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#702514 - 11/20/07 04:02 PM kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
billyg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 8
Loc: norwalk, Connecticut
Can you help me decide. None of the dealers in my area stock these so it is difficult to try. I am new to piano and want to go digital and these 2 pianos seem to get the most hype. Has anyone really tried both? People seem not to like the sound of the kawai but love the the "action or feel". It seems the yamaha has a better sound but not a better or accurate feel. IS the kawai sound bad? Any help would be much appreciated

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#702515 - 11/20/07 04:25 PM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4673
Loc: San Francisco

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#702516 - 03/26/08 09:28 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
latchyboy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Birmingham
Hello I have have played both but can not make my mind up the Yamaha seems to have a brighter sound and the Kawai seems to be more mellow, I might be going for the Kawai because i think Classical music might sound better, but its down to personel taste tbh,

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#702517 - 03/26/08 09:32 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: Surrey, England
The point of playing piano is to create a musical sound. Therefore sound must take priority. Essential for you to try examples of the brands before buying.

Both pianos have a fair degree of adjustment enabling one to make the sound brighter or more mellow depending on personal preference.

The internet cannot tell you which sound is "better". That is a very personal decision and everyone else's opinion is therefore largely irrelevant in that respect (as both pianos have plenty of supporters so neither is a "dog").
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280, Boston GP178


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#702518 - 03/26/08 04:46 PM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
Happy Birthday polliccio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Milan, Italy
IMHO both are good digital pianos even if they use different approaches to generate sounds (Yamaha=sampling, Kawai=digital imaging) influencing the final results.

On both you may alter parameteres and change some aspects of the sound but you cannot hide the timbre originated by the sound generation technologies.

At the first time i was not impressed by the ca91's sound (I had a Yamaha P140) , but after few hours i changed opinion.

A the end I opted for the ca91 for the touch, dynamic and secondarily for the soundboard (i can use itonly ferw times/month).

If you want to spend less you may go for CLP270 (since the CLP280 keys are not really wooden) and kawai CA 71 (no soundboard, less sounds but still same keyboard).

Stefano

Regards
Stefano
_________________________
Kawai CA91

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#702519 - 03/27/08 02:07 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
eJohn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 129
Loc: San Francisco, CA
I have spent time playing both Yamaha and Kawai, and think Yamaha is by far the better of the two in terms of action, and probably also sound.

But, by the same criteria, I think both makes feel quite artificial in comparison to the top-end models from Roland, which, among the DPs I've tried, are the best. If you are interested I can list the details I've found in comparing all 3 makes. However, there are many threads in this forum on this topic.

I would not give much credence to the amount of "hype" for ANY piano presented in this forum or the number of times a particular model is cited. You never know the background of the person talking, or which other digitals he/she has actually been able to try. Given the amount of money DPs cost and the number of years you are likely to keep yours, you owe it to yourself to try all of them - if at all possible - before you buy.

(For the record, I am just talking about digitals here. I happen to really like Kawai acoustic grand pianos' action and tone).

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#702520 - 03/27/08 03:08 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3574
Loc: Amsterdam
 Quote:
Originally posted by polliccio:
IMHO both are good digital pianos even if they use different approaches to generate sounds (Yamaha=sampling, Kawai=digital imaging) influencing the final results.
[/b]
Can anyone explain exactly wha this "digital imaging" is and how it can be contrasted to the "sampling" approach taken by Yamaha?

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#702521 - 03/28/08 03:33 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
Happy Birthday polliccio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Milan, Italy
First of all I typed a wrong world (sorry!) kawai=harmonic imaging (of course digitally).


Sampling is made by recording each note at different volumes (velocity) and w/wo pedal. I think best pianos have 4 sampling for each key and that volume levels between samples is interpolated.
Somebody says that the step between each sample is audible.

Sometimes not all keys are sampled and notes beteween each key are interpolated. With lower quality keyboard you have less sampling for each key and more interpolated keys (less keys sampled).

Harmonic imaging is poorly described in the kawai site, I think they sample each keys obtainig a sort of map used to generate dinamically the note.
May be jmbattle can help us to obtain more details....

IMO the CLP280 (sampled) gives you a very clear sound; the the CA91 seems to be a little bit more rich. I found CLP sound too much pure, but as you know is a matter of personal taste....

Stefano
_________________________
Kawai CA91

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#702522 - 03/28/08 05:12 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
Kawai James Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 5091
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Stefano's description is reasonably accurate, in that he mentions the 'mapping' of each waveform.

At the risk of appearing to actively promote KAWAI, the follow is a slightly more detailed explanation of the Harmonic Imaging technology, taken from some official documentation.

 Quote:

Introduction[/b]
A fine concert grand piano is capable of producing an incredible range of dynamic expression – from very delicate pianissimos to bold and brilliant fortissimos. In between, there is a virtually infinite amount of subtle shadings in tone.

At each dynamic level, the harmonic structure of the piano’s sound changes dramatically. The timbre (tone) of a note played softly is very mellow because the harmonic structure is less complex. As a note is struck harder and harder, the harmonic structure becomes more complex – so the sound becomes more complex.

In order to produce a more accurate digital recreation of the entire dynamic range of a piano, Kawai departed from the standard PCM multi-sample playback methods and created a radically different method.

What is Harmonic Imaging?[/b]
Harmonic Imaging is a proprietary method of sound reproduction developed by Kawai. Simply put, it gives our digital pianos the ability to re-create the entire dynamic range of one of the world's finest concert grand pianos.

Harmonic Imaging uses its special capabilities to alter sound to recreate the harmonic structure of the EX Concert Piano. This capability enables all of our digital pianos to re-create the sound of the EX piano with a range of expression and smoothness that other digital pianos simply cannot match.

How others do it...[/b]
When a piano sound is sampled, only a minute portion of its total dynamic range is captured. Samples are only small examples of a sound, not the entire picture. Even when a piano sound is “multi-sampled”, only a few portions of the multitude of tones are recorded.

Think of a sample as an audio “snapshot”. If you take two snapshots of your friend – one smiling and the other one frowning – you have two samples of how your friend looks. But what about the huge range of expressions in between? You are missing hundreds of subtle expressions that make up your friend’s character.

Ordinary technologies relying only on sample playback for timbre change can get the “smile and frown” of a piano, but most of the dynamic range will be missing. Therein lies the limitation of typical PCM multi-sample playback.

Because Harmonic Imaging relies on its unique capabilities to create dynamic changes, it can produce a smoother transition of tone colour from the softest playable note to the loudest note. Each key strike produces a totally new tone colour true to the original EX Concert Piano.

How does Harmonic Imaging work?[/b]
Using the anechoic chamber at our grand piano research facility, a team of sound specialists created a three dimensional map of the harmonic structure of the EX piano. The harmonic structure of each of the 88 keys was mapped from the softest note playable to the loudest.

Armed with this data, Kawai engineers created a map of the EX’s harmonic structure, plotting the changes throughout the entire dynamic range. When you play a note on a Kawai digital piano, the note is referenced to the map of the harmonic structure of the same note, at the same volume level on the EX piano. Harmonic Imaging then re-creates that same timbre (tone) on the Kawai digital piano.

The result is an amazingly accurate range of tone and expression, with perfectly smooth transitions from the softest note to the loudest. Illustrated here by the perfect picture (pic 1), whilst PCM Sampling can only offer part of the picture, missing the finer details (pic 2). For a visual comparison imagine the difference between a low quality photograph to that of a high definition photograph.



Well, once again, my apologies if this is considered as 'spamming' the forum, however I hope it proves informative for those interested in the technology.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#702523 - 03/28/08 05:16 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
cruiser Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 1145
Loc: Cornwall, England
Thanks for the interesting clarification, James \:\)

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#702524 - 03/28/08 07:08 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
SSB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Cumbria, UK
I've no problems with Kawai's approach at all, but you do have to laugh at the picture comparison - they haven't sampled all 88 keys in either picture. ;\) \:D
_________________________
User ratings are the work of the devil

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#702525 - 03/28/08 09:00 AM Re: kawai ca-91 vs. yamaha clp-280
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3574
Loc: Amsterdam
Thanks for this description, James.

What I find interesting from a perception point of view is that for me, playing the Kawai instrument gives more of an audio feedback that I am listening to a (lower fidelity) recording, while playing the Yamaha instrument gives me more of a realistic audio impression.

I wonder if the (by definition, artificially computed) result of the "harmonic imaging" algorithm is in fact at the end of the day less realistic sounding than the more static, but real-world, recorded samples?

By comparison, playing a video game with a dynamically generated, computer animation background might give a smooth transition from frame to frame, but be less convincing visually than a high-res digital photograph of an actual real-world scene.

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