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#704806 - 09/11/01 01:46 PM On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
...we can't talk about pianos.

My condolences to to all my American friends.
We're with you in prayer and thought.
God bless America.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704807 - 09/11/01 02:21 PM Re: On a day like this.........
AndrewG Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2506
Loc: Denver, Colorado
America as a nation suffers inmeasurably today. This is the saddest day of my life. I was on the top observations deck of WTC three times. All my precious memories turned sad today...

God bless America!

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#704808 - 09/11/01 03:21 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Tuesday, September 11, 2001
VICIOUS BLACK TUESDAY!
A Day That Will Live In Infamy!

A great pause has descended on the country, stunned silence, everyone views the repeat footage of the defining point of the new century, a full sized jetliner filmed as it deliberately crashes into what WAS the World Trade Center, over and over again, as if this was a special effect out of some high tech disaster movie. But no, everyone knows that this was a REAL disaster. The obvious was felt by everyone in stunned silence; tens of thousands of people had just died and everyone knew it. Many whispered the horrible word WAR under their breaths.

Would more piano music have changed history? Would those whose hearts had been deliberately turned black with hate by whatever motivates such acts of premeditated malice so deep that the perpetrators were willing to KILL THEMSELVES in order to achieve this horrific notoriety, would those hearts been turned from such acts by exposure to more great and glorious piano music? Obviously we'll never know.

They too were the brainwashed victims in this tragedy. Those who used them as their tools were motivated by IDEAS and my friends it is those IDEAS which need exposure and once exposed to the light of reason must be presented to the world community of mankind as NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE among civilized men! If not, then we are doomed to descend farther into barbarism so great that no matter whether we play our music in public or in private, the Dark Age surrounding us will make our efforts even more futile than they have already become.

We have just had a wake up call. There are those out there with sufficient means and resolve to try to bring our civilization down to THEIR level. What shall we do?

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704809 - 09/11/01 07:43 PM Re: On a day like this.........
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Today is a dark day in American History. What could possibly motivate anyone to do such a thing, to wound an entire country as deeply as this? To start a prelude to a possible war. Piano was just about the farthes thing from my mind today but I did sit down to play "My Country is of Thee" and I at that point, I just about cried. I nearly cried when I first heard about this as well. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ALL OF ITS PEOPLE. GOD BLESS THE INNOCENT VICTIMS OF THIS TERRABLE ACT OF TERRORISM AND GOD BLESS ALL OF THOSE BRAVE HEROIC SOULS WHO WENT INTO THE BURNING BUILDINGS BEOFRE THEY COLLAPSED TO RESCUE SURVIVOURS. MAY GOD BE WITH THEM. AMEN
_________________________
For off-topic discussion, please feel free to visit www.coffee-room.com

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#704810 - 09/11/01 07:52 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Prayers are good.Giving blood is good.

1000's of dead people aren't.

Perhaps it's time to trade Bin Laden for the
'best' America has. The time of B.S. is over.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704811 - 09/11/01 08:39 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5567
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Norbert,
Thank you for your thoughts from our neighbors up north.
I have to agree with you, it's time to put a stop to this madness.
_________________________
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-------------------------
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#704812 - 09/11/01 10:19 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
Hug your kids, folks. Hug your kids and call your mothers.

The world mourns a senseless tragedy.

God Bless America.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

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#704813 - 09/12/01 01:31 AM Re: On a day like this.........
magnezium Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Singapore
it's been terrible... my family watched in horror as CNN repeatedly flashed footage of the plane crashing into the WTC and the whole thing coming down as people were screaming and crying and running all over... if it even shook us, halfway around the world, to such an extent, i can't imagine how the Americans must be feeling... my sympathies to all those affected...


From a letter our Prime Minister wrote to President Bush:

'I am shocked and deeply saddened to learn of the tragic loss of lives by the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington... I would like to convey my deepest condolences to you, the families of all the bereaved and the people and government of the United States of America... We join you and others in strongly comdemning these acts of terrorism...'

god bless America...

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#704814 - 09/12/01 02:49 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Ruth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 32
Loc: Germany
Dear all on Piano Forum

Hearing about this terrible act of violence
yesterday afternoon has deeply shocked me
and my thoughts are with you.
All politicians here in Germany expressed their deep sympathy for the american people and assured their solidarity with the United States.
I keep listening to the radio, where they also ask people in the street about what they think and feel. Everybody is shocked and condemns this terroristic act. But also a lot of concern regarding the consequences is expressed and people appeal to the US to first investigate and find out who was responsible, before striking out on suspicion. I guess that in Germany we fear that there will be an escalation that will encompass the whole world. Maybe that's what the terrorists want.
I can imagine what you feel now and your wish to stop the responsible persons for good, but please think of a sensible and calculated way to do this.
There will be help from Europe in finding the
wire-pullers and hopefully all democratic countries in the world will see this as a chance to hold together. But lets not forget that a great part of people who are forced to live under certain regimes or in awful living conditions are no terrorists and do not believe in terrorism as a way to push through their ideas.
Sorry for the prayer, but I (and most of the German people) just think of nothing else but this event, the victims and the consequences for all of us.
Take care.
Ruth

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#704815 - 09/12/01 03:28 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Anonymous
Unregistered


Everything came to a halt in Germany yesterday afternoon when the news reached our country.
I've seen this disaster yesterday on a big, cinema-like screen in our office and it seemed so surreal. I just couldn't beleive that this was really happening - it was a tremendous shock...all these innocent people who lost their lives within seconds.
This horrible act of violence is not only a disaster for America but for the entire civilized and democratic world.

My thoughts are with all of you.

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#704816 - 09/12/01 10:31 AM Re: On a day like this.........
EricL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 140
Loc: Upstate NY
I went through a lot of emotions yesterday, from disbelief, denial, to acceptance, anger and grief. What really made my blood boil was to watch film footage of some Palestinians dancing on the streets and passing out candies to 'celebrate' the tragedies that came upon this great nation. I always have sympathy for the Palestinians and I have never seen Americans dancing on the streets when innocent Palestinians were killed in the Middle East. A cloud of hatred came over me. I wanted to get my hands on the throats of those responsible for these hideous acts. I have never hated anybody in my life and I didn't think I was capable of this feeling. I cried while playing the piano. Music had calmed me down and returned me to my former self.

I totally agree with Ruth, we need to exercise control and good judgement, find out who the guilty party is and punish those who are responsible. We should not condemn an entire nation or an entire race just because of the despicable acts of a few. No matter what, I will stand behind my government and my people.

Eric

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#704817 - 09/12/01 01:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
while it is true that we must discover the responsible parties and bring them to justice, it is also true that our own federal government--in the form of the FAA, the CIA, the U.S. Congress, and the FBI--did not do their jobs. nor did the airlines or the airports.

there have been warnings for years that this type of attack would be almost inevitable unless we took measures to prevent it. the congress took only the weakest of measures, and did not implement the recommendations that were made by investigators. our intelligence agencies should have known that this was coming, and the hijackers should never have been able to get through airport security with knives! numerous investigations have shown that airport security has been sorely inadequate for quite some time, and, obviously, nobody did anything about it.

while yes, terrorists are to blame, we also have to look at the failure of our own system.

i think it would also behoove the u.s. to reexamine our foreign policy and what it is we are doing that might cause anyone to rejoice at our losses. how many people realize that it was the CIA that taught Bin Laden how to be a terrorist, when it was the Soviet Union that we trained him to terrorize? why is it OK that our CIA train and orchestrate terrorism abroad? we don't like it when it happens here--will we now open our eyes to what has been happening elsewhere in the world for decades, sometimes at our own instigation? many people around the world are saying under their breath, "now you know how it feels!"

the people who died in yesterday's tragedy did not have to die. the world doesn't have to be this way. lower manhattan looked like beirut yesterday. it should not have looked like any place--this should never happen anywhere, not just here. lives everywhere are precious, not just those in the u.s.a.

i lived in nyc for many years, spent much of yesterday in fear for friends and family, watched the news reports with tears streaming down my face for the loss of those thousands of innocent lives. my husband's brother will probably be scarred for life by the scenes he witnessed as he escaped from the World Financial Center yesterday morning.

i am very angry. but not just at terrorists.

i will try to practice tonight. perhaps i'll be lucky enough to be restored by it. for now i feel paralyzed by shock.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704818 - 09/12/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
go to this link to read about how we were failed by our government and the airline industry:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/national/12AVIA.html
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704819 - 09/12/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rich D. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1239
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
My wife and I are on vacation. We first heard about these terrible events as we were traveling by car from Quebec to the US. Like everyone, we were shocked by what happened and our faith shaken. What evil there is in the world! We live in Arlington Virginia, and drive by the Pentagon every day to go to work. I cannot imagine what it must have been like there when the plane hit. The tragedy in NYC is beyond my comprehension. Watching it on TV is becoming more difficult. Lets hope our leaders will truely lead us now, though I'm afraid fingerpointing has already begun. We're still not home, but I wish we were. Our vacation is over.

Rich
_________________________
Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

"Life is like a piano....what you get out of it depends on how you play it"
Anonymous


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#704820 - 09/12/01 02:48 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Yesterday, cowardly rats disguised as human terrorists brought their form of warfare onto U.S. soil. It was a despicable act, and I mourn for all those Americans who lost loved ones.

Did all of our government agencies fail us? I think probably not. To paraphrase JFK - If a man is willing to give up his life in order to take yours, defense is almost impossible. You cannot reason with a crazy man. Witness that the FBI is only talking about 7 suspects (although I'm sure there will be more)who actually perpetrated this crime and were willing to die for their misplaced beliefs. And the latest reports are that they used plastic ( or some composite) knives that were undetectable by xray. I don't blame us, I blame the terrorists.

We are a free, open society, and they took advantage of that. Today many are calling for a diminishing of our freedoms for promises of security. To acheive an adequate level of security while maintaining our Bill of Rights is going to be a daunting task. But it shall be done.

One strange emotion that I have felt that I thought would be totally foreign to this tradgedy is pride. When I think of the New York firefighters charging up the tower steps to rescue the victims, only to become victims themselves, I am proud of their actions. When you think of all the policemen who may have perished while performing their duty, I am proud of their actions. If the latest news reports are accurate and the passengers of the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania actually had the courage to fight armed hijackers, I take pride in knowing these were Americans. And while watching the latest video of the WTC site on TV last night, I saw that someone had tied an American flag to what was left of a traffic light pole. There was a heavy coating of grey dust on the flag, but it still fluttered in the breeze against a backdrop of unimaginable carnage, while rescue workers unceasingly searched for survivors. I was proud of that flag and the men and women working in the strange glow of the searchlights behind it.

I feel certain that in these darkest of days, the American spirit and character shall not be broken by the scum of the Third World.

God bless America.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly ]
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#704821 - 09/12/01 05:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
And while watching the latest video of the WTC site on TV last night, I saw that someone had tied an American flag to what was left of a traffic light pole. There was a heavy coating of grey dust on the flag, but it still fluttered in the breeze against a backdrop of unimaginable carnage, while rescue workers unceasingly searched for survivors. I was proud of that flag and the men and women working in the strange glow of the searchlights behind it.

[/b]


Someone else said almost the exact same thing, using these words:

Oh say, can you see
By the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we held
at the twilight's last gleaming,

Whose broad stripes and bright stars
Through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched,
Were so gallantly streaming?

And the rockets' red glare,
The bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night
That our flag was still there.

Oh say, does that star-spangled banner
yet wave,
O'er the land of the free, and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen throughout the mists of the deep
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes
What is that which the breeze o'er the towering steep
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream.
`Tis the Star-Spangled Banner, Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

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#704822 - 09/12/01 05:46 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I'm back, couldn't come to work yesterday, the trains weren't running. It's very SURREAL here and hard to believe when not actually watching TV, walking down the street and seeing the smoke plumes, or listening to the radio, it's just so unbelievable. I have a great view of Manhattan from my Brooklyn roof and the view from there yesterday morning I have to admit, was shocking: just a great billowing cloud coming from where the WTC used to be. Being aware of all the lives that have been lost there was too much to sort out. I was in shock most of the day and still feel pretty much the same. The city is so strange today. Most stores around where I work (21st & Bway) are closed, there is very little traffic, few people, the smell of burned rubber--so unreal.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704823 - 09/12/01 06:32 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Pardon me, and I realize that this forum may not be the most appropriate place for these kinds of discussions, but damn it, better than 10,000 people were killed yesterday and like it or not A STATE OF WAR EXISTS. The post that was submitted by pique illustrates many ideas that many of us have been feeling, but they may not be appropriate under these NEW conditions.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
while it is true that we must discover the responsible parties and bring them to justice, it is also true that our own federal government--in the form of the FAA, the CIA, the U.S. Congress, and the FBI--did not do their jobs. nor did the airlines or the airports. [/b]


Maybe they did, but so what? Obviously changes will now be made so that a relative security can be restored so that we can go on with our lives, war or no war. The reasons nothing was done is that there is always too much discussion in a democracy about every policy: our government can't usually get away with making draconian decisions even to protect their citizens. Times may now be changing.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
there have been warnings for years that this type of attack would be almost inevitable unless we took measures to prevent it. the congress took only the weakest of measures, and did not implement the recommendations that were made by investigators. our intelligence agencies should have known that this was coming, and the hijackers should never have been able to get through airport security with knives! numerous investigations have shown that airport security has been sorely inadequate for quite some time, and, obviously, nobody did anything about it.[/b]


Hey, I usually wear a Swiss Army knife on my keys and I did last time I went on a plane. Probably I've worn one on a plane for the last time, but again, this is all hindsight. Things have changed now simply because someone has succeeded in bringing war home to us.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
while yes, terrorists are to blame, we also have to look at the failure of our own system. [/b]


I think it's time to start thinking of things differently now. WE ARE AT WAR. What is clear is that we have to define who the enemies are and do something about it. Those who did this were willing to GIVE UP THEIR LIVES. You cannot defend against people who are willing to die for what they believe. The enemy is extremism, they are willing to do anything to accomplish their ends. We have dealt with people like this before. They are not just ordinary criminals: they are FANATICS.

"A Fanatic is someone who can't change their mind and won't change the subject." Winston Churchill

It isn't about religion, it may be about politics, but it certainly is about EXTREMISTS who are willing to GIVE UP THEIR LIVES believing they will be transported to a paradise of 10,000 virgins. What a pipedream! Obviously these people are INSANE. If your dog goes mad, despite how much you may love it, you put it out of its misery. It's time to kill these mad dogs.

"Wars are waged to convince the losers that their view of the world is mistaken." Carroll Quigley

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i think it would also behoove the u.s. to reexamine our foreign policy and what it is we are doing that might cause anyone to rejoice at our losses. how many people realize that it was the CIA that taught Bin Laden how to be a terrorist, when it was the Soviet Union that we trained him to terrorize? why is it OK that our CIA train and orchestrate terrorism abroad? we don't like it when it happens here--will we now open our eyes to what has been happening elsewhere in the world for decades, sometimes at our own instigation? many people around the world are saying under their breath, "now you know how it feels!" [/b]


And THIS is why I decided to respond. This kind of reasoning makes me FURIOUS! Apparently you know NOTHING about real politics in the real world. Best you and the lot of you idealists learned real quick. We USE people, and we aren't the only nation that uses people on the international scheme of things. We did not want Communism with a big C to take over the middle east and YES it IS about OIL. So now they have decided to bite the hand that fed them. Again I say, it's time to kill the mad dog. It would BEHOOVE you and the rest of the idealists out there to get with reality. We are now at war and when at war the game is win or loose. We must win. These people must be destroyed. Civilization is at stake, unless of course you'd rather live in a Moslem or some other totalitarian state.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
the people who died in yesterday's tragedy did not have to die. the world doesn't have to be this way. lower manhattan looked like beirut yesterday. it should not have looked like any place--this should never happen anywhere, not just here. lives everywhere are precious, not just those in the u.s.a. [/b]


No, of course not, but nothing we say or do will bring them back or restore what has been taken. What we need to think about now is how to make anyone who wants to do this to us again think twice about ever contemplating such an action ever again. Yesterday was the single worst day in America in terms of loss of life since the Battle of Antetum in 1863! The military response should be of epic proportions: nothing else will do.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i lived in nyc for many years, spent much of yesterday in fear for friends and family, watched the news reports with tears streaming down my face for the loss of those thousands of innocent lives. my husband's brother will probably be scarred for life by the scenes he witnessed as he escaped from the World Financial Center yesterday morning. [/b]


I too used to live in NYC and worked downtown. It is eerie to think that I was in those buildings many times and that they are no longer there. I may have lost friends in NYC yesterday, some I knew who worked in those buildings, people I've known for 20 years. I can't call into NYC to find out. I don't know if they are alive or dead.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i am very angry. but not just at terrorists. [/b]


Well, since we still live in a democracy I'll exercise my right to suggest that any anger against anyone else at this point is misplaced. Now, there's only the terrorists and those who have given them shelter. There is NO WAY to guarantee that innocent civilians will not be harmed. INNOCENT CIVILIANS HAVE ALREADY BEEN HARMED. There also needs to be a worldwide crusade against fanaticism of all kinds, especially the varieties that are willing to GIVE UP THEIR OWN LIVES for their cause.

And I regret to even think this, but I'm very very angry: as for the Palestinians cheering on the streets, they've lost any support I ever gave them. Let the Israelis drive them off what land they have and take the whole place for themselves!

And as for music, try the Revolutionary Etude, the final movement of the Moonlight Sonata or some other furious piece in a minor key that suggests the spirit of these times.

There's A Time for Peace
And A Time For War
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704824 - 09/12/01 07:25 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
well, dave, you succeeded in really ****ing me off. i prefer to think of myself as a humanitarian, though i don't think there is anything wrong with being an idealist.

all the flag-waving boosterism in the world won't change what happened yesterday, either.

i would rather see this country take realistic and introspective stock of its own role in the world and its own responsibilities than to have us rashly and dangerously pursue an unwise retaliation that will only increase hostility and resentment against us, and cost more innocent lives. we've got a bunch of foolhardy hawks in office, and it scares me. there's only one moderate in the bunch, and nobody seems to be listening to him.

already arab-americans are being persecuted in the streets, being turned into scapegoats. that's the kind of results you get with the idea that we have to have a "war" mentality now. all your sentiments do is stir up a fire-breathing blood lust, that is easily misdirected. it is shameful.

i think you were more correct in your first sentence, that this forum is no place for creating controversy. therefore, i cease further comment on this issue as of now, and, if so moved, will take it elsewhere.

with all due respect,
pk
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704825 - 09/12/01 07:46 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5567
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
At this time of utter horror and grief it is understandable that we are angry, upset, sad, outraged, and more.
I may not agree with everything everyone has been saying on our forums, but one of our most basic freedoms is the freedom of speech.

I look at all of our members as part of our community and part of the larger community that makes up our great country and other free countries around the world.
All I ask is that you do not allow these tragic events to cause you to lash out at your fellow members.

Feel free to continue to post your thoughts and feelings on our forums for as long as you feel the need. Just please remember to treat each other with the same respect I always expected from our members during our happier posts about pianos.

This catastrophe has affected all of us and we must stand together.

Frank B.
Piano World
_________________________
- Frank B.
Founder / Host
www.PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
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Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Hammond XK-3, Hammond A-100, Estey 1895 Pump Organ
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
And please invite everyone you know to join our piano forums!
Coming to Maine? We're in Parsonsfield (southwest) let's get together!


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#704826 - 09/12/01 08:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
thank you, frank. i appreciate your sentiments and very much agree.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704827 - 09/12/01 09:55 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
I looked over what pique wrote and what I wrote in answer. I have no personal disrespect for her for what she says. This is still America and I will passionately defend anyone's right to say whatever they think even if I completely disagree. But I won't retract what I said about the unrealistic views of people who have no realistic experience with intelligence gathering or of how real business must sometimes be conducted around the world and yes I am saying that I do have this experience. I'll say no more. If anyone thinks that I view the present situation or what must be done with any glee, then I am apprizing them now that I do not. There are times when severe matters require severe solutions. I'll refrain from making any statements that could be construed as attacking anyone personally, however I reserve the right to try to improve everyone's consciousness with more realistic information about the world we all live in.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has announced a revised estimate of fatalities in the attack on the World Trade Center at 20,000+! The mayor of New York has ordered 16,000 body bags. I reiterate, this is war!

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: David Burton ]
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704828 - 09/13/01 12:54 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Hi all,

And now, to break up the discussion with a sweet anecdote:

In 1997, I traveled to the former Soviet Union, to the middle of nowhere, Russia, as a Christian missionary. My church had (and still has) a "sister church" relationship with the small churches of Saransk, which sprouted the year before. Despite the years of the Cold War, I found the Russians warm and hospitable and I cried my eyes out when I left. I kept in touch with my interpreter, who at the time was a college student. She's now a professional interpreter for a Beligium-owned brewery based in her home town (isn't capitalism great?). Despite many of the older Russian's pessimism and impatience about their current conditions, I found the young people hopeful and willing to sacrifice their generation for a better future that would allow them to earn a living in proportion to their work output. Oh, there were (still are) plenty of problems. My interpreter's uncle, who owned a small photo developing shop, "disappeared" for a couple of days after refusing to pay the local mafia for "protection." (He reappeared a couple of days later, bruised. He then shut down his store).

I continue to communicate with the woman I call my sister primarily by email. But on Tuesday night, I got a call at 10:15 p.m. First the pregnant pause as the international connection was made, then her precious voice. She wanted to know how I was (shell-shocked). And she especially wanted me and everyone to know that not only she but everyone she knows is deeply saddened by what has happened. She said, "We feel very bad for America. We take it personal."

We not only need to unite as a country. Freedom and democracy-loving people need to unite everywhere. It's time to take a stand for what is right.

penny

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Penny ]

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#704829 - 09/13/01 01:53 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
this is war mongering. i don't know where you get your figures, dave. they just announced on the news that no one has announced any estimates of how many people died in the WTC.

as for defending our civilized society, how civilized is a society that shoots out the windows of u.s. mosques?

and what are your mysterious credentials that give you the authority to say that hypocrisy is good foreign policy? there are terrorism experts all over the news saying that a retaliation could be the worst possible choice we could make, that it would only breed more terrorism.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704830 - 09/13/01 02:00 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
thanks for your story, penny. i'm sure that is true that people in the free world stand in solidarity with us.

there have been such incredible stories of selflessness. tonight on NPR a woman called in to tell of how a total stranger gave her her car keys so she could drive home to texas from california. the stranger said, "i can walk to work. i don't need my car."

i did go practice the piano tonight. it was very soothing to have an outlet for all this feeling. i played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died.

i think it would be very helpful for us to have a national day of mourning, and very soon.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704831 - 09/13/01 03:21 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
this is war mongering. i don't know where you get your figures, dave. they just announced on the news that no one has announced any estimates of how many people died in the WTC.

as for defending our civilized society, how civilized is a society that shoots out the windows of u.s. mosques?

and what are your mysterious credentials that give you the authority to say that hypocrisy is good foreign policy? there are terrorism experts all over the news saying that a retaliation could be the worst possible choice we could make, that it would only breed more terrorism.[/b]


I don't know what news you're watching, but it sure isn't here in America - or you're hearing what you want to hear, no offense. ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News, the Drudge Report, Newsmax, WorldNetDaily, and the Associated Press are all reporting the death toll is going to top 30,000. And on all of these news agencies, the terrorist experts I've heard interviewed all agree that the terrorists should have been blown to bits years ago, and that what is needed now is to hunt them down and kill them. I have yet to hear a single one say that retaliation will only breed more terrorism. In fact, it was pointed out on several programs that retailiation is *exactly* what is needed, and they cite the following as proof that retaliation works - back in the early 80s when Kahdafi was bombing discos in West Germany where American soldiers frequented, we sent bombers over and blew up his palaces, killing many of his relatives, including his infant granddaughter - we focused square in on Khadafi and hit him where it hurt him the most - and the result of this retaliation was that Mohamar Khadafi pretty much ended his terrorist activities as a result, and hasn't been a problem since.

I don't want to make you mad, or get into an argument with you. But you simply aren't dealing with the facts. This is not just a criminal act. It is an act of war. As soon as we have identified those responsible for this, our government should swiftly and without warning launch a full scale attack on the guilty, and kill every last one of them standing right there in their shoes. And if a country or a government is aiding or protecting the guilty, we should level the place.

And before you tell me I am a warmonger who is out of step with America, all those news agencies I listed are also reporting that 94% of Americans agree right down the line with me. The entire country is demanding the guilty pay, and pay dearly. Enlistments in the military are up 4 fold, even retired military and those who have already served in the past are asking to be allowed to rejoin the military in huge numbers.

War was declared when the first plane hit the first tower. Countries all over the world have lined up on the side of America. Even China and Russia are in favor of swift and massive retaliation. And there *will* be a massive military attack on those who are guilty. The death toll in the WTC alone is over 30,000. This doesn't count the victims on the planes, or the nearly 200 who died at the Pentagon.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#704832 - 09/13/01 03:50 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
I watched this tragedy unfold from start to present. I watched live the 110 story towers plummet to the earth. And I watched the Palestinians on the West Bank celebrating upon receiving news of the thousands upon thousands of American CIVILIAN lives that had just been lost.

Anyone that is not angered by this is not human, and certainly not American. Even people abroad are horrified and sickened by this. There is simply no justification for such an act.

This has gone on too long. So far our dealings with people such as bin Laden have been somewhat of slaps on the wrist. I see this as more than ample reason to exterminate this man and his followers. It's very much time to act. Anyone who could possibly remain indifferent, let alone celebratesuch blatant disregard for human life cannot be human themselves. The time for diplomacy with these people is over, and it is time - no it is PAST time to rid ourselves of these creatures. I am completely in favor of Bush's vow to make no distinction between the perpetrators and those who harbor them. I have no doubt that the U.S. government will do what is necessary in retaliating and dealing with these wastes of oxygen. I see no alternative.

I value and respect the opinions of others, but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them. Agree or no, these are MY opinions, and I ask you to do the same for me.

GOD BLESS AMERICA
_________________________
Josh

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#704833 - 09/13/01 04:12 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
By the way pique, I suppose we should have just let Pearl Harbor go without retaliation too? Our current situation is just as much an act of war. If we do nothing we appear weak and soft, and become targets. I wish our nation to be bullied no longer. If there were no laws that punished theft, why would people just stop stealing? It's time to bring an iron fist down and tell terrorists everywhere we mean business. You mess with the bull you get the horns.

GOD BLESS AMERICA
_________________________
Josh

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#704834 - 09/13/01 09:06 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
This was forwarded to me so I thought I'd do my part and forward it
on hoping that it will uplift you in this time of tragedy...


TRIBUTE TO AMERICA


The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

Its subject is "America: The Good Neighbor"

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
> remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of
his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as
the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy
were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts
to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the
Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Doctrine pumped billions of dollars
into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over
the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them?
Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk
about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake of 1989.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb
their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#704835 - 09/13/01 09:30 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Israeli intelligence has said that the Iraqi government funded the attacks coordinated by bin Laden. Big surprise here, if true.

It's time to go after the terrorist cells in a long, drawn out counterterrorist offensive. It's also time to smash the command and control of countries that have offered assistance to the terrorists, and have used them as unofficial vehicles to do the bidding that they're unable, or too cowardly, to do openly. We need to retaliate against these nations in measures exponentially greater than the damage that their assistance caused on our soil, literally destroying the framework of the nation, if necessary. This is the only lesson that animals like this will understand. You take my eye, I'll take your life. You kill one of us, we'll kill ten of you. You kill 12,000 of us, and we'll erase you from the planet. This is how you end state-sponsored terrorism.

You think that's tough talk? Tell it to the survivors of those who were murdered in the World Trade Center. Tell it to the other people and their families around the country who go to work every day, wondering if they're next.

Dwain

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