I wanted to hear from anyone who actually owns a Suzuki digital piano about their opinion of this product - sound, quality, ability to learn with it, feature set, etc.. In addition, has anyone noticed the Yamaha digital grand piano keyboard on sale at Costco? It appears to be a slimmed down version of the Clavinova for less than $700. Has anyone formed an opinion on it? Thanks for your feedback.

I've never seen any Suzuki piano, digital or
acoustic, but I've considered buying one
online, and would have no hesitation about
doing so sight-unseen. The reason for this
is that the Suzuki company makes quality
products in general, and I don't see how
they would ever put their brand name on
a bad piano.

I also would have no hesitation about buying
any piano from Costco. The other products
they sell are the same as the ones you get
anywhere else, and their pianos should be
no different.

Note that there is an extreme bias against
the Suzuki brand on these forums, which
causes various posters to post outright
and outrageous lies about their quality,
something to the tune of: "I walked
by one of their digitals in the store and
this caused the control panel to break off
and fall to the floor, and so forth."

As you can see, one can accuse posters of BIAS against the Suzuki without EVER seeing one himself (by his own admission). Nice.

Suzuki pianos are of low quality that do not deserve their price tag. I'm in agreement, that Suzuki makes quality products ... when it comes to motorcycles ... but pianos especially, are NOT what the brand would have you believe. Just recently I had a chance to try a Suzuki at Costco and it only confirmed the overall mediocre quality of the product. Especially the keyboard, the keys, the response / touch ... it's in my opinion a waste of money.

The Yamaha you're referring to is the YGP625, an OK keyboard (much better investment than the Suzuki), but I think you should check out Casio's PX575R for that price range (or even better, the new PX200 and PX800).

"a slimmed down version of the Clavinova for less than $700".

you probably saw a YDP model. check the model number and the specs, if you're considering it.

i agree with vitog, there's no base on talking about a brand of digital pianos without ever seeing it!

I haven't posted here in over a year and the first day back I see Gyro's still his old self posting his robotic, ignorant drivel! How can someone legitimately give the OK to an instrument they've never used! Better still, how can they then issue a warning against people who've actually used and determined a product to be of a substandard quality?! This is simply beyond logic. I guess some things will never change.

I don't think Suzuki musical instruments are made by the same Suzuki that makes cars, boats and motorcycles.

I haven't seen any Suzuki acoustic piano, but I've seen the digital ones at Costco. They are okay (not great, not bad) but they are not cheap/inexpensive either. A Casio PX110 is not as good looking but the keys feel better. I also prefer the Casio over the Yamaha DXG620 (? or something like) that at Costco.

Hey MDT,
We happen to sell the Suzuki digital pianos and believe they offer a great value to anyone who wants to purchase an affordable, but quality instrument. I was not alway impressed with their digital line, but over the last few years they have drastically improved.

Thanks,

Suzuki digital pianos are crap. Their dealer support for parts and service is non-existant. I have had experience with both acoustic and digital pianos and found them completely unexceptable. I rarely go to this extream in my comments, but this warrants this degree of disgust.
For months Suzuki had taken full page ads in the trade magazines advertising discounted dealer returns for resale. A distributor would have to accumulate a lot of "returned" stock to warrant a months long full page ad campaign.
Recently COSTCO announced significant reductions in its electronic products return policies. Any connection?

Yamaha digital at COSTCO is the DGX600 or DGX650 model. A lot of stuff for little money. I bears no resemblance to anything Clavinova, not even a YDP series. This is primarily exclusive model for COSTCO. Not bad to play around with, but "weighted action" is not authentic enough for serious learners IMO. GH3 action on Yamaha CLP230 and up is far superior.

OK. First two disclaimers:

1. I got my Suzuki Digital Piano SS-90 for free.
2. I am looking for a new Digital Piano to replace it.

But, the Suzuku Digital Piano I have is definitely not crap. In fact, it is my primary practice instrument when not playing on my acoustic grand.

It is fully featured including handy things like transposing function, song recording, pitch and mod wheels, etc. has a very realistic touch, has ok sound, serviceable polyphony (64), decent speakers & a very firm stand.

For the prices they sell for, they are a good deal. For the price I paid, they are a steal.

At least in Europe I believe that Suzuki service is managed by the old Hammond Organ people who Suzuki own, not the motorcycle guys. When we had a problem with the headphone jack on our Suzuki digital piano (if you can call a problem carelessly letting the headphone cable wrap around your ankle, then jumping up to answer the phone dragging the piano halfway across the room), the distributor came to our house to make the repair for free.

The Suzuki has been a welcome addition to our household and we plan to use it in one function or another for years to come, despite our plans to get the latest, greatest gadget to replace its primary function one of these days.

Hey Witold, so nice to have you back on the forum!

I'd like to add my small comment to the Suzuki issue. Two years ago, before I bought my first DP, I shopped around for a while for pre-owned, lightly used units, having no bias whatsoever as to the brand (as opposed to now, lol), and I had the opportunity to try out a clean, like-new Suzuki French Provincial spinet model.

For those of you who have children, you must be familiar with Fisher-Price toys? That is exactly how the Suzuki felt and sounded. I ran away as fast as I could.

Suzuki digitals remind me of the exquisite quality of Bontempi.You get what you play for.

I recently purchased a Suzuki Digital Grand piano online (S-350). Here is my professional review. I currently own several other digital pianos including a Yamaha Clavinovia, Motif EX8, MO6, and a Korg Triton Studio. My company owns a Yamaha C3 that we use for events. The Piano sound of the Suzuki is defiantly on par with the Yamaha Digital Pianos. It is rich and does not sound like a keyboard. It actually sounds like a medium size (5'5") Acoustic Grand piano. The actual sound was voiced from a Bosendorfer Grand Piano. I called Suzuki and spoke directly to a Tech to verify this claim. The keys feel like real piano keys and the action is almost identical to a real piano (actually far more real than my Clavinovia or Motif). Now, there are a few things that I would prefer about this Digital Piano. First, I think that they could have put slightly larger speakers in. Secondly, I think they tried to match the full volume of an Acoustic Grand piano too well. When you turn the volume all the way up it only gets slightly louder than a real Grand piano would get. Also, the bass could be a little deeper (though it sounds like a real piano, but not as deep and loud as the Roland Grand). Third, it has a very quiet hum when powered on (Hardly audible, but still there.) You can hear it a little more when you barely press a key down. 99% of people probably wouldn't even be able to hear it. The finish and build quality is outstanding (regardless of what anyone here has claimed). I looked at several of these (in-person) before making my purchase and did not find any of them to lack great build quality. On a final note, if you are looking for a Digital Baby Grand Piano that sounds almost identical to an acoustic piano then this is the one for you. If you are looking for a Digital piano that is REALLY loud and has really heavy bass (like an Electric Keyboard plugged into an Amp) then this isn't the piano for you. I give it a thumbs up.

Also, regarding Suzuki’s Service AFTER the sale. When the Piano was shipped to me, it came in three boxes. The Piano, Piano Legs, and Bench were all shipped in their own box. Everything was in perfect shape upon arrival except for 2 of the Bench Legs, which had some bad chips on them). The dealer I purchased it from in California told me to call Suzuki at their 1800 number and said they were really good about fixing things like this. I called the support line and instantly got a hold of a service tech who didn’t even need a receipt or pictures of the product. He shipped out two brand new legs overnight to resolve the issue. I have had NO support problems with Suzuki to date.

This all being said, I would completely agree with Gyro and his intial comment, regardless of him actually seeing or playing one. I have a home studio (hense the Korg and Motif) and I am very critical about quality and playability of an instrument. This fulfills both needs and then some.

Pros:
Very real Acoustic Grand Sound! (9 out of 10)
Excellent Build Quality! (10 out of 10)
Great feeling keys (9 out of 10)

Cons:
>Wish it would get louder (7 out of 10)
Though it gets every bit as loud as a real grand, I feel it should be able to get much
louder, being it’s a digital piano and all.
>Wish it had slightly larder speakers (7 out of 10)
I think having larger speakers would help on the low end. I probably wouldn’t care if I hadn’t of heard a Roland that had killer bass.
>Wish it did not have the very faint hum (8 out of 10)
It probably only would bother those with the best of hearing (which I have).

Some pictures.





And here is a picture of our Yamaha Grand that we use for events. This picture is from our Sinatra Event in Oct.

Great post, Iron Cobra. Welcome to pianoworld!

I must admit that despite flirting with the idea of getting a new digital piano and shopping and trying them out from time to time, that I spend most of my silent practice and play time on my Suzuki and it has been in use for 1-2 hours/day for going on six years now.

I understand your criticism of the volume controls. Ours has to be kept in an extremely narrow band between 5-10% of total available volume not to be too loud.

A lot of the critique of Suzuki on this board is from people who don't like their exclusive, non-traditional distribution arrangements (not unlike critique of Steinway with their exclusive stores and stencils) or who base their experience on hearsay reports of early problems (of which there were very many) or who simply cannot stand the cognitive dissonance that would arise from agreeing with Gyro on anything. That Suzuki might be improving as quickly as its acoustic piano brethren in China or that their lower price points might still yield a decent product doesn't seem to enter their mind.

Also, I find that they are less forgiving and easy to play well than say a Clavinova or Roland. However, I don't want a digital instrument to mask my inferior technique, I want it to help improve my technique which is always intended for transfer to playing my grand.

Finally, they do seem to be less built to withstand problems. Mine has been repaired several times. The last repair to my flaky power supply was done out of warranty but still for free.

Great pictures. I must however take offense to one element of your post: beverages teetering on the edge of an acoustic piano is a no-no in my book whether it is a Sinatra event or even a Dean Martin event.

Don't forget to update the "price paid" thread in the digital forum.

Great reply, thanks! I hope that my Suzuki remains trouble free and operational for years (or at least until I pony up the $45,000 I need for the Yamaha I wish to buy).

Regarding your comments about Suzuki. I agree with you. I think there is a comparison to be made here. Remember, in the past when you wanted to buy a Premium Luxury sedan you were limited to names like Mercedes and BMW and a few other select German or European branded cars? Well in the late 90s, a brand appeared on the market that turned the entire luxury car world on its head. That brand was Lexus (a division of Toyota). Lexus produced some of the most reliable and noteworthy luxury cars ever built and changed the status quo. Fast forward to today. Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, AUDI, Infiniti and Jaguar are all still considered the premium cars that you will expect to pay $50k+ for on the low end. All of a sudden, this economy car company out of S. Korea develops their own Luxury car designed to compete directly against cars costing 2x as much. Along comes the Hyundai Genesis. This car has all the same features and specs as it's far more expensive rivals, but ultimately gets all the criticism because it is Korean made and wears a Hyundai badge on the back. The people that actually go and buy one realize that they are getting a car that is every bit (and then some) as nice as its European or Japanese rival but paying 1/2 the price. There will be some people who will never drive a Hyundai because it says Hyundai and know that they use to only make economy cars and sub compacts. These same people will also be the ones that criticize the car without ever even seeing, touching, or driving it.

Sound familiar?

This story points out the following:
Lexus, Infiniti = Yamaha & Kawai
BMW, Mercedes = Steinway & BOSENDORDER
Hyundai Genesis = Suzuki

Oh, and we didn't know about the drink being on the piano until we saw these pictures from the photographer.

I can't comment on current Suzuki pianos.

I tried one in a showroom about six years ago, and it was closer to dreadful than to anything else.

At that time, there was obvious velocity switching/sample switching, and the damper pedal almost seemed disconnected from the piano.

Having said that, the first Datsun car (Nissan) that I saw in 1963 was a piece of crap.

The first Hyundai cars were a bit better - look at them now - they're first rate.

Another example? When Roger Williams started recording under the Kapp label, he used Baldwin pianos, and they were beautiful - they don't exist any longer, but prior to that they were not very good.

Things change, and I'll concede that Suzuki has changed too.

I think we need to keep our minds open in this fast changing world of electronics (and autos).

Glenn

Got to say I'm a little surprised at the prices of these Suzuki pianos, they ain't cheap! In the UK the cheapest model SS90 is almost £700! That's getting into FP4 or P140 territory so it had better be damned good!

No one pays full price for Suzuki.

Agree, but honestly, who pays full price for any musician equipment? I buy all my recording gear and digital pianos (except the Suzuki and CLP) from Guitar Center and Musiciansfriend. They are 30-80% off retail on everything everyday.

Generally I'd agree but I haven't been able to find anyone selling the piano action Suzukis (SS-90, SS-100, HP-97 and HG-425) for less than list price. In fact I can't find anywhere in the UK that sells them at all. Guitar Center and Musician's Friend don't list them on their websites either.

What would you expect to pay for an SS-90 out of curiosity? Can you point me to any retailers who stock them?

I don't know where you would be able to find one. I think www.musicland.au may carry them though.

I don't think the SS-90 is still a current model. One European distributor is/was (but they don't show Suzuki products for sale anymore):

http://www.hammondsuzuki.com/

These are the folks that did my repairs.

I wonder if Suzuki is still active in Europe...

Hmm, well I found a Suzuki UK website which suggests they are, can't find any dealers though.

suzukimusic.co.uk

Found a dealer for you.

http://www.musicalinstruments.com/products/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=809&idproduct=12402

Thanks for that! Still pretty expensive though.

From the internet, it doesn't appear that Suzuki is being marketed in Europe at the moment.

Some have said that the Williams is coming from the same factory. Perhaps you could check into it?

Suzukis were sometimes being used by dealers to give as free practice instruments to city dwellers buying acoustic grands. That's how I got mine, as a deal clincher. None of those stores I knew from then are still selling or gifting them (or still in business).

From speaking in-depth with the Suzuki North American guys they indicated the following.

Suzuki Acoustic Grand Pianos are made in one of four factories they own and operate.
A Korean, Japan, China, and North American factory.

The overwhelming majority come from their China based factory. All of their Grand Pianos that are sold in North American are assembled in North America at the North America Suzuki Piano Assembly Plant.

Many of the parts used are German or Japanese made and are developed through a partnership with Yamaha. All bushings and dampers are very high quality Japanese felt. Their hammers are made from seasoned hardwoods and the hammer heads and shanks are covered in 100% Japanese virgin wool felt. They also use hand wound solid copper German Roslau strings, Japanese Maple 17 ply pin blocks and other ultra high end features.

All of their Digital Grand Pianos made after 2002 share parts with Kawai such as the weighted hammer action keyboard with velocity-sensitive keys. They also voice all their Digital Grand Pianos from a 9'6" Bosendorfer Model 290 Imperial Grand Piano.

They are one of the few Piano manufacturers who is ISO 9001 certified.

I hope all this information helps dispel some of the rumors regarding their pianos.

Perhaps not : )

Best regards,

Interesting stuff, thanks to IronCobra and theJourney for the info.

I thought this was the "Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards" forum. Why are you talking about acoustic pianos?

Anyway, the points you made mainly relate to parts. But most agree that design, skilled labor, and attention to detail make the difference among acoustic pianos.

L Horwinkle,

I wouldn't question anyones opinion on their design, skilled labor, and/or attention to detail if there were more unbiased exampled of a lacking in any of those areas. Every Suzuki Digital Baby grand I've seen has had great craftsmanship, sound, and looked outstanding.

I personally own one as well as some very high end brands many of you like to compare against it. I think I have the most unbiased opinion of the group and I haven't seen any problems with anything you've mentioned.

So, that leaves a question..... What kind of car do you drive? Be carefull how you answer, because if you don't drive a Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Mercedes or other high end car, I might just assume that your car lacks propper design, skilled labor, and attention to detail that makes the difference among cars (which of course is untrue.)

Your analogy doesn't apply. Modern products using modern materials and modern designs are one thing. But pianos are basically a 19th century design, made mostly of wood. Much of the work is done by hand. Great care is needed in fitting, carving, adjusting, voicing, etc. (How many cars are made that way?)

I have nothing to say about Suzuki one way or the other, since I've never played or even seen one. My only point is that the parts used are only one aspect of the quality question.

What signs of craftsmanship are you referring to?

Signs of craftsmanship? Design, function, sound, quality of assembly, fit and finish are what I'm referring to.

Brother, I am also a Drummer and a Guitarist. I have a drumkit worth almost $12,000 (that's alot in turns of Drums). I know quite ability about fitting, carving, adjusting, voicing, etc.

And my analogy applies perfectly. I've owned 6 Lexus' (and currently own a 2008 Lexus GS460). If you think that there isn't MORE precise "fitting, carving, and adjusting" in producing a high end luxury car (or any car for that matter) than you are poory mistaken. You piano will never be subjected to the trama of a vehicle, and thus will never undergoe the riggers needed in design something of that caliber.

And, correction to your statement. Most new pianos, though assembled by hand, have parts that are built by machines and molds. This is the same process when building a car. The 32 very detailed wooden pieces in my car were also handmade.

I know this isn't a car forum, but I think the point makes valid sense when having this conversation.

Since you have never played or seen one don't you feel that making initial statement of "But most agree that design, skilled labor, and attention to detail make the difference among acoustic pianos." is a bit misguided?

Again, I'm not trying to defend a product only because I want to see the underdog win. I'm trying to defend a product that I use, play, own, can touch, and can see.

I would actually go as far as to say that Suzuki Pianos are probably assembled with a higher level of skill than many. Why? It comes down to economic. The deeper the pocket of the company, the more money can be put towards fit and finish. The machines and labor that some other piano companies might not be able to afford are probably easily affordable by a company as large as Suzuki.

I have played several Suzuki acoustics last year next to another Chinese brand, Brodmann. Where it counts, in sound and touch. the Suzuki acoustics were pretty darn poor, and that is being very polite. They were also pretty cheap. I am not sure what the relevance is of the Suzuki acoustics to their digital pianos as I understand these are completely different factories...

Exactly. What signs of these can you point out?

We're talking about pianos, not drums.

Let's not get stuck on analogies. Drums and cars are not pianos.

Parts, yes. But assembly is key. I think you should learn more about piano manufacturing before you sputter on about this.

Nope. Not at bit.
Design, skilled labor, and attention to detail are crucial. What makes you think otherwise?

And I'm neither attacking nor defending Suzuki. I'm just pointing out that skill matters.

I do not dispute that. But you give no specifics. "Deeper pockets", even if true, is not pertinent.

Anyway, I've never seen any information about Suzuki's methods. But it appears that you've not, either.

Any, what if any research have you done? None I bet.

Question, what would it take to convince you? Would you need an Airplane ticket to their factory? Would you need to speak directly to their Engineers and Craftsmen? If that's your logic then you probably can't vouch for ANY piano manufacturer.

I OWN ONE! And I also own and have played many of the "high end" brands that would be compared against it. I own a company which owns a C3 Yamaha 6' Acoustic Grand. I personally own a Clav, Mofit, MO, and Korg Triton. I can see the craftsmanship by going to any one of them and looking at them. Shoot, I could take them apart if I needed to (I'm also an Aerospace Engineer, I think I know a little about craftsmanship).

You litterly have nothing to even speak on. You admit you've never seen one let alone played one. Everyone who has commented seams to be looking for bad things to say about them rather than basing their information on fact.


Negative, we are talking about skilled craftsmanship. It's a pretty bias statement to assume that only pianists know what that is.

You're right, but they are a great example of other things that you can directly compare when talking about Brand Recognition and assembly process. My analogy is spot on and you have been proving that point ever since you started debated without any facts.

Now, this if funny. You are questioning my knowledge of "piano manufacturing" when clearly I have done much more research than you on the product you are criticizing. That's funny and a bit hypocritical. As you said "Assembly is key" so I ask you, point out any process in the assembly of a Suzuki piano that is sub par..... Wait, you've never seen one, let alone played one.

And again, where is your factual information stating that their attention to detail, design, and skilled labor is so bad? You don't have any.

You are attacking them. I can guarantee if this thread was talking about Yamaha pianos (which I also play) you wouldn't be making the claims you are making against them.

Actually, I have proven my point. Purchasing better quality parts means nothing if the assembly of those parts is sub par (as you like to say), however, wouldn't it be resonable to say that they have the means to assemble their pianos just as well, if not better than many of their competators who don't have the funds they do? A little common sense here.

Why does Toyota make better cars than Kia? They have more money and better means to do it. (another great comparison).

I have plenty of information regarding their "methods". Within reason, what are you wanting to know? I am an information nut. I research anything I buy (or defend) extensively.

Regards,

Oh, here is a little information regarding their build process. Yes, I know it's not as detailed you probably would demand, but it's more than you already know.

I definatly respect your opinion. I have played their Conservatory Acoustic Grand. I would compare it almost directly to the feel and action of a Baltwin or some other midline brand. It actually felt better than the 6' Kawai they had. I personally love the feel of a Yamaha. The pedal feel and action I feel are different all around from any other piano. I think we all look for something different in Grand Pianos (digital or acoustic). When I played the Kawai, I personally like the feel of the Suzuki and the Yamaha over it. I think overall the Yamaha has a "tighter" feel.

Convince me of what? The point is that quality products come from quality manufacturing methods.

You seem very defensive of Suzuki, and you feel that I am attacking them. I'm not. Read the posts above. I started by saying that there's more to making a piano than just using good parts. And, you seem to agree that craftsmanship matters. Then we're agreed.

I've never said as much as one word about Suzuki product quality. (Others have criticized. Maybe you're confusing my posted statements with the posted criticisms leveled by others?)

On the other hand, you claimed that their products show the results of good craftsmanship. I asked for signs, and you replied with "deep pockets", etc. That didn't seem pertinent.

Subsequently you replied with "I own one". Okay, that puts you in a position to raise a point. For instance, you might say that you bought a Suzuki and found it to be better prepared by the manufacturer than other pianos you've seen or used. (I don't know if that was your experience, but this is just an example.) But you didn't say anything.
Again, you seem to think I'm criticizing Suzuki. In fact I'm neither criticizing Suzuki, nor praising them (or any other maker). I never said Suzuki is "sub par". I never said that their methods are lacking in any way whatsoever.

I make only one point ... that skill/craftsman ship matters. And I only asked one question ... what indications of quality do you see in your Suzuki? And I followed with one other point ... I rejected your notion about "deep pockets". The "pockets" don't matter. You could have discussed things like:
-- How does Suzuki select their lumber?
-- How do they prepare it?
-- How much time do they spend tuning and voicing a piano?
-- How does that differ between their high- and low-priced pianos?
-- And on and on.

Instead, you seem to feel "attacked". You shouldn't. I said earlier that (a) I have no information about Suzukis and (b) I have no opinion about their quality.

I sincerely apologies for the misinterpretation on my part. I understand your point now. At first, it appeared to me that you were jumping on the band wagon with other "unsubstantiated" Suzuki haters. I'm sorry.

It is interesting hear from some who say they played one in a store or saw one at Costco and played it there at criticized it. It's interesting because some of the same people who would criticize their pianos could played a Kawai that sounded, felt, and performed identically and brag about how the Kawai performs but talk trash about the Suzuki. The point should be made that anyone would be hard pressed to find any two piano manufactures in the world that had the exact same feel, response, action, and design as another manufacturer.

Sorry again for my misunderstanding.

Back on topic though,

I did post an article directly from their site answering many of the questions you posted just now.

Regards

I am confused after reading this long conversation I feel like I have no better idea on if this piano is good or terrible!

One issue as I see it is many people are comparing similar products with dramatic differences in their hearing abilities. I, for example, am not a perfect-pitch, perfect-tone kinda guy, but I do like the touch to be solid, the action smooth and some progressive weighting along the keys. Does the Suzuki have this because if it does it could be interesting despite the fact it will obviously sound much worse than a $30k Roland KR Grand!

Yes, Suzuki Digital Baby Grands (and many of their other lines) have Advanced Balanced Graded Hammer Action that is Velocity Sensitive. And they sample their sounds directly from 9'6" Bosendorfer Model 290 Imperial Grand Piano.

I added a Yamaha Subwoofer via RCA Outputs to add a bit more low end to mine. Though, without the Subwoofer it still sounds fantastic.

Awhile back I was looking at digital baby grands
and saw an ad for Valdesta C500..I asked a poster who owned one for a few years..said I like the sound of the Valdesta but indicated she liked the Feel/Touch of the Suzuki better if she had to do it over she would've bought the Suzuki..
said the keys action of the Valdesta "were a bit mushy"

Don't take this the wrong way IronCobra, but you are the only person strongly advocating the Suzuki...is there anyone else who has played it and has an opinion on this forum?

I think it's great to have more people contributing here about their experiences with a brand we don't experience firsthand that often. Having said that, I must take serious issue (for the purpose of trying to disseminate factual information for later searches on PW) about a lot of what you've posted regarding their acoustic pianos.

Regarding your previous statements, a little followup is seriously warranted:

Originally posted by IronCobra:
"Suzuki Acoustic Grand Pianos are made in one of four factories they own and operate.
A Korean, Japan, China, and North American factory."
"All of their Grand Pianos that are sold in North American are assembled in North America at the North America Suzuki Piano Assembly Plant."

Where exactly is this North American factory? It has been stated here in the past that they don't have their own and subcontract the work to other existing factories. Enquiring minds want to know!

"Many of the parts used are German or Japanese made and are developed through a partnership with Yamaha."

In a forum with over 38,000 members-- a LOT of whom work in the industry, you're the first to suggest a partnership. Does Yamaha have a financial stake in Suzuki? Why wouldn't that be prominently displayed on their marketing literature as an asset?

"All bushings and dampers are very high quality Japanese felt. Their hammers are made from seasoned hardwoods and the hammer heads and shanks are covered in 100% Japanese virgin wool felt. They also use hand wound solid copper German Roslau strings, Japanese Maple 17 ply pin blocks and other ultra high end features."

This is all marketing speak and not necessarily indicative of "ultra high-end" features. Every piano maker comments on the high quality of their felt. What does "virgin" wool mean, exactly? The number of layers in a pin block is irrelevant as a tool for assessing its quality. I'm pretty sure every piano maker uses hardwoods in the hammers and shanks too. "Select hardwoods" is not a term that is used by marketers of "ultra high-end" pianos.

"They are one of the few Piano manufacturers who is ISO 9001 certified."

I see this certification listed on a lot of different products and don't really know what it would mean for an acoustic piano. It's not a term seen in connection with any of the high-end builders in my experience. Is Bosendorfer an ISO 9001 manufacturer?

"I hope all this information helps dispel some of the rumors regarding their pianos."

I don't know where all their factories are. I was informed by their people that they have a factory in Laredo, TX that is one of a few Suzuki owned assembly plants in the US. I have personally see a very large Suzuki building in Laredo, though I am not 100% sure if that is what he was speaking about.

The same technician (whom I asked many questions) was the one who indicated their use of Yamaha co-developed parts. There are probably reasons why they can't advertise outright the use of other companies parts. For the same reasons Kia doesn't advertise the use of Toyota transmissions in their vehicles. There is probably something in a contract somewhere. You may not be aware, but Yamaha and Suzuki have MANY partnerships in Japan and use many of the same vendors for parts on almost everything they develope. It wouldn't be a stretch for them to stare vendors for piano parts.

As far as the marking jargon used in their development process, I can't speak to. I can only list many of the things they make available.

Being that ISO 9000 is a standard for quality management, it probably does contribute to some level of assurment in quality.

Here is the actual rules regarding 9001 certification.

ISO 9001:2000 Quality management systems – Requirements is intended for use in any organization which designs, develops, manufactures, installs and/or services any product or provides any form of service. It provides a number of requirements which an organization needs to fulfill if it is to achieve customer satisfaction through consistent products and services which meet customer expectations. It includes a requirement for the continual (i.e. planned) improvement of the Quality Management System, for which ISO 9004:2000 provides many hints.

Most people have never heard of ISO 9000 (or any of the other ISO protocols related to manufacturing).

I think ISO 9000 compliance is mandatory for manufacturers in Europe, I think. Not so in America, but many American makers choose to tighten up to meet the specs anyway.

Wikipedia sums it up as follows:

I don't know anything about Suzuki pianos, but any manufacturing organization that is ISO 9000 certified is top notch in my book. Getting certified is not an easy nor inexpensive process. Most companies without deep pockets just can't afford to go through the process. Every detail of the process must be documented and then closed loop corrective actions must be put in place to assure continual improvements in the processes. Just the monitoring and documenting is very expensive.

IMO, the biggest benefits of ISO 9000 are repeatable processes and continual quality improvement. ISO 9000 certified companies must track quality output closely and when a problem is detected, they must implement corrective action and formally document those corrective actions. I know this seams like common sense but you would be surprised how costly this is to actually do and how many companies do not formally do this. The result is that ISO 9000 companies have much lower variances in their outputs. The result is that quality of output is much more consistent. Again, it may seem intuitive to do business this way, but it is costly and many small companies cannot afford to do so.

We have been and are in an era of changing paradigms when it comes to manufacturing. Poor quality is no longer acceptable in the marketplace. Companies have to produce quality products to stay competitive. IMO small family owned manufacturing businesses simply do not have the resources or skills to compete. Very few people are willing to spend the high 5 and 6 figures for a machine created by a small set of craftsmen. Yet the mass sales that are needed to stay in business will not permit crap from a mass manufacturer. Products need to be high quality and reasonably priced to succeed.

The best answer to this dilemma is a 1st class, deep pocket, large manufacturer. Because of labor costs, this necessarily means far east manufacturing. While this was once equated with low quality, it is no longer the case. Some good quality stuff is coming out of the far east. I recently built a kit airplane that was fabricated in Indonesia - first class work all the way around.

Again, I am not advocating Suzuki or any other brand of piano. But from my experience with ISO manufacturing, I would blindly purchase a product coming out of a ISO 9000 plant before I would purchased a similar product from a small family owned manufacturer who is not ISO 9000 certified.

Is a $10K Suzuki as fine a product as a $125K Steinway? Probably not, but I don't think that are the options on the table here.

well put.

Physicsteacher,

Thanks for that information- very interesting.
The current reality of the high-end of the acoustic piano industry hearkens back to the idea of family ownership, low volume slow-paced production, and extensive hand labor. Even Yamaha and Kawai use a different manufacturing process (like that I just described) for their very best instruments. A serious pianist would never buy an acoustic instrument sight-unseen.

Perhaps not today, but one day he/she may not have a choice. Unless of course there rises a great number of "serious pianists" demanding hand crafted pianos sold through traditional channels. I don't see that happening. What I see is the quality of the mass produced products getting better and better and continued pressure on the high end producers. I predict the ranks of the traditional craftsmen will continue to fall to the point a high end piano becomes a special order product. To play before purchase may not be an option, except of course on the Suzuki at Costco.

All the best.

Most high end pianos seem to be special ordered anyway already because people want a certain finish, etc.

The nice thing about the Costco sales model is that everything is 100% returnable if you are not satisfied. Try that buying a Kawai or Grotrian-Steinweg at your local piano store. Personally, I would buy a Yamaha acoustic from Costco before I would buy a Suzuki.

In the age of $500 transatlantic air tickets and $125,000 hand crafted top grand pianos, serious customers just fly to the factory and pick out their piano there.

I was in town today checking out a couple of instrument dealers hoping to find a Yamaha Clavinova, Roland HP-20X, or Kawai digital piano to try out but had no such luck, the best digital piano any of the stores I visited carried was a Suzuki (upright DP, not grand). I didn't check what model it was but the dealer was asking around $1300 for it. My opinion of it was that the Grand Piano sound was good for the price, and it had variations for each sound, such as Grand Piano 2, Honky-Tonk Piano etc. which I thought all sounded pretty good, very clear and crisp. Not fantastic mind you, but decent enough. The other voices all had 3 variation settings as well I believe, though I only tried E. Piano and Strings. The E. Piano was fairly decent, but not as good as the Grand Piano sound. I thought the strings voice sounded like garbage, and the keys felt terrible, which was my main complaint. Extremely fake and plasticy feeling, they were weighted but it felt extremely clunky and awkward for me to play on, and the keys were quite heavy and playing just did not feel right *at all*. But like I said the piano sounds were pretty good and the built-in speakers could get plenty loud (I turned it up about 70% of the way and it was almost louder than I would want it lol, so no complaint there).

Like I said, I don't know what model it was but it was a $1300 upright Suzuki DP, in summary my opinion was: Good piano sounds (for the price), nice loud speakers, *terrible* action on the keys, and pretty crummy strings voice. Overall not overly impressed, but certainly not too disappointed considering it was $1300, the only REALLY bad thing that bothered me about it in the 5 minutes or so I fiddled around on it was the terrible action on the keys, which I thought was a real deal-breaker, it was BAD. Though I don't know if this is true for all of Suzuki's models as this was the only one I've played, it is quite possible that they have far superior actions on their digital grands, I just don't know personally. I also don't know what year this model was put out (I didn't really ask too many questions while I was there as I wasn't really interested in purchasing it) but I'd *guess* no earlier than 2000. I don't know how this would compare to a similarly priced Yamaha / Casio as I haven't tried one yet. But I personally think it would be more advisable to save up a little bit longer and spend an extra $400-$600 to get a good model DP from a good brand like Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai rather than the Suzuki (that is, if you already know you plan on sticking with piano for years to come and not just dropping it after a few months). This is all my opinion of course, and I have not played the others in person yet but have done loads of research and listening to samples online and this is based on what I've read, though obviously I can't say for certain yet.

Was really hoping to try a Yamaha, Roland, or Kawai today but unfortunately no one in the city I visited (pop. 50,000) was carrying them for some reason (turns out most of the piano dealers there were pretty small-time). Guess I'd better try a different city later on and call ahead of time to see what they carry.

EDIT:[/b]
I forgot to mention this, but it is possible that there was a setting to adjust the touch on the key-action of the Suzuki DP I tried, but I wasn't in the store very long and didn't check for this feature. I doubt it would have helped greatly though, the action was not very good.

Iron Cobra,
I am glad you are happy with your Suzuki product. Ownership satisfaction is what is important. Ordinarily I would not rock the boat with a happy owner, but you have posted very stridently several things that I take issue with.

I have had considerable experience with these products and found them to be lacking. I am not a fan. I will state this up front.

I do not believe there is any U.S. stateside Suzuki factory. There may be a shipping/receiving/warehouseing facility. There is a U.S. distributorship. There is some kind of repair facility. It is my understanding that Suzuki acoustic pianos are built under contract with one or more Chinese manufacturers. It is also my understanding that the digital pianos are built under contract with one or more Chinese manufacturers.

It would see the the bulk of your information re. Suzuki has come from their printed material, website, sales presentations, and from speaking to their "people." There are those of us with real hands on experience that have a different viewpoint.

The fact there are few, if any, U.S. retailers for these products except COSTCO speaks volumes. Any time a distributor has to take out full page ads in trade magazines to resell returned and refurbished units doesn't speak well either.

In the US, Yamaha and Roland sell the low-to-mid range goods through band/music stores, such as Guitar City and Sam Ash. You won't find the Yamaha Clavinovas or the Roland HP-series there. (Not sure about the Kawais.)

To find those you must go to a piano dealer. That's the way it is in the US for their high-end DPs. (No internet sales either.) The mfg web site can help you locate a dealer, or check your local business listings for a piano dealer in your town.

In the US, Yamaha and Roland sell the low-to-mid range goods through band/music stores, such as Guitar City and Sam Ash. You won't find the Yamaha Clavinovas or the Roland HP-series there. (Not sure about the Kawais.)

To find those you must go to a piano dealer. That's the way it is in the US for their high-end DPs. (No internet sales either.) The mfg web site can help you locate a dealer, or check your local business listings for a piano dealer in your town.

Thanks for the tips. It sort of makes it a hassle (at least for me in the country), it's too bad I can't just order online the same way I could if I wanted a YDP-223 or CE200 or something. I actually visited 1 piano dealer but like I said, a lot of the dealers around here are small-time (and this was an hour from where I live, my area only has a pop. of around 5,000, I went to one with around 50,000 to shop)... Anyways, it was a tiny shop and all they sold were small spinets (not substantially better than my own spinet at home) and the one Suzuki DP. Depressing! I would have loved to have bought a DP from them too, the guy who owned it was very friendly and was not trying to force any sales down my throat, we just held casual conversation while I was there, so I would have loved to have given him business buuut he doesn't carry what I'm wanting unfortunately.

I guess I'd better make sure to call around before I make any trips next time, there are a few other small cities about an hour in other directions from where I live, and there's a chance they may have what I'm wanting. If that doesn't turn up anything my only option is to take a 3 hour trip into a real, large city.

Ah well, I'm just airing my frustrations, sorry lol. I know it's worth the trip to make sure I get something I'm happy with I just wish there was an easier way. And I realize after typing this up now how ridiculous I sound sighing over 1-3 hour trips to scout out some piano dealers but I don't get out much. :p

You may already know this, but the "adjustable" touch settings on a DP will not change the actual feel of the keyboard itself. It will only change how the instrument reacts to how heavy or light you are playing. The keys will feel the exact same whether you have it on Heavy, Light, or Medium.

Ah, I was actually not too sure. I haven't had much hands-on experience with DPs yet. Thanks for the tip.

Here's a link to Suzuki R-21 through Sam's Club.

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=415639&pCatg=5861

I haven't been able to find ANY reviews of these models. Anybody know anything about this one? Thanks.

Celia

Iron Cobra, in your original review you mentioned that the Suzuki S-350 did not have as loud a bass as a Roland. Which Roland were you comparing it to? Do you still prefer the Suzuki over the Roland?

I was listening to the ABF recital today and the Roland FP-7 sounded pretty good to me. I also was at Costco yesterday and noticed some new digital pianos there and briefly looked at them, but didn't notice the brand. I'll have to take a closer look next time.

i would definatly say the Roland is a better piano. I personally wouldn't spend the $12k that it costs to purchase one though. The Suzuki looks great, sounds great, and has ok action and feel when playing. The Roland will defiantly be a higher end piano with many features that the Suzuki may lack. however, I would expect that for a piano that costs 6x more.

Much of this three page thread discussed Suzuki acoustic pianos. These may or may not have any relationship to observations made on digital pianos. Separate factories, etc. Clearly, IronCobra owns an impressive stable of digital products and should be in a position to draw comparisons in touch and tone production. I am glad he has a positive experience.

It would appear that his only experience with Suzuki acoustics has come from brochure information and discussions with Suzuki folks on the phone or on line. There are few if any outlets where one can actually play and asses a Suzuki acoustic without actually ordering one and taking delivery. I would caution anyone drawing parellels between the two product lines.

I personally just went through an extended search for my first digital piano, and while I have never played or even seen a Suzuki piano, and I confirm that from my research that the product is not product directly by Suzuki. Roland, for example doesn't produce their grand piano cabinets, but the majority of their product is made by Roland where the Suzuki product is completely out-sourced, so that is NEVER a good sign for a quality product.

Secondly, most retailers of Suzuki don't have the ability to negotiate, so the price on these units are high when you consider you can actually go to a local dealer and purchase a Kohler for the same price. Why would you then buy a Suzuki from Costco? Kohler KD-150's can be had for 3 grand and less.

But for me this was the biggest issue, why would I buy a Suzuki (no dealer network, no name recognition etc) when good Roland's and Kawai's can be had all over the place in the second hand market as well as in 2008 floor models? Suzuki's are for when the economy is good and the name brands are pulling the margins they target in their marketing meetings during product launch. Recessions are times to buy overstocked named brands..... IMHO.

Suzuki DPs may or may not be good products, but I don't see how that is affected by outsourcing.

Do you own a cell phone? It doesn't matter what brand ... manufacturing is outsourced to companies like Foxconn. Giant, and Flextronics, with major operations in China. Likewise many other consumer electronic products.

Are these poor products?

I won't service Suzuki digitals.

I'll let it go at that.

Ken

I just finishing up servicing a Suzuki digital baby grand and was looking for some information about it. However, it seems I am more knowledgable about the inner workings of a digital piano than any of the posters here, so I will try to offer some unbiased descriptions of the technical aspects of them.
First, the electronics. Didja see the movie,"Armageddon", when Bruce Willis is up at the space station and the crazy Russian cosmonaut is banging on the panel, screaming,"Doesn't matter if its Russian or American, it's still the same cheap Japanese parts!" Well, that,s not exactly true of the space station, but it is true of electric pianos. They are computers. They have different keyboards and a better soundcard, but many similarities otherwise. And just like soundcards, a 24 bit piano will sound better than a 16 bit one. Across the brands, they use the same quality parts as all consumer electronics.
The biggest difference is number of amplifier channels and size and quantity of speakers. Your ears and the specs will tell you about this part. The unseen part is shielding of the electronics. Yamahas are shielded. Most others are not. This is a critical factor if you live on transmitter hill or near a radio station.
Previous posts mentioned ISO 9000 certification. This has become important in the electronics industry to prevent counterfeit parts from being used as they are tracked from factory to wharehouse to end user.
Electronics are easy to judge by ear and give very few problems in the digital section. Power supplies are a different matter. Remote supplies or "wall warts" are usually good for a few years before the cords go bad. In general, power supplies and amplifier channels are an infrequent source of failure. The only speakers I have had to repair had liquid poured in them.
The mechanisms of electric pianos are not as robust as string pianos. They are made of plastic and steel and all brands of electric pianos I work on, Yamaha, Suzuki, Roland and Kawai have had problems with design that have vexed their hardworking designers.
Early Yamaha clavinovas had keys breaking. Rolands had hammers breaking off. Kawai had squeaky keys. Suzuki had stiff hammers. All of them have addressed the problems and fixed their designs to hold together better.
The common issue that I see is a manufacturing process where a piece of metal has plastic cast around it to form the weighted hammer. The diffferential of expansion between the two materials leads to cracking of the plastic. This occurs in the hammer pivots of the Suzuki and the weights of the Rolands. Kurzweil hammers are also affected to a degree by the cracking plastic.
These early designs have been changed for better reliability. The construction style of the weight seems to affect the lightness of the action. The total weight and the length it is distanced from the pivot seems to govern these properties. One of my customers commented that when he got tired of playing his Yamaha, he switched to his Kawai and could keep going with the light action. The biggest difference I found in the action was the difference in hammer design. The Yamaha uses a long steel bar with a U-bend in it. The Kawai had a lead weight at the end of a plastic arm, concentrating the weight at the far tip of the hammer. The trade-off is that the Kawai arm is weak and the Yamaha is very strong. Performance or reliability is your choice again.
The issues with Suzuki plastic is a bit different, The cast plastic is the bearing hub for the hammer pivot. The shaft that it rotates on is 5/16" aluminum with two slots down the length of it to carry lubrication. First, the plastic is under a lot of pressure as the key depresses it because the key pushes the hammer close to its center of rotation. This pressure abrades the plastic bearing surface and eventually, cracks appear. It also squeezes the plastic, making the bearing hub a bit wider, until it rubs against the carrier and sticks. The slots on the shaft caused problems in early Suzukis when the slot rotates to the high pressure area of the hammer bushing. A hard key hit can notch the bushing as the metal bites into it because Suzuki didn't deburr the slot when it was cut. Then it jams the hammer. The worst part was when the edge of the slot deburred itself and left aluminum shavings embedded in the plastic bushing. They now deburr the slot, but I have seen no method to keep the slot from rotating into the critical pressure area.
The other common issue with Suzukis that irritates people is the feel of the keys. More than any other electric piano in my experience, Suzukis depend on the lubrication between the key and the hammer to maintain the proper feel. There is a platform about 1/4"x1/2" that slides along the hammer pin. Suzuki uses a small amount of silicon grease there to lubricate the sliding motion that accompanies the downward motion of the key. Unfortunately, the grease either melts and runs out or there was't enough to start with. I used lubriplate 105 engine rebuilding grease on the keys and hammer pivots without any problems. I wish I could find a good silicone grease, but haven't found any yet.
The key is to keep your Suzuki out of direct prolonged sunlight. The temperature of the black case will cause temperatures in the piano to soar and melt out the grease.
Repairing these kinds of problems is a matter of finding a tech with the right experience to tackle the job. Same as finding the right kind of doctor for your ailment. Service is coordinated by the factory reps and that is the first place to start. While Yamaha seems to have the most robust service capability, all manufacturers have technical reps at their import offices to maintain some semblance of customer service. Parts availibility is dicey though and may have to wait for an overseas shipment if they can't rob a part off one sitting in their office. Be aware though, manufacturers, Yamaha included, will have very few parts for units over 7 years old.
No, I won't work on your piano unless you live in the little town I live in Orgeons high desert.
In terms of design,I think I've highlighted those issues. As far as quality of workmanship, the Suzuki keybeds show signs of hand finishing with the keys being shimmed for evenness. The new hammers are heavier at the bass end now. an improvement over the early uniform hammers. The woodwork, while very shiny, is of TV cabinet quality inside on all the electric pianos I've worked on. This help to control the resonance of the piano, which is really a speaker cabinet.
I hope this helps to put some facts behind this discussion and now I think I'll git back to this keybed and finish tuning it up.

Great post!

So, if someone with a Suzuki digital piano would start to have the problem where keys are "sticking" (returning to position slowly, not returning, leaving tone generator activated) are you saying that the problem is likely a lubrication issue and that the keyboard is serviceable by lubricating the keys?

In a word, no. While just relubrication of the key platform will work for high initial resistance to the key moving, the problem you describe will need refurbishing the hammer arms. Dissassemble the piano and Unplug and remove the keybed. Remove the locking plates behind the keys. Push the keys back to remove them from their mounting slots. Do all the white keys first. then remove the black keys. Be sure to keep the little hammer pin covers in order as the hammers are different thicknesses. Remove the switch circuit boards. Then remove the black hammer arm carriers. Note the different length screws here. Now pull the shafts out of the carrier. Number the hammers with a sharpie to keep them in order. It will probably be stiff to remove the shafts, but it should slide in easily when you are done. An electric screwdriver really helps with disassembly, but use a manual for reassembly.
Ream out roughened bushings with a 5/16" reamer. A sharp drill in the drill press works well. dull the cornerd of the drill so it doesn't cut the bushing surface. Then run the arm up and down the meduim speed drill for just a couple seconds to smooth it out. Keep it perpendicular to munimize wobble. Check often.
Then check the width of the bushing at it's widest point. confirm you have enough clearance in the mounting slot. With wear, the bushing gets wider. If it is tight, use a flat file and file away the thickness until it fits in the slot smoothly.
Cracks in the plastic of the hammer arm can be filled with super glue to reinforce the plastic. Cracks inside the bushing may need replaced arms.
The shaft that the hammers rotate on must be cleaned and polished with steel wool. The slots must be smoothly deburred as well as the ends of the shafts. I have seen the aluminum shafts replaced with steel once.
Lubricate each hammer bushing with a dollop of Lubriplate 105. Coat the shaft as well, insuring that the slots are filled with lubricant. You want as much as you can get into the workings of the hammer bushings. The slots should be positioned a 9 and 3 o'clock.
Like a car mechanic, most won't consider changing only one piston. An entire rebuild is called for when doing this kind of work. So, all the keys should be examined and refurbished. As well as the mechanical rebuild, the silicone switch assemblies should be cleaned at this time as well. Isopropyl alcohol will not damage the circuit contacts and a good scrubbing on the black contacts on the circuit board will improve playability. The rubber portion of the switch is more delicate to handle, but alcohol will do the trick. Not rubbing alcohol, 100% isopropyl is the ticket. The silicone switch tower occasionally splits around the ring and in this case the switch strip must be replaced. Claen all debris from around the strips. Reassemble the switch strips carefully so as not to puncture the strip as you are inserting the mounting pins. A stepped pin that pushes the center a bit then hits the shoulder to prevent too much streching works. A square connector pin with a plastic header around it is what I use.
Then take a toothbrush to the felts where the keys have compressed it. Check to ensure that all the felt glue is intact.
Be careful on reassembly as the plastic can't take much torque. Stripped screws can be mended with a short piece of wire inserted in the hole before the screw.
Good luck and may your Suzuki sing again.

TimB, in the time since this post, have you seen any S-350 or MG-350 models? How would you compare their keyboard action and sound to that of a decent piano? What about other digitals for $2-3K? This digital piano looks tempting, but I can't find a local store where I could try one.

Does anyone else have an informed opinion on these Suzuki models?

And, we still have never heard Gyro attempt to play a decent concerto (perhaps one by Rachmaninoff?) on his Williams Overture piano.

Here is a link to a review:
http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/2011/03/suzuki-digital-piano-review-r21-dp1000.html