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#702976 - 10/27/08 11:15 PM Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

Now, you might ask, "What's the point? Just use the sostenuto pedal!" Well, mine doesn't have one, and I don't feel like spending money on a keyboard that has all sorts of bells and whistles I don't need, and that still fails on this feature. Plus, this technique is more flexible than using the sostenuto pedal. (Though I do wish my P80 had a sostenuto function, because I could use that as well! \:\( )

Try it on yours and let me know what happens! ;\)
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#702977 - 10/28/08 02:24 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
AnthonyB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 659
Loc: Center City, MN
Yeah, that is pretty interesting. The note does not sustain on my Roland fp-7 either. But, I do have a sostenuto pedal jack if required.


My FP-7 is simply remembering the last bit of "volume" information for the key I pressed though. When I press loud, then soft then release the sustain the loud note loses sustain while the newer "lower" volume continues on sustaining. The piano basically has no concept of dampers on a particular key.

I'll post an example of how I think my Roland FP-7 is generating the sound internally:


sustain=true
C1.pressed = true
C1.velocity = 127 #first hit
C1.pressed = false #It could be from here that the sustaining is passed off to another part of the DP's programming.
C1.pressed = true
C1.velocity = 1 #second hit
sustain=false

The C1 note now sustains using the last known velocity, which obviously is quite silent. \:\)

From what my piano does this is pretty much how I imagine that it is "thinking".

For all I now this may be due to processing limitations in the piano or maybe even due to the way the pianos try to handle limited polyphony available. I really have no idea how the digital pianos are programmed something like the above scenario fits results that I get from my piano.
_________________________
Roland FP-7 / Pianoteq 4.5.1


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#702978 - 10/28/08 02:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
I noticed that too on my Kawai CA51.

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#702979 - 10/30/08 12:30 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
curious14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 30
Loc: US
Score one for my GEM RP800 - the note sustains after the pedal is released.

But given that this technique requires skill and timing, both of which I lack, I'll just use the sostenuto pedal.

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#702980 - 10/30/08 12:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened.
jscomposer, i am happy to announce that my YAMAHA CLP-240 does it right:
The notes still sustain in this test!

So i suppose the whole CLP-2xx and CLP-3xx series have it right to.

I am curious about the ROLAND HP-20x series.

Can somebody do a test?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

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#702981 - 10/30/08 03:18 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Berlin
my HP-203 failed the test.

So did Galaxy II Steinway so far, though I haven't fiddled with all options yet.
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#702982 - 10/30/08 03:23 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right. But a number of Yamahas get it. A few Casios get it too. LOL It's kinda strange which Yamahas get it and which ones don't. Like the P80, P120, P140 get it, but the P250 didn't get it (at least the ones I've tried).

I'm a little surprised the GEM RP800 got it! I tried one of their Promegas and it failed this test. I also tried one of their cabinet pianos, it was either an RP700 or RP800, I wish I could remember which. But it didn't get this right. So that's interesting that yours does. I'll have to find a dealer and test them out again. I really like their sounds.

Anyone here have a GEM pRP700 or pRP800 they could try this on? Those are the models I'm most interested in, and I hear that they have a different action than their cabinet counterparts. So there may be hope!

Although, I wonder if it has anything to do with settings. Hey curious14, what are the settings on your RP800?
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#702983 - 10/30/08 06:24 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
my yamaha CP300 failed the test haha. I guess that part isn't modified since the CP250.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

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#702984 - 10/31/08 01:13 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I enjoyed your writing and playing on both pieces Joshua.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#702985 - 10/31/08 06:10 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jrcallan Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 367
Loc: Pennsylvania
Casio AP-45 passed.

Does this test apply to models like this that do have sostenuto?

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#702986 - 10/31/08 08:25 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Eronaile Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Norway
My CLP330 failed. Which seems kinda odd if the 240 got it right. Not that it matters much to me though, will never have any use for it \:\)

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#702987 - 10/31/08 09:56 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
My Yamaha s90es failed the test with the default set-up.

I am wonder if some deep editing will correct this.
When I have time I will ask Yamaha tech support.

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#702988 - 10/31/08 11:39 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Ferris:
I enjoyed your writing and playing on both pieces Joshua. [/b]
Thanks!
 Quote:
Originally posted by jrcallan:
Does this test apply to models like this that do have sostenuto?[/b]
Sure. A DP that has a sostenuto pedal AND can get this mechanism right is ideal!
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#702989 - 10/31/08 12:15 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
My CLP330 failed. Which seems kinda odd if the 240 got it right. Not that it matters much to me though, will never have any use for it
Very strange indeed!

I did the test again several times with my CLP-240 and it's perfect: the notes of the chord sustain as long as they should do if the sustain pedal was pressed.

And if i slowly press 1 note of the chord again (also without making a new sound of course) that note only sustains like it should do with the sustain pedal.

It works also perfectly with the middle pedal or "sostenuto" pedal.

Why should Yamaha has changed that? Or maybe something has changed in the CLP-3xx software?

Any one with a CLP-340/370/380 and also a 270/280 ?
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

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#702990 - 10/31/08 12:45 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
I was told that soft-piano pianoteq passed it...
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My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

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#702991 - 10/31/08 12:45 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
My CLP-270 failed the test! I will go to the store and try the 240 if they still have one.

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#702992 - 10/31/08 01:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
I was told that soft-piano pianoteq passed it... [/b]
;) :p

Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. :rolleyes: )

My Yamaha P80 doesn't have sympathetic resonance and it passes this test, so that's a check. Can you guys verify this on yours? And what about the other makes we've covered, like Casio, Kawai, etc.?

(To test sympathetic resonance, press down a chord slowly enough not to produce any sound. While still holding it, play any other note staccato. The notes you're holding down will generate a faint sound if your DP has sympathetic resonance. If all you hear is the staccato note, then your DP doesn't have sympathetic resonance.)
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#702993 - 10/31/08 02:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Gizzmo_rudy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Netherlands
Well, my clp-340... passed the test \:\)

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#702994 - 10/31/08 02:14 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
I guess that makes sense since I just tested my CP300 again and it has sympathetic resonance and it doesn't have that sostenuto thing right.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

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#702995 - 10/31/08 03:44 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
AnthonyB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 659
Loc: Center City, MN
Yeah, the FP-7 also does sympathetic resonance as well as fails the test.
_________________________
Roland FP-7 / Pianoteq 4.5.1


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#702996 - 10/31/08 06:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think.
Sympathetic Resonance is another term for String Resonance.

 Quote:
To test sympathetic resonance, press down a chord slowly enough not to produce any sound. While still holding it, play any other note staccato. The notes you're holding down will generate a faint sound if your DP has sympathetic resonance. If all you hear is the staccato note, then your DP doesn't have sympathetic resonance
You can listen to this: HERE.

So in the CLP-2xx series only the 270 and 280 have this feature and in the new CLP-3xx series only the 380.
The CP-300 has it too.

For the Roland HP-2xx: 203, 204 and 207 have String Resonance. So has the FP-7.

For Kawai CA series: CA-51, 71, 91 all have String Resonance.

I read here that the Kawai CA-51, Roland HP-203, Yamaha CLP-280 all failed the test, which follows the quote of the Yamaha technicians.

But in this case Eronaile's CLP-330 should have passed since it has no String resonance?

Beside this, it's very strange that all the high end digitals with String resonance fail this "reality test"!
I mean, just like Jscomposer suggests, i think it can't be that difficult to make the software let just cut the String Resonance samples/sounds so that the note you pressed again still sustains, but minus the String Resonance samples/sounds of the other notes (those you do not press anymore) because they are now dampened.

The extra Stereo Sustain Samples (a feature of the Yamaha CLP-340,370,380 and 240,270,280 when you press the Sustain pedal, also called Damper pedal) are nicely cut off when you release the right pedal again, so it must be possible to let the software cut off the extra String Resonance samples at the moment they are no longer needed.

( 'Stereo Sustain Samples' is a Yamaha term, Roland calls it 'Damper Samples' in it's HP-201 to 207 series. )


Any clever technicians there to explain what's the problem to get this right?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

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#702997 - 10/31/08 10:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
 Quote:
Originally posted by jscomposer:
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right. But a number of Yamahas get it. A few Casios get it too. LOL It's kinda strange which Yamahas get it and which ones don't. Like the P80, P120, P140 get it, but the P250 didn't get it (at least the ones I've tried).

I'm a little surprised the GEM RP800 got it! I tried one of their Promegas and it failed this test. I also tried one of their cabinet pianos, it was either an RP700 or RP800, I wish I could remember which. But it didn't get this right. So that's interesting that yours does. I'll have to find a dealer and test them out again. I really like their sounds.

Anyone here have a GEM pRP700 or pRP800 they could try this on? Those are the models I'm most interested in, and I hear that they have a different action than their cabinet counterparts. So there may be hope!

Although, I wonder if it has anything to do with settings. Hey curious14, what are the settings on your RP800? [/b]
Just tested it on my RP700. It did not pass this test, though it does have sympathetic resonance, and a sostenuto.

When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with.

I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though.
_________________________
Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
Ritmuller/Pearl River

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#702998 - 11/01/08 03:09 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
eJohn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 129
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Fascinating thread. I never noticed this flaw on my HP-207, but there's no excuse for Roland not getting it right. We'll see if they do in their next model line..

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#702999 - 11/01/08 06:35 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
deepsky Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Norway
My CLP-380 passed the test.

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#703000 - 11/01/08 07:06 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jrcallan Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 367
Loc: Pennsylvania
Casio AP-45 does not have string resonance, using the test described, but does pass the sostenuto test. Sounds like the theory is a good one.

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#703001 - 11/01/08 11:22 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
I went to the store and checked a few. The CLP 240 works, CLP380 works. Actually I tried 4 or 5 of the Clarinovas and they all worked. I just can't remember the model number for them.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

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#703002 - 11/01/08 08:01 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
f2ot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 1
Loc: France
My "old" CLP-115 passed the sostenuto test...

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#703003 - 11/02/08 03:48 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
I went to the store and checked a few. The CLP 240 works, CLP380 works. Actually I tried 4 or 5 of the Clarinovas and they all worked. I just can't remember the model number for them.
The CLP-380 has String Resonance AND passed the 'sostenuto test' three times in this thread!

It looks like Yamaha found a way to get it right in the CLP-380 to.

So there's no reason why it schouldn't work with the CLP-320, 330, 340 and 370.

Eronaile can you do the test again, because your CLP-330 should have passed following the theory, since it has no String Resonance?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

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#703004 - 11/02/08 07:31 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Eronaile Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Norway
Well, I'm 100 % certain that it doesn't pass, if I had a cam I could record it ;\)

Just to be certain: I press the pedal, strike a key, let the key go, strike it again real slow so the note doesn't sound a second time, then depress the pedal while holding the key. Result, the sound stops when I let go of the pedal, while the key is still pressed.

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#703005 - 11/02/08 05:49 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3220
Loc: Virginia, USA
Just tried it on my ancient Yamaha, the long discontinued P500.

Passed with no problem.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#703006 - 11/02/08 09:21 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
i actually tried the test on my PF500, which does have string resonance, but it's not always working unless i hit the key a little harder (with slight sound) when sustain pedal is still down. actually, the sostenuto pedal on mine works as on a grand anyway.

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#703007 - 11/03/08 12:25 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Hey, all! I mainly play my S&S B, but I have a CLP230 as well, and it passes the sostenuto test. ;\)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#703008 - 11/03/08 01:29 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
So here's a stupid question:

If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue?

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#703009 - 11/03/08 05:08 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
richyfourtytwo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 4
Casio px 120 also fails.

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#703010 - 11/03/08 08:05 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Berlin
theJourney,

at least the combination Roland HP-203 + Galaxy II Steinway does not work.
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#703011 - 11/03/08 10:10 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
So here's a stupid question:

If one were to get a Kawai CA51 that does not do this properly, but hook up the piano to Garritan or Ivory or Pianoteq, etc. would you then have it through the software or is it a signalling & reproduction issue? [/b]
If would be a function of the software.

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#703012 - 11/04/08 12:10 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
My Casio PX 320 failed the test

that's decided it, its got to go \:\)


Lee
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#703013 - 11/06/08 12:05 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by CTPianotech:
When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with.

I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though. [/b]
Just got off the phone with Rich from Shawn's Piano, and the pRP800 failed this test.
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#703014 - 11/15/08 09:31 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
GTBannah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 25
Loc: GuyBarTola
O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation?
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Derrkins

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#703015 - 11/16/08 01:28 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by GTBannah:
O.K., but after all of this, how practical is this in a real solo performance situation? Do we have the time to do the "second depression" thing in a real situation? [/b]
I use it in Rachmaninoff's Prelude in B minor, in Grieg's Concerto in A minor depending on what mood I'm in, and I use it in some of my own music. The main reason I developed it was because my DP doesn't support sostenuto. But you're right, so far I've only used it in slower passages.

Come to think of it though, this technique could be used (and perhaps with greater ease than sostenuto) in a situation where you play a fast run and then want to sustain only certain notes from that run in the next phrase.
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#703016 - 11/16/08 01:33 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
maxipol Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Argentina
 Quote:
Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. [Roll Eyes] )
 Quote:
I own a Yamaha YPD-140 (without string resonance), which is a very new model released in 2008, and unfortunately didn´t pass the test.

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#703017 - 11/18/08 06:08 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Geof175 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Be
Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX.

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#703018 - 11/18/08 09:07 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Geof175:
Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX. [/b]
Yeah, doesn't work on Yamaha's flagship portable CP300 either. But at least it supports a full 3 pedals. The CP33 only has a single aux pedal input. It amazes me how at this late stage of the digital piano game they still cheap out on some of the most basic features.
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#1301559 - 11/08/09 11:34 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: TimR]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
It seems to me like pianoteq doesn't do this right either :(, I use this technique in the Pathetique sonata first mov. after Andras Schiff told about it in his lecture, its a usefull technique.


Edited by Victor25 (11/08/09 11:38 AM)
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Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1301597 - 11/08/09 12:50 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Victor25]
AlphaTerminus Offline
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I just tried this using Pianoteq 3.5 and both my CP-33 and my PF-500 it it did work.
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#1301605 - 11/08/09 01:13 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: AlphaTerminus]
Glenn NK Offline
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Loc: Victoria BC
It is my very strong suspicion that Pianoteq will only produce what the keyboard will transmit in terms of signal.

In other words, if your keyboard doesn't "pass the test" outlined by jscomposer, and thus can't transmit the signal to Pianoteq, then Pianoteq can't produce the effect.

It relies on what is transmitted by the keyboard.

My Roland KR7 (superseded by the KR107), fails the test; but on the other hand it transmits continuous damper control values from zero to 127 - not many keyboards can do this. And I find this feature quite useful, particularly at the end of a song where one would slowly drop the dampers (on an acoustic).

Glenn

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#1301615 - 11/08/09 01:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Nikolas Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jscomposer
On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.
I'm trying to understand where exactly is the sostenuto effect with this. You hold ALL the damper with the pedal, then you sustain the dampers of the notes you hold down, and release the sustain. On a real piano this seems... bizzare since you still have to keep your hand on the notes, in order to sustain them. The idea of the sostenuto is to hold the selected notes, but without having your hands on them... This is NOT the case.

In your example you are just hitting the notes, with pedal, then take the pedal off practially (either if you lift and put the down the hands again).

Don't have my PX110 at home anymore, so can't do any tests, but my hunch is that it has to do with some MIDI signal... :-/ But will have to run some tests in my studio for further research purposes...
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#1301622 - 11/08/09 01:54 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Nikolas]
BazC Offline
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Korg SP200 fails the test.

Edit:It passes when used with Pianoteq though!


Edited by BazC (11/08/09 02:19 PM)
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#1301642 - 11/08/09 02:31 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: BazC]
AlphaTerminus Offline
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Yeah BazC, same with my PF500 and CP33. Pianoteq3.5 just queries whether the keys are pushed down and if they are behaves appropriately. I imagine this would work with any midi controller and Pianoteq 3.5.
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#1301657 - 11/08/09 03:09 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: TimR]
SdJ Offline
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Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Caribbean
Gentlemen,
My venerable 12 years old Oberheim Minigrand piano moduled passed this test easyly. Sad it is no longer produced, if it dies, I will mourn for a year.

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#1301659 - 11/08/09 03:15 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: BazC]
Glenn NK Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: BazC
Korg SP200 fails the test.

Edit:It passes when used with Pianoteq though!


Baz:

I can't test my DP with Pianoteq because my soundcard died yesterday. Will check if and when it's fixed (needs some new capacitors).

Glenn

PS - how are you liking 3.5?

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#1301671 - 11/08/09 03:40 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Glenn NK]
BazC Offline
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Registered: 01/04/08
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Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
PS - how are you liking 3.5?


Loving it! Richer, more defined, fantastic! smile Sorry about the card frown
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#1301916 - 11/09/09 03:33 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: BazC]
Victor25 Offline
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If your midi sends out:

note on note off
velocity
damper + how much (if you have a damper pedal with half-pedaling)

then the software should take care of the rest, right?
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Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1305255 - 11/14/09 03:27 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Victor25]
Huygens Offline
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Horray, my cheap P-85 Yamaha plastic imitation passes the test. smile


Edited by Huygens (11/14/09 03:28 AM)
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#1305256 - 11/14/09 03:45 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Huygens]
keyboardklutz Offline
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P60 passes. Still can't stand the thing though.
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#1305421 - 11/14/09 01:41 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: keyboardklutz]
Maelstrom Offline
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Registered: 03/19/09
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kawai EP3 failed
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#1307378 - 11/17/09 06:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Maelstrom]
PlatonicSolid Offline
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Kurzweil 2600xs failed, but I have a hard time using the word "failed" as I would opt for sympathetic resonance over a rather awkward method of achieving sostenuto for which I have a pedal. Also, I doesn't matter how lightly I press the keys, the notes are always sounded - granted at a greatly reduced volume.
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#1307942 - 11/18/09 05:40 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
PlatonicSolid Offline
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Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.

"Wrong" is subjective. "Different" would be accurate.

Originally Posted By: jscomposer
On a real piano...

"real piano" is subjective. "Acoustic piano" would be accurate.

A digital piano is no less "real" than an acoustic. If you want all the features of an acoustic piano, then buy an acoustic piano. I can list a thousand features and benefits of digital pianos that no acoustic could ever hope to achieve (or should I say they would "fail the test"), but what's the point? They are very different instruments.

If your stated method of achieving the sostenuto effect is that important to you, I dare say you have failed to purchase the right instrument.

People would be much better served by exploiting the attributes of the instruments at hand.

Bottom line, Acoustic or Digital, if it can get you "in-the-zone", then it's a worthy instrument.
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#1309228 - 11/20/09 01:32 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: PlatonicSolid]
UpNorth Offline
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If I understand the test, then my Yamaha P155 passed it nicely.

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#1982630 - 11/04/12 01:50 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
WippenJackSpring Offline
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Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

Now, you might ask, "What's the point? Just use the sostenuto pedal!" Well, mine doesn't have one, and I don't feel like spending money on a keyboard that has all sorts of bells and whistles I don't need, and that still fails on this feature. Plus, this technique is more flexible than using the sostenuto pedal. (Though I do wish my P80 had a sostenuto function, because I could use that as well! frown )

Try it on yours and let me know what happens! wink



Thanks jscomposer, if you are still out there, for bringing up this point.

I realize this is a dated thread, but, IMO, this is still a relevant concern/topic.

My Kawai MP10, with software version "V1.04", is not capable of doing this - and yes, I am disappointed.

On 10/24/12, Kawai James posted a heads-up notice for all Kawai MP10 owners for the minor update v1.05 - and thank you James for doing that!

I have not updated my MP10 yet because I need to get a USB memory device. However, just based on the description of the v1.05 minor update that James gave, it (v1.05) will not remedy this problem.

The reason I am "disappointed", and the reason I call this a "problem", is that this may be what is causing a problem I have notice that occurs occasionally on my Kawai MP10. And that is, occasionally some combination of actuating the sustain pedal and keying, the "sound" disappears completely. Another way of stating it is that there is just no sound - zip. And of course on an acoustic piano, at least from my experiences, this does not happen.

Another thing that I have now noticed about the functionality of the sustatin pedal software/algorithm on my Kawai MP10, is as follows. Without depressing the sustain pedal, when I softly press down and hold a lower key (maybe a bass C) (without activating its sampled sounds), and then "play" another key (maybe a C one octave higher) it activates a sample to simulate a slight resonance for the lower C key, which I am still holding down. Now, the infidelity occurs when I do the same thing, except I first hold the sustain pedal down before I do the above. In this scenario the cross string resonance does not occur. Which again is not how an acoustic piano would work.

Now I do fully realize that the Kawai MP10 is not an acoustic Kawai Grand. Yet they (Kawai) have done such a great job, IMO, of modeling so many aspects (tactile, auditory, timbre, playability) of the acoustic and digitals keyboards it represents (key action, sampling, tactile feel of the keys, damper resonace, let off action, several preset temperments, & stretch tuning - to name only a few). So I'm at a loss to understand why they either overlooked both of these needed "sustain" features, or just chose not to include them.

Now this problem with the sustain algorithm may, or may not be the cause of the problem I have experienced with my MP10 (as described above). However, given the many features that Kawai has sucessfully modeled in the MP10, I would be quite surprised if both of these "sustain algorithm blackholes" could not be remedied with a software patch.

Especially since apparently other DP manufactures can at least sucessfully implement the first one, and have chosen to include this feature in their modeling of acoustics which use the sustain feature.

Sincerely,
WJS


Edited by WippenJackSpring (11/04/12 09:19 PM)

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#1982838 - 11/05/12 01:45 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Bogs Offline
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I confirm the above holds for Kawai CA63 as well. On one hand it's surprising that one mentioned this 'issue' as far back as 2008 and yet the problem still occurs [while some DPs didn't have this problem in the first place], but on the other hand this is what you get if you don't use physical modeling - some acoustic behaviors do not derive automatically and have to be programmed in. This is for me a non-issue, I don't expect sampled DP to be 'perfect'.
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old Gaveau upright & Kawai CA63; previously Korg SP250

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#1982843 - 11/05/12 02:12 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
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Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Bogs
but on the other hand this is what you get if you don't use physical modeling - some acoustic behaviors do not derive automatically and have to be programmed in..


Lol. Classic type of assumption people make who have no experience modeling things on computers. One doesn't just describe the piano to the computer and automatically get all the emergent subtle properties of an acoustic piano. Inasmuch as modeled pianos more accurately mimic this type of behavior, I'm sure it was carefully thought out and purposely added. Modeling is a painstaking procedure that produces gibberish the first zillion times you try it and you have to go back and tweak it ad nauseum, carefully adding any important features until it kind-of sort-of mimics the desired behavior.

The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers who haven't put the work into getting ostensibly unimportant details like this right, not because the pure modeled approach is a panacea for all piano behavior or "automatically" gets piano behavior right.

Pardon the apparent huff. It's a bit of a peeve of mine when people ascribe sci-fi abilities to computers and programs that exist in the real world, so I always speak up when I can.


Edited by gvfarns (11/05/12 02:17 AM)

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#1982882 - 11/05/12 07:14 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Clumsy Offline
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One thing I notice in the acoustic piano: from the note F5 onwards the notes are sustained (non-dampened), which means you don't have to step on the pedal to sustain the notes.

Only a few DP's I tested have this feature, like the Kawai CN24, KCP80, KDP80. None of the Yamahas I tried - YDP 141, 161, 181, P105, CLP440 - have this feature. Neither does the Casio PX-735.

Let's have your input on various other models, too.
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Out-of-tune mid 70's acoustic Bentley upright and Casio Celviano AP-450

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#1982892 - 11/05/12 07:56 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
MacMacMac Offline
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That's odd. I've seen the opposite in digitals: high notes not damped.

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#1982904 - 11/05/12 08:34 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: MacMacMac]
spanishbuddha Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
That's odd. I've seen the opposite in digitals: high notes not damped.

I'm surprised too as I've not yet come across one that doesn't. This includes various Casio's, Yamaha's, Roland's and Kawai's. We get quite a few newbie posts on here complaining about this 'defect'.

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#1982912 - 11/05/12 08:48 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: gvfarns]
Bogs Offline
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Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Lol. Classic type of assumption people make who have no experience modeling things on computers.

Haha! My dissertation is about piano modeling, so yeah... But anyway, what I meant was the fact than once you create the model, the interactions between various elements of the model become more natural. Like you model a vibrating string, then you can easily add 2 or 3 strings per note (and thus, say, simulate the 'soft' pedal). Or if you model the damping system, then it doesn't matter if it's key off or partial pedaling, it's the same system underneath. With the sampled piano, you can't have a pianoteq-like option with "All keys on the piano have 3 strings", or you need special samples for the soft-pedal [or anyway, do a 'cheap' version like take out the high frequency of the samples, etc].
Creating the model, that's a different story and of course you have to think where you want to cut corners and where you want the model to be as close to reality as possible.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers [...]
I'm sorry, but that's just plain rude! If a piano graduate doesn't play Rach3, then that doesn't make him lazy. And I'm sure that in no matter what profession you are, laziness is not tolerated by the management!
I don't know if with sampling you can do all the things you can with modelling, but what I'm sure of is that for these 'extra-special-cases' it takes a lot more effort to do it in the case of sampling (and thus this could be the reason why money is not invested into this, not the 'lazy programmers').
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#1982926 - 11/05/12 09:09 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3293
Originally Posted By: Bogs
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers [...]
...
I don't know if with sampling you can do all the things you can with modelling, but what I'm sure of is that for these 'extra-special-cases' it takes a lot more effort to do it in the case of sampling

It would not be practical to try to do with sampling everything that can be done with modeling. You can model things like hammer wear, damper wear, infinite lid positions, infinite velocities (or at least 127 with standard MIDI), etc. Whether these things are all necessary/desirable, or make up for other areas in which modeling currently may fall short, is a different discussion.

As for the phenomenon being discussed here, regardless of whether the tone generation were based on sampling or modeling, I think it comes down to a programming issue, of how to interpret the interplay between key up, key down, pedal up, and pedal down.

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#1982991 - 11/05/12 11:24 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
gvfarns Offline
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Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Bogs
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers [...]
I'm sorry, but that's just plain rude! If a piano graduate doesn't play Rach3, then that doesn't make him lazy. And I'm sure that in no matter what profession you are, laziness is not tolerated by the management!

I don't know if with sampling you can do all the things you can with modelling, but what I'm sure of is that for these 'extra-special-cases' it takes a lot more effort to do it in the case of sampling (and thus this could be the reason why money is not invested into this, not the 'lazy programmers').


Meh. From the perspective of the consumer, lazy programmers, incompetence at any level, and underfunding (justified or not) are observationally equivalent. I don't really care which is the case (and I doubt that you know). I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt considering the large numbers of years that pass with little progress in DP technology and the fact that some pianos have the desired features while other do not...for years and years. Attributing it to a technical difficulty of sampled technology seems odd, considering the fact that some sampled pianos do behave correctly. This is one of many behaviors that gets discussed here that some or most digitals do not do correctly and doesn't seem to get fixed.

Look, I'm sympathetic with people whose job is hard and/or unappreciated, but my experience with digital piano technology leads me to expect better than what we observe. That's the general sense of this whole thread, by the way (ancient, though it may be).


Edited by gvfarns (11/05/12 11:27 AM)

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#1983041 - 11/05/12 01:39 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
ap55 Offline
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Registered: 10/03/12
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Loc: Germany, Bremen
@bogs, would be really interested in your diss. Could you send me by PM ? What are the models you use for the string, etc ?? I am doing a lot of structural dynamic but in a different business.

ap55

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#1983304 - 11/06/12 04:50 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right.


My V-Piano does this perfectly, though of course it's modeling technology. A sterner test would be to silently hold down different notes (i.e. not the ones you've just struck and then released) while keeping the pedal down, then releasing the pedal to see if the sympathetic vibration from the sounding strings have transmitted to the ones you 'didn't' play, but are now undamped (because you're holding them down). It works on the V-Piano, just as on a real piano, but I suspect you won't get this on sampled DPs.

Incidentally, this latter device of sympathetic string vibration causing an eerily soft sound from undamped strings is exploited by Schumann in Carnaval, Op.9 (the 7th chord at the end of 'Paganini', to lead back into the reprise of Valse allemande).
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#1983472 - 11/06/12 03:30 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Marco M Offline
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My new Roland HP-505 passed the test.
And it has the sympathic (here called "string-") resonance feature.
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before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#1983514 - 11/06/12 05:05 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
LMKawai Offline
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Loc: Madrid, Spain
OMG! Im so disappointed now! My KAWAI CS6 failed the test frown Yamaha P155 passed it though!!!
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#1983548 - 11/06/12 06:56 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.


The CA95 fails the test (above) when using both pedals:

The sustain, or, the middle one.

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#1983551 - 11/06/12 07:14 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.


@jscomposer,

I am now taking this issue directly to Kawai (as you have done) to see as to what they have to say about the sustain pedal resonance issue.

Not likely that much will be done, unless there is a way the pedal and resonance behaviors can be fixed within a software update.

If not fixable, current owners may have no recourse.

Will have to wait until a new model arrives.

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#1983563 - 11/06/12 08:36 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Geof175]
torhu Offline
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Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 183
Originally Posted By: Geof175
Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX.

It actually works on the RD-700NX, although only for the Supernatural AP and EP tones.

It also works when I use it to control Galaxy Vintage D. Cool.

I actually do use this feature, mostly when I forgot that I need the bass note to sustain after I release the pedal laugh
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#1983804 - 11/07/12 03:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
CA51 with Galaxy Vintage D and Vienna Grand (Bösendorfer) have it, but itself not.

For me a typical case for a minor SW-Update (CAx5).

Waiting for a model change would be a non-solution, being the CAx5 a brand-new model (2-3 Ys).

Perhaps something to consider for .v2 model refresh, but before You can get it, it is probably another 6 months when not underway already.

Manufacturers must have it difficult nowadays with all of the pressure from us forum-folks with our public scrutiny...

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#1983818 - 11/07/12 04:06 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Temperament]
ap55 Offline
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Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Wouldn't be the physical modeling really the solution. What can you expect from companies that are not really eager to can get proud enough to put physical modeling on the market, but pay for some acoustic technician to do sampling measurements. Thats the way if you was not willing to pay engineers and programmers to do excellent work. So all the behavior we expect could be modeled and if there is an open interface for programming there will be many open source developer to contribute to the perfect piano. There will be supid business, but no passion in DP development. Good to have Roland v-piano and soon hopefully viscount physis piano

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#1983892 - 11/07/12 07:17 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: ap55]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ap55
Wouldn't be the physical modeling really the solution. What can you expect from companies that are not really eager to can get proud enough to put physical modeling on the market, but pay for some acoustic technician to do sampling measurements. Thats the way if you was not willing to pay engineers and programmers to do excellent work. So all the behavior we expect could be modeled and if there is an open interface for programming there will be many open source developer to contribute to the perfect piano. There will be supid business, but no passion in DP development. Good to have Roland v-piano and soon hopefully viscount physis piano


This post looks like it makes sense when you read it fast, but on careful parsing, I realize I have no idea what you are saying.

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#1983981 - 11/08/12 02:43 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@gvfarns: If there is a physical modeling, the piano will be well defined in a software-code. If this code is open, so an evolution of this code in the backward direction will likely be avoided, because what happens is transparent. The same situation appears if there is competition in a traceable situation (software modeling is usually traceable, if the code is available, or at least for the company who did it). For sampled based piano there is a lot of competition, but no traceability what really happens, because the evolution of sampled based piano is only on adding with some workaround new features.

But may be you are requesting with your question for a conclusion. In this respect you are right concerning my missing question mark for the first sentence: "Wouldn't be the physical modeling really the solution" ??? So my post was more a question, which can be answered. The actually conclusion for me I tried in the last sentence, which should not focus on a special brand, but in fact that I think it is good to have the first physical modeling pianos on the market and the horizon with above respect. If this market will grow hopefully in future we will not need to discuss about some shortcomings of different features for sampled based pianos.

Or you like to see it that way, that my contribution is therewith closed because self-containing. You like you might agree or post a counterrevolutionary opinion. On one point however you are right, it does not contribute to an answer to former question and complaints, but put them in a more global light.

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#1984109 - 11/08/12 10:45 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 573
Loc: Mt View, CA
@ap55 - Are you mesmerized by Physis, or just an astroturfing marketer?

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#1984115 - 11/08/12 11:01 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
@ap55, FYI I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with anything you say, it's just that there were enough typos and grammar errors that I literally could not figure out what you were trying to communicate. I appreciate your clarification.

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#1984155 - 11/08/12 12:47 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@gvfarns, yes sorry for the grammar errors, I am not a native english speaker.
@xorbe: May be I am mesmerized by new technology going in my opinion the right way, not by a special brand. I am not a marketer.

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#1984165 - 11/08/12 01:07 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Is there a release date for Physis or this vapourware? Unreleased products can always appear amazing "on paper".
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1984454 - 11/09/12 02:11 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
ap55 Offline
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Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
http://audioelectric.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p13780_viscount-physis-piano-h2.html.

My verbal information is from the distributor here in Germany and from beginning of October. The availability was said to be from mid of Nov and it is already offered for order, see above link.

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#1984886 - 11/10/12 04:03 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Yesterday jumped in the shop (next door on the way to home) and I tried it out with a number instruments and now I concluded for myself, that this feature has no practical importance for me at all.

If you press some key(s) --> sustain pedal --> pedal up while holding some key(s) down, damper up remains effective, and that is the only thing which I use while playing. The instruments I tested did it well. (As my older Kawai CA51 get it right as well). This behaviour could come next to a real sostenuto-mimic.

Key up, than pressing it very slowly (silently) again while pedal down - this seems now an awkward and useless playing technic to me - not a real sostenuto simulation at all. (As a matter of fact neither one of them because you have to hold the key down, not a pedal!) The only use I can imagine is to show the effect of some vague finger technic, but I am not that sure if that has a practical importance at all.

The whole topic now seems to be about a fault in term of a perfectionist attitude only.

(The next logical step for an ultimate modeling of a concert grand you should have heavy bricks built in the DP cabinet to simulate the same weight as the real thing)

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#1984960 - 11/10/12 09:02 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: ap55]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ap55
http://audioelectric.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p13780_viscount-physis-piano-h2.html.

My verbal information is from the distributor here in Germany and from beginning of October. The availability was said to be from mid of Nov and it is already offered for order, see above link.


Interesting. I expect there will be a Winter NAMM announcement.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1985077 - 11/10/12 03:28 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2221
Loc: Sydney, Australia
That price for the Physis is less than I thought it would be, and I love the demo recordings!
P.S And it sounds MORE metallic than Pianoteq, which is a GOOD thing, IMHO. The metallic quality in the Physis is a GOOD kind of metallic.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (11/10/12 03:31 PM)

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#1985087 - 11/10/12 03:54 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
dje31 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 218
Two versions even! H1 &H2!
_________________________
Yamaha CP33 | Roland XP-30

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#1985097 - 11/10/12 04:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: sullivang]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I would like better a SW-only model instead of a complete dedicated proprietary HW/Sw solution.

I would regard a SW Piano as good halfway between Open Source and a proprietary package as Physis or VPiano.

Reasons: With modeled instruments You have to buy in a fast developing new technology. If a DP is sold only HW-bundled , you have to pay for the whole package roughly 5 to 10 times as much as for a SW. The whole package will be amortised, you cannot upgrade it after 3 years (neither people who take it second hand).

Necessary computing power is nowadays at hand with normal PCs (4-6 core CPUs with 8-12 "virtual" cores), "unlimited" storage (speed and capacity) and excellent semi-pro soundcards with no latency. You can easily update your HW which You do regularly anyway.

You are then flexible, can choose the right keyboard for Your taste, level of sound quality of sound cards, amplifiers, right sound boxes. And You can play with other instruments (not only pianos) as well.

From this standpoint I find it desirable to avoid paying too much for proprietary dedicated modelled HW-SW DPs if there are other altenatives. (By the way, the same applies for sampled DPs as well).

3000 EUR/$ for a DP is only justified for me, if it has an outstanding keyboard (value 1000 EUR/$) a good sound system (1000-1500 EUR/$ value) which can be used with external sound sources as well.

The only modelled SW pianos I know are
  • Pianoteq (plastic sound - NOT QUITE RIGHT, not so weightful as some SW-Pianos, but as a whole very instrument-like)
  • Sound Magic Imperial Grand3d (evaluated it newly - not in a league with Pianoteq)
  • Truepianos (simplest of all of them)
Even VPianos have a somewhat plasticly quality to my taste. Sampled pianos are just a more mature technology today.


Edited by Temperament (11/14/12 05:45 PM)
Edit Reason: At last I bought Pianoteq4: what a big surprise superb playability!

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#1985114 - 11/10/12 05:55 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
FYI, you should check out the DPBSD thread on TruePianos. It's a sampled, looped, stretched piano, not a modelled one. The technology is similar to what's found on onboard piano tone engines. Apparently the idea that it's modelled is a myth.


Edited by gvfarns (11/10/12 06:05 PM)

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#1985242 - 11/11/12 05:33 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: gvfarns]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Yes, the DPBSD Truepianos v1.5.0 test concluded with a poor verdict. Yesterday I tried the current v1.9.5 demo and it was nothing to me to bother with. (In old times for 5 Ys. it was the very first piano sound I played with a MIDI keyboard and this first encounter was a true revelation. Interestingly, the timbre I found even now piano-like over the whole range, but after playing it some seconds you get all the problems which Dewster analysis is showing: stretching is obvious, a very audible phenomenon even during real playing.) Sympathetic resonance was non-existent for me, no much have changed since DPBSD test. (You cannot wait too much from a 100MB sampled instrument, but it passed our topic's test at least!)

I tried the current demo of Sound Magic Imperial Grand3D too. It has many of a piano characteristic implemented, but with many very unnatural rudimentary implementation details (reverbs, pedal behaviour).

Pianoteq stands there with no serious concurrency. Playability is superb, but it's piano sound I would describe as correct, but far from being a beautiful piano sound - not nearly as good as with some good quality sampled pianos, Galaxy e.g. (Even VPiano sound was not convincing.)

There must be a difficult to measure but subjectively very important distinguishing sound quality mark.

I can now better understand the strategy of modeler SWs, why they are packaging their SW-Product into whole phyiscal instruments: with SW alone it is no much room left to earn money. Even Pianoteq can charge only 100-400$ for their SW, setting some upper price limit.

What I could see as desirable, would be updateable modules within the cabinet of DPs. You could change computer parts (CPU, Memory, Motherboard, Sound Card all of them as a unit) AND SW separately, because the other parts (action, amplifier, boxes) are not amortising that fast. You have already standard interfaces to build on (MIDI; audio, sound cards).

I am wondering, how many LINUX-Based solutions are working within the DPs currently on the market.

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#1985330 - 11/11/12 11:36 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Temperament]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Temperament
I am wondering, how many LINUX-Based solutions are working within the DPs currently on the market.


The only software DP I know of that is working with linux is PianoTeq. And it works with no problems.

I actually emailed TruePianos and asked them to get me a linux version back when I was starting out. They have one internally that works fine, but they have never sold it. They were willing to sell it to me, though, so if anyone wants it I bet you could contact them directly and work something out. I didn't end up getting it.

To play Ivory or Galaxy on linux you would need kontakt or one of the other player programs for linux and as far as I know there are no suitable options. If there are, I'd love to know about it.

I'm not sure whether Kontakt, for example would work within wine.


Edited by gvfarns (11/11/12 11:36 AM)

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#1985336 - 11/11/12 11:48 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3293
I think the issue with pianos on Linux is that they often require iLok for copy protection, and that is not supported on Linux (although Muse has a special arrangement which supports iLok on the Linux-based Receptor).

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#1985338 - 11/11/12 11:51 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Another reason to hate and avoid the iLok.

I did a bit of google just now to check it out and it seems that some people have decent success running Kontakt under wine. There are also tools to play or convert .nki files natively in linux but I doubt that all the little scripts that give you stuff like sympathetic resonance and repedalling work. Maybe I shouldn't be a doubting Thomas, though.

My main computers are all linux-based so maybe I'll try a couple of these with Vintage D to test the concept. I would not at all mind ditching windows on my piano computer.


Edited by gvfarns (11/11/12 11:53 AM)

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#1985349 - 11/11/12 12:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: gvfarns]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I didn't mean LINUX-compatibility of SW pianos but the internal architecture of proprietary Digital Pianos - I suspect that these are internally based on a Linux computer in their cabinet!

All kind of much simpler HW (like my tiny Lynksys router) hapen to be Linux computer running some dedicated tasks with the application logic. Some or the better part or just all of the DP manufacturers could have it in this manner...s.Dewster's remarks to Linux Attila


Edited by Temperament (11/15/12 02:07 PM)
Edit Reason: Link

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