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#696066 - 11/02/08 04:19 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Orez Eno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 179
Loc: New England
 Quote:
Miracle wrote:[/b]
I thought the last one was too good to be the CLP-230. And still I was practicing for over an hour on my CLP-230 yesterday.
I select Piano Voice #2, Brilliance = Mellow, Reverb = Room, and Effect = None.

I believe I also played with the depth of the reverb effect using the special function for that purpose. If I remember correctly, I reduced the effect slightly, but I'm not sure. I did that 3 years ago. For me to check what I did I would have to get the manual out again. Yuk!

I must admit that I would be very disappointed with the instrument if it had only Piano Voice #1, which sounds artificial to me.
_________________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

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#696067 - 11/02/08 04:23 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Orez Eno:
the CLP-230, an instrument that doesn’t even have dynamic sampling.
I'm pretty sure it does. Yamaha and most DP manufacturers sample real piano notes at varying velocities to capture the difference in character. Most I believe have 3-4 samples per note.

I've sent messages to people on my MySpace page to get their opinions on an A-B comparison I recorded. I started a new thread to hopefully encourage others to step up and post their own A-B comparisons.

In your case, I prefer versions 1 and 3. Version 2, the Bosendorfer, sounds tinny and artificial. The other 2 have their own degrees of artificialness, but not as bad as the Bosendorfer. I'd give a slight edge to the Steinway sample.

But you should really experiment. It sounded like you were playing each piano completely dry and stock. They'd all sound better with a little more space (reverb). I also think that while mellow acoustic pianos can sound beautiful, "mellow" digital pianos and software pianos just sound dull.
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#696068 - 11/02/08 05:39 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Richard Stark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 278
Loc: Hälsingland, Sweden
 Quote:
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[QUOTE]...I'm pretty sure it does... [/b]
It does in fact not. The CLP-230 uses filters that changes the timbre of the sample slightly depending on the velocity. The CLP-240 uses dynamic sampling.

Peace.

/Richard

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#696069 - 11/02/08 05:46 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Richard Stark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 278
Loc: Hälsingland, Sweden
 Quote:
Originally posted by Orez Eno:
[QUOTE] I select Piano Voice #2, Brilliance = Mellow, Reverb = Room, and Effect = None.
... [/b]
I seldom use piano2 because I use to like piano1 better. I will try your settings though. \:\)
I have a friend who is a very good pianist and he also select piano2 whenever he plays my CLP-230.


Peace.

/Richard

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#696070 - 11/02/08 06:00 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
dettch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 55
Loc: Idaho
I listened to each of the three and made my judgment without looking at the other posts.I have no idea which is the 230 but my impressions were quite strong in terms of which I LIKED best(#1 being the one I liked best):

1. Recording #3 which at first I thought was a bit too "covered" but I lost that impression quickly.

2. Recording #2 which was quite good.

3. I thought recording #1 was thin with sound being somewhat "broken up"....clearly the poorest sound of the three.

Bob

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#696071 - 11/02/08 06:28 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Orez Eno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 179
Loc: New England
jscomposer:[/b]
I wish my CLP-230 did have dynamic sampling, but it does not. Here is a link:

CLP-230

The CLP-240 has 3 level dynamic sampling. Here is a link:

CLP-240

Just check the “Tone Generation” section under “Voices”. On the 230 there is no mention of dynamic sampling. On the 240 there is.

But I have tried Akoustik Piano software, which has 16 levels of dynamic sampling, and I have noticed no improvement in the dynamic expressiveness of my playing when comparing that to my CLP-230. So, I now realize that the feature is mostly exaggerated. Now don’t get me wrong. I’d be happy to have the feature. I suspect that as my playing ability improves and I am able to consistently play more expressive pieces, I will notice a difference. But at my current level, with the piece I am submitting to Recital #12, I notice no difference. So, I don’t feel any depravation for not having dynamic sampling at this time.

 Quote:
jscomposer wrote:[/b]
In your case, I prefer versions 1 and 3. Version 2, the Bosendorfer, sounds tinny and artificial.
I have the same preference as you, but I do not think it is due to any artificialness in the sound of the Bosendorfer. I think that is just the way it is. I have come to this conclusion in the last six months, when after being generally disappointed with Akoustik Piano software, I have visited many acoustic piano stores and played many models. Because I am used to the sound of my CLP-230, my first reaction to many acoustic models is that they sound artificial. But of course, that’s silly. They are real pianos and that is just the way they sound. I also practice 9 hours a week on a Baldwin concert grand piano and it has some tonal properties that are recognizably different from my CLP-230. Yet, some acoustic models that I play do sound very close if not indistinguishable from my CLP-230.

I think we all need to be careful when comparing piano sounds when we use the word artificial. After all, these are recorded sounds. In today’s systems, the sound reproduction quality is generally so good that when you hear something that you think is artificial, chances are you are hearing an instrument whose tonal quality you simply do not prefer. Yes, I know the sampling rate affects these recordings. But my recordings demonstrate that the sampling rates on typical instruments are so high to begin with that no detectible artificialness is introduced.

I have experimented quite a bit with my instrument and I do like the settings that I have selected for Recording #3. I’m not surprised to hear you say it could use a little more reverb. As I said in the last post, I actually reduced the amount of reverb effect Yamaha was applying by changing the reverb depth function. I thought Yamaha’s generic amount was a little too much. To your ear it doesn’t have enough. You even think there is none. But I assure you, there is some reverb. It’s just very slight. And, that’s the way I happen to like it.

One of the things I like about the CLP-230 is that by using its “Function” feature, you can change many of the characteristics, like reverb depth, and the instrument remembers it. So, I don’t have to readjust such things every time I turn on my instrument. In contrast, on my YPG-625 I cannot to this. On that instrument I have to save my favorite instrument characteristics as a style, and then load that style every time I use the instrument. It doesn’t come up automatically with my favorite style. But I only use that instrument for playing automatic accompaniment with a variety of instruments, not for serious piano practice. So I haven’t bothered to set up a particular style for its grand piano voice. Hence, when I first turn the instrument on, I immediately notice Yamaha’s use of a little excessive reverb on the grand piano voice. I suspect that most people prefer that, and that is why Yamaha does these things. But I prefer a little less.
_________________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

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#696072 - 11/02/08 06:42 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Orez Eno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 179
Loc: New England
 Quote:
Miracle wrote:[/b]
The CLP-230 uses filters that changes the timbre of the sample slightly depending on the velocity.
Ah-hah! I didn't know that. Perhaps that is why my CLP-230 sounds as good as it does, and why I notice little difference when I switch to Akoustik Piano, which does have dynamic sampling. So, you could say that I have been enjoying a form of dynamic sampling (of sorts) all along. So I should be more careful when I say that dynamic sampling is an exaggerated feature.
_________________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

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#696073 - 11/02/08 09:32 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
Originally posted by Orez Eno: Eternal:[/b]
Good news. I have the MIDI file. Here it is.

MIDI file for Orez Eno playing Clementi

I recorded a new performance on my YPG-625, which unlike my CLP-230, does support exporting saved performances in MIDI format.
It took me a while, but I finally rendered your MIDI using my Ivory setup.

I selected Bosendorfer as the piano:
http://www.box.net/shared/i9hmj7oojp

Certainly no marked improvement over your files.

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#696074 - 11/03/08 03:51 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Orez Eno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 179
Loc: New England
Eternal:[/b]
Thank you very much for supplying my performance of Clementi Sonatina 1.1 Opus 36 sequenced on your ivory system.

The most notable difference for me is how the dynamic level versus key velocity is different. On your Ivory version the dynamics are more exaggerated, demonstrating my unequal keying, which is typical of a beginner. Perhaps I am quick to notice that because I originally played the performance. I suspect that that characteristic is adjustable in Ivory, as it is in Akoustik Piano. Besides, I most probably would have automatically compensated for the difference if I had been actually playing the piece on your system, as one does almost automatically when playing on a different instrument.

The hammer sounds of your Ivory recording are about the same as on my Akoustik Piano recording. The CLP-230 has much less hammer sound, if any.

Timbre wise I think your Ivory is closer to my CLP-230 than to the Akoustik Piano recording. I don’t think that means that the Ivory is better or worse than Akoustik Piano. The truth is, I find the tone of all three systems, Akoustik Piano, Ivory, and CLP-230 to be very good. I have no complaints about any of them.

Your recording demonstrates that the Ivory Bosendorfer sounds quite different than the Akoustik Piano Boserndorfer.

Thank you very much for this recording. It demonstrates to me that for my own playing, there is very little noticeable difference in tonal quality between all systems.
_________________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

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#696075 - 12/25/08 01:31 AM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
drfonta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/08
Posts: 26
Loc: US Forces Korea
Hello,

I'm new here and new to Digital Pianos. I recently bought a YDP-140 and have the output run through a mixer. I decided to try out Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano. I loaded it up and played a few sequences. I actually like the sound of my Yamaha better than any of the samples I could find from the software. Much cleaner and brighter IMHO, especially in the middle keys area. Now I'm not an experienced pianist at all and have strictly played synths and such to fill out my recording projects over the years, so I may be way off base, but I wanted to run this by some of you experienced folks. (I'm 42 and decided to learn how to play, with both hands this time :-). I saw Billy Joel last month and I'm hooked, my kids etc blah blah blah...) Anyway, any comments would be greatly appreciated! Also, Merry Christmas!

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#696076 - 12/25/08 07:47 AM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by drfonta:
Hello,

I'm new here and new to Digital Pianos. I recently bought a YDP-140 and have the output run through a mixer. I decided to try out Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano. I loaded it up and played a few sequences. I actually like the sound of my Yamaha better than any of the samples I could find from the software. Much cleaner and brighter IMHO, especially in the middle keys area. Now I'm not an experienced pianist at all and have strictly played synths and such to fill out my recording projects over the years, so I may be way off base, but I wanted to run this by some of you experienced folks. (I'm 42 and decided to learn how to play, with both hands this time :-). I saw Billy Joel last month and I'm hooked, my kids etc blah blah blah...) Anyway, any comments would be greatly appreciated! Also, Merry Christmas! [/b]
I came to the same conclusion about Pianoteq versus my Yamaha. In fact, non-pianists who heard a recording I did to compare the two came to the same conclusion as well. Unfortunately, the newer Yamaha's I've tried don't sound anywhere near as good as the older Yamaha's. It's as though everyone has been moving towards a weak, bland sound, with restricted dynamic and tonal range. I think as more and more people are starting off on digitals and have no real experience with acoustics, the industry is taking liberties in redefining authenticity, with the goal of allowing weekend warriors to sound good... at the expense of accomplished pianists.

Merry Christmas
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#696077 - 12/25/08 09:29 AM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
drfonta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/08
Posts: 26
Loc: US Forces Korea
jscomposer, thanks for your reply. I love the prelude in D minor! I already know this will become an addiction for me!

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#696078 - 12/29/08 07:54 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
TIMP Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Illinois
What about the idea of using a dedicated hardware such as Muse Research's Receptor that runs VST instruments software rather than using a computer. I haven't tried it but it looks like a reliable and low latency solution.

Has anyone used it here? It would seem to be the best of dedicated hardware along with large sample ROM capacity.

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#696079 - 12/29/08 08:11 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
TIMP Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Illinois
I have a Yamaha Motif XS8 keyboard and I don't really like the Concert Grand Piano sound at all. It has harsh bell-like harmonic sounds at C4 to C5 range. It actually makes my headphones sound like they're ringing. And, the lower notes sound realistic, but they can have a terrible sound when playing notes an octave apart.

I had been using only an old Roland M-GS64 Sound Expansion module from the 1990's. It's grand piano voice (number 1) is smooth and balanced with no harsh harmonics. It has none of the ringing sounds using my same headphones.

I think this module used the samples from the SR-JV series piano expansion cards. I imagine you'd get a similar sound from an expanded Roland XV series tone module. I've heard that the XV-5080 has the best sound of them all.

I've also read that 1990's Roland pianos are less bright and more like a Steinway sound than Yamaha sampled pianos. My limited experience with Roland and Yamaha gear seems to confirm this.

The Motif Yamaha is very harsh to my ears. Sometimes I think it's too ralistic in the sense that it carries the annoying harmonics that you don't want to hear, such as when I sound tweo simultaneous notes like A1 and A2. There is a subtle buzzing sound. My Roland seems to give the realism, but with the annoying harmonics stripped away. In that sense it's less realistic, but in a needed way. Bad harmonics seem more forgiven in a live piano, yet one is less likely to forgive odd harmonic sounds in a MIDI piano.

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#696080 - 12/29/08 08:23 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by TIMP:
What about the idea of using a dedicated hardware such as Muse Research's Receptor that runs VST instruments software rather than using a computer. I haven't tried it but it looks like a reliable and low latency solution.

Has anyone used it here? It would seem to be the best of dedicated hardware along with large sample ROM capacity. [/b]
The Receptor _is_ a computer. It's simply a PC that has drivers optimized for low latency. Probably running some flavor of Linux? Most likely not anything different than anyone can put together themselves if they had the time and the desire. The advantage is they've done all the grunt work for you, you just plug it up and make music vs spending hours tinkering with a PC (in theory anyway).

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#696081 - 12/29/08 10:18 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
This is a very interesting thread - thanks to Orez Eno for starting it.

I haven't had time to read all the posts thoroughly - which I will do in time.

Like Orez I'm retired, but unlike him, I started lessons in 1946, and have played at the piano continuously since then. I started with my mother's old upright (she was a piano teacher), then purchased my own upright in 1972, followed by a Yamaha G2E in 1977. While still owning the Yamaha, I acquired a Technics digital which was replaced by a Roland KR377, followed by a Roland KR-7. I sold the Yamaha a few years ago due to space and noise issues.

I've played every digital piano I could get my hands on, and always use the same headphones (which eliminates one major variation in sound perception). Some digitals are great, some are terrible; this based not only on the direct sound of playing one note (which is useful), but also on the response of the instrument in the reality of playing something useful.

After a few years on the latest Roland, it finally dawned on me that something was missing - good quality sound. Interestingly, what sounds "good" can be subjective and somewhat influenced by one's experience; if one has never played a good grand piano, one will never realize that part of "reality" is hammer noise which is most noticeable in the upper registers. Some digitals may have this, some may not.

What I think truly separates the men from the boys (to use a previous statement) is sympathetic resonance. SR

Sympathetic resonance (for those that aren't familiar with the term) is the vibration of strings that haven't been struck. On an acoustic piano (with the dampers up), non-struck strings vibrate "in sympathy" with struck strings because they are physically connected through the bridge.

For a sampled sound (digital or sample software), sympathetic resonance is extremely difficult to achieve because it has to be generated electronically, and it is only realistic if the non-struck strings are vibrating at the appropriate frequencies. This is extremely complex.

A test to see if your piano is achieving SR is to hold down a note silently, and separately strike the notes a fifth and an octave below. The silent note should sound the fundamentals or partials of the struck notes. Very few digital pianos do this realistically - in fact I haven't played one that does.

I've listened to the demos of many software sample libraries, and SR doesn't be too realistic to me. (I keep SR in mind by going to the shop of a piano restorer friend and playing a selection of six to ten grands - a good exercise).

I'm not going to expound on what is "best" because there is no one correct answer to a subjective topic.

What I have learned is that pianists soon adapt to any piano, and with time, whatever the piano is they have, it becomes "normal". This was best demonstrated to me by a piano salesmen when he said, "play it all you want - the more you play it, the more it becomes your piano". He was right - I bought it.

What I will do is suggest that anyone looking at a purchase, refer to the following site:

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/

There are dozens of digital piano samples and some mp3 files generated by samples. All of them utilize the same midi file, so the playing field is level.

I have downloaded a number of mp3 files to do a comparative assessment.

If one has a wave editor (Audacity will work and it's free - I use Goldwave), I'd suggest loading up a few different mp3's and listening.

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#696082 - 01/06/09 12:20 AM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Horwinkle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 1011
 Quote:
Originally posted by Orez Eno:
Comparison of Akoutik Piano Software Piano to Clavinova CLP-230[/b]
The following recordings are the results of sequencing the MIDI file that I posted earlier in the thread on my Clavinova CLP-230, as well as on my Akoustik Piano virtual (software) piano system.[/b]
I've only just read your earlier post from 9 weeks ago. (Yes, I'm slow. But I've only just begun to be interested in the software piano, and I'm looking at Pianoteq and True Pianos.)

Anyway, I like the sound of your CLP-230 way better than the Akoustik. If makes me wonder if I should even bother going the software route. I have a CLP-240. So, your demo suggests that my
DP will sound better than the Akoustik software.

Still, I'm willing to give Pianoteq and True Pianos a go. I just can't seem to solve the latency issue. (I play, but I don't record, so latency is a problem.)

Please reply if you know of any solutions.

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#696083 - 01/06/09 03:37 AM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Hmmmm, latency. I learned tonight that latency may be a red herring. I'll explain.

I've been fighting "clicks" when playing live or playing a midi file in real time while using Pianoteq.

I was under impression that the latency should be 5 ms or less, or a pianist would detect the lag time between hitting the key and hearing the note (latency).

I tried many suggestions provided by others on an audio forum to no avail until "Mac" suggested trying a higher latency - in the order of 20 ms or so.

I though he was nuts, but I had nothing to lose, so I set the ASIO latency to 20 ms, fully believing it would throw me off. I started playing in 1946, and have been at it continuously since then, so if the latency was bad, it would bother me - I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks.

I could not detect a difference even in fast note passages - but the "clicks" disappeared. I had a latency problem, but because it was set too small. ;\)

So much for latency over 10 ms as a problem. It can be in audio applications while multi-tracking, but as Mac explained it "much is made of latency by people who learned the term because of the computer".

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#1291141 - 10/21/09 09:53 AM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound [Re: ere]
Auggiedoggy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Good day,

Which sound cards would you recommend? I'm looking at coming up with a good computer configuration to MIDI with my Yamaha P-60. Besides the sound card are there other considerations for a good configuration? I'm newbie to this type of thing so use simple words! smile

Thanks.

p.s. Is Pianoteq still your s/w of choice?

Rob
_________________________
Yamaha CP-300, P-85, NP-30

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#1291474 - 10/21/09 07:28 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound [Re: Orez Eno]
sorka Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Merced, CA
Originally Posted By: Orez Eno


The computer is a DELL XPS with 3GHz dual core processor that cost me $1900. The external audio interface unit is a $130 EMU 0202 (to record the CLP-230).


But this is simply more computer than you need. I run Pianoteq on a $300 notebook and the 1.6 GHz processor is more than fast enough to keep even with a polyphonic count. $300 notebook + $300 computer gets you much better sounding piano than all but the highest end digitals costing $10K+.

The way to justify it is if you're willing to go through a PC get get great sound, then the keyboard you buy only has to be judged on weight, feel, hammer action, etc.

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#1291479 - 10/21/09 07:31 PM Re: Piano Soft vs DP Internal sound [Re: sorka]
sorka Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Merced, CA
To solve the latency issue, most PCs will need to have asio4all installed. See http://www.asio4all.com/ for details.

When I first installed Pianoteq, this was the issue. After installing asio4all, the latency was gone to the extent that I could turn the volume up on the onboard processor and there was no difference in time between the onboard speakers and the bookshelf speakers coming out of the notebook.

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