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#687200 - 12/19/08 10:16 PM Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
I spent a year researching and analyzing pianos for my 15 year old child who is a musical prodigy. I read Fines book and everything as I am basically ignorant musically. Her primary instrument is the french horn. She also plays clarinet, sax, that marching horn thing, piano and is now taking violin lessons so that she can better write music for her compositions. I made the mistake of buying her Sibelius software to write music and she took off with it.
Here's the problem. I need to get her a piano to practice on. After much research and hanging out on here, I decided that digital was the way to go for numerous reasons. I even got a local dealer to give a good deal on one. When I asked her to go look at it, she refused! She turned her nose up at it. Said she needed an acoustic. I countered with they have everything from Grands to Digitals in the store, just come look and play. Nope....ain't happening. Question: What sources or persons quoted online, etc., are there that I can use to convince her that a digital is adequate for her needs? I don't want to install an acoustic in my house that I will be stuck with till I die and have to pay for numerous tunings as I live in FL with no central air. I'm really at a loss here guys.....females......geez.
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1986 Kawai UST-7

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#687201 - 12/19/08 10:23 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9414
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Bear,

If she is indeed a prodigy, then she understands that there is a difference in performance, expression, and durability between digitals and acoustic pianos.

Now, a digital can be cheaper, for sure, but I have owned several digital pianos over the past twenty years. It is rare for them to perform for more than 10 years or so, parts become difficult to get, etc.

I understand your thinking though. It is just that there IS a difference. Maybe if you ask her to go to the store and explain the differences to you there, she may play the digital and think it is possible.

Just don't get your hopes up brother! \:\)
_________________________
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Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
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#687202 - 12/19/08 11:00 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
terminaldegree Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2824
Loc: western Wisconsin
If she is college-bound, owning a digital piano would probably be the only way she could take her own piano to school. (it will fit more easily in a dorm or small apartment situation without annoying roomates)

If she wants to speed up note-entry into music notation software, having a midi-capable keyboard is the only way to do this. (Most composers I know under the age of 40 do it this way instead of clicking in notes with a mouse-- very inefficient!)

It appears that you've already purchased multiple instruments for her already as well as lessons, and you indicated piano is not the primary instrument.

Ultimately, she will want to have a decent acoustic piano of her own to keep for decades (who wouldn't?). Maybe she can get a job to pay for the maintenance of an acoustic instrument if you purchased it.

From your description, she is being totally unreasonable for not even trying one. I would also hope (if you were to purchase an acoustic piano) you would consider giving the instrument to her when she is an adult-- then the care and maintenance is her responsibility for decades to come, not yours.
_________________________
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Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
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#687203 - 12/20/08 12:47 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
mallard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 78
if shes a prodigy i'd love to see what she can do with a moog synth

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#687204 - 12/20/08 05:15 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Discotheque Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 81
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
She's completely right I'm afraid. They're not even close in quality. A digital will sound good in the store and when you play it for a little bit, but the more you live with it the more you discover its shortcomings. Acoustic is the opposite, the more you live with it the more you discover all the nuances and quirks and work with them. Hard to explain, but she's right.

If she's 15 and doesn't have an acoustic, is she taking the piano with her to university? If she is I'd get the acoustic. Also you can get decent acoustics fairly cheaply used, and theoretically could sell it for close the same price if it comes to selling it.

Also if you get an acoustic get a humidifier/dehumidifier, that will help keep it in tune.

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#687205 - 12/20/08 05:38 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
BazC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 711
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
Question: What sources or persons quoted online, etc., are there that I can use to convince her that a digital is adequate for her needs?[/b]
Hugh Sung is a notable concert pianist who has chosen to champion a software piano called Pianoteq he obviously gets to play on all kinds of high end grand pianos but he also chooses to play digital.

He plays a high end Roland mostly but he has been known to tour with a cheap Casio (on a tour of Africa - small enough to carry as hand luggage)

Biography

Hugh Sung\'s webpage

Hugh Sung\'s YouTube page
_________________________

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#687206 - 12/20/08 07:11 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
PhysicsTeacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 99
Loc: Texas
As a teacher I have a bit of a different view on this. Your child may be a prodigy, but she has a lot to learn about being a person. I don't intend this to be mean, but she sounds a bit arrogant and unappreciative. Yes I know that this is a trait of gifted and talented kids but a little bit of humility and appreciation for others are not bad qualities to have either. Is it perhaps possible that you have placed her on a pedestal all of her young life and she is a bit spoiled? Have you catered to her gift to the point she has become a bit of an elitist at age 15? Again, I am not trying to be mean. I work with very talented kids with IQ's much higher than mine, and I know that teaching them basic human kindness and appreciation of others is quite a chore.

My approach to this would be to not push the issue. I can understand her desire to have the very best grand you can't afford, but at the same time, who wouldn't jump at the opportunity to go to the store and try out everything? I suspect refusing to do so is her way of manipulating the situation and metaphorically stomping her foot and holding her breath. I mean, come on, a musically gifted 15 year old refusing to even go to a store full of toys! It sounds to me as if you have a very high maintenance teen who could easily develop into a very high maintenance adult. By all means encourage her talent, but try to keep her feet on the ground at the same time.

I would simply accept her decision and drop the subject. I suspect she will bring it up again in the future after thinking about it. If she is headed to music school, there will be pianos there she can play. I assume she already has access to one now. If not, just let the seed germinate a little bit. She will eventually come around and at least consider your offer. If not, you have saved a bundle.

Again, I sincerely apologize if this comes across as condescending or mean spirited. This is not my intent at all. I may be completely misjudging your daughter and if I am, please accept my apologies. I sense an opportunity for some character development here and wouldn't want to miss that opportunity.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
_________________________
Casio PX-320, Fabers' Adult Piano Adventures 1
"If you drive faster than I do, you are a maniac. If you drive slower than I do, you are are an idiot."

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#687207 - 12/20/08 08:17 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11880
Loc: Canada
changed my mind

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#687208 - 12/20/08 09:20 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
mallard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 78
 Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsTeacher:
As a teacher I have a bit of a different view on this. Your child may be a prodigy, but she has a lot to learn about being a person. I don't intend this to be mean, but she sounds a bit arrogant and unappreciative. Yes I know that this is a trait of gifted and talented kids but a little bit of humility and appreciation for others are not bad qualities to have either.[/b]
Have you ever read a biography of William James Sidis?

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#687209 - 12/20/08 09:46 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17815
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Bear, who is the person responsible for making the decisions in your family? Usually it's better all around if it's the parent, not the child. ;\)

I would tell your daughter that you are willing to spend up to $xxxx on a digital piano. Quite honestly, if composing is her main interest, MIDI capability and an ability to work with different instrument sounds and accompaniments would seem to me to be much more useful than the touch and tone of an acoustic.

Another alternative would be to inform your daughter that you can spend the budgeted amount on an acoustic, but SHE will be responsible for earning money (through babysitting, yard work, whatever) to pay for the maintenance of the piano, and then hold her to it. Have her do some research and find out the typical tuning fees in your region, plus voicing/regulation work every couple of years. If her desire for an acoustic is so strong, she presumably should be willing to invest some of her own time, effort, and savings to maintain it. If she is not, that is informative, too.

You asked for piano advice, not parenting advice, so I'll stop there. ;\)
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#687210 - 12/20/08 09:56 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsTeacher:
I suspect refusing to do so is her way of manipulating the situation and metaphorically stomping her foot and holding her breath.[/b]
She protested because he told her to check out a digital that he picked out and got a good deal on, which does seem presumptive. While he then told her that the store has other pianos she could check out, he already set the stage for selling her on the digital that he wants to get. So, I do agree he should let it go for a little while, and when it comes up again, just take her to any number of stores, without expectations.

Anyhow, I personally believe it's best to learn on an acoustic. I guarantee you Hugh Sung, as someone else mentioned, did not learn on a digital.

When you go checking out colleges, make it one of your criteria whether they have practice rooms with acoustic pianos.

The only hope I think you have of selling her on a digital would be making the notation software that much easier to use. But frankly, you could get her an inexpensive MIDI controller for that. (BTW, why do you think getting her Sibelius was a mistake? Don't you want her to compose?)
_________________________
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#687211 - 12/20/08 10:11 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11880
Loc: Canada
It might be good to hear from people who are actually involved or have been involved in preparing for a professional career in music, and know what that entails. I have deleted my post because although as parent I fit that category (past tense) I am not convinced that I know enough to advise.

Bear: Piano is a secondary instrument but one she will need to have in formal studies at a postsecondary level. Could your approach be one of prioritizing? If something needs to be sacrified, it should not be the main instrument, so something may have to give. Setting priorities was probably a constant, if I remember. You cannot do it all, or give everything equal weight because you will burn out or drain your resources.

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#687212 - 12/20/08 11:08 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
PhysicsTeacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 99
Loc: Texas
Have you ever read a biography of William James Sidis?

No I have not read a biography of him, but I know of him. We used him as a case study in our GT training. A genius by all definitions and a tragedy as well. Causes of problems, not really agreed upon. Perhaps another thread to enlighten me. I am always interested.
_________________________
Casio PX-320, Fabers' Adult Piano Adventures 1
"If you drive faster than I do, you are a maniac. If you drive slower than I do, you are are an idiot."

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#687213 - 12/20/08 11:38 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11880
Loc: Canada
For now I found this: W Sidis - wikki article

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#687214 - 12/20/08 12:06 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3491
Loc: US
He looks a little bit like Glenn Gould!!

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#687215 - 12/20/08 01:06 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bhav Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/08
Posts: 275
At that age, the only thing my parents had bought me was a £400 PSR Keyboard, and no Piano lessons at all. I was always the top music student in all of my school classes, with great support from my teachers, but I ended up completely unprepared for performance at university and failed my audition due to never having had proper guidance or a Piano to practice on.

So humilty, and the 'you cant have a Piano because I say so' technique can backfire for a promising music student, although I really would have never complained over a digital Piano, I got the cheapest one I could find and it is perfect for practice. My musically clueless parents however wouldnt go over £400 and were even trying to talk me into getting a cheaper model!

If studying Music at university, they should definately have private practice rooms with acoustic Pianos available on campus, plus Grand Pianos in lecture rooms, so a digital can fully suffice for home use while using the pianos on campus as well.

I now place full blame on my parents as the reason for why I havnt succeeded in music yet, then again they literally forced me out of studying a Music Technology Diploma after my GCSE's because they wouldnt have me studying anything other then A - levels. But you are already doing enough for your kid, to have him/her complain over a digital piano when lots of musicians never even had one at home just has a 'spoilt' tag attached to it.
_________________________
Currently working on:

Joplin -

Maple Leaf Rag (finished)
Magnetic Rag (finished :))
The Entertainer
Stoptime Rag
Pineapple Rag
The Chrysanthemum
Reflection Rag

- Lots of rags to learn frown.

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#687216 - 12/20/08 01:25 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
PhysicsTeacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 99
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bhav:
... So humilty, and the 'you cant have a Piano because I say so' technique can backfire for a promising music student,... [/b]
I apologize if I came across as suggesting such an approach. My only suggestion is to take the opportunity to teach a life lesson. Heaven knows our children and many adults could use a few of these.

I wouldn't tell my child "You can't have a piano, because I said so." But in the end the answer could very well be, a digital is more appropriate at this time for these reasons ... so we may have to wait on the acoustic if your heart is set on it. I would talk about the family finances, practicality at this time, and try to get her to see the bigger picture of the entire family and their needs. Perhaps a piano is not in the budget at this time, I didn't necessarily get that from the original post. But it may not be practical nor the proper time to invest in a fine instrument either.

I will say this. Unless there was not doubt in my mind that my child was a true prodigy and destined to be the next great concert pianist, my teaching salary would have a hard time justifying a nice grand for my 15 year old. Perhaps in the final year of college if she demonstrated significant potential and desire, then we might have to find a way to sacrifice for one. Now if money is no object, then, heck, why not?

I am in no way suggesting the poster make one choice over the other. I am only offering some food for thought.

Have a great holiday.
_________________________
Casio PX-320, Fabers' Adult Piano Adventures 1
"If you drive faster than I do, you are a maniac. If you drive slower than I do, you are are an idiot."

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#687217 - 12/20/08 01:43 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
I would tell her its a digital piano or nothing. Take it or leave it...
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Les C Deal





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#687218 - 12/20/08 01:58 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11880
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
justifying a nice grand for my 15 year old
I didn't see the word "grand" anywhere. Preparing for a career in music is also not about feelings and having one's "heart" set on things. You need proper tools. The purpose of practicing is not self gratification by playing things that make you happy to hear, though that part is nice. It is to develop skills. You cannot do that fully if you do not have the instrument to go with it. Personally I am not knowledeable enough about the piano to know whether digitals would meet those needs. This is her secondary instrument.

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#687219 - 12/20/08 02:05 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 477
Loc: Twin Cities
I guess different families have VERY different "rules" and expectations. There is absolutely no way that I would have ever expected my parents to buy anything for me aside from clothes and room and board. They rented a violin from the school when I was in 4th and 5th grade to play in the orchestra, but I never had any lessons. In high school, they did buy me a trumpet at a pawn shop and I again had no lessons. I figured out both instruments out from old books, at least well enough to participate. I would never think to demand stuff from my parents, nor would I blame them because they didn't buy me decent instruments. I didn't want to play violin, but it was either that or nothing. We weren't poor, but there were other kids in my family too, and one (hopefully) learns soon enough that it isn't all about ME.

I lay no lofty claims on myself about being "gifted", "talented" or any of that kind of stuff (though I seem to learn well and hold my own), so maybe there is some odd sort of sense of entitlement that comes with that kind of territory that I would never be "privy" to. To me, it seems that if we are keenly aware of the fact that other people exist and have needs too (i.e. it isn't all about ME), then it would be damn difficult to adapt the kind of attitude that both the OP described and that I also see in one or two of the replies in this thread.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#687220 - 12/20/08 03:01 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
mallard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 78
The problem with William Sidis is that although he is considered to be the most intelligent person to have ever lived, he completely lacked social grace and never learned the societal skills necessary to interact with people. His parents were both professors and from day one never babied him and rigidly enforced education and learning beyond what would be normal for a child his age. I dont think that alone accounted for his brilliance, surely there were some genetic reasons as well. By the time he was to be enrolled in school he was so precocious he didnt get along with anyone, he looked down on those around him and nothing was good enough for him. After having some really bad experiences because of this his parents sequestered him away and although he never gave details of what they did to him, after a year or so he re-emerged back to society a changed person. No longer arrogant he was sullen and never really enjoyed working to his full potential.

I guess the issue with gifted children is that its hard to teach them humility without them having to learn it the hard way. Being intelligent is one thing, but being kind goes a lot farther in this world and is more of an admirable quality.

Not being a parent myself I can only guess how tough it is dealing with these kind of issues.

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#687221 - 12/20/08 03:05 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I'm all for digital pianos. They've
enabled me to become the pianist I could
never be on an acoustic piano. But
I have below average talent.

For adult beginners/restarters I univerally
recommend a digital over and acoustic.
For children it's not so clear cut. If
the child is one of the millions of
plunkers with average talent, then there's
no problem with a digital. However, with
a genuine prodigy--and this appears
to be the case with your daughter (this
thing about wanting only an acoustic
is a sure sign of it in my view)--I would
say get the acoustic.

You can get good acoustic uprights
for free in many places in the US.
People with little talent give up
on playing and just want the thing out of the
house. All you do is pay for the moving.

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#687222 - 12/20/08 03:05 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
mallard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 78
all this aside, Louis Armstrong didnt start out with the very best coronet he could find....it was a handme down given to him to play as a job selling coal in the streets from a wheelbarrow.

Just as many have told me in my numerous questions about digital pianos "its not just the instrument, but what you do with it".

sit me on the best Steinway and I would suck compared to your daughter on my 99 dollar yamaha synth.

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#687223 - 12/20/08 03:13 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Sheesh, what a mean, not to mention ungrateful, parent!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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#687224 - 12/20/08 03:15 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Paul Kolodner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/05
Posts: 143
Loc: Hoboken, NJ
I have a different perspective to offer. She is only going to be at home for another 2-3 years. Perhaps you can rent an acoustic piano for that time. Or buy one with the intent of selling it once she leaves home. The loss in value when you sell it will be the equivalent of rent.

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#687225 - 12/20/08 03:24 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3191
Renting is a good option.

One thing to consider is that not all digitals, nor are all acoustics, created equal. A great digital is much better than a cheap or worn-out acoustic.

For example, I have a beautiful acoustic at home, and use a Roland Rd700sx for gigging. The Roland is superior to any entry-level new acoustic console, and many used pianos other than top-level grands in good condition.

Put quality head phones on, and the Roland sounds like the top-level zillion-dollar concert grands from which it is sampled, and it has action that is very close to...what? which acoustic? they are all different!

In any case, it plays nicely.

Unfortunately, I have no clue as to what you should buy...that is your family's business.
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#687226 - 12/20/08 07:16 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
Boy! I opened up a can of worms didn't I? Physics Teacher, I think you are a wise one ;\) . But, having said that, other things were pointed out that made me pause and think too.I'm going to read this post again after the kids are gone and I don't have so many prying eyes (I have 3 smart alecks all of whom qualify for MENSA! and all girls....who says God doesn't have a sense of humor?)
Thanks for the input and keep it up. Diversity is a good thing. BTW, the original question was never answered. Is there anything online to support digitals vs acoustics or vice versa?
_________________________
Just because you are paranoid does not mean someone is still not out to get you.
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#687227 - 12/20/08 07:54 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3899
One thing that caught my eye is LIVING IN FLORIDA WITHOUT CENTRAL AIR. The resulting humidity may rust a piano, however, there is nothing wrong with getting a good used spinet for $600-$800. A Baldwin Acrosonic or 1970's wurlitzer spinet would work.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#687228 - 12/21/08 03:33 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bhav Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/08
Posts: 275
 Quote:
Originally posted by TonyB:


I lay no lofty claims on myself about being "gifted", "talented" or any of that kind of stuff [/b]
I also make no claims about myself personally, and I am still far from being able to play well enough to make a career in music, however I was always far beyond other children at school, and up untill the age of 16 had recieved two reports from my middle and upper schools saying that I was the 'star pupil' in music, along with a school prize at 15 for my talent, and my teachers were the ones to ask me why I wasnt getting piano lessons and giving me as much support as they could. My parents on the other hand viewed the keyboard as nothing more then a toy and didnt support my decision to want to go into music as they thought I would never have a career in it. The only thing that has held me back in music has been a complete lack of parental support for my interests. I feel greatly undeveloped, and I definately have always had musical ability, but never the proper training to develop my skills, at least I am having to do that now instead of having had the chance at an earlier age.

I believe that any child that shows an interest in music should be encouraged to play an instrument from the age of 5, along with being provided with classical music to listen to, and be taken to watch a few music concerts. I also dislike how classical music is no longer a part of modern lifestyle and how few children actually get introduced to it because everyone would rather be drinking in a pub instead.
_________________________
Currently working on:

Joplin -

Maple Leaf Rag (finished)
Magnetic Rag (finished :))
The Entertainer
Stoptime Rag
Pineapple Rag
The Chrysanthemum
Reflection Rag

- Lots of rags to learn frown.

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#687229 - 12/21/08 04:19 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
BazC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 711
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
BTW, the original question was never answered. Is there anything online to support digitals vs acoustics or vice versa? [/b]
I thought my earlier reply answered your question?

Perhaps you missed it?

 Quote:
Originally posted by BazC:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
Question: What sources or persons quoted online, etc., are there that I can use to convince her that a digital is adequate for her needs?[/b]
Hugh Sung is a notable concert pianist who has chosen to champion a software piano called Pianoteq he obviously gets to play on all kinds of high end grand pianos but he also chooses to play digital.

He plays a high end Roland mostly but he has been known to tour with a cheap Casio (on a tour of Africa - small enough to carry as hand luggage)

Biography

Hugh Sung\'s webpage

Hugh Sung\'s YouTube page [/b]
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#687230 - 12/21/08 04:23 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
I have 3 smart alecks all of whom qualify for MENSA! and all girls....who says God doesn't have a sense of humor?[/b]
Triple mean!
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#687231 - 12/21/08 04:28 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
jscomposer Offline
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Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
BTW, the original question was never answered. Is there anything online to support digitals vs acoustics or vice versa? [/b]
That wasn't your initial question. Your initial question was: "What sources or persons quoted online, etc., are there that I can use to convince her that a digital is adequate for her needs? I don't want to install an acoustic in my house that I will be stuck with till I die and have to pay for numerous tunings as I live in FL with no central air."

In other words, you're trying to find some "authoritative source" that says she doesn't need an acoustic in the hopes of swaying her to a decision that you've already made for her. And you're wondering why she's protesting?

EDIT: I see Hugh Sung has come up again. To spin his endorsement of Pianoteq into an endorsement of your decision to get your daughter a digital piano would be disingenuous. Hugh Sung is actually a member on this forum, and you can contact him via his website. I'd be interesting to hear what he has to say.
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#687232 - 12/21/08 09:41 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Rented Offline
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Here's one. How authoritative he is I will leave up to you.

Follow Your Bliss: Learn to Play Piano in 2009: What Instrument Should I Choose?

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#687233 - 12/21/08 08:12 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Hugh Sung Offline
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Posts: 440
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Hi Bear - someone alerted me to this topic, and i'm flattered to have been quoted by BazC (although i will need to clarify that a bit). First, a couple of observations, then if you'll allow a few recommendations:

1. It sounds like your daughter is sensitive enough to recognize that most digital pianos are vastly inferior to acoustic pianos - most people believe it or not don't realize what the differences are, which can be as follows:

2. She may not be able to articulate why, but she's recognizing that most digital pianos only have about 3 or 4 different digital sound levels per note. That's like trying to paint a masterpiece with 3 or 4 crayons!! You're missing all the acoustic/analog equivalents of infinite ranges of touch, coloring, attack, post-attack shading, damper pedal effects, una corda effects, cross string harmonic effects, and several other factors that can affect how an acoustic piano produces sound. For several years, i also hated digital pianos, but i just never understood exactly why - on the surface they sounded "ok", but they felt too "artificial" and "limited". It wasn't until i did some serious research did i start to understand some of those limiting factors that i just outlined above.

My recommendations:

1. Talent needs encouragement and support. Your daughter sounds remarkably talented, given her amazing range of instrumental abilities! (I really envy those that can play more than one instrument!!) I might start by recognizing her talents and telling her directly ("Honey, that's amazing that you're able to tell the difference between digital and acoustic pianos!" or, "I've heard that Sibelius is a great program for professional composers - that's terrific that you've taken to it so well!") If she continues, she has the potential to become a great conductor, composer, artistic director, music festival/conservatory/production administrator, instrumental retailer/consultant, the list really goes on and on, given her wide range of musical interests and capabilities!

2. I would openly discuss your concerns about an acoustic instrument with her - you had mentioned the "hassles" of tuning and the thought of being "stuck" with an instrument. Have you considered that tuning sessions could potentially introduce your daughter to the inner workings of pianos and a deeper understanding of the components that make them work? If tuning costs are an issue, perhaps she could pay for them herself by taking on a part-time job, giving her some terrific lessons on responsibility and budgeting? And if the cost of the piano itself is an issue, you might want to consider a new crop of affordable, high quality instruments like the Cunningham Piano (not sure if they deliver to Central Florida, but it would be well worth asking!!)

3. On the digital piano front, i need to clarify that i only use my Roland RD-700SX and Casio Privia 110 as keyboard controllers - their built-in sounds suffer from the same limitations that i outlined above. To fully complement any digital keyboard, you really need to get an amazing virtual piano program called Pianoteq - unlike digital pianos which play back 3 or 4 pre-recorded sound samples per key, Pianoteq actually creates the sound in realtime, factoring in the full MIDI velocity scale (0-127) and applying string/hammer physics, allowing for a much fuller range of expressive touch and damper pedal control than i've ever seen in any other synthesized piano. Pianoteq runs on a computer, connected to a digital piano via MIDI, and its polyphony will be limited by your computer's processor speed. I'd be really curious to hear about your daughter's reaction to the Pianoteq program.

If at all possible, i would actually recommend you reconsider getting your daughter an acoustic piano if you're serious about supporting her musical development. I'd ALSO recommend getting her a digital keyboard together with Pianoteq. The acoustic piano will give your daughter the aural and technical training that is simply unparalleled on the highest level. The digital piano setup, on the other hand, would give your daughter valuable insights into digital technologies that are critical in today's music markets, as well as the flexibility to perform in spaces that might not have a readily available acoustic piano. The best of both worlds, i suppose ;\)

I do hope this long-winded post helps to show that there are more options than simply getting or not getting a digital piano. Most of all, i hope your daughter gets the encouragement she needs to realize her full potential and imagination to think outside of the box and see all the amazing possibilities around her!
_________________________
Hugh Sung
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www.HughSung.com

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#687234 - 12/22/08 03:23 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
BazC Offline
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Very good of you to take the time to offer your advice Hugh!
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#687235 - 12/22/08 02:00 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
mallard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 78
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Sung:
Hi Bear - someone alerted me to this topic, and i'm flattered to have been quoted by BazC (although i will need to clarify that a bit). First, a couple of observations, then if you'll allow a few recommendations:

1. It sounds like your daughter is sensitive enough to recognize that most digital pianos are vastly inferior to acoustic pianos - most people believe it or not don't realize what the differences are, which can be as follows:

2. She may not be able to articulate why, but she's recognizing that most digital pianos only have about 3 or 4 different digital sound levels per note. That's like trying to paint a masterpiece with 3 or 4 crayons!! You're missing all the acoustic/analog equivalents of infinite ranges of touch, coloring, attack, post-attack shading, damper pedal effects, una corda effects, cross string harmonic effects, and several other factors that can affect how an acoustic piano produces sound. For several years, i also hated digital pianos, but i just never understood exactly why - on the surface they sounded "ok", but they felt too "artificial" and "limited". It wasn't until i did some serious research did i start to understand some of those limiting factors that i just outlined above.

My recommendations:

1. Talent needs encouragement and support. Your daughter sounds remarkably talented, given her amazing range of instrumental abilities! (I really envy those that can play more than one instrument!!) I might start by recognizing her talents and telling her directly ("Honey, that's amazing that you're able to tell the difference between digital and acoustic pianos!" or, "I've heard that Sibelius is a great program for professional composers - that's terrific that you've taken to it so well!") If she continues, she has the potential to become a great conductor, composer, artistic director, music festival/conservatory/production administrator, instrumental retailer/consultant, the list really goes on and on, given her wide range of musical interests and capabilities!

2. I would openly discuss your concerns about an acoustic instrument with her - you had mentioned the "hassles" of tuning and the thought of being "stuck" with an instrument. Have you considered that tuning sessions could potentially introduce your daughter to the inner workings of pianos and a deeper understanding of the components that make them work? If tuning costs are an issue, perhaps she could pay for them herself by taking on a part-time job, giving her some terrific lessons on responsibility and budgeting? And if the cost of the piano itself is an issue, you might want to consider a new crop of affordable, high quality instruments like the Cunningham Piano (not sure if they deliver to Central Florida, but it would be well worth asking!!)

3. On the digital piano front, i need to clarify that i only use my Roland RD-700SX and Casio Privia 110 as keyboard controllers - their built-in sounds suffer from the same limitations that i outlined above. To fully complement any digital keyboard, you really need to get an amazing virtual piano program called Pianoteq - unlike digital pianos which play back 3 or 4 pre-recorded sound samples per key, Pianoteq actually creates the sound in realtime, factoring in the full MIDI velocity scale (0-127) and applying string/hammer physics, allowing for a much fuller range of expressive touch and damper pedal control than i've ever seen in any other synthesized piano. Pianoteq runs on a computer, connected to a digital piano via MIDI, and its polyphony will be limited by your computer's processor speed. I'd be really curious to hear about your daughter's reaction to the Pianoteq program.

If at all possible, i would actually recommend you reconsider getting your daughter an acoustic piano if you're serious about supporting her musical development. I'd ALSO recommend getting her a digital keyboard together with Pianoteq. The acoustic piano will give your daughter the aural and technical training that is simply unparalleled on the highest level. The digital piano setup, on the other hand, would give your daughter valuable insights into digital technologies that are critical in today's music markets, as well as the flexibility to perform in spaces that might not have a readily available acoustic piano. The best of both worlds, i suppose ;\)

I do hope this long-winded post helps to show that there are more options than simply getting or not getting a digital piano. Most of all, i hope your daughter gets the encouragement she needs to realize her full potential and imagination to think outside of the box and see all the amazing possibilities around her! [/b]
great post!....which begs the next logical extension:

How soon before we can see a digital stage piano with graded keys with pianoteq as the core sound producer?

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#687236 - 12/23/08 07:42 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by rocket88:

For example, I have a beautiful acoustic at home, and use a Roland Rd700sx for gigging. [/b]
Don't neglect this small but not minor point. While some forum members will play most of their lives in the comfort of their practice room, we're talking about a potential career.

This student needs to be gigging now not later. Sooner or later she will need a stage piano and it might as well be the first step. She can easily make enough money to buy an acoustic later.

I suggest something like the Yamaha P-60, P-120 series or rocket's Roland.
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#687237 - 12/23/08 09:49 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
doremi Offline
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#687238 - 12/23/08 10:46 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
bitWrangler Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by doremi:
A vote for the acoustic piano.

The 'good digital is better than bad acoustic' opinion has been tossed up innumerous times from a performer point of view. IMHO, things look different from a developing skills point of view.

Even a bad acoustic is a life instrument, whereas even a good digital is still a pretty dead instrument in the sense that you can't play with it (play in the sense of a child playing) the way you can with an acoustic to develop inital piano playing skills (just as a child plays to develop useful life skills).

Obviously, I am not saying to get a bad acoustic. But I do say to get an acoustic first (to learn on the real thing), and a digital later (for gigging and composing). She could buy a Steinway concert grand for herself later on.
[/b]
I completely disagree. This may be an issue of degrees here, but we have run across plenty of bad acoustics that the kids were completely turned off by. Perhaps if the kids are very young and know nothing better, but from any other perspective, other than mechanical, a bad acoustic I think can actually be entirely negative. It doesn't take very long for kids to start getting very frustrated with a perpetually out of tune piano with a lousy action where keys stick and some don't work.

OOC, where do you base your statement about digitals being "dead" and kids preferring an acoustic in terrible shape to a decent digital? Is it personal experience? Was there some study done?

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#687239 - 12/23/08 11:51 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
doremi Offline
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#687240 - 12/23/08 02:10 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
natedaddy Offline
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Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Austin, TX
To answer your question about pro-Digital resources, you can look at this page (at a piano dealership that sells digitals and acoustics) or you can talk to Scott the Piano Guy Houston (he has a PBS show and a ton of YouTube videos -- he's sponsored by Roland, so of course he's biased, but he has lots of good things to say about it. Some on these boards, even.) Unfortunately, his website is more e-commerce than information. He does have some video testimonials on Roland's website, though, and probably some good stuff on YouTube. (And he doesn't post much, but he's a member on these boards, too.)

The big advantage of acoustics is: they have "infinte resolution," both in feel, feedback, and sound. DP's have at most 9 or 10 samples for each key, and they digitally adapt those to mimic the sound and feel you get from a piano. High-end models are very good at mimicing the sound and feel, but at best it's going to sound like a high-quality stereo playing a high-quality stereo recording of a great piano in response to your finger touches.

Digitals, on the other hand, have a lot of advantages: They..
  • Never need tuning
  • Are much lighter, and take up less space
  • Can record and playback
  • Can connect to a computer for input or output
  • Can be practiced silently, with headphones
  • Are modeled after super-high-end Grands -- $50k type instruments, and they can surpass low-end acoustics (spinets and ancient honky-tonk uprights at least) in feel and sound
  • Typically cost less than acoustics (for whatever that is worth -- even without the price component, there are plenty of good reasons for Digital)


Your daughter may have a bad impression of digitals because she's only familiar with lowest-end ones. They suck it up pretty bad compared to good ones -- when I was in college our practice rooms had these 1980's-era digital pianos that made this vacuum-tube background hum, spring-loaded keys, and produced a sound that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a piano. But technology marches on, and high-end DP's now are much better than that.

And ... if all 3 are going to play it, and you have room for it and aren't planning to move around much in the future and don't require "quiet" practice, non-piano sounds, or computer hookups, and you can afford regular (2x/year) tunings AND -- this is important -- you can make it clear that this is an informed, strategic move on your part and not a giving in -- then an acoustic might be the right move for you.

Hm, it's a frustrating thing -- your daughter is right about acoustics making a better sound and being best for advanced play, but her attitude is deeply spoiled. If you have kids that smart, you are probably not a dummy yourself -- surely you understand that this isn't about the instrument she wants to play, it's about her being a little prima donna who wants to get her way.

You have a bigger issue, though, and that is your precocious prodigy of a snowflake is acting like a bratty little toddler. You may have to ask yourself, do you want your progeny to grow up to be "Britney Spears" type train-wrecks, or do you want them to be good people, even if it means maybe not being a super-success in the musical world? My advice is to tell your daughter "forget it, I'm not getting you a piano at all." Wait until she gets a job and buys her own -- a summer at Kroger or Wendy's, and she can buy whatever she can afford with the money she makes. Or (failing that,) at least wait until she asks nicely, and shows real gratefulness for whatever her parents decide to bless her with. Even if you decide to get an acoustic, it should be on your terms, not hers, and if it were me, I wouldn't do it unless the kid is already resolved to be happy with a Digital or whatever else they may or may not get.

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#687241 - 12/24/08 03:04 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
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Registered: 02/02/02
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Loc: El Cajon, CA
I remember about 11 years ago being at a friends house in Virginia. They had this 76-key Roland digital piano that I'd guess was no newer than the 1980s - probably more like 70s or so. The action was quite poor (by even the standards then), and it sounded absolutely NOTHING like a piano!
Based on that (and probably having played a couple other Rolands back then), I was thinking I absolutely HATED Roland digital pianos.

But... fast forward to a couple years ago... and yeowzers did I get a shocking slap in the face, to put it figuratively! I played a Roland RD-700sx at Guitar Center.... and... WOW! Roland has come a LONG way since I last played one.
They basically went from, in my opinion, worst digital piano.... to pretty much best digital piano.
Also, I have liked the RD-700GX, the RD-300GX, and the Fantom-X and G series pianos from them as well.
I'm not much of a fan of Yamaha digitals, though, but I do play them occasionally as the opportunity arises. The Casio Privia line (especially the newest ones) are ones that I like, as well. (I had actually bought a PX-575 a year or so ago, but returned it because I found I couldn't live with the 32-note polyphony limitation on that model.)
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#687242 - 12/24/08 04:47 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Discotheque Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 81
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Alright for God's sake people stop comparing very good digitals to acoustic pianos that only qualify for firewood. They are NOT in the same category, and they are NOT gonna cost the same. If you're going to compare a GOOD digital, that will cost around $1500-$2000 then compare it to an ACOUSTIC that will cost that much either new or used. You can get a pretty good acoustic for that price that will compare and be (IMO) superior to digitals. I mean comparing a $2000 digital to an acoustic that has to be given away? What the hell is the point? Digital wins, big deal. Compare it to something that costs the same.

Also can we stop making statements like "your daughter is a brat" and crap like that? ANY conclusion anyone here is making on the OP's daughter is based SOLELY on the OP's first post. Nobody has met his daughter, nobody has met the OP. For all we know he was frustrated when he posted that and she's actually a sweet girl. Cut the crap, stop giving some random guy who you don't know random advice on how to parent a child you've never met. Best case scenario: he ignores it. Worst case scenario: he takes the SUPREMELY UNINFORMED advice given to him and screws up his family. Seriously, who the hell do you people think you are? You don't know his daughter his spoiled, you've never met her or the OP so why not think about what you're writing?

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#687243 - 12/24/08 05:36 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
YabbaDabba Offline
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Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 14
Loc: California
Wait till she is old enough to get a job and let her get her own piano. Problem solved!
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#687244 - 12/25/08 02:29 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Jazz+ Offline
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Loc: Banned
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
Her primary instrument is the french horn. She also plays clarinet, sax, that marching horn thing, piano and is now taking violin lessons so that she can better write music for her compositions. I made the mistake of buying her Sibelius software to write music and she took off with it.
[/b]
Piano is not even the girls primary or secondary instrument - therefore, a digital piano is fine especialy for composing. I say this as a professional pianist and a piano teacher.
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#687245 - 12/25/08 03:05 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Larisa Offline
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Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
Still, if she learns to play piano on a digital, she'll be handicapped when she gets to play on an acoustic. A digital is simply not as sensitive as an acoustic - it doesn't respond the same way an acoustic does. It's a different instrument.

I'd say just rent an acoustic piano until she goes to college. It's really cheap. I rented one for a while; it was a very nice instrument, and the cost was something like $25/month.

Also, as a parenting tip: ask her why she's so against getting a digital. It's always good to ask, and to listen to the answer with an open mind.

When I was 13 years old, we were very poor and could not afford any kind of piano. A very kind and wonderful person donated us a piano. It was a decent enough instrument, and my parents were very happy with it. I could not force myself to play it. Had they not asked me why, we would have had raging battles around that piano; there would have been all sorts of ugly words thrown around ("entitlement", "me me me", "egoism", etc.) Instead (because I have good parents), they asked me what was wrong. I told them - I have perfect pitch, and the piano in question was consistently 1/2 tone flat. They could not hear anything wrong, but I could, and it drove me nuts.

No, I did not force my parents to buy me a piano; I knew we couldn't afford one. I practiced at school, or at a kind relative's house. Nor do I have an entitlement attitude. But playing that instrument caused me physical distress. Is it egoistic to want to avoid physical distress?

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#687246 - 12/25/08 11:30 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
kiedysktos. Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larisa:
Still, if she learns to play piano on a digital, she'll be handicapped when she gets to play on an acoustic. A digital is simply not as sensitive as an acoustic - it doesn't respond the same way an acoustic does. It's a different instrument.[/b]
Honestly, I don't agree. Of course digital will never be as expressive as a acoustic, but you can do a lot of practicing and composing work on a digital. Specially, if she has acoustic in the school and she can practice on this instrument from time to time, buying digital is not ideal, but it's still great option.
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#687247 - 12/26/08 10:11 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Jazz+ Offline
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Loc: Banned
It takes me about ten minutes to adjust back to an acoustic piano after playing a digital for a month. Training on a digital is not that big of a handicap, especially when her primary instrument is violin and not even the piano.
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#687248 - 12/28/08 12:44 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
Some clarification. Yes, I'm poor. I'm just a convict guard at a state prison. Her primary instrument is the "french" horn. "Horn" for those technically correct. I was in fact, looking at the $2000 range. $3000 tops. CLP-280/380 being my digital choice. Used Yamaha my acoustic choice. Prodigy was too strong a word but, she's damn close in my opinion. She just made all-state orchestra. They only pick 4 horns. That makes her one of the top 4 in the state amongst ALL high school students. She's only in the 10th grade... She plays several instruments, composes and conducts. The piano is REQUIRED for her college degree as part and parcel of the degree. She's also dual enrolled in the local Community College and will be going on from there. I expect she will have her HS Diploma and Associates by the time she graduates from HS. This after we bumped her up a grade in Elementary School.

Having said all that, and I'm damned proud of her, I still think she's a spoiled rotten brat. I mainly have taken the advice of the above and put everything on hold at the moment to see what her reaction will be. She has access to a couple of upright acoustics (granted, they are of poor quality) so she's not being abused ;\)

Every new post seems to shed a different angle on things tho. This thread has really made me sit back and THINK! Thanks for the replies everybody! Like I said, diversity is a good thing.
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#687249 - 12/28/08 01:16 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
doremi Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1758
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Had I progressed to playing chords,
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#687250 - 12/28/08 06:48 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
Doremi,
She behaves beautifully in public. I have never had any problems with her behavior other than her tendency to correct her elders (not always a good thing to do - correcting the boss can be hazardous to your job). Her manners are correct and proper. She knows her mother and I would kill her otherwise. When I say a spoiled rotten brat, I am referring to her expectations as to what she thinks she is entitled to and what she will "settle" for.
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#687251 - 12/28/08 10:48 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
piqué Offline
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Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
I was in fact, looking at the $2000 range. $3000 tops.
you can get a very good used acoustic upright for that kind of money. look for a charles walter, or a baldwin.

do you have a room in your house you can close up with a dehumidifier running? if you do, and you install a damppchaser in the upright, your climate won't destroy the piano. the piano's dealer can advise you.

your daughter is right about the acoustic being superior, and the fact that she has refined tastes does not make her a "spoiled rotten brat." it makes her someone with refined sensibilities that could bring creative gifts to the world.

she should have the right tool, since you can afford it.

now, correcting her elders is something else again! ;\)
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#687252 - 12/28/08 12:56 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
MichaelR Offline
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Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Little Rock, AR
Music is primarily about soul, not how expensive your instrument is.

You should consider your budget. Sure you can buy a used acoustic for relatively little. My Roland sounds better than a lot of cheap used acoustics. If you're looking at less than $2000, I think finding an acoustic with better tone than a digi is going to be really tough, maybe impossible.

If she will be going to college out of town and will need the piano with her, the decision is really a no-brainer. She will want the piano in her room, and the department will have acoustics.

If you're set, just buy the digital and put it in the house. She'll play it. So she might be mad at first, but it'll pass once she starts playing it.

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#687253 - 12/28/08 01:41 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
doremi Offline
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Had I progressed to playing chords,
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#687254 - 12/28/08 01:43 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
MichaelR Offline
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Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Little Rock, AR
a little more nuance (after discovering the rest of the posts on this thread)-

I guess opinions differ over the quality issue, and I suppose we won't resolve that. I love my digital, the tone is so so so much better than the two similarly priced acoustics I had growing up. And, since my tastes aren't limited to strictly classical, I love the versatility it offers. I have a fairly bottom-of-the-line Roland player piano. It doesn't have the depth of even a $4k upright, but it can still make wonderful music. And I honestly find the "thin" sound of the $2k range uprights I've played to be...well, I don't like it (though the talented can make great music on those, too).

And as the piano is a tertiary instrument, I. personally, don't see a reason to spend more than you can afford. Still, there's a big difference in tone b/w the two main digitals, Yamaha and Roland - briefly it's bright vs. mellow. Fender vs. Gibson. Likely your daughter will prefer one over the other.

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#687255 - 12/29/08 02:29 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Discotheque Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 81
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Well if she's got a sense of entitlement, really the issue is that of money isn't it, rather than acoustic vs. digital? $2000 is $2000, whether on an acoustic or digital, then she can decide? Also with an acoustic if upkeep costs are an issue make her pay? Just throwing some suggestions, only you will know, I don't know your daughter.

Personally I think the issue of digital vs. acoustic is not really related to your daughter's supposed sense of entitlement (I don't mean disrespect by saying supposed, it's just I've never met her so I'd rather not prejudge either way). Anyway, if all you have is $2000, if she'd rather spend that on an acoustic (I would...) so be it, no? The acoustic my parents bought for me 15 years ago cost $1500 (would probably cost more now I guess)... and it's quite good, albeit it was quite a deal (woman had to move and just wanted to get rid of it).

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#687256 - 01/04/09 11:02 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
Thank you one and all. I digested all of your advice and bit the bullet. I had to agree that I HAD made the decision for my daughter without involving her in the decision making process which created much discord. I never doubted that a good quality acoustic was better. It's just that, given our situation and budget, a digital was the "logical" choice. Women and musicians do not deal with logic very well especially when it is formulated by someone else....heh heh. I DO however still resent that she would not entertain the idea of a digital even though she had no knowledge on the subject and was unwilling to even try one.

I went back to the drawing board and started researching acoustics again. I ended up deciding that a Kawai or Yamaha was the only safe way to go given my level of piano knowledge. Altho, there are pitfalls amongst the models if you are not carefull. Again, thanks to Piano World and Larry Fine's book, I muddled my way through. I then started hitting Craigs List. TA DA! I am now the proud owner of a used 1986 Kawai UST-7 that I bought in very good condition for $1350.





The tone on the piano is quite nice and much better than most of the uprights I have listened to. They really do have a nice mellow sound to them. They sound much bigger than the 46" that they are.

Needless to say, I am sadly leaving you kind folk and moving over to the Adult Beginner forum. I no longer have an excuse for not taking it up.

Thank you all. Your a great bunch. I don't know what I would have ended up with without you.

Doug
_________________________
Just because you are paranoid does not mean someone is still not out to get you.
1986 Kawai UST-7

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#687257 - 01/04/09 11:10 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17815
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Congratulations, Doug, on your new piano. \:\) Yes, please do come join us on the AB forum. That way your piano won't sit there gathering dust after your daughter leaves for college.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#687258 - 01/04/09 11:26 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
guest1013 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 1239
Wow! Congratulations! What a happy ending to your search. Best wishes on your music making journey!
(How would you compare it to a 1957 spinet?)

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#687259 - 01/04/09 11:28 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
There would be no comparison in my opinion between this piano and a spinet... It really does sound good!
_________________________
Just because you are paranoid does not mean someone is still not out to get you.
1986 Kawai UST-7

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#687260 - 01/05/09 12:28 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
guest1013 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 1239
\:D

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#687261 - 01/05/09 12:55 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
MichaelR Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Little Rock, AR
Congratulations on your new piano! It looks great. I hope it makes you and your daughter happy.

(Also want to take this moment to say that I feel that I was much too aggressive in defending digitals in my above posts - sorry about that.)

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#687262 - 01/06/09 03:34 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bear904:
Needless to say, I am sadly leaving you kind folk and moving over to the Adult Beginner forum. I no longer have an excuse for not taking it up. [/b]
Aha! I knew it all along! PM to follow.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#687263 - 01/06/09 08:42 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
MichaelR....do not berate yourself. It was diverse opinion that I wanted. The back and forth was educational, wonderful and invigorating. I love a good debate if done intelligently. Even if it DOES prove me wrong in the end.
_________________________
Just because you are paranoid does not mean someone is still not out to get you.
1986 Kawai UST-7

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#687264 - 01/06/09 08:57 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
Oh, good! I'm so glad. Have fun learning to play!

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#687265 - 01/08/09 06:38 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Women and musicians do not deal with logic very well especially when it is formulated by someone else...
excuse me?

:rolleyes:
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#687266 - 01/08/09 06:57 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Goofball Jones Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Chicago
You made up your mind and that's fine...but don't let others here tell you that she'd be "handicapped" if she learned on a digital and then moved on to acoustic. We're humans, we adapt, we change. You can't be "ruined" or anything like that.

It's like saying "never let her play a synth because she'll be handicapped then when she goes back to piano and it's weighted keys. Don't play organ because the waterfall keys are different and will ruin her for piano".

Considering that acoustics themselves can all be different from each other, wouldn't learning and practicing on one acoustic handicap you if you go to a different feeling piano? Of course not, that's ludicrous, just like the thought that a digital piano would handicap someone.

Come on...

But doesn't matter, as you got the acoustic.

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#687267 - 01/09/09 01:43 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Goofball Jones:
You made up your mind and that's fine...but don't let others here tell you that she'd be "handicapped" if she learned on a digital and then moved on to acoustic. [/b]
Everyone should be entitled to engage in the real world - not a recording of it. Who is to say what they miss out otherwise?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#687268 - 01/09/09 02:49 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Goofball Jones Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Everyone should be entitled to engage in the real world - not a recording of it. Who is to say what they miss out otherwise? [/QB]
Really? Then I want my full sized grand piano. NOW! I'm entitled!

Forgot we're in the "age of entitlement". I'm special, we're all special. We're all entitled to whatever we want!

\:D

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#687269 - 01/09/09 07:10 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
Goofball's got ya there Klutz..... Perhaps your verbiage needs to be changed.
_________________________
Just because you are paranoid does not mean someone is still not out to get you.
1986 Kawai UST-7

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#687270 - 01/09/09 03:16 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Goofball, it's the real world you're entitled to not its contents.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#687271 - 01/09/09 05:03 PM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
mallard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 78
 Quote:
Originally posted by Goofball Jones:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Everyone should be entitled to engage in the real world - not a recording of it. Who is to say what they miss out otherwise? [/b]
Really? Then I want my full sized grand piano. NOW! I'm entitled!

Forgot we're in the "age of entitlement". I'm special, we're all special. We're all entitled to whatever we want!

\:D [/QB]
Obama's gonna get us all a pony.

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#687272 - 01/10/09 04:14 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Brahms4 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Europe
Hi - my first post here!

I have a digital for practical reasons and hadn't played on an acoustic for over a year. The next time I did, I was shocked at the difference in the playing experience - I had forgotten that you can actually feel the music vibrating through your body - the sensation is 1000% times better on an acoustic in my opinion.

Having said that, it is a more complicated matter in your case since you're paying for the instrument for your daughter. I think she does sound ungrateful, but I also think you sound pretty resentful too (the adjectives you've chosen to use in your post show a lot of underlying bitterness). Kids pick up on stuff like that. I think your daughter is probably feeling some hostility from you and is reacting by acting stubbornly - it's all just part of being a normal teenager (unfortunately).

I would approach the situation by treating her like an adult - it will be the best way to appeal to her because if you treat her like a stubborn child she will act like one. Flatter her that she is growing up now - sit her down and explain to her (calmly!) just how much money you have already spent on instruments for her so far, and what that financial commitment means to you based on the hours you personally have to work in order to pay for her pleasure. Explain to her that when people are considering buying a very large item like a piano, there are other considerations to think about apart from the sound of the instrument. Try and get her to do the thinking - see what she comes up with.

I think if you try and work with her as an ally you will get through to her more easily.
_________________________
My Music Theory
My Blog

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#687273 - 01/10/09 05:01 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Brahms4:
Hi - my first post here!

I have a digital for practical reasons and hadn't played on an acoustic for over a year. The next time I did, I was shocked at the difference in the playing experience - I had forgotten that you can actually feel the music vibrating through your body - the sensation is 1000% times better on an acoustic in my opinion.

Having said that, it is a more complicated matter in your case since you're paying for the instrument for your daughter. I think she does sound ungrateful, but I also think you sound pretty resentful too (the adjectives you've chosen to use in your post show a lot of underlying bitterness). Kids pick up on stuff like that. I think your daughter is probably feeling some hostility from you and is reacting by acting stubbornly - it's all just part of being a normal teenager (unfortunately).

I would approach the situation by treating her like an adult - it will be the best way to appeal to her because if you treat her like a stubborn child she will act like one. Flatter her that she is growing up now - sit her down and explain to her (calmly!) just how much money you have already spent on instruments for her so far, and what that financial commitment means to you based on the hours you personally have to work in order to pay for her pleasure. Explain to her that when people are considering buying a very large item like a piano, there are other considerations to think about apart from the sound of the instrument. Try and get her to do the thinking - see what she comes up with.

I think if you try and work with her as an ally you will get through to her more easily. [/b]
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/6/5716/3.html#000056

Never hurts to read past the first post. ;\)

Anyhow, welcome!
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#687274 - 01/10/09 05:07 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Brahms4:
Try and get her to do the thinking - see what she comes up with.[/b]
I sense an experienced hand. If I could sum up 'How to Teach' in one sentence that would be it! Stick around Brahms4, and welcome to PW!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#687275 - 01/10/09 07:30 AM Re: Help with ungrateful stubborn child
Bear904 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 64
Loc: FL
Concur Klutz. Welcome aboard Brahms4. I'm just a parent spending money like I have it and being constantly confused by a house full of females...
_________________________
Just because you are paranoid does not mean someone is still not out to get you.
1986 Kawai UST-7

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