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#688006 - 11/16/04 07:59 AM Homework done - Need opinions
luv2cmwork Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 11
I've tried to do my homework. I've searched the forums here and elsewhere. I would like to purchase a digital piano for myself (fun mostly) and my two young children who are in their 1st and 3rd years of piano. And I've narrowed my decision to 3 models. I'm now searching for your expert advice. Thanks in advance.

My picks are all Yamaha's. Our budget is limited (no more than $2,100). I have selected the CLP-130, the P120 and the P250.

So far, none of the music stores in my area have the P120. They only sell the Clavinovas. Also, my wife is concerned that the P120 is not a digital piano, but rather a "souped up" keyboard. I've tried to explain that it just doesn't look like a piano, but performs as one in every respect. Is that true?

The salesman pushed me toward the CLP-130 in the Clavinova series. I know why, after doing more research..mostly because of the sampling. He tried to show me the sound difference in the low end (between the CLP120 and the CLP130), which was noticable, but didn't mention the difference in amplifiers, which obviously makes a difference as well. That bothered me.

I want to keep the piano experience "fun" and that's why I've opted to look at the P250. It seems, for the money, it offers the most voices. That, along with the higher wattage amp, is the only reason I'd pick it, over the P120.

So, my question for you, is to give me any ideas about these three models.

Also, I've looked, but what should I expect to pay for these three models?

CLP-130 = $2,000
P250 = $1,700
P120 = $1,200

Are those prices about right?

Oh..and one more thing. In your experience, what is the most reliable and cheapest online place to order a Yamaha?

Thanks again, for any info you can provide.

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#688007 - 11/16/04 08:25 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
JSC0324 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 200
Loc: Grandvaux, VD Switzerland
I recently went through a similar exercise, but I was looking for a portable keyboard to be used as a practice instrument while I am away on business or vacation. So, I did not look at some of the more "formal" options you have mentioned. I looked at the P120 and also the Kawai ES3. I did not look at the P250 primarily because of its increased size and weight. I got the Kawai for the same price as the P120 was offered to me locally. I sent you the best price I got on the P120 privately that was lower than the local prices by more than $100. I think the advice given to me here that these are equivalents is true. The differences between the two keyboards are small, I liked the form factor and the USB connection better on the Kawai. Yamaha sounds are slightly different but not less pleasing.

I have two kids and they love playing with the keyboard and the different sounds. They seem to have a little more fun when working on the seemingly mundane beginner scale lessons. Make no mistake, I have yet to play a digital piano that comes close to the nuances of my acousic in both sound and feel, but it allows me to achieve my practice objectives and at this point I am a long way from exhausting what I can learn by playing the instrument.

I guess if you asked my advice, it would be to save some $ and buy the p120 and invest that cash in computer hardware and software to use additional software sampling, etc. I have not done this yet, but it looks like A LOT of fun. This different from what your wife might be expecting though. If you can get to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash, these are amazing places to explore all these possibilities!

Good Luck,
John

Sorry for the rambling post....

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#688008 - 11/16/04 08:36 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Rodney Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Caledon ON, Canada
Your price on the P250 sure looks VERY attractive as the going rate is typically around $2000.

All of these instruments are very good but I believe that the P250 samples are larger and better than the CLP-130. Another point to remember is that the CLP-130 only has 64 voice of polyphony while the P250 is 128. This isn't important at the beginning but it will be as you and the kids progress and start layering voices.

My vote would definately go to the P250 BUT all are great instruments.

You still have to convince your wife that it doesn't have to look like a piano in order to sound like one. ;-)

Don't forget a VERY good stand, sustain pedal, headphones and adjustable bench.

Rodney

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#688009 - 11/16/04 09:14 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Lightnin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/04
Posts: 210
 Quote:
Originally posted by luv2cmwork:
So far, none of the music stores in my area have the P120. They only sell the Clavinovas. Also, my wife is concerned that the P120 is not a digital piano, but rather a "souped up" keyboard. I've tried to explain that it just doesn't look like a piano, but performs as one in every respect. Is that true?

The salesman pushed me toward the CLP-130 in the Clavinova series. [/b]
The CLP130 *IS* a P120, just with extra wooden cabinet and more sound system (speakers and amp) and more price. These two models have the same specifications otherwise, line for line. You will want larger external amplified speakers for the portable, so the CLP130 may be a good choice for home if price and bulk are not problems. There are several CLP models, but I am speaking specifically of the the CLP130/P120 relationship being the same specifications, for example, the CLP120 is a lesser model, which doesnt have the same three level dynamic sampling.

As to be being keyboards, these models (CLP, P) dont have the accompiment features and voices found in keyboards (PSR and CVP), but are instead optimized to be good digital pianos.

Guitar Center is a large national chain that may be local for you, and will definitely have the P120 and similar models on the floor.

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#688010 - 11/16/04 09:45 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
luv2cmwork Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 11
The CLP-130 *IS* the P120? That's exactly what it seemed like to me. After researching this for days on end, that's about what I came up with. There is quite an increase in price, to get up the CLP-130, for just a bigger amp and more cabinet. And frankly, I think there may be times when I would like the portability (church, for example). I don't really care what the cabinet looks like.

I'm really leaning toward the P120 now.

Can I bug you for two more questions?

1. Would it be smarter to get the P120 and consider adding a tone module in the future to get more voices? Or should we just break down and consider the P250? I just want to keep it fun (for me mostly) I'm a computer geek..sounds like I can make tones on my computer? Is that hard?

2. What kind of external amp and speakers would you recommend with the P120. I realize that may be a bag of worms...maybe just an example or two..not the best. Just in case we want to play on the road? Or kick it up a notch at home, even? I've read something about computer speakers, like Logitechs or Klipshe. Do they work? Or is there something better you'd recommend?

This is a GREAT forum! I apprecaite having access to so many knowledgable folks!

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#688011 - 11/16/04 10:52 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
I bought my P120 last August from a store here in San Francisco called "Guitar World." They specialize in all things rock. They had the complete line of Yamaha keyboards, including clavinovas.

I liked the portability idea of the P120. Plus it had the features I wanted -- realistic piano sound (through headphones), fairly realistic keyboard feel, jacks for 2 pedals (so I could install both a sustaining and soft pedal), and the sustaining pedal allows for half-pedaling, again imitating fairly well a real piano.

Now here's the trick on price. I found the P120 online for $999. My retailer was selling it for $1200. I printed out the online store's price, took it to the retailer, and he matched it rather than lose another sale to the internet. Very cool. Of course I then purchased better headphones and a better Z-stand from the retailer! But I would have had to purchase them anyway, and I needed them immediately. I bought the second pedal online for $15 cheaper (even with shipping) than what the retailer was selling it for.

If you're not familiar with Google's merchandise search tool called Froogle, now's a good time to familiarize yourself with it. Type in "Yahama P120" and it'll give you every online retailer it can find. Then you can sort from lowest to highest priced. This is the second time I've had a brick-and-mortar retailer match a price quote I got online. \:D
_________________________
Aaron

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#688012 - 11/16/04 11:07 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
you might also check out PF500. PF500 is like P250 plus 3-pedal set and stand with online pricing about $2100-2200, which you might be able to neogotiate. i bought it for less than $2000 online and am happy with it. it would be pretty heavy though.

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#688013 - 11/16/04 11:32 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Lightnin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/04
Posts: 210
I dont think there are any internal optional tone modules for the P120. If the extra voices are important, then another model would obviously seem a better choice. You can download user manuals for any Yamaha model at the their web site (service menu, theres a Manual Library link where you enter the model number). The manuals really help to understand the differences.

You will get all manner of suggestions for speakers, most of which are oriented to carry to professional gigs, which is a different situation than at home. It gets pretty expensive that way. I dont/wont need that, and my only opinion is that we need bigger speakers for the bass response than what the little internals can do. When you visit the stores to try them out, they will surely be connected to larger external speakers.

I have a Yamaha P90 (about the same as a P120 but with no internal speakers), used only for practice at home. It was an inexpensive way to get good weighted keys and a good piano voice. I'll defer buying the ultimate until after I can actually play. \:\) I knew I would be using externals anyway (or headphones at times), so the smaller internal speakers were of no interest to me (however I've since realized they would be good now and then, to be able to carry it somewhere else to play).

I use Yamaha YST-MS50 speakers (now discontinued, I think) originally around $120, but I paid much less at a closeout/rebate situation. These are like rather decent computer speakers. They seem more than enough for home, but would obviously be insufficient for any professional use. It has one 40 watt sub-woofer on the floor, in a box near a cubic foot, and it sounds pretty good. The woofer is small, but at least 6 inches, so my guess is its probably about the same as in the CLP130. Also has two small 20 watt stereo speakers which sit on each side of the keyboard. I'm very pleased with it.

The problem with the internal speakers (esp P120) is that they are necessarily quite small, and cannot come near the lowest note frequency of a piano (27.5Hz). Really good external speakers probably cant do much better than 50Hz, if that, but about anything can do a little better than the little internal speakers.

The G note that is about halfway from middle C to the low end is about 100Hz. That key is used a lot. The G below it is about 50Hz, but I havent needed it yet myself. Sounds OK however, at least good enough. But these low notes are pretty tough in tiny speakers.

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#688014 - 11/16/04 02:06 PM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
luv2cmwork Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 11
Wow!! As I expected, great responses from great people!

It appears to me, that the P120 is the forum favorite, although there are many good choices out there. I looked the the PF500, but thought the extras weren't worth the extra $$.

I am somewhat concerned about the volume of the lower end of the sound frequency with the speakers included with the P120. I believe they are 12.5 watts (X2). But I *THINK* they'll be good enough for practice in our small home. And good headphones would be the ticket, if I wanted to hit the low end hard. Is that a fair statement? I'm toying with adding external speakers later on, so I'm just wondering about them now, trying to think ahead.

I don't mind paying a dealer extra, for good service, but I certainly don't like to get took either. I just wanted to be informed, when it came to price. If my dealer won't get a little closer to those online prices than he is, then I'll have no choice.

Again, I really appreciate your input. I'm probably going to shy away from the P250, unless I can find a good deal. I know the guy I'm working with now, wants to sell me the CLP-130 but I just don't like spending extra for the amp and the wood. I guess I'm thinking out loud here, but it seems like the P120 is my best bet.

I still welcome any and all suggestions. Thanks much, to those of you who responded.

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#688015 - 11/16/04 02:37 PM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
JSC0324 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 200
Loc: Grandvaux, VD Switzerland
Just out of curiosity, where are you? Are you in the US? Good Luck.

John

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#688016 - 11/16/04 03:41 PM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Lightnin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/04
Posts: 210
 Quote:
Originally posted by luv2cmwork:
I am somewhat concerned about the volume of the lower end of the sound frequency with the speakers included with the P120. I believe they are 12.5 watts (X2). But I *THINK* they'll be good enough for practice in our small home. And good headphones would be the ticket, if I wanted to hit the low end hard. Is that a fair statement? I'm toying with adding external speakers later on, so I'm just wondering about them now, trying to think ahead.
[/b]
The issue isnt so much about volume, unless you need to fill an auditorum, then it is. Maybe its like listening to a table radio vs a larger home stereo system. A good table radio perhaps, and its probably loud enough, and "good enough" sound perhaps, but just not the same sound as the stereo system with larger speakers. We invest lots of hours in practice, and we really do want it to sound as good as possible.

Yes, the headphones simply bypass the speakers and should sound great. Better headphones will sound better too, there is a difference in $10 and $100 headphones.

The P120 is great, no dispute at all, but it was designed to be portable, which does affect the possible sound system that can be packaged in it. I think external speakers were implied, but yes, that can be added at any later time.

Do visit a store first, and listen to the low frequency response of the internal speakers. The store will likely already have them on external speakers, so it probably is an easy comparison.

You said your kids were 1st and 3rd year students. What are they playing now? What do they think about the choices?

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#688017 - 11/16/04 07:25 PM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
fojae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 60
I went through a similar process of choosing between the p250, p120 and some others.

I chose the p250 over the p120 for the following reasons:

* p250 has 100's of voices, more fun for the kids, anything to keep them interested. I considered the p120 and a tone module, but gave up after I realized the mess of cables and black boxes that would be required by the external speakers, mixer, and tone module, and I knew the kids would never figure out how to use it.

* p250 has a 16 track sequencer which can store 100's of songs. It also has simple quantization making it easier to make "cool" songs with the kids. The p120 sequencer memory goes away when you turn off the power.

* You can load midi files from a computer onto the p250 for playback. This has been indispensible for learning classical piano: I slow some measures way, way down so I can actually understand what's going on, and then I can usually imitate.

* p250 apparently has a better piano sample than the p120, though as a beginner I couldn't really tell the difference with the same headphones

Note that if you plan to keep a computer next to your digital piano, then the sequencer and # of voices advantage of the p250 disappears: a computer sequencer can do everything the p250 does better and much more. But it might be tricky for the kids to use.

If I didn't have kids I probably would have bought the p120. But after owning the p250 for a while, I discovered some additional things that I like about it:

* Through the built-in speakers the p250 sounds wonderful. My original thoughts were something like "who cares about the speakers, the kids won't know the difference and I will use headphones all the time anyway". But now I actually prefer to play the p250 without headphones, the speakers sound that good.

* The p250 has stereo inputs which allow connecting external instruments or sound sources. I figure we will use this someday with other instruments, but right now I keep a portable cd player plugged into it, sitting right on top, which makes a pretty good sounding audio system for a small room.

I discarded the idea of the clavinova because I didn't really like the look and non-portability of the fake piano case, and because I didn't want the hassle of trying to negotiate down from the ridiculously high list prices that the piano dealers start from, while the p120 and p250 are already deeply discounted with no negotiation necessary.

 Quote:
Originally posted by luv2cmwork:
The CLP-130 *IS* the P120? That's exactly what it seemed like to me. After researching this for days on end, that's about what I came up with. There is quite an increase in price, to get up the CLP-130, for just a bigger amp and more cabinet. And frankly, I think there may be times when I would like the portability (church, for example). I don't really care what the cabinet looks like.

I'm really leaning toward the P120 now.

Can I bug you for two more questions?

1. Would it be smarter to get the P120 and consider adding a tone module in the future to get more voices? Or should we just break down and consider the P250? I just want to keep it fun (for me mostly) I'm a computer geek..sounds like I can make tones on my computer? Is that hard?

2. What kind of external amp and speakers would you recommend with the P120. I realize that may be a bag of worms...maybe just an example or two..not the best. Just in case we want to play on the road? Or kick it up a notch at home, even? I've read something about computer speakers, like Logitechs or Klipshe. Do they work? Or is there something better you'd recommend?

This is a GREAT forum! I apprecaite having access to so many knowledgable folks! [/b]

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#688018 - 11/17/04 06:07 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
luv2cmwork Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 11
More good information. What a great place!

John, I'm located in the US. I'm actually in the midwest, a very rural area. The nearest Guitar Center is 3.5 hours away. The nearest Yamaha dealers are 1 to 2 hours away.

Lightin', the kids are currently practicing on a Casio keyboard (extremely cheap, with no GHE). They also practice at least twice a week, on Grandma's acoustic piano. They played the CLP-130 and the CLP-120 and and like the 130 better. My 3rd year student, needs to step up to a "real feel" piano, for practice. I think she will continue on for at least a few more years. My first year student will hopefully go another year or two.

And I enjoy playing, although I am not very good. Maybe having a piano around will entice me to practice and play more. I love to play chords and mess around and even try to learn a favorite song or two once in awhile. But our cheap keyboard just doesn't cut it.

fojae, thanks so much for those comparisons. You know, the experienced salesman can tell me all he wants and I'm eager to hear it. But you're opinions are as important to me as any salesman's. Certainly, fojae, you've givem me something to think about. Maybe the P250 is the way to go. Then I'll have plenty of volume for most everything I want to do. And of course, the voices. I'm not sure I'd know how to create voices, with the computer. I might look at the owners manual, to see what is involved with that.

Again, thanks for your continued input. This is one of those rare sites on the Internet that have extremely valuable information, from GREAT people.

Thanks!!

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#688019 - 11/17/04 10:33 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Lightnin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/04
Posts: 210
The kids are going to really love any one of those keyboards. The real piano key touch and feel is an essential part of it, something they really need, and I bet they are thrilled with the idea.

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#688020 - 11/18/04 09:28 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
CSG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 494
FWIW, after looking at a variety of portable keyboards, I settled on the P-120 because it was portable. I wanted the P-250 but it weighs 70 something pounds. This keyboard is out in my studio for my personal use.

I also bought a Kawai CP115 digital ensemble for our living room and the kids have already figured it all out. However, this one cost me $3k.
_________________________
Pramberger JP-185 Bubinga
Kawai CP155
Yamaha P-120

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#688021 - 11/18/04 11:20 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
luv2cmwork Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 11
The kids are excited and so am I. It's a large purchase, for us and I want to decide carefully.

At first, I thought it was just this board, but as I said, I've done my homework and the P120 appears to be a favorite everywhere. There are many fine models, but the P120 seems to fit our needs.

My final step, to find them side by side and then make that final decision. The information you have provided me here has been invaluable. Again, I thank you for your opinions. As I sample the different models this time, I'll be slightly more prepared and focused.

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#688022 - 11/18/04 03:53 PM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
n Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 22
#first post despite being a regular reader

Hi all..

I've played piano for 5 years when I was younger and I'm searching for a digital piano to satisfy my need for play!

I really like the specifications and the look (also very important) of the P250 but, for more $500 one could buy the roland fantom S88 that, according to some expert, is the best digital piano/synth that one can buy.

What's your opinion?!

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#688023 - 11/19/04 05:52 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Rodney Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Caledon ON, Canada
The Fantom S is a good board but a little dated. I assume you actually mean the Fantom X. I like the Roland gear but found the Yamaha Motif ES to be a much better board (in terms of synths).

There is a fundamental difference between a digital piano and a synth. The digital piano does one thing very well (play piano sounds) and has meny features specifically designed to do that. The synth is a Swiss army knife and while it has much more programmability and voices, it lacks the realism offered by a digital piano.

You really aren't comparing apples to apples.

Rodney

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#688024 - 11/19/04 06:04 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
I prefer the Fantom X to the Motif. It's considerably more hi-fi to my ears.
_________________________
PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#688025 - 11/19/04 06:33 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
Rodney Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Caledon ON, Canada
Did I mention that I'm picking up an XR!! ;-)

Love them both but the Yamaha won my heart intially (by just a little). Needed to save a little bit of extra cash because I just couldn't have one without the other.

Actually, in all honesty, it was the Yamaha keybed that swayed my purchase.

Rodney

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#688026 - 11/19/04 07:41 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
n Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 22
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rodney:

There is a fundamental difference between a digital piano and a synth. The digital piano does one thing very well (play piano sounds) and has meny features specifically designed to do that [/b]. The synth is a Swiss army knife and while it has much more programmability and voices, it lacks the realism offered by a digital piano.

Rodney [/b]
Hi... ups, I didn't know that the Fantom S88 is older that the Fantom X8! My mistake. \:\(

I read somewhere that the feel of keys in the X8 is more realistic than any other digital piano! What features are you refering to?!

Concerning the sound, I think that one can buy "chips" with samples to add to the Fantom X8, am I wrong? I'm talking about the SRX-02 grand piano module.

In the rolandus.com site there is a flash animation about the Fantom-X with audio demos, one of them is grand piano and it impressed me much!

Despite loving classical, jazz and contemporary solo piano I'm also a drum'n'bass addicted. If I could join the best of both this worlds, it would be really great!

Thank's for your reply!

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#688027 - 11/19/04 08:09 AM Re: Homework done - Need opinions
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
The preset piano in the Fantom X is pretty nice. I'd check it out before you buy any expansion boards (not that the expansion boards are bad or anything).

And Rodney, I'll grant you the difference in the action. Personally I'm not crazy about either one -- but that kinda comes with the territory when you're playing a synth.
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PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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