Can someone please tell me the difference. My main question is: Why would someone pay 2k for a Yamaha P250 and not pay the extra 1k for the Yamaha Motif ES8. Is the action the same? Are the acoustic samples the same? Do they both sound as good as the other? If so, why would someone want to limit themselves on a P250?

Thank you

Let's see if this helps:

Synthesizer: electronic keyboard instrument with a variety of sounds (hundreds usually). Will usually have extensive sound editing & performance features. May or may not have 88 weighted keys.

Digital Piano: electronic keyboard instrument that focuses mainly on piano and other keyboard instruments such as rhodes, wurlitzer, and organ. Most of the time, digital pianos lack the editing & performance features that synthesizers have. They also have fewer sounds than synthesizers. Since it's focus is piano, it almost always has 88 weighted keys.

Workstation: electronic keyboard instrument that has recording capabilities built in that allow you to create and record music either via "MIDI sequencing", "audio recording", or both. Typically, workstations are like synthesizers (hundreds of sounds and editing/performance features) with recording capabilities added. Some workstations are more digital-piano-like and have 88 weighted keys. Others are more synth like and may have 61 non-weighted keys.

The idea is that if you're primarily a piano player, that you should get a "digital piano". If you want to create & record music from a variety of instruments, get a "workstation". A "syntheszier" is valuable if you already have a workstation and you're adding a second keyboard to your set-up, or if you use a computer for recording. In other words, "synth" + "computer" = "workstation".

In the real world, workstations often have sounds that meet or surpass the quality of a digital piano. The same is true for the action. So why would someone buy a P250 or RD700SX instead of a Motif or Fantom? Either they're not interested in the extra features, or their budget can't handle the extra cost.

One more thing:
Many of today's electronic instruments can be expanded by adding more sounds at a later date. Roland was the first one to do this with the JV series. They have an extensive library of "expansion boards" that are VERY easy to install, and each contain several hundred sounds. For example, there's a "Symphonic Strings" expansion board that really sounds quite amazing! There's also a "piano" expansion board that provides even better sounds than the factory presets.

This does two things:
1. It keeps your keyboard from becoming obsolete as you can add state-of-the-art sounds years down the road.
2. It blurs the line between digital piano and workstation as they have access to the same expansion boards (RD700SX and Fantom use the same boards).

Hope this helps.
Steve

Thank you Steve. So, are you saying the two workstations we are considering: Roland Fatom and Yamaha ES8 have as good as or better action than that of a digital piano? As well as better or as good as piano acoutic samples?

Not quite!!!

Generally, the digitial pianos (at least the higher end models) have a different action, as well as larger/additional piano samples (such as key off samples) and potentially different effects (resonance) and features (half damper) that are dedicated to recreating piano sounds.

The workstation piano sounds are very good (and both are expandable via either hardware expansion boards or software sample libraries) which typically CAN'T be done on dedicated digital pianos (RDx00SX and S90ES being exceptions but these are portable stage pianos and still not the highes end digital units offered by either vendor)

As good as the piano sounds are on the workstations, a top-end digital piano will likely sound better (for that specific voice/patch).

Rodney

Rodney,
Perhaps what you say is true for Yamaha -- I wouldn't know as I'm not familiar with all of the high-end home digitals. However, this is certainly not the case with Roland or Korg. The Fantom action is as good as anything Roland makes. The same is true for Korg. Also, the Fantom piano sounds are considerably better than the RD700SX (not counting the expansion board). But even with the expansion board, the converters & preamp found in the Fantom are better than the RD700SX. The proof would be found when A/B-ing them using the expansion board sounds. Korg's best piano sounds are also found on their workstations -- not on their digital pianos.

SteveY,

I might be wrong but I thought:

The escapment action was only available on the top end HP, HPi, and RG models of digital piano consoles and not the Fantom or RD700SX (but they do have the standard Progressive Hammer-Action). The SRX-11, 4 layer piano expansion is actually from the RD700SX and not the Fantom which comes with a 3 layer sample set. In addtion the Roland digital pianos also include New “Grand Space” and “Dynamic Emphasis” effects which I don't think are included in either the Fantom or RD boards (although there is a new resonance effect in both).

In Yamaha's case, the GH3 and wooden keyboards are limited to the higher end Clavinova line and not included in any of their portable boards. As well the iAFC effect (which requires microphone input for dynamic effects control) is also limited to the high end Clavinovas.

I'm going to audition a Fantom XR next week (hopefully with the SRX-11) and I'll let you know how it compares to the Yamaha Clavinova CLP-170. I'm still on the fence on this purchase since I already have all the sounds/samples I/my son NEED but it is high on my WANT list.

Rodney

Rodney,
I've done quite a bit of work professionally for Roland, including working as a product specialist. I also was the keynote for a clinic at winter NAMM 2004 when we introduced the Fantom X series. Don't get hung-up on marketing terms. Why would Roland save it's best sounds for products marketed for the home (which is also a smaller market for them)? Ultimately sound quality is subjective, but the talk around the water cooler at Roland is that the Fantom is THE "flagship" keyboard for the company at present.

Another thing that a lot of people don't know is that the "implementation" (for lack of a better word) of a particular action is as important as the action itself. For example, try two different Yamaha keyboards that both have the GH3 action. It's entirely possible that one clearly outplays the other. There are a lot of factors beyond a marketing term that determine the end user experience.

Another secret: this isn't specific to Roland, but sometimes a particular "build" influences the quality of the sound. For example, the now discontinued Roland XP80 workstation shared the same sound engine and patch list as the JV1080 tone module. However, the XV80 was clearly the better sounding instrument (I owned both). Similarly the XV3080 and XV5080 were supposed to be identical other than the XV5080's sample RAM capabilities. However, the XV5080 sounded clearly superior to the XV3080 due to higher quality converters. This is true with Yamaha & Korg as well.

I guess this is where different manufacturers try to distinguish their specific markets. Yamaha has an extremely large home market with the Clavinova line and goes to great lengths to distinguish those units (at least for simulating accoustic piano) and justifying the price premium.

I agree that implementations of the same model keybeds can be different. I tried the new CVP-307 last week and fount that the action was significantly more bouncy than the CLP-270 sitting right beside it which was different than my CLP-170 (all these models apparently have the same GH3 keybed).

What is clear is that some implementations would require a home unit simply due to weight (wooden keys).

The issue of how close is the feel to a real piano to me is mute. I prefer a weighted keyboard with a smooth action and a softer stop at the bottom, but others will be different. Even if you are hung up on emulating the weight and feel of a real accoustic instrument, this should be mute since no two pianos feel the same.

Back to workstations, I like both the Roland and Yamaha & would love to own both but alas the ES won out in my case (but I'm considering a XR as well).

Rodney

I definately found the clp 170 action different to my clp 270,it felt looser to me with more bounce

Hey Guys,

To me anyways, the Roland and Yamaha high end home models have a slightly more positive response than the flagship Workstations (Fantom X8 and MotifES8).

I can't exactly explain what it is, but as I grew up playing an Acoustic Grand, (Yam C3) I really enjoy the feel of the PA-5 with escapement. (as Rodney said it's only available on the High end HP, HPi, KR and RG Models)

Yamaha's GH3 feels really nice in the new CLP-200 series (especially the 270 and 280) but I just can't get my head around the sound. (Very personal, I know)

To say that Roland or Yamaha don't put their best foot forward in the home models in terms of sound though, that's unfortunately not true. Granted the sound design is different in ways, but the sound is also designed to come out of the pianos speaker system, not a PA or studio monitors. The reason that so many of the best sounds can make it onto home products is that there generally only needs to be 10-40 sounds per product as opposed to hundreds. The technology exists so it gets used.

PPBC

However I highly reccomend trying the RG-7 Grand. It has the same Superior Grand that the RD700SX has

What I'm saying ProPiano, is that leading edge technology doesn't debut in the home division -- it begins in the pro market, which drives both Yamaha and Roland's R&D. You're right when you say that the best sounds "can make it onto home products". That's exactly what happens -- it starts out on the flagship pro products and "makes its way" onto the home stuff later.

The flagship professional products drive the market. That's my point.

SteveY.

Good call and I don't disagree that it is the way that many manufacturers repurpose technology.

Funny enough with Roland, alot of the technology (sounds I mean) beleive it or not, start in the Atelier organs, and Work their way from there. This obviously is a unique approach but it's true.

If you ever have the opportunity, try a Luxury Series Atelier Organ and you will recognize many of the sounds you find on current Workstations from Roland.

PPBC

PianoGuy
I also at times question the sound of my 270 but I dont prefer the Rolands so not sure what to do,infact I really prefered the P250 I tried the other day