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#689788 - 03/15/05 01:02 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
DAMeyn - So the PF500 doesn't use an OpAmp like most receivers and pre-amps? I hear a click (like a relay) when the headphone plug is inserted. Is this a switch redirecting the amplifier's output from the speakers to the resistors, leading to the HP jack?
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#689789 - 03/16/05 08:01 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
DAMeyn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 22
Loc: Fredericksburg VA
Dezafinado: I haven't investigated that possibility, don't hear any clicks. The speakers being disconnected when the phones are plugged in might generate a click, if a relay is involved. By the way, the option of whether to have the speakers shut off when plugging in the phones is software-selectable, look at the "other setttings" menu. Not all systems use a separate sub-amp for the headphones, some just tee off the amplifier main speaker output via a 250 ohm resistor (for example) for headphones. It's not possible to measure the output resistance at the headphone jacks with an ohmeter, because there is a capacitor in the circuit to block DC current from the final power amp. Yamaha and other digipiano makers should include more tech data (listen up, dealers & techs), and at least make it and a set of schematics available on special order. My old Hammond had a complete set of schematics, which enabled me to do a lot of my own trouble shooting and repairs, and make mods as I chose. They were pretty complicated, that was before the days of large scale integrated circuits. Modern instruments should have simpler ones.
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#689790 - 03/16/05 02:44 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
FUNNYDOGNV Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 20
Loc: NV USA
The schematics of Yamaha is part of the service manual. You can get it by calling their parts line @ 1-800-854-1569, press 1 then 1 again. The manual is pretty detailed with lots of information, down to every nuts, bolts, chips, resistors, even stickers. Very good reading material if you're technically inclined and like to tinker.

The output impedence of most amplifiers can't be measured by an ohm meter, but can be measured by having the amplifier output a constant signal (e.g., 1 kHz sine wave). Attach several dummy loads, and extrapolate the impedence from the voltage across the load. Note the resistance of the load needed for a meaningful measurement can be so low it might overload the amplifier.

Don't know about PF500 specifically, but on a similar model they use power op-amp to drive the headphone output. There's a 33 Ohms series resistor between the op-amp and the jack. Since negative feedback is used the op-amp's output impedence is practically zero. Therefore the 33 Ohms become the only effective impedence.

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#689791 - 03/16/05 03:42 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
 Quote:
Originally posted by FUNNYDOGNV:
Don't know about PF500 specifically, but on a similar model they use power op-amp to drive the headphone output. There's a 33 Ohms series resistor between the op-amp and the jack. Since negative feedback is used the op-amp's output impedence is practically zero. Therefore the 33 Ohms become the only effective impedence. [/b]
Would the "similar model" be the P250?
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#689792 - 03/17/05 08:37 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
FUNNYDOGNV Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 20
Loc: NV USA
CLP170. But I think it's quite similar to CLP150 an P250. I doublt Yamaha would re-invent the wheel each time for something as peripheral as headphone amps. But the surest way is getting the specific schematics for the specific model.

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#689793 - 03/18/05 05:45 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
drd Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 8
Headphones ... what is the standard against which the specifications are derived? The 'standard head' -- so to speak.

For example, if you just run an audio sweep by applying a standard audio power level at the input to the headphone connector, it says nothing about the acoustic coupling between the headphone speaker, and the the microphone that is used as a transducer to arrive at the specification data.

That means that you might have an artifact from the acoustic coupling that is not truly indicative of the headphone response. If there were a standard test response curve from the standard head, then at least a relative comparison could be made. Brightness, bass response, position sensation, etc. are parameters that are not easy to measure, somewhat subjective, and difficult to compare.

A good standard "head" would be very useful for this.

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#689794 - 03/18/05 12:12 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
trihai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 23
When you use the headphone, do you hear the echo at all? I am using a Sony MDR7056. If I play one note at a time, when the sound faded away, I hear another echo sound with the same tone as the note I play. Any of you experience this? I am using the Roland FP3.

It's fine to use the headphone when I play the whole song but if I just play one note at a time then the Echo kinda bother me.

Thanks.
Trihai

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#689795 - 03/18/05 01:28 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
When you use headphones, everything in the sample (recording) is close-up so it's more enhanced. Try adjusting the Reverb and soundboard level. With my PF500, different settings for Reverb, Soundboard and harmonic content are used for phones and without them. I tend to lower all these attributes when I play with headphones.
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#689796 - 03/18/05 04:14 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
trihai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 23
I turned the reverb off and the echo sound's still there. The echo sound is not that loud but I can hear it every time I play a single note. For example, if I play middle C, I will hear the sound "CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC" and then I will hear something echo "izzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz". Is that normal?

Thanks.

Trihai

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#689797 - 03/18/05 04:32 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
You got me there. Perhaps it's the way it was sampled. So stop playing just one note!!! Hehe...
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#689798 - 03/18/05 05:17 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
trihai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 23
When you use the headphone with your Digital piano, do you notice that echo sound too Dezafinado?

Thanks.
Trihai

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#689799 - 03/20/05 05:54 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
Question regarding higher impedance headphones: Will a small mixer, like a Mackie 1202, serve the same purpose in boosting the signal of headphones as a headphone amp?

Second question, regarding impedance: Will a 300 ohm set of headphones require half the signal boost as a 600 ohm set? (AKG K240DF/600ohms vs Sennheiser HD600/300ohms)
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#689800 - 03/20/05 12:54 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
 Quote:
Originally posted by trihai:
When you use the headphone with your Digital piano, do you notice that echo sound too Dezafinado?

Thanks.
Trihai [/b]
I don't notice any echos with my PF500, even with the volume at maximum. It could be that the sound of the decay on your piano sounds like an echo.
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#689801 - 03/20/05 01:21 PM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Joseph:
Question regarding higher impedance headphones: Will a small mixer, like a Mackie 1202, serve the same purpose in boosting the signal of headphones as a headphone amp?

Second question, regarding impedance: Will a 300 ohm set of headphones require half the signal boost as a 600 ohm set? (AKG K240DF/600ohms vs Sennheiser HD600/300ohms) [/b]
Q1: Mixer should help with higher impedance HPs. If you're into HiFi HPs, a dedicated Amp is an excellent idea. This is something I'm looking into in the near future because most of the top-end HPs have higher impedance.

Q2: Ohm rating is the resistance. You also need to find out the efficiency or sensitivity rating (sound pressure level or "db SPL/mW"). It's kinda like car engines - horsepowers per liter. Assuming 2 HPs having the same "db SPL/mW", one at 300 ohms requires 1/2 the power to drive than one at 600 ohms to produce the same sound level.

Calculator: http://www.headphone-amplifier.com/calculator.htm
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#689802 - 03/21/05 06:09 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
dezafinado, Thanks for the help. I've been following this thread for a while and have found it very informative.
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Gary

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#689803 - 03/23/05 10:09 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
Just a follow-up to my own questions on this thread, and perhaps a reference to previous questions. I've just gotten a set of Sennheiser HD 600 headphones to use with my Roland RD700-SX. These headphones have an impedance of 300 Ohms, and when I plugged them directly into the keyboard, they work great, with the volume on the keyboard only about 1/3 of the way up. I'm using my mixer with them, for a bit of additional control, but the combination of signal strength from the keyboard and the 300 ohms rating of the Sennheiser seems to be a perfect match.
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Gary

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#689804 - 03/23/05 11:01 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
dezafinado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 66
Loc: SoCal
Excellent HPs!

Though high impedance, they are efficient (97 db/mW). And your keyboard HP output is probably low resistance too.
_________________________
I'm turnin' tricks, I'm gettin' fixed, I'm back on Boogie Street...

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#689805 - 03/23/05 11:19 AM Re: What headphones do you use?
Gary Joseph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Austin, Texas
 Quote:
Excellent HPs!

Though high impedance, they are efficient (97 db/mW). And your keyboard HP output is probably low resistance too.
Yes, they really are nice. The knowledge regarding nominal impedance and signal level at the headphone jack was new to me, and guided my purchase. Much appreciation. \:D
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Gary

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