Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#702976 - 10/27/08 11:15 PM Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

Now, you might ask, "What's the point? Just use the sostenuto pedal!" Well, mine doesn't have one, and I don't feel like spending money on a keyboard that has all sorts of bells and whistles I don't need, and that still fails on this feature. Plus, this technique is more flexible than using the sostenuto pedal. (Though I do wish my P80 had a sostenuto function, because I could use that as well! \:\( )

Try it on yours and let me know what happens! ;\)
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / PR /Roland
Yamaha Keyboards for Performance and Composition

Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano

Click Here


#702977 - 10/28/08 02:24 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
AnthonyB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 659
Loc: Center City, MN
Yeah, that is pretty interesting. The note does not sustain on my Roland fp-7 either. But, I do have a sostenuto pedal jack if required.


My FP-7 is simply remembering the last bit of "volume" information for the key I pressed though. When I press loud, then soft then release the sustain the loud note loses sustain while the newer "lower" volume continues on sustaining. The piano basically has no concept of dampers on a particular key.

I'll post an example of how I think my Roland FP-7 is generating the sound internally:


sustain=true
C1.pressed = true
C1.velocity = 127 #first hit
C1.pressed = false #It could be from here that the sustaining is passed off to another part of the DP's programming.
C1.pressed = true
C1.velocity = 1 #second hit
sustain=false

The C1 note now sustains using the last known velocity, which obviously is quite silent. \:\)

From what my piano does this is pretty much how I imagine that it is "thinking".

For all I now this may be due to processing limitations in the piano or maybe even due to the way the pianos try to handle limited polyphony available. I really have no idea how the digital pianos are programmed something like the above scenario fits results that I get from my piano.
_________________________
Roland FP-7 / Pianoteq 4.5.1


Top
#702978 - 10/28/08 02:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
I noticed that too on my Kawai CA51.

Top
#702979 - 10/30/08 12:30 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
curious14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 30
Loc: US
Score one for my GEM RP800 - the note sustains after the pedal is released.

But given that this technique requires skill and timing, both of which I lack, I'll just use the sostenuto pedal.

Top
#702980 - 10/30/08 12:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened.
jscomposer, i am happy to announce that my YAMAHA CLP-240 does it right:
The notes still sustain in this test!

So i suppose the whole CLP-2xx and CLP-3xx series have it right to.

I am curious about the ROLAND HP-20x series.

Can somebody do a test?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

Top
#702981 - 10/30/08 03:18 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Berlin
my HP-203 failed the test.

So did Galaxy II Steinway so far, though I haven't fiddled with all options yet.
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

Top
#702982 - 10/30/08 03:23 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right. But a number of Yamahas get it. A few Casios get it too. LOL It's kinda strange which Yamahas get it and which ones don't. Like the P80, P120, P140 get it, but the P250 didn't get it (at least the ones I've tried).

I'm a little surprised the GEM RP800 got it! I tried one of their Promegas and it failed this test. I also tried one of their cabinet pianos, it was either an RP700 or RP800, I wish I could remember which. But it didn't get this right. So that's interesting that yours does. I'll have to find a dealer and test them out again. I really like their sounds.

Anyone here have a GEM pRP700 or pRP800 they could try this on? Those are the models I'm most interested in, and I hear that they have a different action than their cabinet counterparts. So there may be hope!

Although, I wonder if it has anything to do with settings. Hey curious14, what are the settings on your RP800?
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

Top
#702983 - 10/30/08 06:24 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
my yamaha CP300 failed the test haha. I guess that part isn't modified since the CP250.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

Top
#702984 - 10/31/08 01:13 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I enjoyed your writing and playing on both pieces Joshua.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2
RCF TT08A & TT22A speakers


Top
#702985 - 10/31/08 06:10 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jrcallan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 362
Loc: Pennsylvania
Casio AP-45 passed.

Does this test apply to models like this that do have sostenuto?

Top
#702986 - 10/31/08 08:25 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Eronaile Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Norway
My CLP330 failed. Which seems kinda odd if the 240 got it right. Not that it matters much to me though, will never have any use for it \:\)

Top
#702987 - 10/31/08 09:56 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
My Yamaha s90es failed the test with the default set-up.

I am wonder if some deep editing will correct this.
When I have time I will ask Yamaha tech support.

Top
#702988 - 10/31/08 11:39 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Ferris:
I enjoyed your writing and playing on both pieces Joshua. [/b]
Thanks!
 Quote:
Originally posted by jrcallan:
Does this test apply to models like this that do have sostenuto?[/b]
Sure. A DP that has a sostenuto pedal AND can get this mechanism right is ideal!
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

Top
#702989 - 10/31/08 12:15 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
My CLP330 failed. Which seems kinda odd if the 240 got it right. Not that it matters much to me though, will never have any use for it
Very strange indeed!

I did the test again several times with my CLP-240 and it's perfect: the notes of the chord sustain as long as they should do if the sustain pedal was pressed.

And if i slowly press 1 note of the chord again (also without making a new sound of course) that note only sustains like it should do with the sustain pedal.

It works also perfectly with the middle pedal or "sostenuto" pedal.

Why should Yamaha has changed that? Or maybe something has changed in the CLP-3xx software?

Any one with a CLP-340/370/380 and also a 270/280 ?
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

Top
#702990 - 10/31/08 12:45 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
ere Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 109
Loc: UK
I was told that soft-piano pianoteq passed it...
_________________________
My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)

Top
#702991 - 10/31/08 12:45 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
My CLP-270 failed the test! I will go to the store and try the 240 if they still have one.

Top
#702992 - 10/31/08 01:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by ere:
I was told that soft-piano pianoteq passed it... [/b]
;) :p

Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. :rolleyes: )

My Yamaha P80 doesn't have sympathetic resonance and it passes this test, so that's a check. Can you guys verify this on yours? And what about the other makes we've covered, like Casio, Kawai, etc.?

(To test sympathetic resonance, press down a chord slowly enough not to produce any sound. While still holding it, play any other note staccato. The notes you're holding down will generate a faint sound if your DP has sympathetic resonance. If all you hear is the staccato note, then your DP doesn't have sympathetic resonance.)
_________________________
Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

Top
#702993 - 10/31/08 02:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Gizzmo_rudy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Netherlands
Well, my clp-340... passed the test \:\)

Top
#702994 - 10/31/08 02:14 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
I guess that makes sense since I just tested my CP300 again and it has sympathetic resonance and it doesn't have that sostenuto thing right.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

Top
#702995 - 10/31/08 03:44 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
AnthonyB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 659
Loc: Center City, MN
Yeah, the FP-7 also does sympathetic resonance as well as fails the test.
_________________________
Roland FP-7 / Pianoteq 4.5.1


Top
#702996 - 10/31/08 06:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think.
Sympathetic Resonance is another term for String Resonance.

 Quote:
To test sympathetic resonance, press down a chord slowly enough not to produce any sound. While still holding it, play any other note staccato. The notes you're holding down will generate a faint sound if your DP has sympathetic resonance. If all you hear is the staccato note, then your DP doesn't have sympathetic resonance
You can listen to this: HERE.

So in the CLP-2xx series only the 270 and 280 have this feature and in the new CLP-3xx series only the 380.
The CP-300 has it too.

For the Roland HP-2xx: 203, 204 and 207 have String Resonance. So has the FP-7.

For Kawai CA series: CA-51, 71, 91 all have String Resonance.

I read here that the Kawai CA-51, Roland HP-203, Yamaha CLP-280 all failed the test, which follows the quote of the Yamaha technicians.

But in this case Eronaile's CLP-330 should have passed since it has no String resonance?

Beside this, it's very strange that all the high end digitals with String resonance fail this "reality test"!
I mean, just like Jscomposer suggests, i think it can't be that difficult to make the software let just cut the String Resonance samples/sounds so that the note you pressed again still sustains, but minus the String Resonance samples/sounds of the other notes (those you do not press anymore) because they are now dampened.

The extra Stereo Sustain Samples (a feature of the Yamaha CLP-340,370,380 and 240,270,280 when you press the Sustain pedal, also called Damper pedal) are nicely cut off when you release the right pedal again, so it must be possible to let the software cut off the extra String Resonance samples at the moment they are no longer needed.

( 'Stereo Sustain Samples' is a Yamaha term, Roland calls it 'Damper Samples' in it's HP-201 to 207 series. )


Any clever technicians there to explain what's the problem to get this right?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

Top
#702997 - 10/31/08 10:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
 Quote:
Originally posted by jscomposer:
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right. But a number of Yamahas get it. A few Casios get it too. LOL It's kinda strange which Yamahas get it and which ones don't. Like the P80, P120, P140 get it, but the P250 didn't get it (at least the ones I've tried).

I'm a little surprised the GEM RP800 got it! I tried one of their Promegas and it failed this test. I also tried one of their cabinet pianos, it was either an RP700 or RP800, I wish I could remember which. But it didn't get this right. So that's interesting that yours does. I'll have to find a dealer and test them out again. I really like their sounds.

Anyone here have a GEM pRP700 or pRP800 they could try this on? Those are the models I'm most interested in, and I hear that they have a different action than their cabinet counterparts. So there may be hope!

Although, I wonder if it has anything to do with settings. Hey curious14, what are the settings on your RP800? [/b]
Just tested it on my RP700. It did not pass this test, though it does have sympathetic resonance, and a sostenuto.

When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with.

I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though.
_________________________
Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
Ritmuller/Pearl River

Top
#702998 - 11/01/08 03:09 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
eJohn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 129
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Fascinating thread. I never noticed this flaw on my HP-207, but there's no excuse for Roland not getting it right. We'll see if they do in their next model line..

Top
#702999 - 11/01/08 06:35 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
deepsky Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Norway
My CLP-380 passed the test.

Top
#703000 - 11/01/08 07:06 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
jrcallan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 362
Loc: Pennsylvania
Casio AP-45 does not have string resonance, using the test described, but does pass the sostenuto test. Sounds like the theory is a good one.

Top
#703001 - 11/01/08 11:22 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
I went to the store and checked a few. The CLP 240 works, CLP380 works. Actually I tried 4 or 5 of the Clarinovas and they all worked. I just can't remember the model number for them.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

Top
#703002 - 11/01/08 08:01 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
f2ot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 1
Loc: France
My "old" CLP-115 passed the sostenuto test...

Top
#703003 - 11/02/08 03:48 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Copilot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Belgium, Europe
 Quote:
I went to the store and checked a few. The CLP 240 works, CLP380 works. Actually I tried 4 or 5 of the Clarinovas and they all worked. I just can't remember the model number for them.
The CLP-380 has String Resonance AND passed the 'sostenuto test' three times in this thread!

It looks like Yamaha found a way to get it right in the CLP-380 to.

So there's no reason why it schouldn't work with the CLP-320, 330, 340 and 370.

Eronaile can you do the test again, because your CLP-330 should have passed following the theory, since it has no String Resonance?

;\)
_________________________
I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.

Top
#703004 - 11/02/08 07:31 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
Eronaile Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Norway
Well, I'm 100 % certain that it doesn't pass, if I had a cam I could record it ;\)

Just to be certain: I press the pedal, strike a key, let the key go, strike it again real slow so the note doesn't sound a second time, then depress the pedal while holding the key. Result, the sound stops when I let go of the pedal, while the key is still pressed.

Top
#703005 - 11/02/08 05:49 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3160
Loc: Virginia, USA
Just tried it on my ancient Yamaha, the long discontinued P500.

Passed with no problem.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
120 registered (AndresD, 36251, anotherscott, barbaram, Art_Vandelay, 37 invisible), 1407 Guests and 21 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75569 Members
42 Forums
156249 Topics
2294667 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
casinitaly! Many happy returns of the day!
by malkin
14 minutes 9 seconds ago
T.J. Rochford Piano, trying to uncover some history
by Mikey Bob
46 minutes 20 seconds ago
How to study harmony through Bach
by ttttcrngyblflpp
46 minutes 21 seconds ago
Gustav Lutz?
by MartaG
Today at 06:37 AM
Can anyone help me identify Bach's music in this soundtrack?
by WellTemperedPizza
Today at 05:30 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission