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#689090 - 09/01/03 04:26 PM Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
basebearatone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Traverse City, MI
I am looking for a really good digital piano. I have a budget of 4,000 dollars.My most important concerns are the quality of the sound, the action of the piano, I want to actually feel like i am on an acoustic piano. Any suggestions are needed if you can give them! I guess perfect time for the old piano to break down!

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#689091 - 09/01/03 06:26 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
Read what I wrote in this discussion :
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000269

Succes!

Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689092 - 09/01/03 08:55 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
basebearatone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Traverse City, MI
Any opinion of the yamaha CLP vs the CVP series>? I am looking at the CLP990

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#689093 - 09/02/03 05:43 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by basebearatone:
Any opinion of the yamaha CLP vs the CVP series>? I am looking at the CLP990 [/b]
I'm not sure about it because I never tried a CVP, but I guess that they are not different from the CLP series in sound and keyboard action. They just have much, much more "bells and whistles". I've heard a guy play a CVP 900 (same keyboard as the CLP 990) and what he could do with that instrument was amazing. You can nearly replace a whole band or orchestra with that thing (off course, sound through speakers always has some limitations). Anyway, I'm a classical pianist and don't need all those extras, that's why I preferred the CLP.

Rgds,
Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689094 - 09/02/03 07:47 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
I'm a fan of Roland. Try looking at a Roland HP3, HP7, and KR5. Also, you may be able to find a dealer witha left over HP557. (Last year's model)
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#689095 - 09/02/03 07:48 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
basebearatone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Traverse City, MI
Well I went to my local yamaha dealer today adn they said that I wouldn't find a yamaha that wasn't with springs for under 10K
Bit much for my price range I did find a Kawai CP175 and a Roland KR-7. These are to two finalists so I need as much input as possible. The dealer said to just let them know which one and they will install it tomorrow. Please Help. Thanks for your input

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#689096 - 09/03/03 05:15 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
This is my opinion on this :
I would prefer the Kawai. I've played a CA 1000 and it has the same keyboard as the CP 175 : wooden keys and the AWA PRO action.
I needed a piano on which I could easily develop new techniques. I tried a lot of keyboards and especially disliked the Roland keyboards. For one they are way too light which can make really fast passages nearly impossible to play without stumbling over your own fingers. You NEED a certain resistance in the keys. Also wooden keys have a better weight distribution what makes them more pleasant to play and what makes the action more realistic.
If you take every aspect of keyboards in consideration, then I believe the Kawai CP 175 gets closer to reality than the Roland.
Another thought : take your time trying them both out, compare them head to head. Such a purchase should not be made in 5 minutes because you might regret it later on.

Rgds,
Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689097 - 09/04/03 01:41 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Now, a view from the other side! In touch and feel, the Roland PA5 action feels the closest to a piano to me. The true touch is not determined by the material component of the key, but the internal workings. The geometry of the Roland action duplicates the touch and resistance found in many european grands. Of course, others feel differently. Let me just point out that even in acoustic grands, the actions can feel very different from one brand to the next. Find the one you prefer, and decide for yourself. If you cannot tell the difference, you would be fine with either, and may want to have a third party try them both for you and make a suggestion.

Are the other features important to you at all? The reason I'm asking is the Roland music notation program is really great for practicing and perfecting pieces. I use it on all new pieces I'm working on. Personally, I have seen students in our studio use the Music Tutor in their lessons, and their progression has been much quicker than usual. Plus there are some good ear training, rhythm exercises, and chord trainers built into the instrument that are very helpful.

If you already are an accomplished player, go with the one that sounds and feels the best. If you are a student, Roland will make a much better investment into your education.

Good luck!
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#689098 - 09/04/03 07:40 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
Now, a view from the other side! In touch and feel, the Roland PA5 action feels the closest to a piano to me. The true touch is not determined by the material component of the key, but the internal workings.[/b]

*Sigh* Tell me, Luke's Dad, if they would put wooden keys in the Rolands with the PA5 action, how could it possibly NOT get closer to reality?
That some people prefer the Roland action and some the Yamaha actions, is a fact, that's just personal taste, just like one acoustic grand's or upright's touch is different than the touch of another.
Like I told in another discussion the Natural (indeed, wooden) keyboard has Yamaha's GH action, so the same "internal workings" as other popular Yamaha pianos, the action that is still used in the very recent CLP 120, 130 and 150. Do you believe me if I say the wooden keyboard adds and doesn't take something away from the realism?


Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689099 - 09/04/03 08:15 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
JimM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/04/02
Posts: 200
Loc: Northern California
The wooden keys on the Yamaha "natural" keyboard are only part of the reason it feels different from other Yamaha models. The internal mechanism is entirely different from the weighted metal rods on their other digital pianos. Dealers can show you cut-away models of the two systems. Since they don't make the "natural" action with plastic keys it's impossible to tell how much wooden keys per se contribute to the feel.

Keyboard feel is a religious issue - go with whatever you like best!
_________________________
=========
Jim
Mason and Hamlin BB, Clavinova CVP900

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#689100 - 09/05/03 06:58 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
The wooden keys on the Yamaha "natural" keyboard are only part of the reason it feels different from other Yamaha models.
The internal mechanism is entirely different from the weighted metal rods on their other digital pianos. Dealers can show you cut-away models of the two systems.[/b]

Oops, yes, you're completely right, I've misread something on the Yamaha Clavinova website about the Natural Keyboard action... Sorry \:\)

Since they don't make the "natural" action with plastic keys it's impossible to tell how much wooden keys per se contribute to the feel.[/b]

Good point. Hadn't thought about it that way.

Keyboard feel is a religious issue - go with whatever you like best! [/b]

Amen \:D

Rgds,
Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689101 - 09/05/03 03:56 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Michiel,

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was attacking your position about the wooden key issue. In the case of the Yamaha GT's where they use the action from a GH acoustic, the action is incredible, but it's not the same as the CLP and CVP Yamahas. You preferred the touch of the CLP's, and that's great, and it's the right piano for you. The wooden keys do play some part init. You spent many hours trying the pianos and chose the one that felt best to you. There are others, however, with as much experience and ability as you, that have preferred actions by other manufacturers. Some with wooden keys, others without. Some very accomplished pianists feel that Roland, with it's plastic keys and gravity action feels closer to an acoustic than the others. Once you get to this level of playing and performance, it does become a personal choice. The supposition that it has wooden keys, so it must feel better can be misleading. That's why I felt it necessary to supply my own opinion in contradiction with yours. I'm very glad you got a great digital with a touch that you very much enjoy, and I wish you the best with it.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#689102 - 09/05/03 07:20 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
I'm sorry if it seemed like I was attacking your position about the wooden key issue.[/b]

Don't worry, sometimes I get a little too fanatic about my own opinion and then I feel like every critiscism is an "attack". No need to feel sorry, it's just one of many behavioral flaws I have \:D
But, I'm working on them \:\)

There are others, however, with as much experience and ability as you, that have preferred actions by other manufacturers.[/b]

Probably people with a lot more experience and ability too \:\)
I do notice that a lot of experienced pianists rather go for acoustic pianos than digitals. I wonder if digitals will ever fully replace acoustic pianos.

The supposition that it has wooden keys, so it must feel better can be misleading.[/b]

Aargh, you keep saying that like I took it for granted :p
It was just an observation[/b] that I liked the wooden keyboards more than the plastic ones. When I started gathering information I was pretty convinced I would end up with a CLP 170 : plastic keys! Testing and comparing made me decide otherwise.

But! To end a lot of discussion : on the following site I found out that (if the info is correct) the new yamaha CLP 175 features the GH3 keyboard and has wooden keys! If that is true I challenge you to compare the keyboard of the CLP 175 with that of the CLP 170 \:D
Here's the site :
http://www.demmer-piano.de/tiyamadigi.htm

That's why I felt it necessary to supply my own opinion in contradiction with yours.[/b]

Don't hesitate to do it again ;\)

I'm very glad you got a great digital with a touch that you very much enjoy, and I wish you the best with it. [/b]

I love the instrument more and more every day \:\)

Rgds,
Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689103 - 09/06/03 11:12 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
[qb]
I do notice that a lot of experienced pianists rather go for acoustic pianos than digitals. I wonder if digitals will ever fully replace acoustic pianos.

Michiel [/b]
In my recital hall, I always keep two pianos for duets. Recently, we had unveiled the Roland KR17 at a special promotion, and one of the Steinway B's was taken out of the hall for space reasons. There was a recital the next day, one of my movers was out sick, and there was no way to bring back the B for that evening, so I put the KR17 in the spot for the accompaniest piano. The piano teacher came in and nearly had a heart attack, she was so upset. After 20 minutes of screaming at me, I kindly asked her to at least try the piano and if it wasn't satisfactory, I would refund her money (it was a little joke, as we don't charge for the recital hall!) She played on it for a little and grumbled that it would be acceptable. Two hours later, after the recital, I sat down with her at the piano, she played it some more and then asked about it's other capabilities. Three days later, she and her husband came back and spent over $20,000 for aDigital Piano! She traded in her Kawai KG2! This woman had gotten her degree from Rice University, and had gotten her Masters in Performance at Oberlein.

The point is, there are two things holding back digital pianos at this point: 1)Lack of exposure. Many teachers and performers that condemn digitals have never even played them. That teacher I mentioned had told three adult beginners not to buy a digital piano , and warned them about how horrible they were. So, they bought poor used uprights instead. Two of them quit (surprise, surprise). The third was flabbergasted when she came in for her lesson, the Kawai was gone, and there was a digital in it's place. 2)The other problem is preconception. People just don't want to accept any kind of change, especially in a traditional instrument like the piano. People that are resistant to new things will sit down at a digital piano, expecting it to feel lousy and have poor tone. They build it up so much in their minds, that when they play they will hear and feel things that don't exist. Once I had a pianist sit at a digital, complain that the action was too light, then chose a used Knabe where the action was even lighter. Preconception is a powerful thing.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#689104 - 09/06/03 11:25 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
Another problem with digitals is apparently price. I can't believe anyone would spend $20k for a digital!!! Don't get me wrong -- I have a studio with lots of electronics (including a new Fantom-S). But $20k? I can't imagine what the expense is for.

I put off buying an acoustic piano for years because I felt that a $3k digital was a better value than a $12k acoustic piano (which was all I could afford). I eventually bought a Steinway B (for just a bit over $12k ;\) ), and of course it's wonderful. If you're talking about a sampler with the latest/greatest orchestral libraries, then I guess I could imagine the price getting up over $10k. But I don't get the $20k figure.

Luke's Dad -- maybe you can help me understand the value in that price point...
_________________________
PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#689105 - 09/06/03 03:20 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Steve Y, it's a digital grand piano. It also includes a player system, surround sound speaker system, etc.... There's a number of interesting features to it, but it's definitely a niche instrument. Not many of them are sold. I was a little thrown off by them myself, but I have come to see some purpose for it when compared to some of the similarly priced player grand pianos, lets say a Yamaha GP1 with a Disclavier system.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#689106 - 09/06/03 05:05 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
The point is, there are two things holding back digital pianos at this point: 1)Lack of exposure. Many teachers and performers that condemn digitals have never even played them. That teacher I mentioned had told three adult beginners not to buy a digital piano , and warned them about how horrible they were. So, they bought poor used uprights instead.[/b]

In the second store I went to, the one where I bought my CLP, a woman was there with her parents and her daughter. I believe the daughter was about 8 years old. They were looking for an acoustic piano for her, her teacher had said a digital piano would be bad for the development of her technique.
They had narrowed their choices down to two models : a first hand Pleyel or a second hand Kawai, both uprights, price about 5000. At the moment I was busy testing and comparing the CLP 990 to the GT 20 and they asked me for my opinion, they themselves had not touched any of the pianos, they had just looked at the price. I played the Pleyel and was blown away by the bad touch and the bad pedal. I didn't like it at all. The Kawai was better, but it was pretty old, some loose keys and the pedal made a lot of noise. I told them that if they wanted the best for their budget they should have bought a digital, like I was doing. I couldn't help overhearing the following discussion with the salesman \:o They eventually bought the Kawai because they trusted the judgement of the teacher more. If the teacher had been there with them, I would have respected his opinion, but he wasn't there, he was probably miles away, not even caring about their purchase... If they are so worried about what their pupils will buy, why won't they offer some assistance? Like you said, he probably never even touched a digital.
I think it's sad.

Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689107 - 09/06/03 05:14 PM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
Steve Y, it's a digital grand piano. It also includes a player system, surround sound speaker system, etc.... There's a number of interesting features to it, but it's definitely a niche instrument. Not many of them are sold. I was a little thrown off by them myself, but I have come to see some purpose for it when compared to some of the similarly priced player grand pianos, lets say a Yamaha GP1 with a Disclavier system. [/b]
Now that we're in price discussions, what justifies the price tag of 8000 for a CLP 175? Is it just the better sound system? I just can't believe you have to pay an additional 4000 just for the little wing they glued on! Maybe it's the polished ebony finish?
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#689108 - 09/07/03 03:07 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
rajoo_dup1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 17
Loc: india
dear luke's dad
i am fully agree with yuor earlier posting which is very informative and useful for me and thanks for the same.
now i would like to ask u one question as you are fan of roland digital piano recently i bought roland's fp-5 digital piano which is one month old with me. now i wanted to hear comments and yuor valued reviews on this piano compare to another same range models available (us$1800).is this piano is worhth spending? as i personaly dont have chance to compare with other models like yamaha p-120/250/kawai es-1/3/5.korg sp-300/500.give your rweport which will highly apricited by me .with warm regards
rajoo from india.

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#689109 - 09/08/03 12:20 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
basebearatone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Traverse City, MI
All comments have been appreciated. I am wondering if anyone has any info on the Roland KR-7 specifically. I don't plan on getting a Yamaha since the local dealers are jerks and always try to force a sale. So I am looking primarily at Roland since I don't see yamaha helping students too much in learning their music.

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#689110 - 09/08/03 10:48 AM Re: Need to replace old piano fast class starts weds!
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
basebearatone: What info do you need on the KR7? I'd be more than happy to help.

rajoo: I don't have as much info on those particular models. I can tell you this, Kawai has firmly built a good reputation in their home digital line, but their reputation isn't as strong in the proline. At that level, Korg stands out over Yamaha, Kurzweil is a good choice, and you can't go wrong with Roland. Strictly speaking from the unit sales, Roland seems to be a favorite at that point, but you can't go wrong with any of them. Heck, over time, you might want to add on the Korg and Kurzweil and have all three in a lab or studio type of setup.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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