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Joined: Feb 2007
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Recently I’ve been going through the rather painful process of choosing a high-end digital piano which, hopefully, will satisfy my requirements for a few years to come, until such time as my circumstances – lack of space! - enable me to get the acoustic grand I really want. Until such time, a digital piano – any digital piano – will always be very much ‘second best’. My main interest is classical piano and I’m striving to be the best pianist I possibly can be insomuch as time – I’m 56 yo – and talent will allow.

The first thing I must say is that, IMO, there is no digital piano out there that can hold a candle to a quality acoustic - especially grand - piano. I don’t want to go into all the subjective pros and cons again as they’ve already been discussed ad infinitum in these forums, and there will always be conflicting views and opinions.

I narrowed my search down to the Yamaha CLP 280, the Kawai CA91 and the Roland HP 207. I had eagerly awaited the availability of the Roland as I’d read some promising reports about it. Suffice it to say that, regrettably, I discounted this piano very quickly, as neither the keyboard touch nor grand piano sound impressed me at all.

Ok, so it was a choice between the CLP 280 and the CA91.. please remember that everything that follows is, of course, just my personal opinion.

I would like to be able to say that the decision was an easy one but this was not to be! Both pianos have their strengths and certainly their weaknesses. There will be no such compromises to make when I come to chose my acoustic grand piano!

CLP 280
Touch – I was disappointed with the GH3 (with partial wooden white keys) action, finding it to be inferior even in comparison to the action of my lowly P120 ( the piano I’m replacing). The action was ‘springy’ in that the keys did not rebound in the realistic manner I’ve observed and felt in all the acoustics I’ve played (i.e. with a marked 'hesitation' due inherent characteristics such as escapement etc). The other point about the action which suprised me was the limited downward travel range of the white keys, again compared to the acoustics I’ve tried. Dare I say it, but the keyboard felt a little ‘toy-like’ in this regard. Also, the weighting was too light to my taste. I'm fortunate enough to play a Sauter acoustic grand during my weekly lessons and the 280’s keyboard action is nothing remotely like the Sauter’s ( maybe it’s nearer the touch of some other acoustic grands, perhaps Yamaha's own offerings).

Sound – Remember I’m only interested in the grand piano sound. This was actually very pleasing to my ears and did indeed sound similar to the ‘real thing’ except for one important point – difficult to explain, but the sound was, in a sense, too ‘clinical’ and ‘pure’ (others have noted this too) and, curiously, kind of ‘detached’ from the keys producing it.

Appearance – This is where the Yamaha wins hand down, at least in the PE (Polished Ebony) version which, in my opinion, is well worth the extra money.

CA91
Touch – The AWA GRAND PRO II keyboard is the best I've played, by a significant margin. The realism in the action, lacking in the Yamaha for me, was most definitely there – neither too light nor too heavy but requiring a real ‘touch-technique’ from the pianist to play expressively, just as required for the Sauter to which I've referred. The depth of key travel was also greater than the Yamaha’s and felt ‘normal’. I didn't take accurate measurements.

Sound – I tried really hard to ‘like’ the grand piano sound but it was a little too artifical to my ears. I was able to find a more pleasing sound by fiddling with the different options – Grand 1, Grand 2, Mellow 1, 2 etc etc. but the Kawai is, perhaps, lacking in this department. I say ‘perhaps’ because I must also say that there was, unlike with the Yamaha, a ‘rawness’ to the sound which was more reminiscent of a real acoustic. Also, and whilst I wasn’t able to play the Kawai at high volume levels, the wooden soundboard does add a touch of realism in emulating the vibrations felt throughout an acoustic. I get the feeling that the Kawai's sound has to be 'explored' to be fully appreciated.

Appearance – Nothing special in the simulated Rosewood finish which I saw, but the build quality appeared satisfactory (there’s no polished finish available). I did, however, like the fact that the music desk (stand) is positioned quite high compared with all the other digitals I’ve seen, and is similar to a real grand in this regard also.

Conclusion
I’m grateful for all the invaluable advice and insight from other members in helping me make my choice of digital piano to replace the P120. I especially want to thank Pollicio, who has undergone a similar process to me and whose technical analysis of the contending pianos was certainly more, well, ‘analytical’ than mine!

As previously stated, the piano I choose has to last me a few years until my grand ‘comes along’ and, as I want to progress musically and technically as much as possible, I felt that the Kawai CA91 was the only choice I could make, exclusively because of its superior keyboard action. I’m confident that with some ‘fiddling’, the sound can also be made more to my liking and, if not, perhaps I can improve even this by adding extra sounds from my computer. Must admit I'm not very knowledgeable in this regard.

In closing I want to emphasize that the CA91 is probably the best DP available... for me !

There are far better pianists than me amongst the members (AJB and PoStTeNeBrAsLuX to name but two) who are perfectly happy with their CLP 280s. Most, however, also own fine acoustic grands and use their CLPs mainly for silent practice. Unfortunately I don’t yet have the ‘luxury’ of a real grand and so my decision has been coloured accordingly.

I will add my further impressions of the Kawai after I’ve lived with it for a few weeks. Incidentally, to illustrate just how difficult this decision has been for me, I actually went so far as ordering a CLP 280PE last week from Cherubini in Rome, only to subsequently amend my order after re-appraising the two pianos at length, over the weekend.

Michael smile


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Cruiser,
i feel a little responability for you choice :-)
i'ts a nice situation and, i think, one of the values of this Forum....

I'm sure you will enjoy your new DP!

Stefano
About the color i suggst to consider the darkest rosewood...


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Congratulations on your new piano. I've no doubt you have made the right choice. I went through the same procedure earlier this year with the same result, and second your findings on their relative pros and cons.
You can also be reassured that Cherubini support what they sell, should you have a problem.


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One more thing:
If you have space and still own your P120 when the CA91 will arive you may try to use the P120 as sound generator connecting it as slave with the midi and conecting the P120 analog out to the CA91 analog in. With this configuration the soundboard should work even or the Yamaha sounds!
Stefano


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Quote
Originally posted by polliccio:
One more thing:
If you have space and still own your P120 when the CA91 will arive you may try to use the P120 as sound generator connecting it as slave with the midi and conecting the P120 analog out to the CA91 analog in. With this configuration the soundboard should work even or the Yamaha sounds!
Stefano
Very interesting Stefano ...do you mean that I could possibly play the P120's sounds from the Kawai's keyboard, when connected as you've suggested? - thanks!

Michael


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I didn't tried because i returned my p140 immediately.
bu it should work!

You play on the CA91 keyboard, the P120 does the generation and again the analog signal return to the CA91 that mix it with the "local" sound, if any. The results will b flow trought the CA91 amp/speakers/soundboard chain.

Let us Know!!


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Yes, I agree it should work.


Michael, receive my congratulation for your great purchase and my wishes of great joy at its play for many years.


As you know I am currently under the same process, with the problem of not having any of the three models on display in 300Km.


My main concern is getting a piano that has real presence when played, and doesn't feel as I am just triggering a nice recording from fine speakers. The soundboard of the CA91 could help with this, I think.

This is my guess about the sound samples of the CA91: they are made with very close microphone techniques. So they sound from the headphones as the source from inside a piano, more than the sound coming from a piano, as Yamaha does. But maybe once they are output from the speakers and enriched with the soundboard you get a more pure, clean sound. Not post-processed, but more a raw instrument sound.


I am strongly leaning towards te CA91 myself, the main contender right now being a Yamaha CVP-407, as its practice features and score display could help me from day zero at my late learning quest.


Best,


Andrés.

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Quote
Originally posted by polliccio:
Cruiser,
i feel a little responability for you choice :-)
...you are Stefano, and I'm grateful for your insight! smile


Quote
Originally posted by maserman1:
Congratulations on your new piano. I've no doubt you have made the right choice. I went through the same procedure earlier this year with the same result, and second your findings on their relative pros and cons.
You can also be reassured that Cherubini support what they sell, should you have a problem
...thanks maserman1. I haven't got the piano yet but, so far, I'm impressed by Cherubini - their prices are unbeatable, here in Germany at least. smile

Quote
Originally by andgold:
Michael, receive my congratulation for your great purchase and my wishes of great joy at its play for many years.
... thanks Andres! I'm sorry to hear that the DP's you're considering are not readily available in your locality. I hope you get to try them anyway and I'd be very interested to hear the outcome. I can't wait to get my CA91 and, as I've said, I'll post my impressions later. smile

Michael


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Nice choice crusier, that looks like a terrific digital piano. Does anyone know of they come pre assembled? or do you have to put them together yourself? My biggest fear in buying a digital piano is that I would have to put everything together myself..


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Hello, Daryl!


Yes, the piano comes unassembled, you can evaluate its difficulty at its manual (page 80): http://www.kawai.de/service/ca91_71_51_e.pdf

Two persons are required.


If you definitely need pre-assembled the way to go are the local dealers who make the job for their total price.


Best,

Andres.

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Daryl,
it cames in two main pieces top and stand plus some minor detail (ie pedals and side panels).
I assembled it in 30 min with the help of my daughter (15 years old). It's very easy.
You need a second person because you have to put the top on the stand and the top is big and heavy (about 45 kg).
Stefano


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Have you played piano MIDI files on the Kawai yet? (Like the ones on the Yamaha e-competition website).
I would be VERY interested to know if they play "properly". So far, I have only had success by playing them on a Disklavier (which of course is what they were recorded on..) or a Clavinova. Thanks.

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CONGRATS. A well considered choice. Enjoy your playing. Adrian


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Quote
Originally posted by AJB:
CONGRATS. A well considered choice. Enjoy your playing. Adrian
Thanks Adrian, good to hear from you!

As I've said, my choice is very much a compromise and I won't be 100% happy until I own a fine grand, like yours. smile


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Quote
Have you played piano MIDI files on the Kawai yet?
.
No, I didn't. But if you send me a file or a link i can try this for you.
Stefano


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Dear Michael (cruiser),


Even if I understand that you don't like to talk about products in a negative way, I long for your impressions on the HP-207.


I know you had high hopes for it, but haven't found your experiences while testing it in comparision to the CA91 and CLP280. They will be of great value to me.


Also, did you appreciate the effect of iAFC while testing the CLP280? Does it add true presence to the sound of the piano? Is it worth 1000€? If deciding on a Yamaha it will be between the CVP-405 (no iAFC) or CVP-407 (which does have it together with wooden keyboard, some extra sounds and larger panel, but also 1.300 euros of extra cost).


Thanks,

Andrés.


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