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#704866 - 09/13/01 05:52 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Neither I, nor pique, has said that we are against retaliation. I am simply saying that we need to be sure who we are retaliating against and we should ensure that more innocent life is not taken in the process.

There is potential to turn this tragedy into an ever greater catastrophe. There is also potential to possibly gain some good out of all this horror.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704867 - 09/13/01 05:58 PM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
Bernard,

I don't think anyone here is against finding out whom we're dealing with!

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]
_________________________
wgh

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#704868 - 09/13/01 06:24 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
wghornsby, You are correct about that. I guess I was getting a little defensive.

To PianoWorld,

I think is was brilliant of you to move this thread to a new forum. At first, I thought you completely removed it but after a minute of poking around found it again. Thanks.

I would also like to point out that the message from Eldon today at 12:53 is pretty offensive. I used to participate in some forums hosted by a major newspaper but left because they inevitably degenerated into mud slinging. I sincerely hope that these forums will remain more or less civil.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704869 - 09/13/01 06:33 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Offline


Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5530
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (originally N...
Thanks Bernard,

I can understand people's need to lash out at a time like this but I will not tolerate any more of our members lashing out at each other. We all got along pretty well before this tragic event.

I don't want to have to ban anyone from the forums, but I will if I have to.

Frank B.
Piano World
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#704870 - 09/13/01 06:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
There will be renewed interest in geography in the coming days. Apparently all trekking tours are cancelled along the Afghan-Pakistan
border mountains. Which doesn't mean that this is a particularly boring part of the world.
Europe based rumours indicate that there may
be more action coming than most of us could ever handle.

Including their most valued [part-time] inhabitants.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#704871 - 09/13/01 08:25 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:


You are therefore willing to take the same line of thinking as these terrorists. For them it is war, and their argument is no different from what you have just used to justify the killing of innocent civilians.[/b]


No, Bernard. With sincerest respect, I have to point out that you are severely mistaken. "War" is waged by people who are trained and are officially the representatives of a recognized national government. In other words, soldiers, not civilians. In "war," the deaths of civilians occur, but are not the main objective.

Yet this is exactly what these beasts did - this was not "collateral damage" - these people *targeted* innocent civilians. Moreover, they were doing the bidding of not only their own terrorist groups, but of supportive governments that hide their actions behind the terrorists. Again, with respect, I find it mind-boggling that people cannot recognize this distinction. And I refuse to let go unchallenged the assertion that arguments made by people demanding heavy military strikes against both the terrorists *and* their supporters are morally equivalent to the arguments of the terrorists. Bernard, this is simply absurd.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:

Before I am mis-interpretted (I have just all the foregoing messages and see how pique has been grossly mis-read), let me state that I abhor terrorism and now that the shock is wearing off, feel sick and sad and very angry. But I also believe that as a human being and an American, it is my duty, as it is of our leaders, to use our heads in deciding how and at whom to retaliate. We have a golden opportunity to galvanize the entire world in an effort to combat terrorism at this time... [/b]


I apologize if I'm mistaken, but I don't believe I've misinterpreted you - or pique earlier, for that matter. And I agree with you, we must use our heads and make sure that we attack the right targets. Venting our rage and frustration aside, I don't believe anyone really thinks that we should simply go in and indiscriminately nuke the Middle East out of existence. I think we all want to locate the appropriate targets. But then, Bernard, we will strike them. And almost assuredly, innocent civilians will die. When that happens, I will be sad for the innocents, but I will accept it as the inevitable product of a war we did not start and are now forced to fight. I certainly will not consider it the moral equivalent of the acts of the terrorists. And no one else should, either.

Dwain

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#704872 - 09/13/01 09:08 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
this will probably be the last post i can afford this evening as i am getting ready to leave town.

thank you, frank, for creating a more appropriate setting for this conversation and for reasserting the requirement for civility.

and thank you, bernard, for speaking up. i was starting to feel a bit alone out there in piano world. (whoever knew that pianists were such a conservative group?)

i heard a very interesting interview on montana public radio this evening, with a terrorism expert at our local university who has written several books on this subject.

the gist of what he said is that there are two schools of thought on how to deal with terrorists: 1. is militarily, with a heavy blow of force, because that is "all these people understand." or 2. politically, by understanding and undercutting the social support that they have.

he gave a couple of examples to illustrate these schools of thought. the israeli army is among the most sophisticated, effective, and highly trained armies in the world when it comes to dealing with terrorism, and yet the decades they have spent using military might with surgical skill has not ended terrorism in their country. to the contrary, they live in a perpetual state of war, state of seige, with terrorist acts exploding around them almost daily. their failure proves that terrorism cannot be eradicated with military might. in fact, it may only serve to perpetuate it.

conversely, if you look at the weathermen, a radical terrorist group that was active in the usa in the late 60s and early 70s, they disappeared as soon as the vietnam war ended. until that point, there was social support for them. but once the war was over, they could not sustain themselves, as it was only the anti-war sentiment that made it possible for them to survive as an organization. there has to be a larger social cause or sentiment that supports a terrorist group or they can't recruit members or survive.

so, says this expert, the key to eradicating terrorism is understanding its social underpinnings and then removing those social underpinnings.

he says the first step is for us to ask this question: why were 18 men willing to give up their lives for this cause? why is it that there are networks of thousands of followers who are willing to do the same? what beliefs or social or political conditions feed the social support for this movement?

unless you answer those questions accurately, you have not arrived at the root of terrorism. and you cannot kill that root unless you understand it--the sentiments of the larger social fabric the terrorist operates in.

what are those sentiments and why do those societies have them? and what can we do about that?

that line of questioning is the route to ending terrorism. military action is just a feel-good measure that satisfies our need for vengeance. but it doesn't work. the israelis have proven that.

interestingly, he did say this doesn't mean we shouldn't use military action, that it is understandable that people demand it and we are "entitled" to it. but we have to understand that it is ultimately ineffective.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704873 - 09/13/01 09:15 PM Re: On a day like this.........
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Innocent people will die if war is declared. There is no getting around it. If the master-mind of this entire operation told you that you could take him out right now, but would first have to kill a child he is useing as a human shield to get to him, wound you? I would say yes. As sad as it is, innocent people will have to die in order to get to the main man, becuase hes too much of a coward to come out and take his punishment like a man. He would rather hide behind innocent people. Lifes like that and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. Its very sad, but it happens. If we let the terrorists live on, the terrorism will never end, resulting in even more innocent lives being lost for no reason.

GOD BLESS AMERICA[/b]
_________________________
For off-topic discussion, please feel free to visit www.coffee-room.com

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#704874 - 09/13/01 09:50 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Pique wrote earlier today:

the news reports i am watching and listening to are the new york times, the washington post, the boston globe, cnn, msnbc--all on the web. on television i've spent long hours watching nbc and pbs. on the radio i've been listening to npr/bbc radio.[/b]

The sources that are quoted above form the heart of the media support network for the liberal mind with National Propoganda Radio being at the head of the list. The difference between a staunch conservative like me and someone like Pique as a highly developed "touchy feely" liberal is that I will regularly and frequently monitor sources like NPR, the Post , the Times, MSNBC & NBC (never the Clinton News Network -- I was one of their biggest fans until they finally drove me away somewhere early into Clinton's second term) and other liberal media resources just to hear the distorted perspectives. A liberal like Pique sticks to peer reinforcement only and would never think of reading the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times, the National Review, listeni to Rush Limbaugh, watch Fox News or otherwise seek out and read nationally syndicated columnists like Thomas Sowell, William Safire, Peggy Noonan, George Will, etc. With her media choices above, Pique has been overdosing on the liberal party line and no amount of detox posts by Forum folks here will change this perspective without some other balance in her life. My guess is that she has also surrounded herself with liberal academia types as well (whoops -- "liberal academia" would be a redundant phrase).

To understand the liberal mind is a feat completely beyond my grasp. They have absolutely no in-depth understanding of cause and effect relationships. There are only vain repetitions of theories that have been discredited, disproved and disavowed, yet they keep on pushing them. It's a shame that Pique has spent so much time promulgating some of these views in this forum at a time when Americans are hurting and want words of encouragement and plans of action that will get desirable results. Come to think of it, I believe a lot of the liberal leanings in other areas -- including education -- are rapidly wearing thin with most Americans. This tragic event may serve as a wake-up call to take this country back from well meaning but totally misguided individuals that have placed our freedoms and future in such peril.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704875 - 09/13/01 10:10 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Dwain Lee,

 Quote:
"War" is waged by people who are trained and are officially the representatives of a recognized national government.

This sounds like symantecs. I will believe anyone who tells me he/she has declared war against me regardless who declares it.


 Quote:
In "war," the deaths of civilians occur, but are not the main objective.

Good point, I agree. However, from reading some posts here I get the sense that some people consider this glibbly. While it is true there are unintended consequences of war, if we knowingly drop bombs on an area where there are many civilians, I do not condone this.


 Quote:
... but of supportive governments that hide their actions behind the terrorists. Again, with respect, I find it mind-boggling that people cannot recognize this distinction.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I do recognize the distinction. I also believe we should go after the leadership of any state that harbors terrorists with the full support of the global community, which I think we will have. But the manner in which we analyze and go after each individual state is very important or we will accomplish nothing but inflaming the passions of the followers of that state/leader. Inflaming the passions of people who only react from a fanatic standpoint is only asking for more trouble.


 Quote:
And I refuse to let go unchallenged the assertion that arguments made by people demanding heavy military strikes against both the terrorists *and* their supporters are morally equivalent to the arguments of the terrorists. Bernard, this is simply absurd.

Again, I agree with you but you are saying something different than CrashTest's comment that I was responding to: "If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war." Stated that way, it sounds to me pretty much the way terrorists reason. CrashTest was saying "innocent" lives, you are saying "terrorists" and "their "supporters". I do not consider either of these "innocent".

 Quote:
But then, Bernard, we will strike them. And almost assuredly, innocent civilians will die. When that happens, I will be sad for the innocents, but I will accept it as the inevitable product of a war ...

And strike we should if it is deemed appropriate, but I will not accept the killing of innocent civilians as an inevitable product of war. I think we are obliged to do our utmost to avoid this.


jgoo,

 Quote:
If the master-mind of this entire operation told you that you could take him out right now, but would first have to kill a child he is useing as a human shield to get to him, wound you? I would say yes.

I would say never and sincerely hope you never find yourself in that position. To kill the innocent child would be to hand the terrorist a victory. No, no, no, I would wait and make him pay without having to compromise my moral integrity.

I am not against military might, per se, if after reasoned and informed thought it is deemed the most appropriate and effective response for a certain group, individual or state, my support will be there. But maybe, in some cases there is an alternative that would better serve the ends we are looking for. Again, I find much in pique's latest note that sounds worth listening to. Military might is the easy way and I think if we are going to win this war we are going to need to work much harder than that.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704876 - 09/13/01 10:19 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Dave Andrews,

With all due respect, if you think that by listening to Rush Limbaugh and reading William Saffire you're not getting a distorted perspective, then I have to say, in your own words,

"Dave has been overdosing on the conservative party line and no amount of detox posts by Forum folks here will change this perspective without some other balance in his life."
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704877 - 09/13/01 10:36 PM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
I guess no one's reading my posts. \:\(

I can't believe we're arguing politics at a time like this.
_________________________
wgh

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#704878 - 09/13/01 10:40 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
To all: I'm gone for the evening, do have as nice an evening as you possibly can given the circumstances. It is my sincerest hope and wish that this horror and catastrophe can be vidicated, when all is said and done, by the realization of a safer world for everyone.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704879 - 09/13/01 10:51 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Bernard wrote:

With all due respect, if you think that by listening to Rush Limbaugh and reading William Saffire you're not getting a distorted perspective, then I have to say, in your own words,

"Dave has been overdosing on the conservative party line and no amount of detox posts by Forum folks here will change this perspective without some other balance in his life." [/b]

So Bernard, other than being identified as a liberal which you apparently wanted everybody to do based on your retort, which part of the following paragraph in my original post did you not understand?

" I will regularly and frequently monitor sources like NPR, the Post , the Times, MSNBC & NBC ... and other liberal media resources just to hear the distorted perspectives."

Liberal knee-jerk reactions make such a fabulously rich contribution to the American fabric, you know what I mean there sport? There was a wonderful book written a number of years ago entitled "The Closing of the American Mind" by Alan Bloom. Mr. Bloom is not a conservative, but he certainly had your number. Perhaps if you knew as much about conservative viewpoints as I do about liberal viewpoints, you could break out of being a caricature and enter the world of the thinking and reasoning populace.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704880 - 09/13/01 11:30 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Random thoughts:

I would NEVER sign a petition like that. No, pacificism will get us no where with an enemy that's intent on destroying us, starting with civilians, beloved landmarks and our own president first! Have you spent any time listening to their rhetoric? They HATE us. We have tolerated different viewpoints up to the point that we now have cells of terrorists in our own country!

The only way to make the extremists stop is to stop their money flow, which ultimately comes from a few terrorist states. Most of the suicide bombers are actually paupers. I'm not sure even bin Laden would be able to fund this operation by himself. Follow the money! When we convince the ones holding the money (be it Khadafi, Saddam, the Talliban or whoever) that is no longer in their best interest to fund the extremists, they will stop doing it for the survival of their nation.

So, how do we convince them to stop funding terrorism. You chose diplomacy and pacificism. That, unfortunately, will lead to more terrorism. Ghandi himself said the Jews shouldn't resist Hitler! What kind of policy is that when you're working with a different mindset?

Yes. They think different. They think that if they kill themselves and take out their enemies in doing it in an act of martyrdom during Jihad, or Holy War, they will go to a paradise, where 70 virgins await them. Think I'm kidding? I am not! According to an LA Times article from August 25, 2001:

"But Abou El Fadl, who researched the issue for a book on Islamic rebellions, said the Arabic in another source of the story, the Koran, could be read as either promising martyrs the company of virgins or blessed, purified souls.

According to Abou El Fadl, many militant Islamic leaders have embraced the virgin interpretation. He said they include Sayyid Qutb, the spiritual head of the Muslim Brotherhood who was executed by the Egyptian government in the 1960s, members of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and Saudi militant Osama Bin Laden."

Non-extremist Muslims not only need to condemn terrorism, they need to fix this thinking. (The Koran is against suicide.) As long as they are pleasing their God with the promise of their paradise and their hatred running so deep, nothing will change. These are their values.

BTW, I was (am?) a journalist for 14 years and it is indeed the most LIBERAL group of people I have ever met, especially the people making the decisions about news coverage. I have often been the only conservative in a news room (even during a short stint at the LA Times). This is not a myth!

enough for now,
penny

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#704881 - 09/13/01 11:44 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
I lost the quote, but someone here essentially said fighting back against terrorism doesn't work and gave the example of Israel. I firmly believe Israel wouldn't even exist today if it didn't fight back! And let's remember, it is El Al, Israel's airline, that is never hijacked because of its armed marshalls aboard its planes.

I salute the brave passengers of the plane that went down in nowhere Pennsylvania. They are true heroes. And they were NOT pacificists!
penny

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#704882 - 09/14/01 12:08 AM Re: On a day like this.........
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Bernard:

I can see your reasoning behind not wanting the child to die. However, my grandmother (who was a part of the U.S. Airforce and a daughter of a U.S. military man through and after WW2) has taught me from a very early age in life that innocent people have to be taken out if it is necessary to get to the main man. Getting the main man will prevent any other innocent lives from being lost. In my example, a child. One dead child (although it would still be very very sad) is a lot better than hundreds and maybe even thousands of other dead innocent people as well, whether they be children, men, women, seinors, babies, mothers, father, brothers, sisters, etc. As for it giving the terrorist a victory, so what. That will be made up for when he spends the rest of eternity burning in hell. (Very sorry if this last statement has offended anyone). I do not mean any dis-respect by saying this at all, and however heated things on this particular forum may get, it should not effect us in any way in the other forums here at piano world.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: jgoo ]
_________________________
For off-topic discussion, please feel free to visit www.coffee-room.com

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#704883 - 09/14/01 12:25 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
This is a great article from TIME magazine. If you are of this opinion, which it appears most are.
TIME article
_________________________
Josh

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#704884 - 09/14/01 01:40 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
dave,

why are you bringing your divisive partisan politics into this? your knee-jerk intolerance doesn't do you credit, doesn't serve this discussion, and is, i feel, especially inappropriate during this time of crisis.

labels like liberal and conservative, used in a pejorative way, really say nothing. and you really know nothing at all about my politics beyond the tiny fragment i've revealed here. nor do you know what i do or don't read.

i live in one of the most conservative states in the nation, and have been here since 1983. i have many friends here, some of whom even voted for probably the dumbest governor ever elected to public office, and i am a reporter, which means that i must be able to listen carefully to the views of others without rushing to judgment. i also have to read all kinds of publications, from all kinds of viewpoints, and admit their perspective into my world view, so that i can report on those views in a fair and accurate manner.

if i didn't have the capacity to do this, i wouldn't be here participating in this discussion; i'd be over at the utne cafe, where i expect everyone would just virtually nod their head at whatever i say.

if the education, experience, and fair-minded approach i've described makes me a liberal, go ahead and call it whatever you want. simplify your world, so you don't have to try to figure out anything too complicated or that doesn't fit a preconceived notion.

i really believe that it is time for people to stop their divisiveness and come together to seek common solutions. we can only do that by listening to each other.

in my community, though we have many different points of view, we also have tolerant, respectful, civil, and even loving conversations and exchanges of perspective across the kitchen table.

we are first a community. i have allowed those with views different than mine to influence my thinking, and i'd like to think i have also influenced theirs from time to time. i have learned a great deal from people who don't think like me at all, and i bet they would willingly say the same.

it is too bad we can't talk across the virtual kitchen table here without a few people indulging in mud slinging.

time for bed. and time for me to exit this forum for a while. i'm glad we are going to have a national day of remembrance tomorrow. i know i need to participate and i hope it will help heal the ideological rift that has been hurting our country a very long time.

have a great weekend, all of you.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704885 - 09/14/01 03:51 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Pique wrote:

why are you bringing your divisive partisan politics into this? your knee-jerk intolerance doesn't do you credit, doesn't serve this discussion, and is, i feel, especially inappropriate during this time of crisis. [/b]

Using key words and phrases like "knee-jerk", "intolerance", "doesn't do you credit" and "inappropriate" underscores my point. Liberals always assume a stance of self-righteous indignance and resort to name calling when identified for what they are. Why are you so unwilling to take the liberal mantle upon yourself when your posts have been a steady dissemination of the standard liberal line here, Pique?

labels like liberal and conservative, used in a pejorative way, really say nothing. and you really know nothing at all about my politics beyond the tiny fragment i've revealed here. nor do you know what i do or don't read.[/b]

The "tiny fragment"? You mean the multitude of liberal feel good thoughts quoting numerous liberal sources that you've posted here has been a ruse and you're really an open minded thinker? You're as transparent as glass, Pique. It's far too late to run for cover.

And as for your resource library, you're the one that told us what you read. Would you care to amend the list?

I started to go through your previous messages in this thread to more or less confront you with your own words, but the simple fact is, there were so many of them that it would make this already far too long post even longer. Despite that, here are a couple quick reminders:

pique on 9/12/01 at 7:25 PM:

we've got a bunch of foolhardy hawks in office, and it scares me. there's only one moderate in the bunch, and nobody seems to be listening to him.[/b]

So who exactly introduced "partisan politics" and divisiveness here, Pique? "Foolhardy"? Pardon me, but your slip is showing. BTW, had you been listening to any other news sources such as Fox News, you would have heard the steady parade of military and security experts as well as former high ranking officials laying the blame for our intelligence failures at the feet of the Clinton Administration. You remember him, don't you? Mr. Political Expediency?

pique on 9/13/01 at 2:00 AM:

i did go practice the piano tonight. it was very soothing to have an outlet for all this feeling. i played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died.[/b]

It's nice to know that you are here for us just like Nero was there for Rome. Most of the rest of us would rather pray for the wisdom of our leaders, pray for those touched by loss, and prepare ourselves for and participate in some more meaningful response rather than to play the piano as a "gesture of love". I'm sure the victims heard you, though. Yipes.

pique on 9/13/01 at 9:08 PM:

"(whoever knew that pianists were such a conservative group?)"[/b]

Pejoratives? Divisive partisan politics? Gee, I thought that was supposed to be my domain?

Now back to my main point, which is that you liberals have no sense of the cause and effect relationship:

pique on 9/13/01 at 9:08 PM:

" military action is just a feel-good measure that satisfies our need for vengeance. but it doesn't work. the israelis have proven that."

interestingly, he did say this doesn't mean we shouldn't use military action, that it is understandable that people demand it and we are "entitled" to it. but we have to understand that it is ultimately ineffective.[/b]

Two words: Mohamar Khadafi

When you get through whining about the confrontational aspect of my posts and deal with the fact that your liberal bias, your liberal sources and your liberal remedies have completely missed the mark as far as an effective response to this mayhem, perhaps you will have time to look into some other reliable sources of both information and strategy. Books recommended by the library of the Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania would be an excellent place to start for developing a better sense of cause and effect relationships and may lead you to a realization of just exactly what the effective solutions are to our current predicament. The liberal drivel that you spout which has at its heart a loathing of the military is only going to be an exercise in futility both here and in the real world that we live in. While the collateral damage of killing innocents is certainly regretable, your "let's work it out peacefully" strategy will most assuredly cost substantially more innocent lives in the days, weeks, months and years to come. These are tough decisions that require a much larger view beyond the immediate. Since most liberals can't see anything beyond the ends of their noses, I wouldn't expect you to understand.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704886 - 09/14/01 06:07 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dave,
what makes you think that your viewpoint is more objective (more correct?) than Piques? What makes you so confident in the rightfulness of your viewpoint that you so self-righteously smash somebody elses to pieces?

Both and the rest,
To me both are biased - Dave AND Pique.
Everyone who takes an extreme standpoint, be it liberal or conservative or something else, is per definitionem biased and in my opinion on one eye blind !
None of you has looked any further than the tip of your nose up to now.
If you had done it would surely have dawned on you that:

a) what has happened in the US on Tuesday has meanwhile become an issue for the entire civilised world in general and the NATO countries in particular.

b) therefore, the decision of what steps will be taken in order to fight this kind of terrorism is NOT made by America only.

c) the task of today is to show the terrorists and the countries which sponsered or otherwise helped them that the western (read democratic) world is a UNITY and as such totally against terrorism of any kind.

d)no politician etc. at this point in time knows how to react and what way of dealing with such vermin might be the best. It MIGHT turn out that a military reaction is appropriate. BUT: it also MIGHT turn out that it is not. We have to wait and have to learn more of the FACTS before we can decide about what to do.

I do agree with parts of what all of you have said and I disagree with other parts.
No opinion is more right (or wrong) than another and lashing out at each other in the most aggressive terms does, to my understanding, not help in any way.
However, I render discussions very useful and helpful but only if we remain tolerant and don't start to become insulting or polemic. The main reason why discussions exist is foremost to exchange opinions.
Remember: "Freedom is also always the freedom of those who think differently."(Rosa Luxemburg)

And Dave,
what's wrong with piano playing to soothe oneself? If it helps Pique in this situation I find that absolutely OK and unoffending. But comparing her with Nero...I think words fail me here!

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#704887 - 09/14/01 06:11 AM Re: On a day like this.........
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
I am in Eastern Europe, and I have been through this tragedy. I was in my home working Tuesday afternoon when a friend called and told me what happened. There is no way to describe how I felt. It just wasn't what had happened, I was alone here and had no one to reach out to. I got on the Internet to try to find out what happened and the more I learned the worse it got, and I was alone.

About an hour after I found out about it my doorbell rang. When I opened the door there was an older man standing there. Although I didn't know him, I had seen him walking, and we had waved to each other in passing. He could not speak a word of English, but he handed me a piece of paper that said in English, “I want to express my condolences to you, your family, and to all Americans, for the tragedy you have suffered. I am so sorry”. He shook my hand and left. There were 5 more people I didn't know personally that came to my house Tuesday evening. Some could speak a little English some couldn't. Several had tears in their eyes. Between answering the door, I was deluged with phone calls all with the same message. I was not alone, and America is not alone.

Since Tuesday I have received over 25 faxes and emails from Germany, Italy, France, Czech Republic, Romania, Korea, and China. I received a fax from the mayor of a small village here, it was signed by all the police and firemen of the village, it said “ Our village is grieving for all the Americans that lost their lives from this senseless act, and especially the brave rescue workers of NYC that died helping their fellow man”.

Yesterday I talked on the phone to a lady that used to be our neighbor in Southern Indiana. They had a daughter the same age as my daughter, they went to school together, and she was at our house a lot. Tuesday morning this girl called her mother on her cell phone and said that she was at work and there was an explosion in the building. She didn't know what had happened and her mother would probably hear it on the news, but not to worry she was ok. This girl worked in the WTC, and she wasn't ok, there has been no word from her since.

This was a young innocent girl that loved life and was so excited about working in NYC. Every time I see pictures of that building collapsing I see her face.

I also see the face of the man that killed her. This is the face of a slimy b*****d crouched in the desert eating camel dung, This person is sub human and has no regard for life. I think that not just 94% of Americans see this face, but 94% of the world see it as I do.

I am deeply angered and offended when someone tries painting over this picture and putting the blame on Americans or American organizations. These people are not just anti-American, they are anti-world.

If their beliefs are so strong, I suggest that Pique and Bernard quit hiding in the seclusion and safety of the Internet, and go stand on any street corner in NYC and shout their message. I guarantee that they will get their a** stomped in short order.

lb

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#704888 - 09/14/01 06:23 AM Re: On a day like this.........
magnezium Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Singapore
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
I also see the face of the man that killed her. This is the face of a slimy b*****d crouched in the desert eating camel dung, This person is sub human and has no regard for life. I think that not just 94% of Americans see this face, but 94% of the world see it as I do.
[/b]


definitely... and a great portion of the world would like to see America take some decisive action against this man, and we will support America to the fullest possible in such a situation...

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#704889 - 09/14/01 08:30 AM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
A war has always been an opportunity for America to make some place in the world better, after we eliminate or subdue the evil enemies who have brought us into a conflict. We have failed in this a number of times, but I am not as interested in those past failures at this time or in this post. If we are about to pursue a protracted war, as seems likely, it is best we determine ahead of time what objectives we will accept as achievable, with clear military objectives, so that the war can be won. We do not want another Vietnam. We especially need to understand the people we are about to do battle with.

The gist of David Pryce-Jones' article, Why They Hate Us http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pryce-jones100101.shtml
is that we are dealing with a people who feel so ashamed of themselves for their political and economic situation that they must lash out against all those who have done better than themselves. This is only part of it, but Pryce-Jones' comments about the usual run of traditional relations between ruler and ruled in the Arab world are also part of it. But some of the rest of it should be mentioned as well.

Though they comprise some 247 distinct tribes, the Arabs are among the most racially pure group on the planet. Very few other peoples have mingled their blood with theirs for many thousands of years. They have lived in relative isolation in an inhospitable land where there was no practical place for a police force of any kind, therefore even before Islam institutionalized revenge and lifted suicide during a Jihad to the level of a sacred blessing, these were common sentiments among them, for the Arab needed these to preserve his freedom and his possessions. And the Arab feels most free when he is moving about the vastness of his realm from oasis to trading post.

Essentially the Arabs are a wild and pre-eminently nomadic people who feel most uncomfortable in closed in urban situations and not very much better on farms or practicing agriculture of any kind. Arabs are among the most genuinely hospitable and gracious people I have ever known. They can be staunch friends and terrible enemies as nobody is a better liar or more treacherous. These are generalities, but to a greater or lesser extent they are supported by many people (close friends of mine) who have lived and worked among them for many years. One thing is clear, as it was even during the Crusades; no one who has lengthy contact with the Arabs has ever been left unaffected; certain cultural traits, words and concepts seem to rub off and become part of the home culture; the zero, coffee, playing cards, perfume, silk, dates, and much more.

Their religion is integral to the problem posed by considering an Arab as your enemy. Precise in trifles, but strict in observance, Islam seems easier than many other religious practices. In its mildest or most mystical forms, Islam is capable of inspiring a sense of great serenity and beauty. Unfortunately it also has a fanatical and totalitarian side. Islam was spread by the sword and they are not about to give up this option without a bloody fight. Someone of my acquaintance who lived in Iraq and Iran before they were forced to leave by the Ayatollah, remarked to me that the Moslems seemed to feel themselves of the dispossessed; if they weren't born among the Jews (their brothers only in a sense, I'll explain in a minute) or were unable to be Christians (because they have a deep suspicion that Christians are really polytheists who worship three gods, and maybe more), then they can profess themselves Moslems and remain content with their portion. Giving alms to beggars is an essential requirement of Islam. Since I have been doing this for years, I guess I am Moslem myself at least in this sense.

Believing things that are unsupportable seems to be part of all religions, but for a Moslem, these beliefs must be as absolute as the edges between sun and shade on the desert. Any deviation means going to hell. There is far less concept of forgiveness among them than among other groups as it just doesn't seem reasonable to forgive the unforgivable. This tends to give the Moslem Arabs a rather severe and serious cast. Interestingly, the Prophet seems to have detested music. Despite this, there is a musical tradition among the Arabs far older than Islam, that manages to survive where it is not suppressed.

Obviously the Arabs must have some fun. And they do. Their chief pleasures are food, not drink as alcohol is forbidden among strict Moslems, sex and war, not necessarily in that order. Of course to make a living they prefer trading. They have a looser concept of private property than we do, but they definitely believe in capitalism and have always had an uneasy relationship with socialism as a concept.

All this being said, terrorism is far more likely among Arabs than direct conflict with them in the sense of formal standing armies, as the need for treachery among themselves to settle scores goes back many thousands of years, long before the rise of Islam.

One of the things that we must do is to be aware that in seeking retribution for what was done and what may still be done to us, we may be walking into a trap. We are probably not ever going to be able to trust any of them for too long without accepting certain realities among themselves.

There has been, going back to the time of the Prophet, political splits among Moslems. Islam is idiomatic not monolithic, as all religions in fact are. More to the point, the moderate Moslems have been living in fear and conflict with those who wish to impose a more totalitarian form on Arab societies. There is a conflict among them set up by contact with the rest of the world and the customs of outsiders. Civilizations are in conflict.

One very important question we need to ask ourselves if we really decide to go to war with these people is whether we want to change the Arab culture permanently and forever by force, making it inconceivable to them that the rest of the world would ever again tolerate the spreading of Islam by the sword!!! In the process we would force them to accept a democracy like ours where someone like pique or Bernard could have their opinions aired without fear of being killed for them. This is a concept that is even foreign to many central American societies, although it is changing.

Then there's the matter of Israel. Strange that the Jews are referred to as Semitic people when very few of them are anywhere as Semitic as any Arab. The word Semite derives from being descended from the patriarch Shem. Caucasians are said to be descended from the patriarch Japeth and the black races from the patriarch Ham. These were the sons of Noah. The yellow races of the Far East in Asia are believed to be the descendants of Cain who killed his brother Abel and was driven out from among the rest of humanity, "east of Eden." This is all mysterious and still unproved but there are researchers looking into all the archeological evidence and it is beyond the purposes of this post to pursue these matters further, except concerning the Jews who currently comprise the majority in Israel and elsewhere. To the Arab, these people are Europeans, not Semites. They have been away too long. They have mixed with other races. Before 1948, the Palestinians, whether Jew, Christian or Moslem, got along well. They appreciated being free of the Turk and anticipated being free of the British and French as well. The Arab never minded trading with foreigners, they just didn't like having them camp out among them for long periods of time and imposing their foreign rules on them. This is the prime beef with Israel. The Arabs look upon these people as nothing like their racial brothers, the Jews who have always lived with them, at least those who can with relative ease trace themselves back to Isaac, their younger brother. To reiterate, to the Arabs, these Israeli Jews are just other European outsiders who disturbed the Arab wandering pattern of life, closed off and invaded their land, and have threatened to take one of their holiest sites from them, the Temple Mount, one of the most mysterious pieces of real estate on earth. To the Arabs, the state of Israel is as much a blight on their "portion" as the Kingdom of Jerusalem was during the middle ages. Christian? Jew? Not to the Arab. These people are neither, as they are not truly Semitic and they wish they would go back where they came from and stop treating them like dirt. Unfortunately the Israelis can't go back where they came from and like it or not, Jerusalem and its surroundings have always been considered the legitimate homeland of the Jews by the rest of the world. And the rest of the world is not particularly interested in what happens to three and a half million displaced Palestinian Arabs whom they suppose can jolly well find plenty of space in the vastness of Araby to remove to. It's just not that simple.

This is the quagmire we are being drawn into. In a mysterious way, the terrorists are making us "feel their pain." The message is probably even stranger. They recognize what they have done. They know and expect that revenge will follow. They know that it must be severe. They expect it. But behind it I believe is the desire to have us eventually correct the problems they cannot correct for themselves, as long as we are willing to leave them to their portion after we are through. This seems oddly to be the big problem for this present century. Are we as much up to the fight as we must be up to the compassion?

And remember folks, let's go easy on pique, Bernard and others who may disagree with us. This is after all still America. This is the land where the First Amendment, as Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "allows the fool the right to drool in public." And contrary to political correctness, which is NOT a true or honorable American concept, It also allows the bystander to say who they regard as a fool. Certainly I have been the fool from time to time and I am grateful that America has allowed me this right. The fight we are about to enter with the Arab world, or a significant part of it, will determine how these American ideas of human rights (young concepts as world history goes) which we so often take for granted, may be planted among the oldest people on the planet. Remember, the innocents among them are awaiting liberation and not just from Israel, but from some of their own leaders, both political and religious. Are we up to it?
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704890 - 09/14/01 08:42 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Nici wrote:

Everyone who takes an extreme standpoint, be it liberal or conservative or something else, is per definitionem biased and in my opinion on one eye blind ! [/b]

My view is neither extreme nor blind. On the other hand, people that cannot make a connection between cause and effect relationships or in your case, reach a conclusion in the face of empirical evidence are out to lunch. The liberals in the US continue to prove the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get different results.

None of you has looked any further than the tip of your nose up to now. [/b]

Your credibility has just tanked, Nici, with a totally ill-informed judgement.

the decision of what steps will be taken in order to fight this kind of terrorism is NOT made by America only. [/b]

Wrong. Building an alliance may be a wonderful show of unity, it may even be prudent (although the security issues suggest otherwise) but if nobody else joins us, we will complete the task on our own and take note of the cowards and muddled thinkers who could not reach a right conclusion.

no politician etc. at this point in time knows how to react and what way of dealing with such vermin might be the best. It MIGHT turn out that a military reaction is appropriate. BUT: it also MIGHT turn out that it is not. We have to wait and have to learn more of the FACTS before we can decide about what to do. [/b]

When disciplining a child, the response should be immediate so that there is no possible disconnect in their minds between the cause and effect relationship. The intensity and the timing was what made our actions against Khadafi successful. You can be sure that nothing will be done until there has been sufficient fact finding. You can also be sure that the remedy will include the full force of our military might.

No opinion is more right (or wrong) than another [/b]

This is where your muddled thinking loses me entirely. It is impossible for any one of us to straighten out people that think a logic flow is spilling coffee inside a computer. Time for you to listen more and speak less, Nici. The "I'm okay, you're okay" mentality is at the heart of many of the problems we find ourselves in at this time.

And Dave,
what's wrong with piano playing to soothe oneself? If it helps Pique in this situation I find that absolutely OK and unoffending. But comparing her with Nero...I think words fail me here! [/b]

You're words failing you may be the only good news in your entire post. If Pique wants to find solace in playing the piano, that's fine. If she wants to post on a public forum that she "played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died" in the face of all that suffering, her gesture is as useless as her suggested remedies. When she tells me that she volunteered to play in a public memorial service in their memory, I will recant. Until then, the analogy is quite apt.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704891 - 09/14/01 10:09 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
dave, your self-righteousness and hostility are breathtaking. however did you come to have all the answers and know the one, sole truth? your posts are truly among the most offensive i have ever seen on any forum. the particulars are beneath a response.

david burton, thank you for the background on the arab world. it is very interesting, although there is a bit more to be said on the tribal thing: some jews are of european extraction and they are called ashkenazim. but many other jews are in fact semitic, and do look like arabs. the ashkenazim in palestine is a modern phenomenon, but there are indeed semitic jews indigenous to that part of the world.

last night, on the local commercial television station, they read aloud viewer comments from this (conservative) community. after spending (too much) time on this forum i was truly amazed to hear that at least half of those viewer comments sounded like this one: "we brought this on ourselves." and not a rah rah flag-waving comment among them.

this from people who voted for judy martz! it restores my faith in humanity.

maybe the world doesn't think like piano world after all. hm, i think i'll take a step outside and see. ;\) 'bye for now.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704892 - 09/14/01 10:37 AM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I apologize to pique for my flippant tea-time remark but reiterate that I spoke of difference and strength which pique translated as subhuman and murder. When I was young, I too felt that all people were the same. As a teacher I learned that each of my students was different and needed to be treated differently. As much as I loved my students, there was strength in my dealings with them just as there is with my children.

The manifestation of that strength differs as those with whom I deal differ. David Burton has reinforced how these people differ in his post. Regardless of B and N's defense of pique, I believe pique distorted what I said more than I misinterpreted what pique said.

I had hoped to apologize directly to pique via email but the address is not available here. Neither is Bernard's. Probably a vast left wing conspiracy of silence. (just kidding, you two. ;\) )
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704893 - 09/14/01 11:01 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
oh, dear, i am still reading. :rolleyes:

i'm going to try to use the quotations function, but no guarantees how it will come out:

 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
I apologize to pique for my flippant tea-time remark but reiterate that I spoke of difference and strength which pique translated as subhuman and murder. When I was young, I too felt that all people were the same. As a teacher I learned that each of my students was different and needed to be treated differently. As much as I loved my students, there was strength in my dealings with them just as there is with my children.)[/b]


well, dt, then i misunderstood your comment about differences. of course the kind of differences you speak of exist. i guess i thought that went without saying. what i thought i heard you saying was that somehow some of us are different from others in a *fundamental* way. and that is what i was disagreeing with. we are all the same in that we all try to find happiness, we all do the best we can, we all need love, we all feel hurt, etc. in otherwords, in our humanity we are the same. and it is from that basis of belief that we have compassion and mutual respect, despite sometimes deep differences.

I believe pique distorted what I said more than I misinterpreted what pique said.[/b][/QUOTE]

sorry for the misunderstanding. i apologize.

I had hoped to apologize directly to pique via email but the address is not available here. Neither is Bernard's. Probably a vast left wing conspiracy of silence. (just kidding, you two. ;\) )[/b][/QUOTE]

very funny, dt ;\) i think the tenor of the conversation here more than reinforces my decision to not post my email. the last thing i need is to perpetuate these discussions by email as well!

thanks for the apology. accepted and welcomed.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704894 - 09/14/01 11:25 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Brad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Lexington, KY
"Pique" --

This is why so many people on this forum are upset with your attitude:

"last night, on the local commercial television station, they read aloud viewer comments from this (conservative) community. after spending (too much) time on this forum i was truly amazed to hear that at least half of those viewer comments sounded like this one: "we brought this on ourselves." and not a rah rah flag-waving comment among them.

this from people who voted for judy martz! it restores my faith in humanity."

Your approval is directed at those who criticise our country and assert that America is somehow at fault and your disapproval is directed at the "flag waivers" who support his country.

These are your words. I can only assume this is your true belief. If so, it is your right to write them and my right to comment that your views are despicable in this time of great tragedy, suffering, and loss.

God bless America,

Brad

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#704895 - 09/14/01 12:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
there is more than one way to support one's country, brad. from my point of view, i AM supporting my country. i can't say that strongly enough. criticism is called for. self-examination as a nation is called for. to deny that is not my idea of supporting my country.

to say that we have to unite at the expense of examining the truth makes no sense to me. we can be united AND examine our role in the world. they are NOT mutually exclusive.

and how does self-examination make us more vulnerable to terrorists anyway? how does having a debate about foreign policy make us more vulnerable? it doesn't. this is a fear-mongering myth. rather, thoughtful discussion might lead to actions that solve the problem rather than make it worse.

we clearly have extremely different views on this. i did not imagine, when i first posted my views, that it would upset people here so much, and didn't post with the intention to upset anyone. at first, i thought that what i posted was what most people would think. it is certainly how most people i know think.

when i discovered that wasn't so, i had hoped to have an exchange of views with people who believe very differently than i do. but i see that they (you) cannot hear me. i'll quit trying, as i've already had my say, and repeating it clearly won't make any difference.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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