCD and a lot of sounds). The action is not that great, but what annoys me the most is the feeling of some short latency between the moment I play some keys and the moment the sound is produced.

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#684012 - 07/21/08 02:08 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
eJohn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 129
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Vincent, I think some Rolands allow you to adjust the "latency" period. Have you tried this? Which model do you have?

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#684013 - 07/21/08 10:41 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
I don't know the model (it is not my DP) but I will check this feature out next time I go to friends' place. Thanks ofr the information.

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#684014 - 07/21/08 01:25 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
stringless Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 143
Loc: Idiocracy, USA
Wow, such a sutble bash.

Here's a not-so-subtle one:

At least with the Roland you get audible and palpable changes in tone quality as you play louder or softer. So much more tonal color that I wonder if the other digital pianomakers' only tone is "Monotone Boring Tinkly Grand Piano." Piano 2 on the other maker's offerings is probably "Dull Coma-Inducing Boring Budget Upright"

I even SAID I wasn't sure of the number, and that I couldn't remember where I got it. Thanks for ignoring that bit. Really, thanks. Only you turned my words and used them to illustrate some supposed inferiority on the Roland.

Now that we got the daily bash out of the way, perhaps the older roland you speak of with the delay had something spilled in it? I've never heard of a lag in an electronic keyboard instrument, be it piano, digital piano, organ or digital organ. No-play, sure (dead keyswitch).. but never a 'delay'. That's for mechanical pianos into whose actions have fallen countless gummy bears and pencils and gumdrops and sandwiches and whatnots. That'll do it for sure.

Maybe you just like to bash and offer anecdotal evidence of suckage where there is none. Does it make you feel bigger?

They got pills for that these days, you know. No need to get on a forum and bash products you don't like by twisting words around.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent L.:
About the "100 steps", isn't it some marketing trick to hide the fact that they could not produce a keyboard that would enable the 128 (or 127?) variations that Midi allows?

I play from time to time a less than 3 years old Roland Digital (a nice expensive one with a large LCD and a lot of sounds). The action is not that great, but what annoys me the most is the feeling of some short latency between the moment I play some keys and the moment the sound is produced. [/b]
_________________________
o.O

A hammered piano, minus the strings. Brilliant!

Top
#684015 - 07/21/08 02:35 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
No need for personal attacks, as we do not know each other and probably can't have any influence on each other's life.
I did not pick on your post but on what Roland communicates. I am sorry you took it any other way.
Here is why:
It happens that the Roland reseller I visited in town had a very similar way to describe the difference between Roland DPs and the competition.
"Each key sampled at several levels ("100" is the exact number the sales person gave me) for the full duration of each note".
He compared his higher priced Roland DPs with a beaten up (the keyboard was broken, I could hear) Yamaha YDP-223. "Yamaha? Not all the notes sampled, loops to get the notes sustained, ... Junk!" and denied any multiple level sample (p, mf, f or more) for the Yamaha DPs.

The problem is that the piano sample size for a Yamaha P-120 is about 20 MB ... just for the piano voice #1.
So for the Roland, what is the size of the samples set? That will in tens of GBs, correct? Technically possible, but unlikely.
So it is my perception that your post is close to the Roland's marketing message, and it is that message that I dare to trust with reserves.
I am not in the piano business. As a end user, and not even a pro at that, I have no preferred manufacturer, and I would buy, if in need, any instrument that fits my budget and inspires me. I really respect Roland as a synth manufacturer. I considered a FP-3 and a FP-5 at one point but so far, after spending hours trying them, I am not crazy about their DPs.
I am not in love with any one manufacturer and that allows me to just try anything available with no preconceived or interested opinion.

I hope this clarified my previous post and will end this misunderstanding. If not ... you can like it or not, this is my just my opinion that I post here. And I will continue to do so because this forum is also about that too: John Doe sharing his point of view with other John Does.
Thanks to eJohn who gave me something to search for and try to improve my experience with my friends' Roland DP.

My apologies to the rest of the forum members for the noise.

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#684016 - 07/21/08 04:17 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7116
Loc: torrance, CA
One little unscientific test you can do with your digital to check dynamic range is to connect it to a recorder that has level meters or to a computer which is running sound-editing software that displays the record level.

I have a mini flash-recorder. If I connect it directly to my dp and push record, I can attempt to play an isolated note at many different levels of volume by varying my attack. If I simultaneously watch the record level meter(s), I can get an idea of the number of distinct volume levels that the dp can differentiate in my attack and communicate through its output. If I play back the recording, I can compare what my ears hear with the perception of the meter.

I realize this is not scientific., but it did tell me two things about my Roland FP7.

a) the dynamic range capabilities are different depending on what range is sampled (bass/mid/treble)

b) the overall dynamic range of a Roland FP7 is excellent for a digital piano.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#684017 - 07/21/08 05:17 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
I'm a Casio owner myself (Ivory interfaced but still), however if I were in the market for another digital, I'd probably go with Roland FP4 or FP7. I've only heard good things about them on this forum, and the individual sampling is a big selling point for me.

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#684018 - 07/21/08 07:34 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
I finally found the answer to my initial question myself.
Must have overlooked it.

- 3 level sampling for EVERY note/key for the HP-201

- 4 level sampling for EVERY note/key for the HP-203,204 and 207

Found it on the European Roland site HERE

For the US things are a bit different:

- 4 level for the HP-203 and HP-207 (there is no HP-204)

- 3 level for the HP-201 i think: it's not completely clear.

US Roland site HERE

Only for the FP-4, FP-7 and RD 300 and 700 range i still found no info.

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

Top
#684019 - 07/21/08 08:06 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8822
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Vincent L., may I ask if you have a link to the source stating that the P-120 utilises a 20 mb sample source for sound #1? Are you measuring megabytes or megabits?

turandot, while this method may approximatley measure the dynamic range of a digital piano, it does not take into consideration changes in timbre when playing from soft to loud.

It is relatively simple for a digital piano to play a mezzoforte sample at half volume in order create a pianissimo tone, or to play the same sample at twice the volume in order to create a forte tone, however the characteristics of the recreated sound are not an accurate representation of an acoustic piano.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#684020 - 07/21/08 09:24 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7116
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
turandot, while this method may approximatley measure the dynamic range of a digital piano, it does not take into consideration changes in timbre when playing from soft to loud.
Great point, JMBattle.

What I suggested is a quantitative approximation at best. Timbre is qualitative, and thus subjective. Timbre is a good part of what drives the 'discussion' (trying to be polite here) on the acoustic piano forum! \:\)
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#684021 - 07/21/08 09:35 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
ginger_vitys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Nashville TN
Vincent L says: "No need for personal attacks, as we do not know each other and probably can't have any influence on each other's life."

Vincent L says: "Maybe the answer to your question is in your very own signature."
=================

I say: Vincent L has an annoying arrogant streak, evidenced in his snide replies in this thread.

Were Vincent L more thoughtful and insightful, he'd recognize that buyers generally don't make a purchase decision based on such esoteric specs as the number of samples per note. The decision is typically based on sound quality, variety, tactile feel, price.

Nevertheless, to satisfy Vincent L's ego, I'll go ahead and pretend to feel bad for a very short while.
_________________________
If you think education's expensive, try ignorance.

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#684022 - 07/21/08 10:08 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
I believe I have read that some time ago on the european Yamaha website. And I can't find it anymore.
The only source I have found is from a Russian forum that states 22 MB Grand Piano sample for the P-90 (similar to the P-120 but without speakers):
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...cial%26hs%3D0E7

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#684023 - 07/21/08 10:32 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
And now that I have the "22 MB"ytes, it is actually easier to search for. Some people did read the same info years ago and posted it on sweetwater forums and this forum, like the p120man:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/6/24.html#000002

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#684024 - 07/22/08 01:08 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by ginger_vitys:

I say: Vincent L has an annoying arrogant streak, evidenced in his snide replies in this thread.

Were Vincent L more thoughtful and insightful, he'd recognize that buyers generally don't make a purchase decision based on such esoteric specs as the number of samples per note. The decision is typically based on sound quality, variety, tactile feel, price.

Nevertheless, to satisfy Vincent L's ego, I'll go ahead and pretend to feel bad for a very short while.
You wrote "Who cares?" - I respond "the answer is in your signature" - Your signature means "better be educated than ignorant" - If don't see the link and feel bad for a second ... whatever you smoke, stop it - it makes you paranoid and way too sensitive & serious.
Just to make sure: "Who cares?" The people who want to educate itself cares.
And yes, the decision should be, and most of the time is, based on "sound quality, variety, tactile feel, price". The order may vary from one person to another based on resources and experience.
Ans this is another good reason, in my HUMBLE opinion, to expose on such forum marketing tactics and BS - even if it is well spinned - from whatever manufacturer it is - as the goal of such tactics is to distract the customer from what really matters.

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#684025 - 07/23/08 12:58 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
ginger_vitys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Nashville TN
Vincent L: peace.
_________________________
If you think education's expensive, try ignorance.

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#684026 - 09/06/08 06:36 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent L.:
I don't know the model (it is not my DP) but I will check this feature out next time I go to friends' place. Thanks ofr the information. [/b]
Ok - they are back from vacation and we had dinner last night.
And the model is ... HPi-7LE

And the Roland web site says:
"
HPi-7LE: Digital Interactive Piano
Features
With cutting-edge digital features, unprecedented expressiveness, enhanced amplification system, and VGA-Out, the new HPi-7LE is the perfect interactive piano solution for music educators and students everywhere. The new HPi-7LE boasts an onboard VGA-output that allows users to hook their HPi-7LE to an external video monitor. With a simple click of a button the HPi-7LE's DigiScore and content-rich onboard tutorial features such as Flash Card games and Visual Lesson can be displayed on a large screen for piano sessions with power and punch. Additional features include an authentic-touch Progressive Hammer-Action Keyboard with escapement, 128-voice polyphony, and two headphone jacks.

* Flagship i-Series piano with new “Visual Lesson,” your own personal tutor
* 88-note Progressive Hammer-Action Keyboard with Escapement for the most realistic touch
* Over 600 high-quality Tones incorporating Roland’s latest stereo-sampled piano sounds for superb piano playing realism; 128-voice polyphony
* 640 x 240-dot color LCD featuring DigiScore® with VGA Out for external display
* Roland’s popular Wonderland games section, including Flash Card feature
* USB port, mic input, V-LINK for integrating video and music
* 4 Speaker, 100Wfull-range speaker system

"

So basically this is one of the top of the line DP from Roland.
I have played it again, tried to like it as much as I could, but no, I could not fall in love at all.
That might be the escapement feature that makes me feel like a disconnect between the keyboard and the sound generation.
The sound on the other hand is very good. I did not try with a pair of headphones, but I bet they worked hard to make as good as they could.
How much does this go for? Not that I want one but I am just curious.

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#684027 - 09/07/08 05:55 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 278
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
That was a Roland top line DP some 3 and a half years ago, so is a bit like looking at a Jaguar E-type as a current top of the line Jaguar!! \:D

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#684028 - 09/07/08 10:43 AM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
Except that if you go to the Jaguar web site, they don't advertise 40 years old models as their CURRENT top of the line, flagship and other "this is the best" word.
I don't recall Jaguar sells them through teir dealership network anymore either.

With a little effort, I am sure you can find a better analogy.

Note that I do not think it is wrong from Roland to not replace their models each time they change so little (cosmetic or insignificant upgrade like Yamaha from the P60 to the P70) that it does not worth the upgrade. I wish the other brands would not do it either.

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#684029 - 09/07/08 05:57 PM Re: Roland DP's: how many samples per key ?
Glaswegian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 278
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Flagship i-Series means it's top of the i-Series range. That doesn't necessarily follow that it's the top of the line Roland DP?

What about the RG-7 for example?

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