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#684795 - 05/29/04 09:46 AM what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Frungy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
I realize the P90 doesn't have speakers, but are there any other significant differenes in the piano sound quality/keyboard touch sensitivity? Does the P90 also allow for half-pedaling? Both seemed to be about the same weighting for the keys, and I think the P90 has an extremely slightly better sound, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something significant. The P90 is also usually how much cheaper than the P120?

Thanks, and if you post an opinion here, please back it up with experiences, information, etc. I appreciate it.

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#684796 - 05/29/04 10:25 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
p120Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 57
Loc: USA
In my opinion, the p90 is not as superb as the p120. Here's why:

*The p120 has String Resonance[/b], somthing the p90 does not have. String resonance is when you hold, lets say, middle C down so slightly you dont hear it, and strike and release the c below it, you will hear middle C vibrate very softly, just like on an acoustic piano.

*The "Key to sound" connection on the p90 is very good, but not as superb as the p120.

*The p90's "Grand Piano 1" is somewhat dull, and lifelesss. Its kind of dead. But you said you preffered the p90, which is fine.

I would say the p120 is extremely better in every way but this is preference. Try them out yourself.

But still, the p90 is a great stage piano.

Regards,
p120dUdE
_________________________
www.newenglandmusic.biz.ly

The Yamaha P120 is da bomb! It rocks! It is superb, fantastic, awesome!

*Yamaha P120 Stage Piano*Yamaha CS1X Synthesizer

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#684797 - 05/31/04 01:09 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Frungy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
I tried this "string resonance" out yesterday, and noticed no difference in sound. I played a chord without the pedal, then I played the chord with the pedal down (so according to resonance, the other octaves should sound as well.) Didn't notice any difference, even with good headphones on. The Yamaha website doesn't mention this at all either... if a piano did hae resonance, wouldn't it take up a ton of polyphony (since other registers would have to resonate?)

The store clerk said that the P90 and P120 are exactly the same, except for the speaker part... but I can't believe that's true.

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#684798 - 05/31/04 03:49 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
When I check whether a digital piano has string resonance I turn off the reverb and compare one of the highest notes with and without damper pedal. Normally you can already hear resonance without the damper pedal because in an acoustic piano the highest notes don't have any dampers (and that should be simulated as well), with the damper pedal down, you should hear the resonance going deeper.

By the way, according to Yamaha, the P90 does have string resonance :
Yamaha P90

I would have been surprised if it didn't, even my more than ten year old Roland had it...
As far as I can see there's not all that much difference between the P90 and P120, I played on them both though not in the same store so I couldn't compare them directly. I do know that I didn't like the touch of either of them but that their sound was pretty good. Much will depend on the speakers etc. that you use with the P90.
But I would certainly not say that the P120 is extremely better in every way, it just has a nicer package.
If I would have had to choose one of them, I would have chosen the P90, it would have been great with some nice Bowers&Wilkins speakers \:D
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#684799 - 05/31/04 05:40 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
BTW, you asked about keyboard and half pedaling.
Both models have exactly the same keyboard, more exactly Yamaha's Graded Hammer Effect keyboard. So I don't expect any difference in response or touch sensitivity (unless there are some electronic differences between the two models that I don't know of, anyway, I didn't notice any difference).
If you scroll all the way down to "Soft Pedaling Capability" on the site I provided in my previous post you'll see that P90 allows half-pedaling.

Hope this helps a bit.
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#684800 - 05/31/04 09:12 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
anomaly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 95
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
 Quote:
The store clerk said that the P90 and P120 are exactly the same, except for the speaker part... but I can't believe that's true.
It's not entirely true. The P120 has USB capability. Other than that they are the same keyboard. Sound-wise you are not going to be able to differentiate between them.

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#684801 - 06/01/04 01:04 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Frungy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
So there's no sound/touch difference at all? Hm, that makes my choice a bit easier then.

Thanks for the help.

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#684802 - 06/01/04 01:05 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Zymtil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 433
Loc: CS, Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by anomaly:
 Quote:
The store clerk said that the P90 and P120 are exactly the same, except for the speaker part... but I can't believe that's true.
It's not entirely true. The P120 has USB capability. Other than that they are the same keyboard. Sound-wise you are not going to be able to differentiate between them. [/b]
The P120 DOES NOT have a USB connection, your thinking of the P250. The P120, just like the P90, can be hooked up to a sound module that does have a USB connection.

As far as wether or not you will be able to tell the difference in the samples of the P90 (which has newer samples) vs. the P120 depends on your ears, and how much time you spend with each one.

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#684803 - 06/01/04 10:08 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
Neither the P120 nor the P90 have string resonance. The only P series Yamaha with String Resonance is the P250.
_________________________
Gary

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#684804 - 06/01/04 10:56 AM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Joseph:
Neither the P120 nor the P90 have string resonance. The only P series Yamaha with String Resonance is the P250. [/b]
OK, now I'm confused

Did you check the site I posted earlier?
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#684805 - 06/01/04 03:33 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
Yes, I did. The P120 & the P90 have Soundboard Resonance, which differs from String Resonance Modelling, is relatively new, and is only available in the P250.
_________________________
Gary

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#684806 - 06/02/04 03:24 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
p120Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 57
Loc: USA
Yes, but the p120 has "soundboard Reverb" modeliing, which simulates the resonance of a piano soundboard AND Sympathetic string resonance. I have confirmed this with a Yamaha product developer.

Soundboard Reverb- Simulates the resonance of a piano soundboard and undampered string vibrations. If you hold down C, D, E with your right hand, then strike C, D, E an octave below with your left hand, you will hear the right hand C, D, E resonate.

Key Off- Simulates the damper muting the string after you release the key.

Sustain Sampling- Simulates resonance of all piano strings with the damper pedal down.
_________________________
www.newenglandmusic.biz.ly

The Yamaha P120 is da bomb! It rocks! It is superb, fantastic, awesome!

*Yamaha P120 Stage Piano*Yamaha CS1X Synthesizer

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#684807 - 06/02/04 04:44 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
 Quote:
Yes, but the p120 has "soundboard Reverb" modeliing, which simulates the resonance of a piano soundboard AND Sympathetic string resonance. I have confirmed this with a Yamaha product developer.

Soundboard Reverb- Simulates the resonance of a piano soundboard and undampered string vibrations. If you hold down C, D, E with your right hand, then strike C, D, E an octave below with your left hand, you will hear the right hand C, D, E resonate.

Key Off- Simulates the damper muting the string after you release the key.

Sustain Sampling- Simulates resonance of all piano strings with the damper pedal down.
This is misinformation, and is being taken from the forum at Harmony Central, in which Mike Martin from Yamaha has just made a definitive statement that the P250 is the ONLY P Series piano with String Resonance. Here is the quote from Mike Martin, a developer at Yamaha:

The P120 and P90 do not have sympathetic resonance. There is only one "P-series" product that has this feature, its the P250. Its two cousins, the PF500 and PF1000 also have this feature as do many of the Clavinova models.

P120Dude, I appreciate your enthusiasm about the product. I suspect you are indeed hearing the soundboard reverb. This soundboard reverb is designed too fool you into thinking you are hearing "Harmonic Resonance". Kurzweil took the same approach in the Piano presets for its stereo piano and optional Piano ROM on the K2600 series. This however does not go to the level of detail that the P250 captures.

Rather than test your theory using similar notes (holding middle C, then playing a low C), hold a chord. Try something like a G Major chord. Hold it until the sound fades out and continue to hold the keys. Then play one of those low notes. The P250 has the intelligence to know which keys "harmonically resonate" with others.
_________________________
Gary

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#684808 - 06/02/04 04:52 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
p120Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 57
Loc: USA
The Yamaha p120 has string resonance, period.

Regards,
p120dUdE
_________________________
www.newenglandmusic.biz.ly

The Yamaha P120 is da bomb! It rocks! It is superb, fantastic, awesome!

*Yamaha P120 Stage Piano*Yamaha CS1X Synthesizer

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#684809 - 06/02/04 05:47 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
P120,
The Soundboard Reverb....is a reverb. It creates a VERY small ambient "space" much like opening the lid on a grand piano. Because it is a reverb, you are hearing a "trail"....in your particular case you're hearing a "trail" of a note which echoes at a octave of another.

This s NOT sympathetic or harmonic resonance.

I will try get an audio recording of a P250 done today...but I honestly do not know if I will have the time.

My description of the Soundboard Reverb was an attempt to verify with you what you were hearing. It "tricked" you, that is what I was trying to make clear.

A reverb by its nature will "echo" back frequencies. Thats all you were essentially hearing. If you listen carefully you'll realize that you'd hear the same thing even if you weren't holding down any other notes.
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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#684810 - 06/02/04 06:40 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Frungy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 283
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
I'll try out the P250 to hear the string resonance... but does the piano sound quality increase significantly? The P250 is probably way out of my budget, but I'd feel better if the difference wasn't very large. \:\)

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#684811 - 06/02/04 06:47 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
Frungy,
I think the difference is very noticable. Spend some time with it yourself. Enjoy.
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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#684812 - 06/02/04 06:54 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
Welcome Mike.
A question for you if you don't mind:
There's been some talk about "modeling" by some of the guys around here. Is there any acoustic modeling technology used in your keyboards or is it sample-based technology? If so, which keyboards contain this technology, and how is it used?
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PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#684813 - 06/02/04 07:11 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
The sound generation technology in the P-series is sample based.

The ONLY part of this that could be considered "modeled" is the way that the Harmonic Resonance responds in the P250 and PF500. This "response" uses samples to create illusion of real sympathetic vibrations.

This would have nothing to do with any kind of sound generation technology which Yamaha has explored in products like the VL1 and VL70m.

Understand?
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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#684814 - 06/02/04 09:38 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
The ONLY part of this that could be considered "modeled" is the way that the Harmonic Resonance responds in the P250, PF500 and PF1000. This "response" uses samples to create illusion of real sympathetic vibrations.
This would have nothing to do with any kind of sound generation technology which Yamaha has explored in products like the VL1 and VL70m.

Understand?
Thanks for the quick reply -- I thought this was the case. When I started hearing the word "modeling" thrown around on the board, I was a little suspicious. It seems that nobody has found a way to create an cost-effective modeled piano that sounds great. General Music is the closest I've heard so far, but still not quite viable in my opinion.

BTW -- I was at the original NAMM demo of the VL1 -- it was WAY ahead of it's time!!! I think it was Alan Pasqua that was demoing it -- amazing!

Obviously modeling technology has been quite useful in the guitar world. I'm curious as to when it'll start showing up in the piano world!

PS...do you work with Avery?
_________________________
PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#684815 - 06/03/04 01:10 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
Yes, Avery still works here!
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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#684816 - 06/03/04 02:36 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
p120Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 57
Loc: USA
I have just tested the p120 for string resonance again, and it has it.

Mike, I held down C D E. I Played a C an octave below, and the C D E did resonate softly. I then tried some other notes, like Eb Gb, and I played Eb and octave below and it resonated.

My p120 has string resonance.

Regards,
p120dUdE
_________________________
www.newenglandmusic.biz.ly

The Yamaha P120 is da bomb! It rocks! It is superb, fantastic, awesome!

*Yamaha P120 Stage Piano*Yamaha CS1X Synthesizer

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#684817 - 06/03/04 03:05 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
This is cute..... we have a 13 year old telling the factory people they don't know what their own products do.....
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#684818 - 06/03/04 03:50 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
 Quote:
I held down C D E. I Played a C an octave below, and the C D E did resonate softly.
If you've done this than you've created something that even the P250 can't do. The "D" would not resonate in this case on the P250.

I'll have a MP3 recording of the P250 demonstrating this feature within an hour. That will be my last post regarding this matter. The P120, P90, P60 do not have this capability.
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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#684819 - 06/03/04 03:51 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by p120mAn:
Mike, I held down C D E. I Played a C an octave below, and the C D E did resonate softly. I then tried some other notes, like Eb Gb, and I played Eb and octave below and it resonated.
[/b]
Dude, you are confused. You are hearing soundboard reverb. Read the product site again - it is clear that the P90 and P120 do not have string or soundboard resonance, although they both have the reverb effect. They *do* have a fourth sample layer that simulates both string and soundboard resonance, but you will only hear it when the damper is activated. You would not have been able to hear it in your experiment. This really ought to be called a "damper resonance" sample layer.

The P250 does have sample layers for both string and soundboard resonance and it does not depend on the state of the damper pedal. It does a much better job of simulating the mechanical interaction between notes, although it is still sample based and not modelled.

Ryan

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#684820 - 06/03/04 04:42 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
Well, Mike, whatever they're paying you, you certainly earn every penny.
_________________________
Gary

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#684821 - 06/03/04 04:53 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
Well, Mike, whatever they're paying you, you certainly earn every penny.
I agree!!!
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PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#684822 - 06/03/04 05:47 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
Thanks guys,

Unfortunately someone borrowed the P250 from our lab so I can't get a recording today. It may be back tomorrow.
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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#684823 - 06/03/04 06:09 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
p120Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 57
Loc: USA
Mike, you have caught were I tricked you, and I tested it today.

I played on my teachers Yamaha C5 grand today, held down C D E, and then striked C an octave below. The ONLY one that resonated was the C, not the D or E. You stated in a Harmany Central post that IF You held C D E down, and strike a C below, they would all resonate. That is wrong, i was tricking you in my post above.

For the string and soundboard resonance, the p120 has it. I played a C, striked a C below, and C resonated softly. I tried it on the C5 grand, and it did the same as the p120. Im sorry mike, I dont care if you work for yamaha, but I know for a fact the p120 has string resonance and soundboard resonance capabilities.

This is also my last post for this type of thread.

Regards,
p120dUdE
_________________________
www.newenglandmusic.biz.ly

The Yamaha P120 is da bomb! It rocks! It is superb, fantastic, awesome!

*Yamaha P120 Stage Piano*Yamaha CS1X Synthesizer

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#684824 - 06/03/04 06:20 PM Re: what's the difference between the Yamaha P90 and P120?
Mike Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Buena Park, CA
No, read my original post again. I said play a C MAJOR chord. FYI - Thats C, E and G. All three notes will resonate as the lower C note contains these harmonics. BTW, the C would be the loudest, the E and G would be much quieter.

Also re-read my post above as I correctly said that the "D" would not resonate at all.
_________________________
Mike Martin
Yamaha US

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