Well, I did a lot of research and finally went to see these two pianos. I am interested in playing acoustical, practicing at night without bothering anyone as well as recording my father and brother. I am a beginner who took lessons 15 years ago and now as an empty nester, can't figure out what the heck to do with myself now, so.... I'm buying a piano! Look out Diana!

The Story & Clark, 5'5 with the QRS Petine was just okay. The inside rim was laminite. That was wierd. The sound was okay. The lower bass tended to reverberate a lot. The treble was crisp however. (I am a layman speaking so excuse the possible non-piano terms.)

The thing that got me though was when the player was playing, I could hear the keys moving. Alot. You know, the mechanical sound (not the notes.) That would really bug me. One good thing is the player could play pretty soft and the remote was nice. The player unit itself was small and unobtrusive.

Then I went to see a Yamaha DGC1A with a Mark III Disklavier. I know that a lot of people have said that this piano isn't that great but it sounded more musical to me than the S&C. I guess it was more clear. Also, you could barely hear the keys moving and I love the headphone jack. There was no delay from key to playback with the silent mode on. I kept taking my headphones off to make sure the store wasn't playing a joke on me and having the entire store hear me massacring songs The Disklavier could not play as softly as the S&C QRS.

Of course my favorite combo was a C1 with the Mark IV. Awesome!

My search continues. Any input would greatly be appreciated. I have to record and don't want a digital. Budget is $12,000-$15,000.
Thanks so much everyone. These posts have helped tremendously.

Card,

The Disklavier DGC1A will, in fact, play very quiet, once you activate the silent system. As an acoustic player, there is not as much control over the volume as the Mark IV Disklavier (but it's thousands and thousands more). If you want really quiet background piano playing, switch to the "silent system" (digital piano) and you can lower it all the way down to "zero".

The overall advantage of the Disklavier over nearly any other system is it's ability to do most everything flawlessly. Larry Fine (the piano book) says that "Yamaha has no competition" when it comes to player pianos.

Regarding the GC1 as a piano, the C1 is better. But the GC1 has become the best selling Yamaha grand piano of late as it is a very similar instrument including the scale design. You just have to give up some features (slo-close fallboard, full sostenuto pedal, etc). To most, these features are worth sacrificing because of the lower cost.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Paul

Thanks so much for the info Paul. Since I don't even know what sostenuto is, let alone pronounce it, chances are I won't miss it. I also never had a slo-close fallboard on my last Yamaha, so that shouldn't be an issue either. I'm going to call the dealer and see what his best price on last year's 5'3 with a Mark III is. I think he has three he wants to really sell. Have a good week and thanks again for responding.

Card,

That's terrific! God, I wish I had a warehouse full of DGC1A's! When we heard they were being replace with the Mark IV, we called Yamaha and they had already depleted their supply

Good luck and please let us know how you make out!

Paul

It sounds like the Story & Clark you heard had not been serviced properly, because when they are, the actions are not known for being "loud" Let this stand as yet another lesson for dealers who do not take make certain that their showroom pianos are in top shape. Your short-sighted cheapness costs you sales, and hurts the reputations of the companies you represent!

I am a QRS installer myself and can tell you that there is no reason that a Pianomation system shouldn't sound absolutely fabulous on a solid, well serviced piano. It is also worth noting that QRS did just release a new record system that is supposed to be outstanding. (I haven't had the chance to use it yet myself but can let you know my thoughts once I do)

Best wishes!

Recently I played the new S&C 5 and 6ft1 pianos these are the newer scale design pianos from S&C The 5 5 that I played is still the old scale design without the improvements and according to many sales personal from S&C is no where up to the standard of the other two. To get the patine included for 8000 for a 5ft guand is tremendous.Also this player is installed in the US by story and clark. Ive called several times to ask many questions. I found the customer and tech service to be excellant. Also the Ancho player was just released and I was able to compare it to the Petine I found both very similar except the Ancho comes with a sound card and its desplay is 20 or 21 characters. Both were very quiet. The mechanical noise that you heard may of come from a unit that was installed by the dealer and not adjusted properly. I found some dealers are loosing sales to the lesser priced S&C so this becomes a way to persuade the customer to buy the more expensive pianos

Thanks CTP and Algae. Any word on when the new recording device will be available to the public? I checked the QRS website and there is no mention, however, I did see a brochure outlining a new PNO optical recording system. Is this the system you are talking about? Maybe I will wait on my decision until I see it. I'm trying to be very good and not make impulsive decisions.

Both systems are available now. If you go to www.qrsmusic.com you will see both players.If you have any questions call Story and Clark they are located in Pa. ask to speak to a service tech if you have any questions on the players. Dont get me wrong Yahama is a great piano but the new Story and Clark has a lot to offer not to mention youll save 4 or 5000 dollars. That 6 1 had a great sound http://www.sonnysinstantpiano.com/gal_piano_detail.php?EditID=86 If you go to this site sonnys piano gives a demo of the story and clark with the petine system. Hes a honest guy that runs a smal piano store here on long island.Also does ebay sales. but you can get some ideas from the demo.He adds the sound card to the petine and the recording strip is an opyion

I watched the link...and something jumped out at me...the salesman said....you can download midi files from millions of web sites.. uh???..that's allot of zeros....sure ya'll get a million hits but on what?

You cannot simply download midi files from the Internet, burn a CD and simply put it into the piano and expect it to play wonderfully. In fact, there is much more to it than that. The salesman in the video does not explain the details..

Most midi files are recorded on completely different midi devices using multiple channel and voice configurations. 99.99% of the time the midi file will need tweaking to play with your QRS or Disklavier system. Meaning that you will need a PC with some midi sequencing software.

Even after you tweak the midi file there is no guarantee that the midi file will sound good on your player piano.

I find that only about 20% of midi files on the Internet are good enough to play on my Disklavier system and since the QRS system is midi capable, you would see the same result as I do.

The free midi files you find on the Internet are not professional recordings by any means and usually are very poor quality recordings.

One more point..

Since most of the midi files you find on the Internet are not meant for your QRS or Disklavier systems you are forced to rely on the expensive song libraries that the manufacturer supplies. And if you have ever browsed the libraries you'll most likely find a small percentage of songs you actually like and are willing to buy.

Bottom line, these player systems require some computer savy to truly unleash the potential of the midi player systems. Take for example, there is a popular web site that has hundreds of classical midi files. I forget the web site's URL but be assured that these midi files will not play properly on your QRS or Disklavier systems. I downloaded several of these classical midi files and found that ALL of them do not contain any sustain pedal work. I had to actually add a track of sustain pedal to make the piece sound half way decent.

I have the Yamaha Disklavier system and all though I enjoy it's play back capabilities emensely it is my PC savy skills that truly unleash the player technology.

This site might be a help for getting those "millions" of midi files, and they may play fine on the QRS etc players?

http://dp70.dyndns.org/pianocorder/wapc/

Scroll down to music. Click on Terry Smythe's site...lots of classical stuff there from the Ampico, Duo-Art reproducing rolls that should play fine. There are lots of other sites there as well, all designed to play on solenoid based pianos.

Gpman

I have a compact flash card with over 4,000 songs on it, all public domain, all of which play very well on my QRS Petine. The best sites I have found are the Classical Music Archives, and Doug Mckenzie(jazz) Just google these names and your in business. I have also found that the files from the Yamaha E-competition play very well on my Pianomation.

To find MIDI files just do a google search that gets very specific. For instance you want to include all of the words PIANO SOLO MIDI CLASSICAL but none of the words TEACH STUDENT LEARN I have found that if I don't exclude those words, I'll wind up with a bunch of web sites on how to learn piano over the internet!

As to having to edit some 90% of downloaded files, just remember that the Disklavier does handle the pedal information somewhat differently than many other MIDI devices in order to accomodate its ability for incremental pedaling. This may partly explain why you may be having trouble with pedaling on the files you download. It has been my experience that if the song sounds good on my computers sound card, it will sound good on my Pianomation.

I have found MIDI files a fun way to add to my library. That being said it should be noted that the QRS Petine can play PianoDisc CD's, and converting Disklavier files to standard MIDI format is quite doable I'm told. Having all three systems libraries available sure does open of the possibilities.

Good luck and have fun on your search!

Here is an invaluable site for converting Midi files to Disklavier or vice-versa.

http://www.carolrpt.com/musicsoftware.htm

Gpman

grandpianoman
Some good info ...Thanks!

>
>

CTPianotech
I was not aware that the Disklavier handles the pedaling information differently. I will look further into that.
The web site you mentioned - Classical Archives is the web site I mentioned earlier in this thread. If I recall when playing those files there was no pedal information.

I too downloaded all the midi files from the E-competition web site and some songs play well on my Disklavier and some don't. In somes cases, the keys move but there is no piano sound. It seems odd seeing that theses songs were recorded on the Disklavier directly.???

To clarify on the E-Piano competition midi files not playing correctly. What happens is despite the volume playback there are keys that appear to be played but not hard enough to emit any sound.?

FYI...My Disklavier has been calibrated.

Flya, that is strange that the E-Competition files do not play well on your Disklavier. I have a different solenoid system and they play fine on that, so long as I have the loudness control turned up a bit. It could be that you downloaded the wrong version. There are 3 different types of Disklavier files on that site. It might be that you need to play the correct version for your Disklavier. Also, I wonder if your Disklavier needs some tweaking? Just a guess on my part as I don't own a Disklavier.

Glad you found the info helpful!

Gpman

Ahh, we must have posted at the same time! If your Disklavier has been calibrated, then it very well could be the version you are playing. Check on the site, there is a place where you can dload any of the 3 versions of the same piece. One of the versions is only for the Disklavier Pro.

Gpman

I did not know there were multiple versions...

I will check the site again and let you know.

Some songs play wonderfully ! Especially the Rachmaninoff Elegy 3 Op1 play by Konstantin Krasnitsky. I can listen to my DC3A play that song all day !!!!

grandpianoman,

I see on the E-competition site the talk about different file formats but I only see the links to download the XP Standard midi file formats that are intended for a Disklavier Pro?

One thing of note, I usually don't put the downloaded files onto a floppy disk. I just use use playback by my sequencer. The web site recommends playback from floppy as midi sequencing software alters playback.

Grandpianoman-

What type of solenoid based system do you have? It may be possible to calibrate your system so that you don't have to turn it up to make certain all the notes play. Also, I've noticed that the E-comp MIDI files "master" volume is set to 100, where as most MIDI files I download are set to 127.

Another thing that could give possible trouble with pedaling. On some MIDI files the pedal information is on a different track, and is being sent through a different channel than the rest of the MIDI data. If for instance, you were playing a MIDI file on a QRS from a computer by going straight into the MIDI in of the processor, you would have to manualy "assign" all of the data to be sent to channel 1. If however you were playing MIDI files from a CD-R or a C-flash card on QRS's Petine controller, you wouldn't have to do anything because it can automatically recognizes piano MIDI data and plays it. (once in a while a file doesn't play, I have found that can be caused by the sequencer having written some speech or other brand specific info onto a file)

Hi CTP, thanks for your advice. The solenoid system I have at the moment is a Pianocorder that is run by a computer program. The Pianocorder is old technology, but a genuine workhorse, and if installed correctly and the electronics were updated along with the solenoids, it can play quite well and very musically. With this new software by Mark Fontana: http://dp70.dyndns.org/pianocorder/wapc/ it does a great job. The problem of having to turn the volume up so that quiet notes do not drop out I belive is a combination of factors.....the action needs to be regulated and the whole Pianocorder needs to be re- furbished and installed in the optimum position in the piano.

I am expecting my new/old 1925 M&Hamlin RBB (BB) total rebuild to be finished in about 4 months, so doing anything to my current piano would not make any sense. The RBB is going to have a rebuilt Ampico as well as a new solenoid system. Meanwhile, I can put up with having to turn the volume up a bit and the occasional dropped note or two.

Gpman

FLYA, Yes, the link to download the other formats is somewhat buried at the E-Competition site....look here as an example of one contestant's program...scroll down to the bottom of the page where you will be able to dload the 3 different formats.

http://www.piano-e-competition.com/contestantbios04/jiechen.htm


Here is the page that explains the different formats: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midiinstructions.htm

and here is the page with all the contestant's programs:

http://www.piano-e-competition.com/2004Contestants.htm


You might want to try and playback the E-Competition files without going through a sequencer, that may be part of your problem.

Gpman

Grandpianoman-

Wow a Mason+Hamlin BB with an Ampico! Very few of these were ever made. My father has a business restoring pneumatic players, and a properly restored Ampico on a restored Mason BB is as good as it gets!

My only question is how is it also going to have a solenoid based system on it? All the pneumatics are right were the solenoid rail would have to be. I have seen MIDI valves integrated with a pneumatic player (infact a M+HRBB as I recall). This system opperated the pneumatics, but instead of the information coming from the roll, it would come from a MIDI controller. Maybe this is what you were referring to.

The Pianocorders are workhorses indeed! Fontanas MIDI to Piano CD program was most helpful to me before the new QRS front end came out, since their previous "base" front end could not read a data CD.

Hi CTP, Yes, a very rare beast indeed....of the M&H RBB, only 74 were made, 4 of those were B's, the rest A's! Actually, the only reason a solenoid system can be installed in there along with the Ampico, is the fact that there is a large amount of room underneath and couple that with an excellent rebuilder who understands both systems and you have a successful project.

Normally, as you correctly point out, you cannot put a solenoid system in with a reproducing system, but with this rebuilder, who is a whiz at this kind of stuff, and this RBB, it's possible. He had to re-engineer a lot of the workings to get it to fit and operate correctly, so it should work perfectly. I am hoping around June to have it back home here. Will post some pictures and a couple of sound files here with Rachmaninoff playing the Ampico and the solenoid system.


Gpman

So... would you buy a 6'1 S&C, with player or a Yamaha Disklavier DGC1A 5'3" grand if they were the same amount of money and both are new to one year old?

Sorry Card, got a little of track!

Let's start with the pianos apart from the systems-

Yamaha has an excellent reputation for reliability, and service. I service a number of S&C pianos, with all also seem to be doing quite well. The warranty service I have received from both companies has been what I would consider "above and beyond". (QRS Music is the company that owns the S&C name)
The next concern is for tone. A 5'3" does not sound as good as the 6'1" S+C IMHO. This is not in any way whatsoever a slap at Yamaha pianos. I think they are a good company that produces good pianos. It's really just a matter of scale design. Unless a manufacturer has done something dreadfully wrong, we should expect that a 6' will sound better than a 5'3". That being said, if your own ears tell you otherwise, listen to them first!

Our next concern is for the pianos with the player system:

Even though the Disklavier you mentioned is not of the new "Mark IV"(just guessing here) it should function very well as a reproducing player system with record, so long as everything is well calibrated. Does this system have a silent mode? In some cases the let-off has to be set pretty far back to accomadate a "shank stopper" which prevents the hammers from hitting the strings. It may be helpful to try playing some soft-loud-soft again passages on the piano and try to notice if you're having any undue difficulty changing dynamics. If not, then don't worry about it. The other potential concern that comes up sometimes with the Disklaviers, is not being able to turn the volume down enough on the piano during playback. Turn the volume down as low as it will go on the system, and ask yourself if this is going to be o.k. with you, in your home, during a party, or if you just want the piano as background. Now on that piano you may be able to shut the acoustic piano off, and hear digital piano music come through a speaker mounted in a piano. Many people use this option almost all the time on their Disklavier and enjoy it very much. To do this, to me, it just seems as though you'd have a very expensive, piano shaped keyboard, and why you'd do just as well to get a nice Clavinova and pocket the leftover $$.
As for the Pianomation, there are a few things as well to be aware of. First, the playback capabilities on the system are absolutely first rate when properly set up. If you are considering a S+C with a Pianomation, I would also make certain that you are getting the Petine or Ancho user box. These are QRS's new front ends, and they are a huge advacement over the previous units. You should be able to turn the volume down on the piano so that it is barely audible, and missing few, if any notes. I would also make certain that a pedal solenoid is included. In the past, QRS was very big on their "magic pedal" technology, which just sustained the notes, instead of having a solenoid that lifts the dampers off the strings. Many people have this on their Pianomation and like it fine. I however, think it is one of the stupidest, hokiest things I've ever heard. Properly set up, the QRS pedal solenoid works perfectly, and I've noticed on new S+C grands, more are coming with the soleniod already included, so I've probably just scared you for no reason. (sorry!) The next consideration is for the record system. QRS used the Gulbransen record strip for years, because it had a pretty consistent reliable track record. Just recently they anounced that the new PNOscan record strip is available. I've been speaking with tech support folks for months about this record strip, and they are all extremely exicted about it. In fact, I've put off installing a record strip in my own piano, partly because I've been waiting on this one. I'll let the forum know my results. That being said, for you, I would make sure you are happy with the record capabilities of the system prior to committing to buy. This is asking something of the dealer if it's not something they usually carry, but it seems only fair to me!

Ultimately, play the pianos, play with all the toys on the respective systems, and pick the one your most happy with that stays reasonably-kinda-sorta with your budget. Then have fun!

Best wishes!

CTPianotech,
Thank you so, so, so much. You have addressed the issues I am focusing on.

I did notice the acoustic playback limitations at a lower volume on the Yamaha. Since this will be in my "used to be dining room", that is a concern for me.

So, you think the that a S&C where the keys click alot (mechanical sound) was a poorly set up QRS system?

Do you also think that the S&C is less brighter than a Yamaha? Sorry for asking what to you is probably questions that could be answered by just playing but the dealer doesn't have a 6' in yet and the Yamaha is 100 miles away. Argh!

One more question, if I may, The 5'3 Yamaha (DGC1A w/Mark III) has a rather thin rim with a rough, looks like luan. The S&C has a laminate or veneer? Any take on that?

Thanks a heap!!!!!

Gpman,

I finally got a chance to download all the appropriate midi files from the E-Competition website for the Disklavier MIII (Non-Pro edition).

I also transferred all the files to floppy disks and played the files on my Disklavier.

The difference in playback is night and day.(Playback is much improved) I've been playing the files via my computer and that seems to be the big problem.

Which brings up an important point? What good is it to have a Midi grand piano if you cannot use midi sequencing software with it?

It seems that the only way for proper playback on the Disklavier Mark III is to play from floppy disk or the memory bank.

Do you have the same issue with midi playback from a computer on your PianoDisk QRS system?

Card,

I would consider the 6'1 S&C over the Disklavier DGC1A 5'3" if the S&C plays and sounds good to you. As I mentioned earlier, the bigger instrument may be more musically pleasing to you.

I don't know much about the QRS systems but if it's the latest technology I've heard good things about them.

(off topic)
Good MIDI playback requires precise sequencing/timing of events. Is it possible that your computer is multi-tasking too much as to miss the timing a bit here and there? The Disklavier controller box is a dedicated device to do a very small set of very specific tasks. A typical PC is set up to do many things at the same time: disk activity, network activity, keyboard/mouse inputs, switching betyween programs, etc. are all interrupts that can impact software timing... could that be the problem? I use a 5 year old laptop to record, and to avoid dropping samples, I always turn off the network interfaces, turn off the screen saver, turn off power-saving mode, etc. to get a "lean" running system for recording. Wondering if perhaps some of these tricks might help.