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Topic Options
#704836 - 09/13/01 09:37 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
I am in total agreement, Dwain. These people are unable to be negotiated with, and it's about time we crack down in ways that will make anyone think twice about doing this to us again.
_________________________
Josh

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#704837 - 09/13/01 09:52 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Ideas we far away can do:

Give blood.

Pray.

Raise the flag, half-mast if you can.

Support our troops when called upon.

Check in on the families of FBI agents and police officers everywhere. They're working overtime. Cook a meal. Help with child care.

Buy U.S. stocks when the market opens.


On that last point, I reprint an email from an investment userlist to which I subscribe:


"Don't let the terrorist win. They want to disrupt our economy and cause
panic in our markets. When the markets open tomorrow or on Monday BUY.

As we all know, there are only good and bad men and women in this world. Bad
men did this act. It was not the nationality of the perpetrators that caused
this disaster, but the fact that they were evil. This said I call on all in
the world. Including those of the Arab nations to buy US stocks when the
market opens. Since they have no respect for human life the killing of the
people in the World Trade Center was only a means to an end and meant nothing
to them. What they want is to shake the American people and the U. S.
economy. We can thwart this plan when the markets open.

I therefore call on all peace loving people around the world to BUY when the
markets open.

Thanks,

Rich"

penny

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#704838 - 09/13/01 09:58 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
larry,
i don't want to get into an argument with you, either. but i do hold to my right to respectfully disagree, or to seek common ground.

the news reports i am watching and listening to are the new york times, the washington post, the boston globe, cnn, msnbc--all on the web. on television i've spent long hours watching nbc and pbs. on the radio i've been listening to npr/bbc radio.

it was about midnight last night that nbc announced that no one has calculated the number of deaths or is willing to make an estimate, the will only say "in the thousands."

if there are news reports saying it was 30,000 people, i'd have to say, as a journalist myself, that they are taking a wild guess and trying to sensationalize the news. nobody yet knows how many died, at least, as of last night. and since the last reports i heard from new york were that they may have to call off the search and rescue effort because of the dangers to the crews, i doubt very much they have new information this morning, though i haven't yet checked.

NPR and PBS have been broadcasting reports from Britain and those have included experts on terrorism who caution us that retaliation is a dangerous course of action. the broadcasts from abroad have repeatedly emphasized the failure of u.s. intelligence, for that matter, tom brokaw on nbc has repeatedly used the phrase "a stunning failure of u.s. intelligence." the broadcasts from britain have also included many experts who advise the u.s. to reexamine its foreign policy.

who is hearing only what they want to hear?

i have no doubt that most americans agree with you. it is a very upsetting time, and people are very emotional, including myself. i think even so, it is important to step back and think rationally and strategically about what the best course of action should be. colin powell seems to be the only member of the administration who is willing to do that, and is advising caution. and he is not getting much support, i understand.

i have no sympathy for the palestinians whatever, and didn't before they started dancing in the streets celebrating our agony. their behaviour is utterly repugnant to me. most of my family was instrumental in founding israel, and some played key roles in resettling the jews from the death camps after the holocaust. the tales of the devastation there are legend in my family. but most of us now just want peace. and the actions the u.s. should take should work towards that goal.

lives are sacred everywhere. not just in the u.s. and i cannot help but fear the pain and heartbreak we will cause other mothers, brothers, sisters, daughters in other parts of the world if we do not proceed with a true sense of justice, as opposed to hasty revenge. do we want to cause more agony and suffering? is that justice?

Here is an excerpt from a news editorial i read this morning:

> So, the question is which civilians will be unlucky enough to be in the way of
> the U.S. bombs and missiles that might be unleashed. The last time the U.S.
> responded to terrorism, the attack on its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in
> 1998, it was innocents in the Sudan and Afghanistan who were in the way. We
> were told that time around they hit only military targets, though the target in
> the Sudan turned out to be a pharmaceutical factory.
>
> As I monitored television during the day, the talk of retaliation was in the
> air; in the voices of some of the national-security "experts" there was a
> hunger for retaliation. Even the journalists couldn't resist; speculating on a
> military strike that might come, Peter Jennings of ABC News said that "the
> response is going to have to be massive" if it is to be effective.
>
> Let us not forget that a "massive response" will kill people, and if the
> pattern of past U.S. actions holds, it will kill innocents. Innocent people,
> just like the ones in the towers in New York and the ones on the airplanes that
> were hijacked. To borrow from President Bush, "mother and fathers, friends and
> neighbors" will surely die in a massive response.
>
> If we are truly going to claim to be decent people, our tears must flow not
> only for those of our own country. People are people, and grief that is limited
> to those within a specific political boundary denies the humanity of others.
>
> And if we are to be decent people, we all must demand of our government -- the
> government that a great man of peace, Martin Luther King Jr., once described
> as "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" -- that the insanity stop
> here.
>
> Mr. Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at
> Austin.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704839 - 09/13/01 10:13 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Why are we arguing about how many people may be dead? Is it really going to change our response if only a couple hundred die versus tens of thousands. The terrorists targeted our landmarks -- our president even! If the numbers of dead are small, then we are very blessed indeed. But that doesn't change the facts that 12 to 30 terrorists boarded commercial jets, commandeered them into civilian areas and targeted our president!

BTW, only 80-something bodies have been found YET. This just in from the wires, according to the companies that used to be in the WTC, more than 4,000 employees are missing. And NBC reported that the K9 units are overwhelmed with the smell of human flesh (sorry for the graphic description).

penny

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#704840 - 09/13/01 10:25 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
it is wrong to broadcast numbers that have no basis in fact and serve only to inflame people even more. reporting that 4,000 people are unaccounted for is a very far cry from claiming that 30,000 people died! how are we to rely on our news sources for any information if we can't trust them to be accurate about something like this? perhaps our response won't be affected by this particular fact, but some other "fact" could make all the difference in the world.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704841 - 09/13/01 10:57 AM Re: On a day like this.........
AndrewG Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2506
Loc: Denver, Colorado
My heart is still bleeding for the greatest country in the world. Someone mailed me this. I feel obligated to share with my piano friends here. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to do so on the forum. If not, Frank, delete my post.

--------------------------------------------
A little history about this article.
Sinclair wrote it in the early 80's


America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were breaking

down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and
never even get a thank you for the things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can
and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until
this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American
that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Stand proud, America

-Dave Reuss
Desktop Services

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#704842 - 09/13/01 11:27 AM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
Penny, I agree, the exact number surely is irrelevant when we're talking about terrorism within our own borders. The leveling of our national monuments with our own commercial airliners. Killing civilians without warning. All with the implicit message that we can do this at any time, and you can never be sure when it will happen again. How can it be possible to "sensationalize" these brutal attacks beyond what they already are?

pique, don't get me wrong. I am of a similar opinion that many of these monsters we deal with our of our own making, specifically thru lawless and unaccountable covert operations done in the interest of "national security." But now that the monster is here, in our own country, threatening our freedom, it's not a time to place blame. We must deal with it. I'm of the opinion that the best way to do this is by all of us presenting a united front behind our leaders in the interest of national strength. To do otherwise would be to weaken our national fortitude and is no doubt exactly what the terrorists want to have happen.

We all differ in political ideology, and last week these differences were very important to all of us in regards to our leadership and the direction of the country. This week we are all simply Americans! Americans who do not want our children to grow up blanketed in fear that they can be killed at any moment by random acts of terrorism.

For what it's worth. Hope you agree.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]
_________________________
wgh

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#704843 - 09/13/01 11:55 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i appreciate your post, wg, and the sentiments behind it. i would like to propose that we as a people and a nation are strong enough to admit complexity and ambiguity into our discussions and our view of the world without jeopardizing our position or our options.

i sense from what you are saying that the general feeling is that if we question ourselves, we weaken ourselves. my personal experience is just the opposite. self-questioning and the willingness to ask hard questions and look at complexity, admit ambiguity, is a sign of great stregnth. i think it strenghtens us as a people, and certainly leads to better choices.

if we refuse to do this because we don't want to be confused by the facts, we may be doomed to making some very bad choices. i fail to see how our nation, our people, are served by turning the world and our tragedy into black-and-white. seeing the shades of gray and facing them takes fortitude and integrity.

we still lack a lot of information. this isn't like pearl harbor--we don't really know who the enemy is. those planes did not have arab or japanese flags on their wings. it could be a situation that requires a great deal of diplomacy. there are recent reports that the terrorist cell may have originated from germany. are we going to bomb germany because they harbored these people?

have we also even considered the possibility that everyone who was ever involved in this scheme died in the crash? what if there is no one to retaliate against?

i believe that a strong america is one that is willing to examine its institutions and make them better. i love this country very much. there could be no one more typically american than i am, in the sense of loving liberty. i think it is very american to exercise one's right of free speech, to think independently, to contribute to the exchange and diversity of ideas. i do not see how we are served as a nation by all of us seeing the world exactly the same way, or by coercing those who think differently than we do into silence.

we can be completely united as a people, and yet have debate about how this tragedy should be viewed. one does not have to undercut the other. it is understood that, especially at this time, this nation is one family. do we want to be an open and healthy family, or a dysfunctional one? a healthy family allows its members to speak freely, even if that leads to disagreement. that doesn't mean we love each other any the less or don't "stand together."
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704844 - 09/13/01 12:41 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i just received and signed a petition addressing president bush. here is the text, which i think expresses my views more eloquently than i have:

"Dear Friends:
A great tragedy has befallen our nation. A catastrophe that leaves
none of our lives untouched. Many innocent lives were lost due to a
senseless act of terror and violence. Although this horrific event
may outrage many, and rightly so, it cannot be justified or corrected
through more violence. Another senseless act in retaliation will not
repair the damage done, nor bring back those who were lost. It will
only perpetuate a violent, barbaric cycle fueled by hatred and
ignorance. The perpetrators of these crimes must be caught and brought
to justice, but without the continued loss of innocent life.

President Bush,
We the undersigned encourage you to take responsible, peaceful action
in bringing the terrorists to justice. Please seriously consider the
negative ramifications of continued killing and perpetuating the cycle
of violence. Although many lives have already been lost, MANY MORE CAN
STILL BE SAVED."

if any of you would like to sign this petition, let me know and i'll send it to you.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704845 - 09/13/01 12:52 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Brad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Lexington, KY
Remember, I'm the one who suggested a moderated forum . . .

"pique" --

How many dead, how much suffering is required for your outrage?

Your first reaction appears to be to blame America first .... NOTHING justifies the terroristic murder of 5,000 or more innocent civilians.

We know who the enemy is: militant islamic fundamentalists, including Bin Landen and others who are backed, supported, and funded by Syria, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, and others.

They want to kill us. They want to destroy our way of life, our freedom, and our democracy.

If they had the chance, they would kill you, your husband, and everyone in your family and then dance in the streets of Palestine.

WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK.

I regret the need to be brutal, but the lesson of September 11 is that this is no longer theory, this is no longer a commentary on NPR, this is no longer the editorial pages of the New York Times: IT CAN HAPPEN HERE.

Top
#704846 - 09/13/01 12:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Eldon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Illinois
Pique,
You've got your head up your *** sooo far it's pathetic. You KNOW what you can do with your petition!
_________________________
Sincerely,
Eldon

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#704847 - 09/13/01 01:32 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Unfortunately, many have the idea that the people who did this are like us deep down. THEY AREN'T. Examine their actions. Examine the reactions of multitudes across the Middle East. They are different through and through.

Pique, you are right though that we need to question ourselves. We need to question the way we've dealt with these people for the past 30 years and see that appeasement, compassion, and aid has done nothing but intensify their hatred for us. They understand strength. It's time that we finally show them some.

I suggest that you might want to read the article "Why They Hate Us"
http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pryce-jones100101.shtml
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#704848 - 09/13/01 01:46 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Wow, I knew you journalists tended to be a little liberal, but you really scare me, Pique. I shutter to think what the last 55 years would have been like on this whole PLANET if the USA in 1941 was full of people like you! Unbelievable. Does the name Chamberlain mean anything to you? We have to stamp this out now, and it won't be easy or pretty. Freedom is very much at stake here. BTW, experts in Germany (according to CNN.com) claim that up to 1,000 Muslim extremists are living in Hamburg, raising money for the evildoers. To answer your question, NO we don't bomb Germany - we seek their cooperation, demand their cooperation if necessary, in handing these people over as potential accomplices. Wake up please.

Top
#704849 - 09/13/01 01:57 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Sorry pique, I won't be signing that petition. I do not believe in peace at any cost; rather, I believe that appeasement for peace only gurantees its loss. There are things worth fighting for.

Dwain

Top
#704850 - 09/13/01 02:00 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
BTW, here's a link to the original script of the 1973 Gordon Sinclair editorial http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/ccf/news/unique/am_text.html

Both of the above quotations are altered versions that have circulated on the internet for years. You can even find this on the Urban Legends Reference Pages
www. snopes2.com
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#704851 - 09/13/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14282
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
America and its allies must deal their enemies NOW a card that would make all bombs and grenades of the second world war look like a 'handshake among good old pals'.
There is no middle ground left to pussyfoot.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704852 - 09/13/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
brad,
when or where did i ever say i was not outraged? i think i said just the opposite.
and where did i say that this tragedy could ever be justified? you are not reading what i wrote.

eldon,
thanks for your erudite (not) commentary. i seem to remember there was a call here for civility and mutual respect. if there was to be a moderator on this forum they should remove your post for not following those guidelines. i've said nothing to attack you personally, and there is no call for you to make personal attacks. just because you don't agree with someone else's viewpoint doesn't make it ok for you to be insulting.

dt,
you are right, i believe that all human beings are basically the same. i disagree with you that others from different nations or belief systems are somehow less than human.

i've shared my views and said my peace. if there is anyone else here who agrees with me, they might be too afraid to speak up at this point, having seen the reception i've received. that is too bad. this is an open forum, and no one who expresses themselves in a respectful way should be silenced by personal attacks or condemnation.

and if no one else here agrees with me, and this forum is a good representative sampling of general public sentiment, which it may well be, i really fear for this country.

fortunately, i know i'm not alone.

thanks, piano world, for a forum to exercise my rights of free speech. perhaps there are those who aren't posting here who read what i wrote with more thoughtfulness than those who are posting here with bombast.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704853 - 09/13/01 02:37 PM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i sense from what you are saying that the general feeling is that if we question ourselves, we weaken ourselves.[/b]


No, really, I'm not saying that all. Believe me, no one is more "shades of grey" than me and I never accept what is presented to me (be it the media, our leaders, etc.) without questioning to get to the motives beneath. I resist being an unthinking member of the flock and I agree with you that normally that's a very good thing. I'm only suggesting to you that now is not the time for it. I abhor violence and war but I'm going to stand behind the President regardless of what comes in an effort to assist in the united front that the terrorists cannot break. My hope is that among a country of zealous supporters and jaded cynics and everyone in between, the circumstances of such clearly defined black-and-white evil can unite us in a strong sense of nationalist pride and a sense of purpose to ultimately restore our security.
_________________________
wgh

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#704854 - 09/13/01 03:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I believe I said that they are "different." Being different in ones core beliefs holds no implication of being less human. To make such an inference is very revealing.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#704855 - 09/13/01 03:37 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
the implication of your post, DT, was that since they are different from us, it is ok to kill them. since human life is sacred, in my book, that is saying they are sub-human.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704856 - 09/13/01 03:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14282
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
If anybody could find a bag of tea in the rubble of the New York towers or the crashed airplanes: would he please come forward and serve it to those who appear to be in
"tea-time-discussion-mood" at this time?

If we get lucky, perhaps Bin Laden comes forward and personally likes to join in?

I'm told he may even offer his own 'point of
view' and 'valid'opinions. Anything goes.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704857 - 09/13/01 04:00 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
The point was that since they are different from you they need to be dealt with differently, with strength rather than appeasement. No value judgment was implied nor intended.

Since they killed innocent westerners without a second thought, they must have considered those people less than human, right? You hold life sacred and obviously consider that a sign of humanity. These people didn't. Ergo, they lack humanity. Q.E.D.

I didn't think it would happen but you've convinced me. These people and their supporters are less than human and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

By golly, it is tea time. See you tomorrow.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: DT ]
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#704858 - 09/13/01 04:01 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
Pique, I will not be signing that petition. Just capturing and punishing the masterminds behind this is not a wise decision in my opinion. Making a martyr of these terrorist leaders is not a good idea, considering the numbers of fanatics that support and follow, even revere, these leaders. And I think we know who the enemy is. Many victims on the doomed planes identified the hijackers during cell phone calls to loved ones on the ground. That to me is rather convincing evidence. Fanatics care nothing for diplomacy or negotiating. They must be exterminated by means of severe retaliation. I respect your opinions Pique, and you have every right to them, but with all due respect I think you are living in a fantasy world if you think it can be that easy and bloodless. Time will tell, and I certainly hope these people are dealt with severely.

Josh
_________________________
Josh

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#704859 - 09/13/01 04:06 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Dear pique,

I think you mistake the galvanic anger of the American people for bombast. These are not mere words - these are the underpinnings for a sea change in how America views the world and how it responds to terrorism.

The President has stated that "this is the first war of the 21st century". I believe him. And in war, collateral damage of innocents is tolerated, but not encouraged by civilized societies. So I hope there are no more casulties except those that are absolutely necessary.

But these barbaric rats have cast the die. They have started this tragic cascade. They have sown the seeds, now let them reap the whirlwind.
_________________________
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#704860 - 09/13/01 04:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
I think I speak for most Americans when I say that action is needed, and it is needed soon. If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war. pacifism is not what we need, what we do need is intelligent militarism. God bless American, and the world for that matter.

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#704861 - 09/13/01 04:33 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
some of you seem to be casting me as a defender of the terrorists and their supporters. i don't understand how i could have conveyed that impression from what i have written. it certainly could not be further from the truth.

my concern is that those who AREN'T responsible for these atrocious acts would nevertheless pay for them with their lives, just because they are arabs or moslems, or live in a particular country (especially since there is no one particular country that is so far identified with these acts). the moslems in seattle are already paying. that is wrong. see this story:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134340989_mosques13m.html

this is no longer 1941. it is a very different world now. we have nuclear weapons in the wrong hands. we have an entire culture in certain parts of the world that fosters suicide missions. war is a very different enterprise now than it was back then; it sounds like some of you are feeling a lot of nostalgia for that time, but we don't live in that time.

as for the mistake we made in the Persian Gulf war of not eliminating the leaders who foment this kind of aggression, i actually agree with you. i count it as a major failing of Bush the First that he didn't wipe out the leader of Iraq. while he was going about the business of bombing innocents, why didn't he hit the target? what then was the point of all those lost lives?

as for what i have written here, i don't think i am being heard; and perhaps no one here is yet ready to hear what i have to say. i'm leaving town for a few days and won't be near the news or the computer, (thankfully!) i wish all of you well. i hope we all come through this stronger and more united. it is still incomprehensible to me, the load of grief.
_________________________
piqué

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#704862 - 09/13/01 04:51 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Pique,
According to a recent Norman Schwarzkopf sp?) statement, American and Allied pilots during the Gulf War took incredible pains to only hit military targets during the Gulf War. Even to the point of putting themselves at added risk. What exactly are you talking about? Something tells me that if we actually tried to take Baghdad with ground troops (to get Sadaam), you would have been screaming bloody murder. Talk about your civilian casualties! You can't have it both ways here, or anywhere.

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#704863 - 09/13/01 05:12 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I would quickly like to state that I agree with everything that pique has said so far. Alot of what I've seen on TV (ABC) is similar to what pique has mentioned. I listened to a former head of the CIA last evening stressing the enormous importance of how and when we strike back. He said it was the most important decision that will have to be made in a very long time. The result of hasty knee-jerk reaction could have devastating results for the world. The fact is we do not yet know who is behind these attacks this week. I also heard a women author of a book on terrorism saying to Charlie Rose that she believes Saddam Hussein is probably behind this attach. But we really don't know yet and when we find out I have no doubt the retaliation will be quick and hopefully, surgical. I am of the same mind as pique when it comes to killing innocent civilians--I'm totally opposed to it. For me there is never any circumstance to justify killing innocent civilians. When I have more time later, I'll add more comments.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704864 - 09/13/01 05:41 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Norbert wrote:
 Quote:
If we get lucky, perhaps Bin Laden comes forward and personally likes to join in? I'm told he may even offer his own 'point of view' and 'valid'opinions. Anything goes.


DT wrote:
 Quote:
By golly, it is tea time. See you tomorrow.


May I suggest that by stooping to denigrating sarcasms you show yourselves as harboring an attitude which is basically un-American? Faced with a differing opinion you find it necessary to 'put down' those who have a strong counter opinion.

CrashTest wrote:
 Quote:
If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war.


You are therefore willing to take the same line of thinking as these terrorists. For them it is war, and their argument is no different from what you have just used to justify the killing of innocent civilians.

Before I am mis-interpretted (I have just all the foregoing messages and see how pique has been grossly mis-read), let me state that I abhor terrorism and now that the shock is wearing off, feel sick and sad and very angry. But I also believe that as a human being and an American, it is my duty, as it is of our leaders, to use our heads in deciding how and at whom to retaliate. We have a golden opportunity to galvanize the entire world in an effort to combat terrorism at this time--EVEN LIBYA offered condolensed yesterday--Libya! By using our heads, not losing them, we may do a tremendous good for the world and that would be the greatest of all retaliations. Do not allow this heinous crime to perpetuate even more crime.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704865 - 09/13/01 05:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14282
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
This isn't the "Bridge of Rehmagen"

The guys you're dealing with will light an atomic bomb in the middle of Manhatten.

When given the next chance.
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