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#704806 - 09/11/01 01:46 PM On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
...we can't talk about pianos.

My condolences to to all my American friends.
We're with you in prayer and thought.
God bless America.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704807 - 09/11/01 02:21 PM Re: On a day like this.........
AndrewG Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2506
Loc: Denver, Colorado
America as a nation suffers inmeasurably today. This is the saddest day of my life. I was on the top observations deck of WTC three times. All my precious memories turned sad today...

God bless America!

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#704808 - 09/11/01 03:21 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Tuesday, September 11, 2001
VICIOUS BLACK TUESDAY!
A Day That Will Live In Infamy!

A great pause has descended on the country, stunned silence, everyone views the repeat footage of the defining point of the new century, a full sized jetliner filmed as it deliberately crashes into what WAS the World Trade Center, over and over again, as if this was a special effect out of some high tech disaster movie. But no, everyone knows that this was a REAL disaster. The obvious was felt by everyone in stunned silence; tens of thousands of people had just died and everyone knew it. Many whispered the horrible word WAR under their breaths.

Would more piano music have changed history? Would those whose hearts had been deliberately turned black with hate by whatever motivates such acts of premeditated malice so deep that the perpetrators were willing to KILL THEMSELVES in order to achieve this horrific notoriety, would those hearts been turned from such acts by exposure to more great and glorious piano music? Obviously we'll never know.

They too were the brainwashed victims in this tragedy. Those who used them as their tools were motivated by IDEAS and my friends it is those IDEAS which need exposure and once exposed to the light of reason must be presented to the world community of mankind as NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE among civilized men! If not, then we are doomed to descend farther into barbarism so great that no matter whether we play our music in public or in private, the Dark Age surrounding us will make our efforts even more futile than they have already become.

We have just had a wake up call. There are those out there with sufficient means and resolve to try to bring our civilization down to THEIR level. What shall we do?

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704809 - 09/11/01 07:43 PM Re: On a day like this.........
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Today is a dark day in American History. What could possibly motivate anyone to do such a thing, to wound an entire country as deeply as this? To start a prelude to a possible war. Piano was just about the farthes thing from my mind today but I did sit down to play "My Country is of Thee" and I at that point, I just about cried. I nearly cried when I first heard about this as well. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ALL OF ITS PEOPLE. GOD BLESS THE INNOCENT VICTIMS OF THIS TERRABLE ACT OF TERRORISM AND GOD BLESS ALL OF THOSE BRAVE HEROIC SOULS WHO WENT INTO THE BURNING BUILDINGS BEOFRE THEY COLLAPSED TO RESCUE SURVIVOURS. MAY GOD BE WITH THEM. AMEN
_________________________
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#704810 - 09/11/01 07:52 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Prayers are good.Giving blood is good.

1000's of dead people aren't.

Perhaps it's time to trade Bin Laden for the
'best' America has. The time of B.S. is over.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704811 - 09/11/01 08:39 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5598
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Norbert,
Thank you for your thoughts from our neighbors up north.
I have to agree with you, it's time to put a stop to this madness.
_________________________
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#704812 - 09/11/01 10:19 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
Hug your kids, folks. Hug your kids and call your mothers.

The world mourns a senseless tragedy.

God Bless America.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

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#704813 - 09/12/01 01:31 AM Re: On a day like this.........
magnezium Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Singapore
it's been terrible... my family watched in horror as CNN repeatedly flashed footage of the plane crashing into the WTC and the whole thing coming down as people were screaming and crying and running all over... if it even shook us, halfway around the world, to such an extent, i can't imagine how the Americans must be feeling... my sympathies to all those affected...


From a letter our Prime Minister wrote to President Bush:

'I am shocked and deeply saddened to learn of the tragic loss of lives by the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington... I would like to convey my deepest condolences to you, the families of all the bereaved and the people and government of the United States of America... We join you and others in strongly comdemning these acts of terrorism...'

god bless America...

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#704814 - 09/12/01 02:49 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Ruth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 32
Loc: Germany
Dear all on Piano Forum

Hearing about this terrible act of violence
yesterday afternoon has deeply shocked me
and my thoughts are with you.
All politicians here in Germany expressed their deep sympathy for the american people and assured their solidarity with the United States.
I keep listening to the radio, where they also ask people in the street about what they think and feel. Everybody is shocked and condemns this terroristic act. But also a lot of concern regarding the consequences is expressed and people appeal to the US to first investigate and find out who was responsible, before striking out on suspicion. I guess that in Germany we fear that there will be an escalation that will encompass the whole world. Maybe that's what the terrorists want.
I can imagine what you feel now and your wish to stop the responsible persons for good, but please think of a sensible and calculated way to do this.
There will be help from Europe in finding the
wire-pullers and hopefully all democratic countries in the world will see this as a chance to hold together. But lets not forget that a great part of people who are forced to live under certain regimes or in awful living conditions are no terrorists and do not believe in terrorism as a way to push through their ideas.
Sorry for the prayer, but I (and most of the German people) just think of nothing else but this event, the victims and the consequences for all of us.
Take care.
Ruth

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#704815 - 09/12/01 03:28 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Anonymous
Unregistered


Everything came to a halt in Germany yesterday afternoon when the news reached our country.
I've seen this disaster yesterday on a big, cinema-like screen in our office and it seemed so surreal. I just couldn't beleive that this was really happening - it was a tremendous shock...all these innocent people who lost their lives within seconds.
This horrible act of violence is not only a disaster for America but for the entire civilized and democratic world.

My thoughts are with all of you.

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#704816 - 09/12/01 10:31 AM Re: On a day like this.........
EricL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 140
Loc: Upstate NY
I went through a lot of emotions yesterday, from disbelief, denial, to acceptance, anger and grief. What really made my blood boil was to watch film footage of some Palestinians dancing on the streets and passing out candies to 'celebrate' the tragedies that came upon this great nation. I always have sympathy for the Palestinians and I have never seen Americans dancing on the streets when innocent Palestinians were killed in the Middle East. A cloud of hatred came over me. I wanted to get my hands on the throats of those responsible for these hideous acts. I have never hated anybody in my life and I didn't think I was capable of this feeling. I cried while playing the piano. Music had calmed me down and returned me to my former self.

I totally agree with Ruth, we need to exercise control and good judgement, find out who the guilty party is and punish those who are responsible. We should not condemn an entire nation or an entire race just because of the despicable acts of a few. No matter what, I will stand behind my government and my people.

Eric

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#704817 - 09/12/01 01:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
while it is true that we must discover the responsible parties and bring them to justice, it is also true that our own federal government--in the form of the FAA, the CIA, the U.S. Congress, and the FBI--did not do their jobs. nor did the airlines or the airports.

there have been warnings for years that this type of attack would be almost inevitable unless we took measures to prevent it. the congress took only the weakest of measures, and did not implement the recommendations that were made by investigators. our intelligence agencies should have known that this was coming, and the hijackers should never have been able to get through airport security with knives! numerous investigations have shown that airport security has been sorely inadequate for quite some time, and, obviously, nobody did anything about it.

while yes, terrorists are to blame, we also have to look at the failure of our own system.

i think it would also behoove the u.s. to reexamine our foreign policy and what it is we are doing that might cause anyone to rejoice at our losses. how many people realize that it was the CIA that taught Bin Laden how to be a terrorist, when it was the Soviet Union that we trained him to terrorize? why is it OK that our CIA train and orchestrate terrorism abroad? we don't like it when it happens here--will we now open our eyes to what has been happening elsewhere in the world for decades, sometimes at our own instigation? many people around the world are saying under their breath, "now you know how it feels!"

the people who died in yesterday's tragedy did not have to die. the world doesn't have to be this way. lower manhattan looked like beirut yesterday. it should not have looked like any place--this should never happen anywhere, not just here. lives everywhere are precious, not just those in the u.s.a.

i lived in nyc for many years, spent much of yesterday in fear for friends and family, watched the news reports with tears streaming down my face for the loss of those thousands of innocent lives. my husband's brother will probably be scarred for life by the scenes he witnessed as he escaped from the World Financial Center yesterday morning.

i am very angry. but not just at terrorists.

i will try to practice tonight. perhaps i'll be lucky enough to be restored by it. for now i feel paralyzed by shock.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704818 - 09/12/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
go to this link to read about how we were failed by our government and the airline industry:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/national/12AVIA.html
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704819 - 09/12/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rich D. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
My wife and I are on vacation. We first heard about these terrible events as we were traveling by car from Quebec to the US. Like everyone, we were shocked by what happened and our faith shaken. What evil there is in the world! We live in Arlington Virginia, and drive by the Pentagon every day to go to work. I cannot imagine what it must have been like there when the plane hit. The tragedy in NYC is beyond my comprehension. Watching it on TV is becoming more difficult. Lets hope our leaders will truely lead us now, though I'm afraid fingerpointing has already begun. We're still not home, but I wish we were. Our vacation is over.

Rich
_________________________
Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

"Life is like a piano....what you get out of it depends on how you play it"
Anonymous


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#704820 - 09/12/01 02:48 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Yesterday, cowardly rats disguised as human terrorists brought their form of warfare onto U.S. soil. It was a despicable act, and I mourn for all those Americans who lost loved ones.

Did all of our government agencies fail us? I think probably not. To paraphrase JFK - If a man is willing to give up his life in order to take yours, defense is almost impossible. You cannot reason with a crazy man. Witness that the FBI is only talking about 7 suspects (although I'm sure there will be more)who actually perpetrated this crime and were willing to die for their misplaced beliefs. And the latest reports are that they used plastic ( or some composite) knives that were undetectable by xray. I don't blame us, I blame the terrorists.

We are a free, open society, and they took advantage of that. Today many are calling for a diminishing of our freedoms for promises of security. To acheive an adequate level of security while maintaining our Bill of Rights is going to be a daunting task. But it shall be done.

One strange emotion that I have felt that I thought would be totally foreign to this tradgedy is pride. When I think of the New York firefighters charging up the tower steps to rescue the victims, only to become victims themselves, I am proud of their actions. When you think of all the policemen who may have perished while performing their duty, I am proud of their actions. If the latest news reports are accurate and the passengers of the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania actually had the courage to fight armed hijackers, I take pride in knowing these were Americans. And while watching the latest video of the WTC site on TV last night, I saw that someone had tied an American flag to what was left of a traffic light pole. There was a heavy coating of grey dust on the flag, but it still fluttered in the breeze against a backdrop of unimaginable carnage, while rescue workers unceasingly searched for survivors. I was proud of that flag and the men and women working in the strange glow of the searchlights behind it.

I feel certain that in these darkest of days, the American spirit and character shall not be broken by the scum of the Third World.

God bless America.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly ]
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#704821 - 09/12/01 05:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
And while watching the latest video of the WTC site on TV last night, I saw that someone had tied an American flag to what was left of a traffic light pole. There was a heavy coating of grey dust on the flag, but it still fluttered in the breeze against a backdrop of unimaginable carnage, while rescue workers unceasingly searched for survivors. I was proud of that flag and the men and women working in the strange glow of the searchlights behind it.

[/b]


Someone else said almost the exact same thing, using these words:

Oh say, can you see
By the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we held
at the twilight's last gleaming,

Whose broad stripes and bright stars
Through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched,
Were so gallantly streaming?

And the rockets' red glare,
The bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night
That our flag was still there.

Oh say, does that star-spangled banner
yet wave,
O'er the land of the free, and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen throughout the mists of the deep
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes
What is that which the breeze o'er the towering steep
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream.
`Tis the Star-Spangled Banner, Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

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#704822 - 09/12/01 05:46 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I'm back, couldn't come to work yesterday, the trains weren't running. It's very SURREAL here and hard to believe when not actually watching TV, walking down the street and seeing the smoke plumes, or listening to the radio, it's just so unbelievable. I have a great view of Manhattan from my Brooklyn roof and the view from there yesterday morning I have to admit, was shocking: just a great billowing cloud coming from where the WTC used to be. Being aware of all the lives that have been lost there was too much to sort out. I was in shock most of the day and still feel pretty much the same. The city is so strange today. Most stores around where I work (21st & Bway) are closed, there is very little traffic, few people, the smell of burned rubber--so unreal.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704823 - 09/12/01 06:32 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Pardon me, and I realize that this forum may not be the most appropriate place for these kinds of discussions, but damn it, better than 10,000 people were killed yesterday and like it or not A STATE OF WAR EXISTS. The post that was submitted by pique illustrates many ideas that many of us have been feeling, but they may not be appropriate under these NEW conditions.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
while it is true that we must discover the responsible parties and bring them to justice, it is also true that our own federal government--in the form of the FAA, the CIA, the U.S. Congress, and the FBI--did not do their jobs. nor did the airlines or the airports. [/b]


Maybe they did, but so what? Obviously changes will now be made so that a relative security can be restored so that we can go on with our lives, war or no war. The reasons nothing was done is that there is always too much discussion in a democracy about every policy: our government can't usually get away with making draconian decisions even to protect their citizens. Times may now be changing.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
there have been warnings for years that this type of attack would be almost inevitable unless we took measures to prevent it. the congress took only the weakest of measures, and did not implement the recommendations that were made by investigators. our intelligence agencies should have known that this was coming, and the hijackers should never have been able to get through airport security with knives! numerous investigations have shown that airport security has been sorely inadequate for quite some time, and, obviously, nobody did anything about it.[/b]


Hey, I usually wear a Swiss Army knife on my keys and I did last time I went on a plane. Probably I've worn one on a plane for the last time, but again, this is all hindsight. Things have changed now simply because someone has succeeded in bringing war home to us.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
while yes, terrorists are to blame, we also have to look at the failure of our own system. [/b]


I think it's time to start thinking of things differently now. WE ARE AT WAR. What is clear is that we have to define who the enemies are and do something about it. Those who did this were willing to GIVE UP THEIR LIVES. You cannot defend against people who are willing to die for what they believe. The enemy is extremism, they are willing to do anything to accomplish their ends. We have dealt with people like this before. They are not just ordinary criminals: they are FANATICS.

"A Fanatic is someone who can't change their mind and won't change the subject." Winston Churchill

It isn't about religion, it may be about politics, but it certainly is about EXTREMISTS who are willing to GIVE UP THEIR LIVES believing they will be transported to a paradise of 10,000 virgins. What a pipedream! Obviously these people are INSANE. If your dog goes mad, despite how much you may love it, you put it out of its misery. It's time to kill these mad dogs.

"Wars are waged to convince the losers that their view of the world is mistaken." Carroll Quigley

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i think it would also behoove the u.s. to reexamine our foreign policy and what it is we are doing that might cause anyone to rejoice at our losses. how many people realize that it was the CIA that taught Bin Laden how to be a terrorist, when it was the Soviet Union that we trained him to terrorize? why is it OK that our CIA train and orchestrate terrorism abroad? we don't like it when it happens here--will we now open our eyes to what has been happening elsewhere in the world for decades, sometimes at our own instigation? many people around the world are saying under their breath, "now you know how it feels!" [/b]


And THIS is why I decided to respond. This kind of reasoning makes me FURIOUS! Apparently you know NOTHING about real politics in the real world. Best you and the lot of you idealists learned real quick. We USE people, and we aren't the only nation that uses people on the international scheme of things. We did not want Communism with a big C to take over the middle east and YES it IS about OIL. So now they have decided to bite the hand that fed them. Again I say, it's time to kill the mad dog. It would BEHOOVE you and the rest of the idealists out there to get with reality. We are now at war and when at war the game is win or loose. We must win. These people must be destroyed. Civilization is at stake, unless of course you'd rather live in a Moslem or some other totalitarian state.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
the people who died in yesterday's tragedy did not have to die. the world doesn't have to be this way. lower manhattan looked like beirut yesterday. it should not have looked like any place--this should never happen anywhere, not just here. lives everywhere are precious, not just those in the u.s.a. [/b]


No, of course not, but nothing we say or do will bring them back or restore what has been taken. What we need to think about now is how to make anyone who wants to do this to us again think twice about ever contemplating such an action ever again. Yesterday was the single worst day in America in terms of loss of life since the Battle of Antetum in 1863! The military response should be of epic proportions: nothing else will do.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i lived in nyc for many years, spent much of yesterday in fear for friends and family, watched the news reports with tears streaming down my face for the loss of those thousands of innocent lives. my husband's brother will probably be scarred for life by the scenes he witnessed as he escaped from the World Financial Center yesterday morning. [/b]


I too used to live in NYC and worked downtown. It is eerie to think that I was in those buildings many times and that they are no longer there. I may have lost friends in NYC yesterday, some I knew who worked in those buildings, people I've known for 20 years. I can't call into NYC to find out. I don't know if they are alive or dead.

 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i am very angry. but not just at terrorists. [/b]


Well, since we still live in a democracy I'll exercise my right to suggest that any anger against anyone else at this point is misplaced. Now, there's only the terrorists and those who have given them shelter. There is NO WAY to guarantee that innocent civilians will not be harmed. INNOCENT CIVILIANS HAVE ALREADY BEEN HARMED. There also needs to be a worldwide crusade against fanaticism of all kinds, especially the varieties that are willing to GIVE UP THEIR OWN LIVES for their cause.

And I regret to even think this, but I'm very very angry: as for the Palestinians cheering on the streets, they've lost any support I ever gave them. Let the Israelis drive them off what land they have and take the whole place for themselves!

And as for music, try the Revolutionary Etude, the final movement of the Moonlight Sonata or some other furious piece in a minor key that suggests the spirit of these times.

There's A Time for Peace
And A Time For War
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704824 - 09/12/01 07:25 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
well, dave, you succeeded in really ****ing me off. i prefer to think of myself as a humanitarian, though i don't think there is anything wrong with being an idealist.

all the flag-waving boosterism in the world won't change what happened yesterday, either.

i would rather see this country take realistic and introspective stock of its own role in the world and its own responsibilities than to have us rashly and dangerously pursue an unwise retaliation that will only increase hostility and resentment against us, and cost more innocent lives. we've got a bunch of foolhardy hawks in office, and it scares me. there's only one moderate in the bunch, and nobody seems to be listening to him.

already arab-americans are being persecuted in the streets, being turned into scapegoats. that's the kind of results you get with the idea that we have to have a "war" mentality now. all your sentiments do is stir up a fire-breathing blood lust, that is easily misdirected. it is shameful.

i think you were more correct in your first sentence, that this forum is no place for creating controversy. therefore, i cease further comment on this issue as of now, and, if so moved, will take it elsewhere.

with all due respect,
pk
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704825 - 09/12/01 07:46 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5598
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
At this time of utter horror and grief it is understandable that we are angry, upset, sad, outraged, and more.
I may not agree with everything everyone has been saying on our forums, but one of our most basic freedoms is the freedom of speech.

I look at all of our members as part of our community and part of the larger community that makes up our great country and other free countries around the world.
All I ask is that you do not allow these tragic events to cause you to lash out at your fellow members.

Feel free to continue to post your thoughts and feelings on our forums for as long as you feel the need. Just please remember to treat each other with the same respect I always expected from our members during our happier posts about pianos.

This catastrophe has affected all of us and we must stand together.

Frank B.
Piano World
_________________________
- Frank B.
Founder / Host
www.PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
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Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Hammond XK-3, Hammond A-100, Estey 1895 Pump Organ
-------------------------
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And please invite everyone you know to join our piano forums!
Coming to Maine? We're in Parsonsfield (southwest) let's get together!


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#704826 - 09/12/01 08:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
thank you, frank. i appreciate your sentiments and very much agree.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704827 - 09/12/01 09:55 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
I looked over what pique wrote and what I wrote in answer. I have no personal disrespect for her for what she says. This is still America and I will passionately defend anyone's right to say whatever they think even if I completely disagree. But I won't retract what I said about the unrealistic views of people who have no realistic experience with intelligence gathering or of how real business must sometimes be conducted around the world and yes I am saying that I do have this experience. I'll say no more. If anyone thinks that I view the present situation or what must be done with any glee, then I am apprizing them now that I do not. There are times when severe matters require severe solutions. I'll refrain from making any statements that could be construed as attacking anyone personally, however I reserve the right to try to improve everyone's consciousness with more realistic information about the world we all live in.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has announced a revised estimate of fatalities in the attack on the World Trade Center at 20,000+! The mayor of New York has ordered 16,000 body bags. I reiterate, this is war!

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: David Burton ]
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704828 - 09/13/01 12:54 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Hi all,

And now, to break up the discussion with a sweet anecdote:

In 1997, I traveled to the former Soviet Union, to the middle of nowhere, Russia, as a Christian missionary. My church had (and still has) a "sister church" relationship with the small churches of Saransk, which sprouted the year before. Despite the years of the Cold War, I found the Russians warm and hospitable and I cried my eyes out when I left. I kept in touch with my interpreter, who at the time was a college student. She's now a professional interpreter for a Beligium-owned brewery based in her home town (isn't capitalism great?). Despite many of the older Russian's pessimism and impatience about their current conditions, I found the young people hopeful and willing to sacrifice their generation for a better future that would allow them to earn a living in proportion to their work output. Oh, there were (still are) plenty of problems. My interpreter's uncle, who owned a small photo developing shop, "disappeared" for a couple of days after refusing to pay the local mafia for "protection." (He reappeared a couple of days later, bruised. He then shut down his store).

I continue to communicate with the woman I call my sister primarily by email. But on Tuesday night, I got a call at 10:15 p.m. First the pregnant pause as the international connection was made, then her precious voice. She wanted to know how I was (shell-shocked). And she especially wanted me and everyone to know that not only she but everyone she knows is deeply saddened by what has happened. She said, "We feel very bad for America. We take it personal."

We not only need to unite as a country. Freedom and democracy-loving people need to unite everywhere. It's time to take a stand for what is right.

penny

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Penny ]

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#704829 - 09/13/01 01:53 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
this is war mongering. i don't know where you get your figures, dave. they just announced on the news that no one has announced any estimates of how many people died in the WTC.

as for defending our civilized society, how civilized is a society that shoots out the windows of u.s. mosques?

and what are your mysterious credentials that give you the authority to say that hypocrisy is good foreign policy? there are terrorism experts all over the news saying that a retaliation could be the worst possible choice we could make, that it would only breed more terrorism.
_________________________
piqué

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#704830 - 09/13/01 02:00 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
thanks for your story, penny. i'm sure that is true that people in the free world stand in solidarity with us.

there have been such incredible stories of selflessness. tonight on NPR a woman called in to tell of how a total stranger gave her her car keys so she could drive home to texas from california. the stranger said, "i can walk to work. i don't need my car."

i did go practice the piano tonight. it was very soothing to have an outlet for all this feeling. i played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died.

i think it would be very helpful for us to have a national day of mourning, and very soon.
_________________________
piqué

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#704831 - 09/13/01 03:21 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
this is war mongering. i don't know where you get your figures, dave. they just announced on the news that no one has announced any estimates of how many people died in the WTC.

as for defending our civilized society, how civilized is a society that shoots out the windows of u.s. mosques?

and what are your mysterious credentials that give you the authority to say that hypocrisy is good foreign policy? there are terrorism experts all over the news saying that a retaliation could be the worst possible choice we could make, that it would only breed more terrorism.[/b]


I don't know what news you're watching, but it sure isn't here in America - or you're hearing what you want to hear, no offense. ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News, the Drudge Report, Newsmax, WorldNetDaily, and the Associated Press are all reporting the death toll is going to top 30,000. And on all of these news agencies, the terrorist experts I've heard interviewed all agree that the terrorists should have been blown to bits years ago, and that what is needed now is to hunt them down and kill them. I have yet to hear a single one say that retaliation will only breed more terrorism. In fact, it was pointed out on several programs that retailiation is *exactly* what is needed, and they cite the following as proof that retaliation works - back in the early 80s when Kahdafi was bombing discos in West Germany where American soldiers frequented, we sent bombers over and blew up his palaces, killing many of his relatives, including his infant granddaughter - we focused square in on Khadafi and hit him where it hurt him the most - and the result of this retaliation was that Mohamar Khadafi pretty much ended his terrorist activities as a result, and hasn't been a problem since.

I don't want to make you mad, or get into an argument with you. But you simply aren't dealing with the facts. This is not just a criminal act. It is an act of war. As soon as we have identified those responsible for this, our government should swiftly and without warning launch a full scale attack on the guilty, and kill every last one of them standing right there in their shoes. And if a country or a government is aiding or protecting the guilty, we should level the place.

And before you tell me I am a warmonger who is out of step with America, all those news agencies I listed are also reporting that 94% of Americans agree right down the line with me. The entire country is demanding the guilty pay, and pay dearly. Enlistments in the military are up 4 fold, even retired military and those who have already served in the past are asking to be allowed to rejoin the military in huge numbers.

War was declared when the first plane hit the first tower. Countries all over the world have lined up on the side of America. Even China and Russia are in favor of swift and massive retaliation. And there *will* be a massive military attack on those who are guilty. The death toll in the WTC alone is over 30,000. This doesn't count the victims on the planes, or the nearly 200 who died at the Pentagon.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#704832 - 09/13/01 03:50 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
I watched this tragedy unfold from start to present. I watched live the 110 story towers plummet to the earth. And I watched the Palestinians on the West Bank celebrating upon receiving news of the thousands upon thousands of American CIVILIAN lives that had just been lost.

Anyone that is not angered by this is not human, and certainly not American. Even people abroad are horrified and sickened by this. There is simply no justification for such an act.

This has gone on too long. So far our dealings with people such as bin Laden have been somewhat of slaps on the wrist. I see this as more than ample reason to exterminate this man and his followers. It's very much time to act. Anyone who could possibly remain indifferent, let alone celebratesuch blatant disregard for human life cannot be human themselves. The time for diplomacy with these people is over, and it is time - no it is PAST time to rid ourselves of these creatures. I am completely in favor of Bush's vow to make no distinction between the perpetrators and those who harbor them. I have no doubt that the U.S. government will do what is necessary in retaliating and dealing with these wastes of oxygen. I see no alternative.

I value and respect the opinions of others, but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them. Agree or no, these are MY opinions, and I ask you to do the same for me.

GOD BLESS AMERICA
_________________________
Josh

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#704833 - 09/13/01 04:12 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
By the way pique, I suppose we should have just let Pearl Harbor go without retaliation too? Our current situation is just as much an act of war. If we do nothing we appear weak and soft, and become targets. I wish our nation to be bullied no longer. If there were no laws that punished theft, why would people just stop stealing? It's time to bring an iron fist down and tell terrorists everywhere we mean business. You mess with the bull you get the horns.

GOD BLESS AMERICA
_________________________
Josh

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#704834 - 09/13/01 09:06 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Hank Drake Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
This was forwarded to me so I thought I'd do my part and forward it
on hoping that it will uplift you in this time of tragedy...


TRIBUTE TO AMERICA


The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

Its subject is "America: The Good Neighbor"

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
> remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of
his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as
the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy
were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts
to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the
Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Doctrine pumped billions of dollars
into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over
the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them?
Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk
about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake of 1989.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb
their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#704835 - 09/13/01 09:30 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Israeli intelligence has said that the Iraqi government funded the attacks coordinated by bin Laden. Big surprise here, if true.

It's time to go after the terrorist cells in a long, drawn out counterterrorist offensive. It's also time to smash the command and control of countries that have offered assistance to the terrorists, and have used them as unofficial vehicles to do the bidding that they're unable, or too cowardly, to do openly. We need to retaliate against these nations in measures exponentially greater than the damage that their assistance caused on our soil, literally destroying the framework of the nation, if necessary. This is the only lesson that animals like this will understand. You take my eye, I'll take your life. You kill one of us, we'll kill ten of you. You kill 12,000 of us, and we'll erase you from the planet. This is how you end state-sponsored terrorism.

You think that's tough talk? Tell it to the survivors of those who were murdered in the World Trade Center. Tell it to the other people and their families around the country who go to work every day, wondering if they're next.

Dwain

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#704836 - 09/13/01 09:37 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
I am in total agreement, Dwain. These people are unable to be negotiated with, and it's about time we crack down in ways that will make anyone think twice about doing this to us again.
_________________________
Josh

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#704837 - 09/13/01 09:52 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Ideas we far away can do:

Give blood.

Pray.

Raise the flag, half-mast if you can.

Support our troops when called upon.

Check in on the families of FBI agents and police officers everywhere. They're working overtime. Cook a meal. Help with child care.

Buy U.S. stocks when the market opens.


On that last point, I reprint an email from an investment userlist to which I subscribe:


"Don't let the terrorist win. They want to disrupt our economy and cause
panic in our markets. When the markets open tomorrow or on Monday BUY.

As we all know, there are only good and bad men and women in this world. Bad
men did this act. It was not the nationality of the perpetrators that caused
this disaster, but the fact that they were evil. This said I call on all in
the world. Including those of the Arab nations to buy US stocks when the
market opens. Since they have no respect for human life the killing of the
people in the World Trade Center was only a means to an end and meant nothing
to them. What they want is to shake the American people and the U. S.
economy. We can thwart this plan when the markets open.

I therefore call on all peace loving people around the world to BUY when the
markets open.

Thanks,

Rich"

penny

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#704838 - 09/13/01 09:58 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
larry,
i don't want to get into an argument with you, either. but i do hold to my right to respectfully disagree, or to seek common ground.

the news reports i am watching and listening to are the new york times, the washington post, the boston globe, cnn, msnbc--all on the web. on television i've spent long hours watching nbc and pbs. on the radio i've been listening to npr/bbc radio.

it was about midnight last night that nbc announced that no one has calculated the number of deaths or is willing to make an estimate, the will only say "in the thousands."

if there are news reports saying it was 30,000 people, i'd have to say, as a journalist myself, that they are taking a wild guess and trying to sensationalize the news. nobody yet knows how many died, at least, as of last night. and since the last reports i heard from new york were that they may have to call off the search and rescue effort because of the dangers to the crews, i doubt very much they have new information this morning, though i haven't yet checked.

NPR and PBS have been broadcasting reports from Britain and those have included experts on terrorism who caution us that retaliation is a dangerous course of action. the broadcasts from abroad have repeatedly emphasized the failure of u.s. intelligence, for that matter, tom brokaw on nbc has repeatedly used the phrase "a stunning failure of u.s. intelligence." the broadcasts from britain have also included many experts who advise the u.s. to reexamine its foreign policy.

who is hearing only what they want to hear?

i have no doubt that most americans agree with you. it is a very upsetting time, and people are very emotional, including myself. i think even so, it is important to step back and think rationally and strategically about what the best course of action should be. colin powell seems to be the only member of the administration who is willing to do that, and is advising caution. and he is not getting much support, i understand.

i have no sympathy for the palestinians whatever, and didn't before they started dancing in the streets celebrating our agony. their behaviour is utterly repugnant to me. most of my family was instrumental in founding israel, and some played key roles in resettling the jews from the death camps after the holocaust. the tales of the devastation there are legend in my family. but most of us now just want peace. and the actions the u.s. should take should work towards that goal.

lives are sacred everywhere. not just in the u.s. and i cannot help but fear the pain and heartbreak we will cause other mothers, brothers, sisters, daughters in other parts of the world if we do not proceed with a true sense of justice, as opposed to hasty revenge. do we want to cause more agony and suffering? is that justice?

Here is an excerpt from a news editorial i read this morning:

> So, the question is which civilians will be unlucky enough to be in the way of
> the U.S. bombs and missiles that might be unleashed. The last time the U.S.
> responded to terrorism, the attack on its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in
> 1998, it was innocents in the Sudan and Afghanistan who were in the way. We
> were told that time around they hit only military targets, though the target in
> the Sudan turned out to be a pharmaceutical factory.
>
> As I monitored television during the day, the talk of retaliation was in the
> air; in the voices of some of the national-security "experts" there was a
> hunger for retaliation. Even the journalists couldn't resist; speculating on a
> military strike that might come, Peter Jennings of ABC News said that "the
> response is going to have to be massive" if it is to be effective.
>
> Let us not forget that a "massive response" will kill people, and if the
> pattern of past U.S. actions holds, it will kill innocents. Innocent people,
> just like the ones in the towers in New York and the ones on the airplanes that
> were hijacked. To borrow from President Bush, "mother and fathers, friends and
> neighbors" will surely die in a massive response.
>
> If we are truly going to claim to be decent people, our tears must flow not
> only for those of our own country. People are people, and grief that is limited
> to those within a specific political boundary denies the humanity of others.
>
> And if we are to be decent people, we all must demand of our government -- the
> government that a great man of peace, Martin Luther King Jr., once described
> as "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" -- that the insanity stop
> here.
>
> Mr. Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at
> Austin.
_________________________
piqué

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#704839 - 09/13/01 10:13 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Why are we arguing about how many people may be dead? Is it really going to change our response if only a couple hundred die versus tens of thousands. The terrorists targeted our landmarks -- our president even! If the numbers of dead are small, then we are very blessed indeed. But that doesn't change the facts that 12 to 30 terrorists boarded commercial jets, commandeered them into civilian areas and targeted our president!

BTW, only 80-something bodies have been found YET. This just in from the wires, according to the companies that used to be in the WTC, more than 4,000 employees are missing. And NBC reported that the K9 units are overwhelmed with the smell of human flesh (sorry for the graphic description).

penny

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#704840 - 09/13/01 10:25 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
it is wrong to broadcast numbers that have no basis in fact and serve only to inflame people even more. reporting that 4,000 people are unaccounted for is a very far cry from claiming that 30,000 people died! how are we to rely on our news sources for any information if we can't trust them to be accurate about something like this? perhaps our response won't be affected by this particular fact, but some other "fact" could make all the difference in the world.
_________________________
piqué

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#704841 - 09/13/01 10:57 AM Re: On a day like this.........
AndrewG Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2506
Loc: Denver, Colorado
My heart is still bleeding for the greatest country in the world. Someone mailed me this. I feel obligated to share with my piano friends here. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to do so on the forum. If not, Frank, delete my post.

--------------------------------------------
A little history about this article.
Sinclair wrote it in the early 80's


America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were breaking

down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and
never even get a thank you for the things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can
and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until
this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American
that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Stand proud, America

-Dave Reuss
Desktop Services

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#704842 - 09/13/01 11:27 AM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
Penny, I agree, the exact number surely is irrelevant when we're talking about terrorism within our own borders. The leveling of our national monuments with our own commercial airliners. Killing civilians without warning. All with the implicit message that we can do this at any time, and you can never be sure when it will happen again. How can it be possible to "sensationalize" these brutal attacks beyond what they already are?

pique, don't get me wrong. I am of a similar opinion that many of these monsters we deal with our of our own making, specifically thru lawless and unaccountable covert operations done in the interest of "national security." But now that the monster is here, in our own country, threatening our freedom, it's not a time to place blame. We must deal with it. I'm of the opinion that the best way to do this is by all of us presenting a united front behind our leaders in the interest of national strength. To do otherwise would be to weaken our national fortitude and is no doubt exactly what the terrorists want to have happen.

We all differ in political ideology, and last week these differences were very important to all of us in regards to our leadership and the direction of the country. This week we are all simply Americans! Americans who do not want our children to grow up blanketed in fear that they can be killed at any moment by random acts of terrorism.

For what it's worth. Hope you agree.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]
_________________________
wgh

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#704843 - 09/13/01 11:55 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i appreciate your post, wg, and the sentiments behind it. i would like to propose that we as a people and a nation are strong enough to admit complexity and ambiguity into our discussions and our view of the world without jeopardizing our position or our options.

i sense from what you are saying that the general feeling is that if we question ourselves, we weaken ourselves. my personal experience is just the opposite. self-questioning and the willingness to ask hard questions and look at complexity, admit ambiguity, is a sign of great stregnth. i think it strenghtens us as a people, and certainly leads to better choices.

if we refuse to do this because we don't want to be confused by the facts, we may be doomed to making some very bad choices. i fail to see how our nation, our people, are served by turning the world and our tragedy into black-and-white. seeing the shades of gray and facing them takes fortitude and integrity.

we still lack a lot of information. this isn't like pearl harbor--we don't really know who the enemy is. those planes did not have arab or japanese flags on their wings. it could be a situation that requires a great deal of diplomacy. there are recent reports that the terrorist cell may have originated from germany. are we going to bomb germany because they harbored these people?

have we also even considered the possibility that everyone who was ever involved in this scheme died in the crash? what if there is no one to retaliate against?

i believe that a strong america is one that is willing to examine its institutions and make them better. i love this country very much. there could be no one more typically american than i am, in the sense of loving liberty. i think it is very american to exercise one's right of free speech, to think independently, to contribute to the exchange and diversity of ideas. i do not see how we are served as a nation by all of us seeing the world exactly the same way, or by coercing those who think differently than we do into silence.

we can be completely united as a people, and yet have debate about how this tragedy should be viewed. one does not have to undercut the other. it is understood that, especially at this time, this nation is one family. do we want to be an open and healthy family, or a dysfunctional one? a healthy family allows its members to speak freely, even if that leads to disagreement. that doesn't mean we love each other any the less or don't "stand together."
_________________________
piqué

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#704844 - 09/13/01 12:41 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i just received and signed a petition addressing president bush. here is the text, which i think expresses my views more eloquently than i have:

"Dear Friends:
A great tragedy has befallen our nation. A catastrophe that leaves
none of our lives untouched. Many innocent lives were lost due to a
senseless act of terror and violence. Although this horrific event
may outrage many, and rightly so, it cannot be justified or corrected
through more violence. Another senseless act in retaliation will not
repair the damage done, nor bring back those who were lost. It will
only perpetuate a violent, barbaric cycle fueled by hatred and
ignorance. The perpetrators of these crimes must be caught and brought
to justice, but without the continued loss of innocent life.

President Bush,
We the undersigned encourage you to take responsible, peaceful action
in bringing the terrorists to justice. Please seriously consider the
negative ramifications of continued killing and perpetuating the cycle
of violence. Although many lives have already been lost, MANY MORE CAN
STILL BE SAVED."

if any of you would like to sign this petition, let me know and i'll send it to you.
_________________________
piqué

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#704845 - 09/13/01 12:52 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Brad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Lexington, KY
Remember, I'm the one who suggested a moderated forum . . .

"pique" --

How many dead, how much suffering is required for your outrage?

Your first reaction appears to be to blame America first .... NOTHING justifies the terroristic murder of 5,000 or more innocent civilians.

We know who the enemy is: militant islamic fundamentalists, including Bin Landen and others who are backed, supported, and funded by Syria, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, and others.

They want to kill us. They want to destroy our way of life, our freedom, and our democracy.

If they had the chance, they would kill you, your husband, and everyone in your family and then dance in the streets of Palestine.

WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK.

I regret the need to be brutal, but the lesson of September 11 is that this is no longer theory, this is no longer a commentary on NPR, this is no longer the editorial pages of the New York Times: IT CAN HAPPEN HERE.

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#704846 - 09/13/01 12:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Eldon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Illinois
Pique,
You've got your head up your *** sooo far it's pathetic. You KNOW what you can do with your petition!
_________________________
Sincerely,
Eldon

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#704847 - 09/13/01 01:32 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Unfortunately, many have the idea that the people who did this are like us deep down. THEY AREN'T. Examine their actions. Examine the reactions of multitudes across the Middle East. They are different through and through.

Pique, you are right though that we need to question ourselves. We need to question the way we've dealt with these people for the past 30 years and see that appeasement, compassion, and aid has done nothing but intensify their hatred for us. They understand strength. It's time that we finally show them some.

I suggest that you might want to read the article "Why They Hate Us"
http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pryce-jones100101.shtml
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704848 - 09/13/01 01:46 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Wow, I knew you journalists tended to be a little liberal, but you really scare me, Pique. I shutter to think what the last 55 years would have been like on this whole PLANET if the USA in 1941 was full of people like you! Unbelievable. Does the name Chamberlain mean anything to you? We have to stamp this out now, and it won't be easy or pretty. Freedom is very much at stake here. BTW, experts in Germany (according to CNN.com) claim that up to 1,000 Muslim extremists are living in Hamburg, raising money for the evildoers. To answer your question, NO we don't bomb Germany - we seek their cooperation, demand their cooperation if necessary, in handing these people over as potential accomplices. Wake up please.

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#704849 - 09/13/01 01:57 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Sorry pique, I won't be signing that petition. I do not believe in peace at any cost; rather, I believe that appeasement for peace only gurantees its loss. There are things worth fighting for.

Dwain

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#704850 - 09/13/01 02:00 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
BTW, here's a link to the original script of the 1973 Gordon Sinclair editorial http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/ccf/news/unique/am_text.html

Both of the above quotations are altered versions that have circulated on the internet for years. You can even find this on the Urban Legends Reference Pages
www. snopes2.com
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704851 - 09/13/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
America and its allies must deal their enemies NOW a card that would make all bombs and grenades of the second world war look like a 'handshake among good old pals'.
There is no middle ground left to pussyfoot.
_________________________
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#704852 - 09/13/01 02:22 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
brad,
when or where did i ever say i was not outraged? i think i said just the opposite.
and where did i say that this tragedy could ever be justified? you are not reading what i wrote.

eldon,
thanks for your erudite (not) commentary. i seem to remember there was a call here for civility and mutual respect. if there was to be a moderator on this forum they should remove your post for not following those guidelines. i've said nothing to attack you personally, and there is no call for you to make personal attacks. just because you don't agree with someone else's viewpoint doesn't make it ok for you to be insulting.

dt,
you are right, i believe that all human beings are basically the same. i disagree with you that others from different nations or belief systems are somehow less than human.

i've shared my views and said my peace. if there is anyone else here who agrees with me, they might be too afraid to speak up at this point, having seen the reception i've received. that is too bad. this is an open forum, and no one who expresses themselves in a respectful way should be silenced by personal attacks or condemnation.

and if no one else here agrees with me, and this forum is a good representative sampling of general public sentiment, which it may well be, i really fear for this country.

fortunately, i know i'm not alone.

thanks, piano world, for a forum to exercise my rights of free speech. perhaps there are those who aren't posting here who read what i wrote with more thoughtfulness than those who are posting here with bombast.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704853 - 09/13/01 02:37 PM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i sense from what you are saying that the general feeling is that if we question ourselves, we weaken ourselves.[/b]


No, really, I'm not saying that all. Believe me, no one is more "shades of grey" than me and I never accept what is presented to me (be it the media, our leaders, etc.) without questioning to get to the motives beneath. I resist being an unthinking member of the flock and I agree with you that normally that's a very good thing. I'm only suggesting to you that now is not the time for it. I abhor violence and war but I'm going to stand behind the President regardless of what comes in an effort to assist in the united front that the terrorists cannot break. My hope is that among a country of zealous supporters and jaded cynics and everyone in between, the circumstances of such clearly defined black-and-white evil can unite us in a strong sense of nationalist pride and a sense of purpose to ultimately restore our security.
_________________________
wgh

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#704854 - 09/13/01 03:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I believe I said that they are "different." Being different in ones core beliefs holds no implication of being less human. To make such an inference is very revealing.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704855 - 09/13/01 03:37 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
the implication of your post, DT, was that since they are different from us, it is ok to kill them. since human life is sacred, in my book, that is saying they are sub-human.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704856 - 09/13/01 03:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
If anybody could find a bag of tea in the rubble of the New York towers or the crashed airplanes: would he please come forward and serve it to those who appear to be in
"tea-time-discussion-mood" at this time?

If we get lucky, perhaps Bin Laden comes forward and personally likes to join in?

I'm told he may even offer his own 'point of
view' and 'valid'opinions. Anything goes.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704857 - 09/13/01 04:00 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
The point was that since they are different from you they need to be dealt with differently, with strength rather than appeasement. No value judgment was implied nor intended.

Since they killed innocent westerners without a second thought, they must have considered those people less than human, right? You hold life sacred and obviously consider that a sign of humanity. These people didn't. Ergo, they lack humanity. Q.E.D.

I didn't think it would happen but you've convinced me. These people and their supporters are less than human and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

By golly, it is tea time. See you tomorrow.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: DT ]
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704858 - 09/13/01 04:01 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
Pique, I will not be signing that petition. Just capturing and punishing the masterminds behind this is not a wise decision in my opinion. Making a martyr of these terrorist leaders is not a good idea, considering the numbers of fanatics that support and follow, even revere, these leaders. And I think we know who the enemy is. Many victims on the doomed planes identified the hijackers during cell phone calls to loved ones on the ground. That to me is rather convincing evidence. Fanatics care nothing for diplomacy or negotiating. They must be exterminated by means of severe retaliation. I respect your opinions Pique, and you have every right to them, but with all due respect I think you are living in a fantasy world if you think it can be that easy and bloodless. Time will tell, and I certainly hope these people are dealt with severely.

Josh
_________________________
Josh

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#704859 - 09/13/01 04:06 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Dear pique,

I think you mistake the galvanic anger of the American people for bombast. These are not mere words - these are the underpinnings for a sea change in how America views the world and how it responds to terrorism.

The President has stated that "this is the first war of the 21st century". I believe him. And in war, collateral damage of innocents is tolerated, but not encouraged by civilized societies. So I hope there are no more casulties except those that are absolutely necessary.

But these barbaric rats have cast the die. They have started this tragic cascade. They have sown the seeds, now let them reap the whirlwind.
_________________________
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#704860 - 09/13/01 04:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
I think I speak for most Americans when I say that action is needed, and it is needed soon. If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war. pacifism is not what we need, what we do need is intelligent militarism. God bless American, and the world for that matter.

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#704861 - 09/13/01 04:33 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
some of you seem to be casting me as a defender of the terrorists and their supporters. i don't understand how i could have conveyed that impression from what i have written. it certainly could not be further from the truth.

my concern is that those who AREN'T responsible for these atrocious acts would nevertheless pay for them with their lives, just because they are arabs or moslems, or live in a particular country (especially since there is no one particular country that is so far identified with these acts). the moslems in seattle are already paying. that is wrong. see this story:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134340989_mosques13m.html

this is no longer 1941. it is a very different world now. we have nuclear weapons in the wrong hands. we have an entire culture in certain parts of the world that fosters suicide missions. war is a very different enterprise now than it was back then; it sounds like some of you are feeling a lot of nostalgia for that time, but we don't live in that time.

as for the mistake we made in the Persian Gulf war of not eliminating the leaders who foment this kind of aggression, i actually agree with you. i count it as a major failing of Bush the First that he didn't wipe out the leader of Iraq. while he was going about the business of bombing innocents, why didn't he hit the target? what then was the point of all those lost lives?

as for what i have written here, i don't think i am being heard; and perhaps no one here is yet ready to hear what i have to say. i'm leaving town for a few days and won't be near the news or the computer, (thankfully!) i wish all of you well. i hope we all come through this stronger and more united. it is still incomprehensible to me, the load of grief.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


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#704862 - 09/13/01 04:51 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Pique,
According to a recent Norman Schwarzkopf sp?) statement, American and Allied pilots during the Gulf War took incredible pains to only hit military targets during the Gulf War. Even to the point of putting themselves at added risk. What exactly are you talking about? Something tells me that if we actually tried to take Baghdad with ground troops (to get Sadaam), you would have been screaming bloody murder. Talk about your civilian casualties! You can't have it both ways here, or anywhere.

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#704863 - 09/13/01 05:12 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I would quickly like to state that I agree with everything that pique has said so far. Alot of what I've seen on TV (ABC) is similar to what pique has mentioned. I listened to a former head of the CIA last evening stressing the enormous importance of how and when we strike back. He said it was the most important decision that will have to be made in a very long time. The result of hasty knee-jerk reaction could have devastating results for the world. The fact is we do not yet know who is behind these attacks this week. I also heard a women author of a book on terrorism saying to Charlie Rose that she believes Saddam Hussein is probably behind this attach. But we really don't know yet and when we find out I have no doubt the retaliation will be quick and hopefully, surgical. I am of the same mind as pique when it comes to killing innocent civilians--I'm totally opposed to it. For me there is never any circumstance to justify killing innocent civilians. When I have more time later, I'll add more comments.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704864 - 09/13/01 05:41 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Norbert wrote:
 Quote:
If we get lucky, perhaps Bin Laden comes forward and personally likes to join in? I'm told he may even offer his own 'point of view' and 'valid'opinions. Anything goes.


DT wrote:
 Quote:
By golly, it is tea time. See you tomorrow.


May I suggest that by stooping to denigrating sarcasms you show yourselves as harboring an attitude which is basically un-American? Faced with a differing opinion you find it necessary to 'put down' those who have a strong counter opinion.

CrashTest wrote:
 Quote:
If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war.


You are therefore willing to take the same line of thinking as these terrorists. For them it is war, and their argument is no different from what you have just used to justify the killing of innocent civilians.

Before I am mis-interpretted (I have just all the foregoing messages and see how pique has been grossly mis-read), let me state that I abhor terrorism and now that the shock is wearing off, feel sick and sad and very angry. But I also believe that as a human being and an American, it is my duty, as it is of our leaders, to use our heads in deciding how and at whom to retaliate. We have a golden opportunity to galvanize the entire world in an effort to combat terrorism at this time--EVEN LIBYA offered condolensed yesterday--Libya! By using our heads, not losing them, we may do a tremendous good for the world and that would be the greatest of all retaliations. Do not allow this heinous crime to perpetuate even more crime.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704865 - 09/13/01 05:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
This isn't the "Bridge of Rehmagen"

The guys you're dealing with will light an atomic bomb in the middle of Manhatten.

When given the next chance.
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#704866 - 09/13/01 05:52 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Neither I, nor pique, has said that we are against retaliation. I am simply saying that we need to be sure who we are retaliating against and we should ensure that more innocent life is not taken in the process.

There is potential to turn this tragedy into an ever greater catastrophe. There is also potential to possibly gain some good out of all this horror.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704867 - 09/13/01 05:58 PM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
Bernard,

I don't think anyone here is against finding out whom we're dealing with!

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]
_________________________
wgh

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#704868 - 09/13/01 06:24 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
wghornsby, You are correct about that. I guess I was getting a little defensive.

To PianoWorld,

I think is was brilliant of you to move this thread to a new forum. At first, I thought you completely removed it but after a minute of poking around found it again. Thanks.

I would also like to point out that the message from Eldon today at 12:53 is pretty offensive. I used to participate in some forums hosted by a major newspaper but left because they inevitably degenerated into mud slinging. I sincerely hope that these forums will remain more or less civil.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704869 - 09/13/01 06:33 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5598
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Thanks Bernard,

I can understand people's need to lash out at a time like this but I will not tolerate any more of our members lashing out at each other. We all got along pretty well before this tragic event.

I don't want to have to ban anyone from the forums, but I will if I have to.

Frank B.
Piano World
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#704870 - 09/13/01 06:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
There will be renewed interest in geography in the coming days. Apparently all trekking tours are cancelled along the Afghan-Pakistan
border mountains. Which doesn't mean that this is a particularly boring part of the world.
Europe based rumours indicate that there may
be more action coming than most of us could ever handle.

Including their most valued [part-time] inhabitants.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
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#704871 - 09/13/01 08:25 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:


You are therefore willing to take the same line of thinking as these terrorists. For them it is war, and their argument is no different from what you have just used to justify the killing of innocent civilians.[/b]


No, Bernard. With sincerest respect, I have to point out that you are severely mistaken. "War" is waged by people who are trained and are officially the representatives of a recognized national government. In other words, soldiers, not civilians. In "war," the deaths of civilians occur, but are not the main objective.

Yet this is exactly what these beasts did - this was not "collateral damage" - these people *targeted* innocent civilians. Moreover, they were doing the bidding of not only their own terrorist groups, but of supportive governments that hide their actions behind the terrorists. Again, with respect, I find it mind-boggling that people cannot recognize this distinction. And I refuse to let go unchallenged the assertion that arguments made by people demanding heavy military strikes against both the terrorists *and* their supporters are morally equivalent to the arguments of the terrorists. Bernard, this is simply absurd.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:

Before I am mis-interpretted (I have just all the foregoing messages and see how pique has been grossly mis-read), let me state that I abhor terrorism and now that the shock is wearing off, feel sick and sad and very angry. But I also believe that as a human being and an American, it is my duty, as it is of our leaders, to use our heads in deciding how and at whom to retaliate. We have a golden opportunity to galvanize the entire world in an effort to combat terrorism at this time... [/b]


I apologize if I'm mistaken, but I don't believe I've misinterpreted you - or pique earlier, for that matter. And I agree with you, we must use our heads and make sure that we attack the right targets. Venting our rage and frustration aside, I don't believe anyone really thinks that we should simply go in and indiscriminately nuke the Middle East out of existence. I think we all want to locate the appropriate targets. But then, Bernard, we will strike them. And almost assuredly, innocent civilians will die. When that happens, I will be sad for the innocents, but I will accept it as the inevitable product of a war we did not start and are now forced to fight. I certainly will not consider it the moral equivalent of the acts of the terrorists. And no one else should, either.

Dwain

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#704872 - 09/13/01 09:08 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
this will probably be the last post i can afford this evening as i am getting ready to leave town.

thank you, frank, for creating a more appropriate setting for this conversation and for reasserting the requirement for civility.

and thank you, bernard, for speaking up. i was starting to feel a bit alone out there in piano world. (whoever knew that pianists were such a conservative group?)

i heard a very interesting interview on montana public radio this evening, with a terrorism expert at our local university who has written several books on this subject.

the gist of what he said is that there are two schools of thought on how to deal with terrorists: 1. is militarily, with a heavy blow of force, because that is "all these people understand." or 2. politically, by understanding and undercutting the social support that they have.

he gave a couple of examples to illustrate these schools of thought. the israeli army is among the most sophisticated, effective, and highly trained armies in the world when it comes to dealing with terrorism, and yet the decades they have spent using military might with surgical skill has not ended terrorism in their country. to the contrary, they live in a perpetual state of war, state of seige, with terrorist acts exploding around them almost daily. their failure proves that terrorism cannot be eradicated with military might. in fact, it may only serve to perpetuate it.

conversely, if you look at the weathermen, a radical terrorist group that was active in the usa in the late 60s and early 70s, they disappeared as soon as the vietnam war ended. until that point, there was social support for them. but once the war was over, they could not sustain themselves, as it was only the anti-war sentiment that made it possible for them to survive as an organization. there has to be a larger social cause or sentiment that supports a terrorist group or they can't recruit members or survive.

so, says this expert, the key to eradicating terrorism is understanding its social underpinnings and then removing those social underpinnings.

he says the first step is for us to ask this question: why were 18 men willing to give up their lives for this cause? why is it that there are networks of thousands of followers who are willing to do the same? what beliefs or social or political conditions feed the social support for this movement?

unless you answer those questions accurately, you have not arrived at the root of terrorism. and you cannot kill that root unless you understand it--the sentiments of the larger social fabric the terrorist operates in.

what are those sentiments and why do those societies have them? and what can we do about that?

that line of questioning is the route to ending terrorism. military action is just a feel-good measure that satisfies our need for vengeance. but it doesn't work. the israelis have proven that.

interestingly, he did say this doesn't mean we shouldn't use military action, that it is understandable that people demand it and we are "entitled" to it. but we have to understand that it is ultimately ineffective.
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#704873 - 09/13/01 09:15 PM Re: On a day like this.........
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Innocent people will die if war is declared. There is no getting around it. If the master-mind of this entire operation told you that you could take him out right now, but would first have to kill a child he is useing as a human shield to get to him, wound you? I would say yes. As sad as it is, innocent people will have to die in order to get to the main man, becuase hes too much of a coward to come out and take his punishment like a man. He would rather hide behind innocent people. Lifes like that and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. Its very sad, but it happens. If we let the terrorists live on, the terrorism will never end, resulting in even more innocent lives being lost for no reason.

GOD BLESS AMERICA[/b]
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#704874 - 09/13/01 09:50 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Pique wrote earlier today:

the news reports i am watching and listening to are the new york times, the washington post, the boston globe, cnn, msnbc--all on the web. on television i've spent long hours watching nbc and pbs. on the radio i've been listening to npr/bbc radio.[/b]

The sources that are quoted above form the heart of the media support network for the liberal mind with National Propoganda Radio being at the head of the list. The difference between a staunch conservative like me and someone like Pique as a highly developed "touchy feely" liberal is that I will regularly and frequently monitor sources like NPR, the Post , the Times, MSNBC & NBC (never the Clinton News Network -- I was one of their biggest fans until they finally drove me away somewhere early into Clinton's second term) and other liberal media resources just to hear the distorted perspectives. A liberal like Pique sticks to peer reinforcement only and would never think of reading the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times, the National Review, listeni to Rush Limbaugh, watch Fox News or otherwise seek out and read nationally syndicated columnists like Thomas Sowell, William Safire, Peggy Noonan, George Will, etc. With her media choices above, Pique has been overdosing on the liberal party line and no amount of detox posts by Forum folks here will change this perspective without some other balance in her life. My guess is that she has also surrounded herself with liberal academia types as well (whoops -- "liberal academia" would be a redundant phrase).

To understand the liberal mind is a feat completely beyond my grasp. They have absolutely no in-depth understanding of cause and effect relationships. There are only vain repetitions of theories that have been discredited, disproved and disavowed, yet they keep on pushing them. It's a shame that Pique has spent so much time promulgating some of these views in this forum at a time when Americans are hurting and want words of encouragement and plans of action that will get desirable results. Come to think of it, I believe a lot of the liberal leanings in other areas -- including education -- are rapidly wearing thin with most Americans. This tragic event may serve as a wake-up call to take this country back from well meaning but totally misguided individuals that have placed our freedoms and future in such peril.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704875 - 09/13/01 10:10 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Dwain Lee,

 Quote:
"War" is waged by people who are trained and are officially the representatives of a recognized national government.

This sounds like symantecs. I will believe anyone who tells me he/she has declared war against me regardless who declares it.


 Quote:
In "war," the deaths of civilians occur, but are not the main objective.

Good point, I agree. However, from reading some posts here I get the sense that some people consider this glibbly. While it is true there are unintended consequences of war, if we knowingly drop bombs on an area where there are many civilians, I do not condone this.


 Quote:
... but of supportive governments that hide their actions behind the terrorists. Again, with respect, I find it mind-boggling that people cannot recognize this distinction.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I do recognize the distinction. I also believe we should go after the leadership of any state that harbors terrorists with the full support of the global community, which I think we will have. But the manner in which we analyze and go after each individual state is very important or we will accomplish nothing but inflaming the passions of the followers of that state/leader. Inflaming the passions of people who only react from a fanatic standpoint is only asking for more trouble.


 Quote:
And I refuse to let go unchallenged the assertion that arguments made by people demanding heavy military strikes against both the terrorists *and* their supporters are morally equivalent to the arguments of the terrorists. Bernard, this is simply absurd.

Again, I agree with you but you are saying something different than CrashTest's comment that I was responding to: "If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war." Stated that way, it sounds to me pretty much the way terrorists reason. CrashTest was saying "innocent" lives, you are saying "terrorists" and "their "supporters". I do not consider either of these "innocent".

 Quote:
But then, Bernard, we will strike them. And almost assuredly, innocent civilians will die. When that happens, I will be sad for the innocents, but I will accept it as the inevitable product of a war ...

And strike we should if it is deemed appropriate, but I will not accept the killing of innocent civilians as an inevitable product of war. I think we are obliged to do our utmost to avoid this.


jgoo,

 Quote:
If the master-mind of this entire operation told you that you could take him out right now, but would first have to kill a child he is useing as a human shield to get to him, wound you? I would say yes.

I would say never and sincerely hope you never find yourself in that position. To kill the innocent child would be to hand the terrorist a victory. No, no, no, I would wait and make him pay without having to compromise my moral integrity.

I am not against military might, per se, if after reasoned and informed thought it is deemed the most appropriate and effective response for a certain group, individual or state, my support will be there. But maybe, in some cases there is an alternative that would better serve the ends we are looking for. Again, I find much in pique's latest note that sounds worth listening to. Military might is the easy way and I think if we are going to win this war we are going to need to work much harder than that.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704876 - 09/13/01 10:19 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Dave Andrews,

With all due respect, if you think that by listening to Rush Limbaugh and reading William Saffire you're not getting a distorted perspective, then I have to say, in your own words,

"Dave has been overdosing on the conservative party line and no amount of detox posts by Forum folks here will change this perspective without some other balance in his life."
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704877 - 09/13/01 10:36 PM Re: On a day like this.........
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
I guess no one's reading my posts. \:\(

I can't believe we're arguing politics at a time like this.
_________________________
wgh

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#704878 - 09/13/01 10:40 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
To all: I'm gone for the evening, do have as nice an evening as you possibly can given the circumstances. It is my sincerest hope and wish that this horror and catastrophe can be vidicated, when all is said and done, by the realization of a safer world for everyone.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704879 - 09/13/01 10:51 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Bernard wrote:

With all due respect, if you think that by listening to Rush Limbaugh and reading William Saffire you're not getting a distorted perspective, then I have to say, in your own words,

"Dave has been overdosing on the conservative party line and no amount of detox posts by Forum folks here will change this perspective without some other balance in his life." [/b]

So Bernard, other than being identified as a liberal which you apparently wanted everybody to do based on your retort, which part of the following paragraph in my original post did you not understand?

" I will regularly and frequently monitor sources like NPR, the Post , the Times, MSNBC & NBC ... and other liberal media resources just to hear the distorted perspectives."

Liberal knee-jerk reactions make such a fabulously rich contribution to the American fabric, you know what I mean there sport? There was a wonderful book written a number of years ago entitled "The Closing of the American Mind" by Alan Bloom. Mr. Bloom is not a conservative, but he certainly had your number. Perhaps if you knew as much about conservative viewpoints as I do about liberal viewpoints, you could break out of being a caricature and enter the world of the thinking and reasoning populace.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704880 - 09/13/01 11:30 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Random thoughts:

I would NEVER sign a petition like that. No, pacificism will get us no where with an enemy that's intent on destroying us, starting with civilians, beloved landmarks and our own president first! Have you spent any time listening to their rhetoric? They HATE us. We have tolerated different viewpoints up to the point that we now have cells of terrorists in our own country!

The only way to make the extremists stop is to stop their money flow, which ultimately comes from a few terrorist states. Most of the suicide bombers are actually paupers. I'm not sure even bin Laden would be able to fund this operation by himself. Follow the money! When we convince the ones holding the money (be it Khadafi, Saddam, the Talliban or whoever) that is no longer in their best interest to fund the extremists, they will stop doing it for the survival of their nation.

So, how do we convince them to stop funding terrorism. You chose diplomacy and pacificism. That, unfortunately, will lead to more terrorism. Ghandi himself said the Jews shouldn't resist Hitler! What kind of policy is that when you're working with a different mindset?

Yes. They think different. They think that if they kill themselves and take out their enemies in doing it in an act of martyrdom during Jihad, or Holy War, they will go to a paradise, where 70 virgins await them. Think I'm kidding? I am not! According to an LA Times article from August 25, 2001:

"But Abou El Fadl, who researched the issue for a book on Islamic rebellions, said the Arabic in another source of the story, the Koran, could be read as either promising martyrs the company of virgins or blessed, purified souls.

According to Abou El Fadl, many militant Islamic leaders have embraced the virgin interpretation. He said they include Sayyid Qutb, the spiritual head of the Muslim Brotherhood who was executed by the Egyptian government in the 1960s, members of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and Saudi militant Osama Bin Laden."

Non-extremist Muslims not only need to condemn terrorism, they need to fix this thinking. (The Koran is against suicide.) As long as they are pleasing their God with the promise of their paradise and their hatred running so deep, nothing will change. These are their values.

BTW, I was (am?) a journalist for 14 years and it is indeed the most LIBERAL group of people I have ever met, especially the people making the decisions about news coverage. I have often been the only conservative in a news room (even during a short stint at the LA Times). This is not a myth!

enough for now,
penny

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#704881 - 09/13/01 11:44 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
I lost the quote, but someone here essentially said fighting back against terrorism doesn't work and gave the example of Israel. I firmly believe Israel wouldn't even exist today if it didn't fight back! And let's remember, it is El Al, Israel's airline, that is never hijacked because of its armed marshalls aboard its planes.

I salute the brave passengers of the plane that went down in nowhere Pennsylvania. They are true heroes. And they were NOT pacificists!
penny

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#704882 - 09/14/01 12:08 AM Re: On a day like this.........
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Bernard:

I can see your reasoning behind not wanting the child to die. However, my grandmother (who was a part of the U.S. Airforce and a daughter of a U.S. military man through and after WW2) has taught me from a very early age in life that innocent people have to be taken out if it is necessary to get to the main man. Getting the main man will prevent any other innocent lives from being lost. In my example, a child. One dead child (although it would still be very very sad) is a lot better than hundreds and maybe even thousands of other dead innocent people as well, whether they be children, men, women, seinors, babies, mothers, father, brothers, sisters, etc. As for it giving the terrorist a victory, so what. That will be made up for when he spends the rest of eternity burning in hell. (Very sorry if this last statement has offended anyone). I do not mean any dis-respect by saying this at all, and however heated things on this particular forum may get, it should not effect us in any way in the other forums here at piano world.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: jgoo ]
_________________________
For off-topic discussion, please feel free to visit www.coffee-room.com

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#704883 - 09/14/01 12:25 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
This is a great article from TIME magazine. If you are of this opinion, which it appears most are.
TIME article
_________________________
Josh

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#704884 - 09/14/01 01:40 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
dave,

why are you bringing your divisive partisan politics into this? your knee-jerk intolerance doesn't do you credit, doesn't serve this discussion, and is, i feel, especially inappropriate during this time of crisis.

labels like liberal and conservative, used in a pejorative way, really say nothing. and you really know nothing at all about my politics beyond the tiny fragment i've revealed here. nor do you know what i do or don't read.

i live in one of the most conservative states in the nation, and have been here since 1983. i have many friends here, some of whom even voted for probably the dumbest governor ever elected to public office, and i am a reporter, which means that i must be able to listen carefully to the views of others without rushing to judgment. i also have to read all kinds of publications, from all kinds of viewpoints, and admit their perspective into my world view, so that i can report on those views in a fair and accurate manner.

if i didn't have the capacity to do this, i wouldn't be here participating in this discussion; i'd be over at the utne cafe, where i expect everyone would just virtually nod their head at whatever i say.

if the education, experience, and fair-minded approach i've described makes me a liberal, go ahead and call it whatever you want. simplify your world, so you don't have to try to figure out anything too complicated or that doesn't fit a preconceived notion.

i really believe that it is time for people to stop their divisiveness and come together to seek common solutions. we can only do that by listening to each other.

in my community, though we have many different points of view, we also have tolerant, respectful, civil, and even loving conversations and exchanges of perspective across the kitchen table.

we are first a community. i have allowed those with views different than mine to influence my thinking, and i'd like to think i have also influenced theirs from time to time. i have learned a great deal from people who don't think like me at all, and i bet they would willingly say the same.

it is too bad we can't talk across the virtual kitchen table here without a few people indulging in mud slinging.

time for bed. and time for me to exit this forum for a while. i'm glad we are going to have a national day of remembrance tomorrow. i know i need to participate and i hope it will help heal the ideological rift that has been hurting our country a very long time.

have a great weekend, all of you.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704885 - 09/14/01 03:51 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Pique wrote:

why are you bringing your divisive partisan politics into this? your knee-jerk intolerance doesn't do you credit, doesn't serve this discussion, and is, i feel, especially inappropriate during this time of crisis. [/b]

Using key words and phrases like "knee-jerk", "intolerance", "doesn't do you credit" and "inappropriate" underscores my point. Liberals always assume a stance of self-righteous indignance and resort to name calling when identified for what they are. Why are you so unwilling to take the liberal mantle upon yourself when your posts have been a steady dissemination of the standard liberal line here, Pique?

labels like liberal and conservative, used in a pejorative way, really say nothing. and you really know nothing at all about my politics beyond the tiny fragment i've revealed here. nor do you know what i do or don't read.[/b]

The "tiny fragment"? You mean the multitude of liberal feel good thoughts quoting numerous liberal sources that you've posted here has been a ruse and you're really an open minded thinker? You're as transparent as glass, Pique. It's far too late to run for cover.

And as for your resource library, you're the one that told us what you read. Would you care to amend the list?

I started to go through your previous messages in this thread to more or less confront you with your own words, but the simple fact is, there were so many of them that it would make this already far too long post even longer. Despite that, here are a couple quick reminders:

pique on 9/12/01 at 7:25 PM:

we've got a bunch of foolhardy hawks in office, and it scares me. there's only one moderate in the bunch, and nobody seems to be listening to him.[/b]

So who exactly introduced "partisan politics" and divisiveness here, Pique? "Foolhardy"? Pardon me, but your slip is showing. BTW, had you been listening to any other news sources such as Fox News, you would have heard the steady parade of military and security experts as well as former high ranking officials laying the blame for our intelligence failures at the feet of the Clinton Administration. You remember him, don't you? Mr. Political Expediency?

pique on 9/13/01 at 2:00 AM:

i did go practice the piano tonight. it was very soothing to have an outlet for all this feeling. i played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died.[/b]

It's nice to know that you are here for us just like Nero was there for Rome. Most of the rest of us would rather pray for the wisdom of our leaders, pray for those touched by loss, and prepare ourselves for and participate in some more meaningful response rather than to play the piano as a "gesture of love". I'm sure the victims heard you, though. Yipes.

pique on 9/13/01 at 9:08 PM:

"(whoever knew that pianists were such a conservative group?)"[/b]

Pejoratives? Divisive partisan politics? Gee, I thought that was supposed to be my domain?

Now back to my main point, which is that you liberals have no sense of the cause and effect relationship:

pique on 9/13/01 at 9:08 PM:

" military action is just a feel-good measure that satisfies our need for vengeance. but it doesn't work. the israelis have proven that."

interestingly, he did say this doesn't mean we shouldn't use military action, that it is understandable that people demand it and we are "entitled" to it. but we have to understand that it is ultimately ineffective.[/b]

Two words: Mohamar Khadafi

When you get through whining about the confrontational aspect of my posts and deal with the fact that your liberal bias, your liberal sources and your liberal remedies have completely missed the mark as far as an effective response to this mayhem, perhaps you will have time to look into some other reliable sources of both information and strategy. Books recommended by the library of the Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania would be an excellent place to start for developing a better sense of cause and effect relationships and may lead you to a realization of just exactly what the effective solutions are to our current predicament. The liberal drivel that you spout which has at its heart a loathing of the military is only going to be an exercise in futility both here and in the real world that we live in. While the collateral damage of killing innocents is certainly regretable, your "let's work it out peacefully" strategy will most assuredly cost substantially more innocent lives in the days, weeks, months and years to come. These are tough decisions that require a much larger view beyond the immediate. Since most liberals can't see anything beyond the ends of their noses, I wouldn't expect you to understand.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704886 - 09/14/01 06:07 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dave,
what makes you think that your viewpoint is more objective (more correct?) than Piques? What makes you so confident in the rightfulness of your viewpoint that you so self-righteously smash somebody elses to pieces?

Both and the rest,
To me both are biased - Dave AND Pique.
Everyone who takes an extreme standpoint, be it liberal or conservative or something else, is per definitionem biased and in my opinion on one eye blind !
None of you has looked any further than the tip of your nose up to now.
If you had done it would surely have dawned on you that:

a) what has happened in the US on Tuesday has meanwhile become an issue for the entire civilised world in general and the NATO countries in particular.

b) therefore, the decision of what steps will be taken in order to fight this kind of terrorism is NOT made by America only.

c) the task of today is to show the terrorists and the countries which sponsered or otherwise helped them that the western (read democratic) world is a UNITY and as such totally against terrorism of any kind.

d)no politician etc. at this point in time knows how to react and what way of dealing with such vermin might be the best. It MIGHT turn out that a military reaction is appropriate. BUT: it also MIGHT turn out that it is not. We have to wait and have to learn more of the FACTS before we can decide about what to do.

I do agree with parts of what all of you have said and I disagree with other parts.
No opinion is more right (or wrong) than another and lashing out at each other in the most aggressive terms does, to my understanding, not help in any way.
However, I render discussions very useful and helpful but only if we remain tolerant and don't start to become insulting or polemic. The main reason why discussions exist is foremost to exchange opinions.
Remember: "Freedom is also always the freedom of those who think differently."(Rosa Luxemburg)

And Dave,
what's wrong with piano playing to soothe oneself? If it helps Pique in this situation I find that absolutely OK and unoffending. But comparing her with Nero...I think words fail me here!

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#704887 - 09/14/01 06:11 AM Re: On a day like this.........
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
I am in Eastern Europe, and I have been through this tragedy. I was in my home working Tuesday afternoon when a friend called and told me what happened. There is no way to describe how I felt. It just wasn't what had happened, I was alone here and had no one to reach out to. I got on the Internet to try to find out what happened and the more I learned the worse it got, and I was alone.

About an hour after I found out about it my doorbell rang. When I opened the door there was an older man standing there. Although I didn't know him, I had seen him walking, and we had waved to each other in passing. He could not speak a word of English, but he handed me a piece of paper that said in English, “I want to express my condolences to you, your family, and to all Americans, for the tragedy you have suffered. I am so sorry”. He shook my hand and left. There were 5 more people I didn't know personally that came to my house Tuesday evening. Some could speak a little English some couldn't. Several had tears in their eyes. Between answering the door, I was deluged with phone calls all with the same message. I was not alone, and America is not alone.

Since Tuesday I have received over 25 faxes and emails from Germany, Italy, France, Czech Republic, Romania, Korea, and China. I received a fax from the mayor of a small village here, it was signed by all the police and firemen of the village, it said “ Our village is grieving for all the Americans that lost their lives from this senseless act, and especially the brave rescue workers of NYC that died helping their fellow man”.

Yesterday I talked on the phone to a lady that used to be our neighbor in Southern Indiana. They had a daughter the same age as my daughter, they went to school together, and she was at our house a lot. Tuesday morning this girl called her mother on her cell phone and said that she was at work and there was an explosion in the building. She didn't know what had happened and her mother would probably hear it on the news, but not to worry she was ok. This girl worked in the WTC, and she wasn't ok, there has been no word from her since.

This was a young innocent girl that loved life and was so excited about working in NYC. Every time I see pictures of that building collapsing I see her face.

I also see the face of the man that killed her. This is the face of a slimy b*****d crouched in the desert eating camel dung, This person is sub human and has no regard for life. I think that not just 94% of Americans see this face, but 94% of the world see it as I do.

I am deeply angered and offended when someone tries painting over this picture and putting the blame on Americans or American organizations. These people are not just anti-American, they are anti-world.

If their beliefs are so strong, I suggest that Pique and Bernard quit hiding in the seclusion and safety of the Internet, and go stand on any street corner in NYC and shout their message. I guarantee that they will get their a** stomped in short order.

lb

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#704888 - 09/14/01 06:23 AM Re: On a day like this.........
magnezium Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Singapore
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
I also see the face of the man that killed her. This is the face of a slimy b*****d crouched in the desert eating camel dung, This person is sub human and has no regard for life. I think that not just 94% of Americans see this face, but 94% of the world see it as I do.
[/b]


definitely... and a great portion of the world would like to see America take some decisive action against this man, and we will support America to the fullest possible in such a situation...

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#704889 - 09/14/01 08:30 AM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
A war has always been an opportunity for America to make some place in the world better, after we eliminate or subdue the evil enemies who have brought us into a conflict. We have failed in this a number of times, but I am not as interested in those past failures at this time or in this post. If we are about to pursue a protracted war, as seems likely, it is best we determine ahead of time what objectives we will accept as achievable, with clear military objectives, so that the war can be won. We do not want another Vietnam. We especially need to understand the people we are about to do battle with.

The gist of David Pryce-Jones' article, Why They Hate Us http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pryce-jones100101.shtml
is that we are dealing with a people who feel so ashamed of themselves for their political and economic situation that they must lash out against all those who have done better than themselves. This is only part of it, but Pryce-Jones' comments about the usual run of traditional relations between ruler and ruled in the Arab world are also part of it. But some of the rest of it should be mentioned as well.

Though they comprise some 247 distinct tribes, the Arabs are among the most racially pure group on the planet. Very few other peoples have mingled their blood with theirs for many thousands of years. They have lived in relative isolation in an inhospitable land where there was no practical place for a police force of any kind, therefore even before Islam institutionalized revenge and lifted suicide during a Jihad to the level of a sacred blessing, these were common sentiments among them, for the Arab needed these to preserve his freedom and his possessions. And the Arab feels most free when he is moving about the vastness of his realm from oasis to trading post.

Essentially the Arabs are a wild and pre-eminently nomadic people who feel most uncomfortable in closed in urban situations and not very much better on farms or practicing agriculture of any kind. Arabs are among the most genuinely hospitable and gracious people I have ever known. They can be staunch friends and terrible enemies as nobody is a better liar or more treacherous. These are generalities, but to a greater or lesser extent they are supported by many people (close friends of mine) who have lived and worked among them for many years. One thing is clear, as it was even during the Crusades; no one who has lengthy contact with the Arabs has ever been left unaffected; certain cultural traits, words and concepts seem to rub off and become part of the home culture; the zero, coffee, playing cards, perfume, silk, dates, and much more.

Their religion is integral to the problem posed by considering an Arab as your enemy. Precise in trifles, but strict in observance, Islam seems easier than many other religious practices. In its mildest or most mystical forms, Islam is capable of inspiring a sense of great serenity and beauty. Unfortunately it also has a fanatical and totalitarian side. Islam was spread by the sword and they are not about to give up this option without a bloody fight. Someone of my acquaintance who lived in Iraq and Iran before they were forced to leave by the Ayatollah, remarked to me that the Moslems seemed to feel themselves of the dispossessed; if they weren't born among the Jews (their brothers only in a sense, I'll explain in a minute) or were unable to be Christians (because they have a deep suspicion that Christians are really polytheists who worship three gods, and maybe more), then they can profess themselves Moslems and remain content with their portion. Giving alms to beggars is an essential requirement of Islam. Since I have been doing this for years, I guess I am Moslem myself at least in this sense.

Believing things that are unsupportable seems to be part of all religions, but for a Moslem, these beliefs must be as absolute as the edges between sun and shade on the desert. Any deviation means going to hell. There is far less concept of forgiveness among them than among other groups as it just doesn't seem reasonable to forgive the unforgivable. This tends to give the Moslem Arabs a rather severe and serious cast. Interestingly, the Prophet seems to have detested music. Despite this, there is a musical tradition among the Arabs far older than Islam, that manages to survive where it is not suppressed.

Obviously the Arabs must have some fun. And they do. Their chief pleasures are food, not drink as alcohol is forbidden among strict Moslems, sex and war, not necessarily in that order. Of course to make a living they prefer trading. They have a looser concept of private property than we do, but they definitely believe in capitalism and have always had an uneasy relationship with socialism as a concept.

All this being said, terrorism is far more likely among Arabs than direct conflict with them in the sense of formal standing armies, as the need for treachery among themselves to settle scores goes back many thousands of years, long before the rise of Islam.

One of the things that we must do is to be aware that in seeking retribution for what was done and what may still be done to us, we may be walking into a trap. We are probably not ever going to be able to trust any of them for too long without accepting certain realities among themselves.

There has been, going back to the time of the Prophet, political splits among Moslems. Islam is idiomatic not monolithic, as all religions in fact are. More to the point, the moderate Moslems have been living in fear and conflict with those who wish to impose a more totalitarian form on Arab societies. There is a conflict among them set up by contact with the rest of the world and the customs of outsiders. Civilizations are in conflict.

One very important question we need to ask ourselves if we really decide to go to war with these people is whether we want to change the Arab culture permanently and forever by force, making it inconceivable to them that the rest of the world would ever again tolerate the spreading of Islam by the sword!!! In the process we would force them to accept a democracy like ours where someone like pique or Bernard could have their opinions aired without fear of being killed for them. This is a concept that is even foreign to many central American societies, although it is changing.

Then there's the matter of Israel. Strange that the Jews are referred to as Semitic people when very few of them are anywhere as Semitic as any Arab. The word Semite derives from being descended from the patriarch Shem. Caucasians are said to be descended from the patriarch Japeth and the black races from the patriarch Ham. These were the sons of Noah. The yellow races of the Far East in Asia are believed to be the descendants of Cain who killed his brother Abel and was driven out from among the rest of humanity, "east of Eden." This is all mysterious and still unproved but there are researchers looking into all the archeological evidence and it is beyond the purposes of this post to pursue these matters further, except concerning the Jews who currently comprise the majority in Israel and elsewhere. To the Arab, these people are Europeans, not Semites. They have been away too long. They have mixed with other races. Before 1948, the Palestinians, whether Jew, Christian or Moslem, got along well. They appreciated being free of the Turk and anticipated being free of the British and French as well. The Arab never minded trading with foreigners, they just didn't like having them camp out among them for long periods of time and imposing their foreign rules on them. This is the prime beef with Israel. The Arabs look upon these people as nothing like their racial brothers, the Jews who have always lived with them, at least those who can with relative ease trace themselves back to Isaac, their younger brother. To reiterate, to the Arabs, these Israeli Jews are just other European outsiders who disturbed the Arab wandering pattern of life, closed off and invaded their land, and have threatened to take one of their holiest sites from them, the Temple Mount, one of the most mysterious pieces of real estate on earth. To the Arabs, the state of Israel is as much a blight on their "portion" as the Kingdom of Jerusalem was during the middle ages. Christian? Jew? Not to the Arab. These people are neither, as they are not truly Semitic and they wish they would go back where they came from and stop treating them like dirt. Unfortunately the Israelis can't go back where they came from and like it or not, Jerusalem and its surroundings have always been considered the legitimate homeland of the Jews by the rest of the world. And the rest of the world is not particularly interested in what happens to three and a half million displaced Palestinian Arabs whom they suppose can jolly well find plenty of space in the vastness of Araby to remove to. It's just not that simple.

This is the quagmire we are being drawn into. In a mysterious way, the terrorists are making us "feel their pain." The message is probably even stranger. They recognize what they have done. They know and expect that revenge will follow. They know that it must be severe. They expect it. But behind it I believe is the desire to have us eventually correct the problems they cannot correct for themselves, as long as we are willing to leave them to their portion after we are through. This seems oddly to be the big problem for this present century. Are we as much up to the fight as we must be up to the compassion?

And remember folks, let's go easy on pique, Bernard and others who may disagree with us. This is after all still America. This is the land where the First Amendment, as Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "allows the fool the right to drool in public." And contrary to political correctness, which is NOT a true or honorable American concept, It also allows the bystander to say who they regard as a fool. Certainly I have been the fool from time to time and I am grateful that America has allowed me this right. The fight we are about to enter with the Arab world, or a significant part of it, will determine how these American ideas of human rights (young concepts as world history goes) which we so often take for granted, may be planted among the oldest people on the planet. Remember, the innocents among them are awaiting liberation and not just from Israel, but from some of their own leaders, both political and religious. Are we up to it?
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#704890 - 09/14/01 08:42 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Nici wrote:

Everyone who takes an extreme standpoint, be it liberal or conservative or something else, is per definitionem biased and in my opinion on one eye blind ! [/b]

My view is neither extreme nor blind. On the other hand, people that cannot make a connection between cause and effect relationships or in your case, reach a conclusion in the face of empirical evidence are out to lunch. The liberals in the US continue to prove the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get different results.

None of you has looked any further than the tip of your nose up to now. [/b]

Your credibility has just tanked, Nici, with a totally ill-informed judgement.

the decision of what steps will be taken in order to fight this kind of terrorism is NOT made by America only. [/b]

Wrong. Building an alliance may be a wonderful show of unity, it may even be prudent (although the security issues suggest otherwise) but if nobody else joins us, we will complete the task on our own and take note of the cowards and muddled thinkers who could not reach a right conclusion.

no politician etc. at this point in time knows how to react and what way of dealing with such vermin might be the best. It MIGHT turn out that a military reaction is appropriate. BUT: it also MIGHT turn out that it is not. We have to wait and have to learn more of the FACTS before we can decide about what to do. [/b]

When disciplining a child, the response should be immediate so that there is no possible disconnect in their minds between the cause and effect relationship. The intensity and the timing was what made our actions against Khadafi successful. You can be sure that nothing will be done until there has been sufficient fact finding. You can also be sure that the remedy will include the full force of our military might.

No opinion is more right (or wrong) than another [/b]

This is where your muddled thinking loses me entirely. It is impossible for any one of us to straighten out people that think a logic flow is spilling coffee inside a computer. Time for you to listen more and speak less, Nici. The "I'm okay, you're okay" mentality is at the heart of many of the problems we find ourselves in at this time.

And Dave,
what's wrong with piano playing to soothe oneself? If it helps Pique in this situation I find that absolutely OK and unoffending. But comparing her with Nero...I think words fail me here! [/b]

You're words failing you may be the only good news in your entire post. If Pique wants to find solace in playing the piano, that's fine. If she wants to post on a public forum that she "played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died" in the face of all that suffering, her gesture is as useless as her suggested remedies. When she tells me that she volunteered to play in a public memorial service in their memory, I will recant. Until then, the analogy is quite apt.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
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#704891 - 09/14/01 10:09 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
dave, your self-righteousness and hostility are breathtaking. however did you come to have all the answers and know the one, sole truth? your posts are truly among the most offensive i have ever seen on any forum. the particulars are beneath a response.

david burton, thank you for the background on the arab world. it is very interesting, although there is a bit more to be said on the tribal thing: some jews are of european extraction and they are called ashkenazim. but many other jews are in fact semitic, and do look like arabs. the ashkenazim in palestine is a modern phenomenon, but there are indeed semitic jews indigenous to that part of the world.

last night, on the local commercial television station, they read aloud viewer comments from this (conservative) community. after spending (too much) time on this forum i was truly amazed to hear that at least half of those viewer comments sounded like this one: "we brought this on ourselves." and not a rah rah flag-waving comment among them.

this from people who voted for judy martz! it restores my faith in humanity.

maybe the world doesn't think like piano world after all. hm, i think i'll take a step outside and see. ;\) 'bye for now.
_________________________
piqué

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#704892 - 09/14/01 10:37 AM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I apologize to pique for my flippant tea-time remark but reiterate that I spoke of difference and strength which pique translated as subhuman and murder. When I was young, I too felt that all people were the same. As a teacher I learned that each of my students was different and needed to be treated differently. As much as I loved my students, there was strength in my dealings with them just as there is with my children.

The manifestation of that strength differs as those with whom I deal differ. David Burton has reinforced how these people differ in his post. Regardless of B and N's defense of pique, I believe pique distorted what I said more than I misinterpreted what pique said.

I had hoped to apologize directly to pique via email but the address is not available here. Neither is Bernard's. Probably a vast left wing conspiracy of silence. (just kidding, you two. ;\) )
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704893 - 09/14/01 11:01 AM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
oh, dear, i am still reading. :rolleyes:

i'm going to try to use the quotations function, but no guarantees how it will come out:

 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
I apologize to pique for my flippant tea-time remark but reiterate that I spoke of difference and strength which pique translated as subhuman and murder. When I was young, I too felt that all people were the same. As a teacher I learned that each of my students was different and needed to be treated differently. As much as I loved my students, there was strength in my dealings with them just as there is with my children.)[/b]


well, dt, then i misunderstood your comment about differences. of course the kind of differences you speak of exist. i guess i thought that went without saying. what i thought i heard you saying was that somehow some of us are different from others in a *fundamental* way. and that is what i was disagreeing with. we are all the same in that we all try to find happiness, we all do the best we can, we all need love, we all feel hurt, etc. in otherwords, in our humanity we are the same. and it is from that basis of belief that we have compassion and mutual respect, despite sometimes deep differences.

I believe pique distorted what I said more than I misinterpreted what pique said.[/b][/QUOTE]

sorry for the misunderstanding. i apologize.

I had hoped to apologize directly to pique via email but the address is not available here. Neither is Bernard's. Probably a vast left wing conspiracy of silence. (just kidding, you two. ;\) )[/b][/QUOTE]

very funny, dt ;\) i think the tenor of the conversation here more than reinforces my decision to not post my email. the last thing i need is to perpetuate these discussions by email as well!

thanks for the apology. accepted and welcomed.
_________________________
piqué

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#704894 - 09/14/01 11:25 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Brad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Lexington, KY
"Pique" --

This is why so many people on this forum are upset with your attitude:

"last night, on the local commercial television station, they read aloud viewer comments from this (conservative) community. after spending (too much) time on this forum i was truly amazed to hear that at least half of those viewer comments sounded like this one: "we brought this on ourselves." and not a rah rah flag-waving comment among them.

this from people who voted for judy martz! it restores my faith in humanity."

Your approval is directed at those who criticise our country and assert that America is somehow at fault and your disapproval is directed at the "flag waivers" who support his country.

These are your words. I can only assume this is your true belief. If so, it is your right to write them and my right to comment that your views are despicable in this time of great tragedy, suffering, and loss.

God bless America,

Brad

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#704895 - 09/14/01 12:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
there is more than one way to support one's country, brad. from my point of view, i AM supporting my country. i can't say that strongly enough. criticism is called for. self-examination as a nation is called for. to deny that is not my idea of supporting my country.

to say that we have to unite at the expense of examining the truth makes no sense to me. we can be united AND examine our role in the world. they are NOT mutually exclusive.

and how does self-examination make us more vulnerable to terrorists anyway? how does having a debate about foreign policy make us more vulnerable? it doesn't. this is a fear-mongering myth. rather, thoughtful discussion might lead to actions that solve the problem rather than make it worse.

we clearly have extremely different views on this. i did not imagine, when i first posted my views, that it would upset people here so much, and didn't post with the intention to upset anyone. at first, i thought that what i posted was what most people would think. it is certainly how most people i know think.

when i discovered that wasn't so, i had hoped to have an exchange of views with people who believe very differently than i do. but i see that they (you) cannot hear me. i'll quit trying, as i've already had my say, and repeating it clearly won't make any difference.
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piqué

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#704896 - 09/14/01 12:34 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
When Kennedy said in my home town of Berlin:
"Ich bin ein Berliner" I felt I had become at that time already a very young American.

Kennnedy wasn't afraid of the big guys across the wall and this is the wrong time to worry about the small *****s.

I hope you will move on them ,kill'em all
and let Allah sort out the pieces.

Your GI's at the Berlin border would have!
_________________________
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#704897 - 09/14/01 12:50 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Brad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Lexington, KY
Warning -- Non-"Pique" related comments follow:

Norbert,

One of the seminal experiences in my life was my visit to West Berlin in 1984. I was a young man in graduate school at the time with liberal tendencies and a relatively benign view of socialism/communism. It was easy -- nay, fashionable -- to develop such views when raised in middle class comfort in America in the sixties.

What struck me -- what shocked me -- was The Wall, the guard towers, the guns, the guard dogs, the barbed wire and the realization that anyone who tried to come over from the east side would be killed. I'm sure I intellectually understood this before, but standing on the viewing platform at Potzdamer Platz and looking that that system of evil made it so real. It changed me. Freedom is not easy and must never be taken for granted.

Needless to say, today I'm an example of the axiom (to paraphrase Winston Churchill) that anyone who is not a liberal at twenty has no heart and that anyone who is not a conservative at forty has no head.

I returned to Berlin in 1990 right after the wall came down. What a wonderous experience.

Brad

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Brad ]

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#704898 - 09/14/01 01:57 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
And the wall in New York will also come down.

Except there are no cheering crowds on it.

America will do what it has to do.

And emerge stronger than it ever has.

Whow to those who are not on her side.

This time around.
_________________________
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604-951-8642

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#704899 - 09/14/01 02:11 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Ah, the Disneyfication of America.

A magic pill for every ill, meat that requires the death of no animals, everybody loves everybody else.

Pardon me whilst I vomit.

Self introspection and motive explanation is wonderful, but it will certainly get you killed in a gunfight. And war is a gunfight between nations, except this "war" is not even with a soverign nation. This war is with rats and we need to exterminate them. Now. By any means possible. Now.
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#704900 - 09/14/01 02:20 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
I am reluctant and hesitant to try and make any valid points, or ANY point for that matter for fear that I will be verbally assaulted by Dave and pelted with his sarcastic hostile remarks. Dave, understand that I too feel that a crater should be made out of that place, but in reading your posts I find that you take everything anyone says quite personally and do your best to degrade them and their opinions to the fullest extent that you can. One of the freedoms of our country is that of free speech. You don't have to agree with the views held by Pique and Bernard, but it is unnecessary to insult them. Perhaps you should start trying to disagree in a more civil and less hostile manner.
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#704901 - 09/14/01 03:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
When at peace, tolerance is easy. We can tolerate silly people making idiotic statements such as, "well after all we trained Bin Laden so what do we expect?" or "we need to be self critical at a time like this: America is partly to blame." But now we have been slugged in the mouth by an organization with the sworn and widely publicized intention of destroying us.

It's time to make a few things clear to some people:

1) We fought the Nazis because if we didn't they would have taken over the world. They were driven by an EVIL IDEA.

2) We fought a cold war against another EVIL IDEA that some people refuse to see as either evil or insane. For the most part we can consider what these people believe as terribly foolish. Most socialists or their sympathizers have no idea that the man behind the idea, Karl Marx, was in fact a SATANIST! It wasn't that Communists were atheists. They BELIEVED in God. They intended to displace God, deliberately. The main reason I came to despise socialism and any who supported it was that IT HAS KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER SYSTEM EVER CONCEIVED BY THE MIND OF MAN, far more than THEY attribute to Christianity or for that matter all wars of religion throughout history combined. Communism is a LIE, it has never worked and never will. People run from it where it is installed. Those who can't run from it become its slaves. Indeed organized Communism holds the all time record for murder: over 100 million people in one century! As long as ONE PERSON still believes in this EVIL system, it is still alive and functioning and dangerous to everything America stands for. I have a right to my vitriol: when I was young I considered myself a socialist. Then I got my facts straight and grew up, fast. Apparently a few out there still haven't. There really are EVIL people out there and they become EVIL by accepting EVIL ideas.

3) There are many other EVIL ideas out there too, false views of the world, of humanity, etc. These views inevitably lead to a conflict when they attempt to expand and make a bid to force themselves on others.

I am increasingly angered by opinions that somehow America, with our incredible TOLERANCE for foolish and silly people with their erroneous and EVIL ideas, must somehow accept blame for what terrorists have just done to us. My anger is white hot when I consider these people and their foolishness! Isn't it amazing that America is such a great country that we allow people the FREEDOM to think and say such things? Isn't it amazing that people have DIED in the Civil War, World Wars I & II and other wars to make sure they could still speak and think whatever mush they have in their heads?

I have said many times to many people that IDEALISM IS EVIL and it is imperative that all parents instill in their children an acceptance of REALITY rather than a belief in an idealism. My daughters have been raised not to whine and complain about how unfair the world is, but to go out there and take the world by the horns, to accept conditions just as they find them. They don't have any self esteem problems, that's for sure. Let me explain.

I am distinguishing between an IDEAL which is fine and good and an IDEALISM which is destructive and evil. An idealism, not an ideal, is a system, a world view that sees the world in an idealized state that doesn't conform to any reality at any known time in history. Such twisted ideas as Economic Justice, Reparations for Slavery (as if 625,000 lives weren't enough!) and literally dozens of other "causes" all motivate people to divide the world into two camps, those who support the cause and those who are enemies. It is precisely this inevitable tendency to create ideology that makes an idealism so dangerous. If one does not support the cause, they are inevitably stigmatized and ultimately marked for liquidation. This is what so many of us have against liberals. I know damn well too. I was once a liberal myself! When someone disagrees, the name calling begins. Behind the name calling is a hate motivated by a desire to instill the idealized view of the world on everyone, by force. Well it wont work. It never does. In the 7th century Mohammed tried to get the Jews of Mecca to "convert" to his religion. They wouldn't, so he killed them all, men, women and children. He did the same to those pagans who still worshipped Baal. The pattern he started continued over the next decades.

The IDEA behind the terrorist acts, an idea they were willing to give their own lives up for, was another idealism, that Islamic Fundamentalism should take over the world and that anyone who doesn't want to live under strict Islamic law, as interpreted by THEM, must DIE! There is nothing very new about this. It's just another idealism, and they are all EVIL.

OK America, do we take this on? You bet we do. Let's start by making ourselves clear; Islamic Fundamentalism, the EVIL IDEA that motivates people to KILL THEMSELVES in order that it succeeds must be called what it is; AN EVIL IDEALISM. Those who willingly support it are now our enemies. War as Carroll Quigley has said, is fought to convince the losers that their view of the world is mistaken. Unless we want to accept Bin Laden's view of the world, that anyone who is not an Islamic Fundamentalist BY HIS DEFINITIONS must DIE, we had best face up to the task of wiping out this EVIL IDEA which belongs on the slag heap of history along with Nazism, Communism and Fascism.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!
_________________________
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http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704902 - 09/14/01 05:33 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Dave Andrews said:
 Quote:
So Bernard, other than being identified as a liberal which you apparently wanted everybody to do based on your retort, ...

I am unabashedly a social liberal. Thank you very much.


 Quote:
...which part of the following paragraph in my original post did you not understand? "I will regularly and frequently monitor sources like NPR, the Post , the Times, MSNBC & NBC ... and other liberal media resources just to hear the distorted perspectives."

I understood every bit of it. You admit that the only reason you monitor those sources is "just to hear the distorted perspectives." It's hardly as if you're paying any attention to them with the possibility of broadening your mind a little.

 Quote:
Liberal knee-jerk reactions make such a fabulously rich contribution to the American fabric, you know what I mean there sport? There was a wonderful book written a number of years ago entitled "The Closing of the American Mind" by Alan Bloom. Mr. Bloom is not a conservative, but he certainly had your number. Perhaps if you knew as much about conservative viewpoints as I do about liberal viewpoints, you could break out of being a caricature and enter the world of the thinking and reasoning populace.

There is such pomposity in your comments that I can't help but chuckle. Thanks for cheering me up a little. And I have no response to this absurd little paragraph--it generates it's own answer.
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#704903 - 09/14/01 05:51 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
To lb,

You wrote:
 Quote:
I am deeply angered and offended when someone tries painting over this picture and putting the blame on Americans or American organizations. These people are not just anti-American, they are anti-world.

If their beliefs are so strong, I suggest that Pique and Bernard quit hiding in the seclusion and safety of the Internet, and go stand on any street corner in NYC and shout their message. I guarantee that they will get their a** stomped in short order.


You offend me. I doubt that you have read anything I've written on this forum and in fact are only listening to the phantoms in your own head. If you'd actually read what I've written, you'd know that 1) I, like everyone else, am horrified by the tragic events of Tuesday, 2) adhor terrorism, 3) am totally behind an effort to fight terrorism and eradicate it as much as we can, 4) have deep feelings of sadness for all the victions, 5) love my country and it's freedoms, 6) believe that Love is far stronger and greater than hate, 7) Hate begets hate, 8) if we do not think carefully about how to fight terrorism we may find the world in a much worse state than it currently is, 9) if we do react with level heads we can achieve a great wonder for the world.

Do yourself and me a favor, READ my posts before lashing out at me.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704904 - 09/14/01 06:04 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
I am unabashedly a social liberal. Thank you very much. [/b]


OK. I'm not sure you know the implications of what you are saying, most social liberals don't. Don't get yourself all upset over what I am about to say. It's not directed at you personally. Being unabashedly anything is often the beginning of a real education. I too was at one time unabashedly a social liberal.

Social liberal idealism, another misguided EVIL, supposes as it does that personal responsibility, private property, the benefits of modern finance capitalism, the right to prosper from the risk of one's own capital, count for nothing compared with making sure that those who are foolish, weak, stupid or LAZY must be coddled by the state, which in turn makes the lives of everyone a hellish equality of bureaucratic "fairness," is a system that has never worked and never will. Indeed NOTHING of any significance which has made our lives materially better has ever been or can be attributed to it. Social liberal idealism has in fact bankrupted a number of countries and in some cases made the way clear for despotism and tyranny. Those who espouse it are fools if not desperately evil. You can always tell them by their attitudes; they are smug, they back away from any reasonable argument and resort to name calling because in fact they are woefully ignorant of the world and how it really works, in fact they don't like the world the way it is, they want to make it over into their own idealized vision, they know more than anyone else about what they have never experienced, their ability to run anything for a profit is nil, they masquerade as compassionate when in fact they are self absorbed spoiled little snots. It's OK. This is America. Brave people have died so that these fools have a relatively safe place to play. We have to take care of all our children, especially now. Hopefully some will grow up. This world could sure use a few more grown ups.
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http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704905 - 09/14/01 06:08 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
To lb,

One more comment about this statement you made, which I did not respond to above:
[QUOTE]I am deeply angered and offended when someone tries painting over this picture and putting the blame on Americans or American organizations. These people are not just anti-American, they are anti-world.[QUOTE]

Sad to say, but again, I don't think you're really listening to what is being said. For me it is not about placing blame, it is about acknowledging that we're not as perfectly innocent as some would believe. As great as America is, we too have lessons to learn. A little humilitiy would suit us.

Don't you think that slavery was an act of terrorism against black people? We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians." and it was our CIA who trained Osama bin Laden so he could carry out terrorist acts against the Soviet Union.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704906 - 09/14/01 06:29 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Ok. One more post but I think it might be the last for me, at least for a week or so. I found after leaving last night that I don't really have an appetite for this sort of debate right now. I feel laden from all the sorrow around me and want to concentrate on that for now. Maybe I'll check in later, maybe not. Anyway in a week or so I might feel more up to it.

Parting thoughts:

jgoo, I hear you but I'm not persuaded. I would never kill the innocent to get to the bad, as long as there is any time. If I were confronting the terrorist holding up the child as hostage on one side of a field with his trigger on a detonator that was capable of immediately blowing up 10 other children on the other side, it might be a different story. But there is some time, albeit, we don't want to put it off (and we're not) but we do have time to think through our response.

To Dt,

I am really touched by your apology and really didn't expect it. Thanks a bunch for your consideration. \:\)
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#704907 - 09/14/01 06:32 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Sad to say, but again, I don't think you're really listening to what is being said. For me it is not about placing blame, it is about acknowledging that we're not as perfectly innocent as some would believe. As great as America is, we too have lessons to learn. A little humility would suit us. [/b]


I have been paying attention to what you've been saying. I happen to think that America has been humble enough, so humble that we have been weakened to concentrate on our feelings rather than building up or brains.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Don't you think that slavery was an act of terrorism against black people? [/b]


No, I don't. It's more complicated than you know. Their own people in Africa were paid to chase them onto the slave ships. Times and perceptions have changed. In any event the price was paid as I have suggested by the casualties of the Civil War; 625,000 dead and over a million and half injured. In any case, there will never be enough reparations for some people.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians." [/b]


And it was a damn good thing we did too, else the Soviet Union would have built a military bass down there so they could shrink their supply lines and strike at us from closer range. Best you get a grip of real political realities; this hemisphere is OURS as long as we have the power to make it so. Our security, mine and YOURS depends on it. Here's another tidbit for you. Remember President Ferdinand Marcos of The Philippines and his silly wife, Amelda, with her 6,000 pairs of shoes? After they were deposed we took them back to Hawaii and made sure they were taken care of real well. Know why? Because she had a lover who was a high ranking KGB officer. We wanted to overhear pillow talk. The Soviets were interested in displacing us in the Philippines and building a big submarine base there. We have our reasons for playing in the real world. It has been the bleeding heart idealism of social idealist fools that has hobbled our intelligence to the point that we can no longer do what needs to be done to adequately protect ourselves from the scum of this world who would bring us down to their miserable level.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
and it was our CIA who trained Osama bin Laden so he could carry out terrorist acts against the Soviet Union.[/b]


Great! I for one am GLAD that the Soviet Union is no more. Sounds like you are sorry. Maybe you should have gone there. As I said in an earlier post, we USE people. Everyone does. Bin Laden and the Taliban were on strings. Most governments around the world are on strings. Go read my website, The Polar Bear, and get an education. Bad things happen when people we use get free of their strings. It isn't just us. The British have lots of people on their strings as do the Russians, Israelis, Chinese, Japanese and every other country. The real world works through balances of power. When these balances get off balance, bad things happen. If you don't happen to appreciate the opportunities and freedom this country offers, there are many others you can try out. I've been to a few others and yes they have things to offer, but I've always breathed a sigh of relief when I got back on American soil. Think about it.
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704908 - 09/14/01 06:33 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Let's nip this "blaming of America" talk in the bud please! All of us, just as Americans have done in previous wars, need to come together and feel a common purpose and brotherhood. We all must abhor these evildoers, and we (and our numerous allies) must penetrate and ahhihilate their mounting terrorist cells. Some of these are in our own country, for God's sake! This is no time for America-bashing, is it? Think of all the burnt and crushed and frightened victims...Americans. We must present a common front...no, we HAVE to present a common front to these barbaric people.

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#704909 - 09/14/01 06:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
Pique and Bernard,

Just a quick note to let you how much I appreciate your recent posts. After all the ugliness and sorrow of recent days, I appreciate your thoughtfulness at this time of unspeakable loss.

As for David Burton, please take your political pamphleteering elsewhere --at least spare us your arrogance until you've outgrown your diapers.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#704910 - 09/14/01 09:43 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
David Burton is a very honourable man.

He's the kind of guy I can remember from Check Point Charlie,Friedrichstrasse, Berlin.

The time, when others that came behind him,

weren't quite there yet.............

........or in DIAPERS THEMSELVES!

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704911 - 09/15/01 03:34 AM Re: On a day like this.........
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Bernard

I'll make a deal with you. I see by your post you live in New York City. When Larry's refrigerated trucks get there, you go and while they are loading them shout your message. "The people that did this are innocent, they were forced by the United States to do it. We should now embrace them and show them love". If you are able to come back here and post after that, I will apologize to you and even kiss your a**.

These people are about to be embraced, real tight, and they will see a lot of love. The love of Americans for their country. At least 94% of Americans.

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#704912 - 09/15/01 09:08 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
It's funny. In the past, I've had severe disagreements with posts made by lb, over things that now seem as substantial as cobwebs. Today, I stand together with him as a brother.

Mourn the dead.

Dwain

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#704913 - 09/15/01 12:59 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Diarmuid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 219
I don't know what to say. I most certainly did cry several times in the last few days. My cousin narrowly avoided being killed (he changed jobs a few months ago - he worked on the 96th floor of the WTC). This is a most disgraceful act of carnage and a most despicable act of evil. But words aren't enough.

As to Pique and Bernard, I'm not a violent person, but I'm also not naive. I'm proud to live in a country that supports the USA unequivocally in their hour of need and also in whatever action they choose to take. People don't realize how lucky they are that the major power in the world is a free and democratic country. Just consider how bad it could be.

And frankly the time for sweet talk is over.

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#704914 - 09/15/01 02:43 PM Re: On a day like this.........
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Dwain
Thanks, that meant a lot. There is no right or left now, only the middle, and most Americans are there together with the world behind them.

lb

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#704915 - 09/15/01 03:23 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Beth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/01
Posts: 151
Loc: Atlanta Area
Wow. I almost gave up reading through all of this. I haven't had the time/energy/desire to keep up with the forum this week.

Wow. I'm truly overwhelmed.

To anyone still trying to follow these discussions, my pov. There is room in America, even an America at war, for differing points of view, even those so very different from our own that we find them abhorrent.

Many pacifists during the Vietnam era found a non-combatant support role when drafted to be an acceptable compromise. Many dodged the draft and fled the country.

The pacifists have the right to their beliefs, and there are many with pique and bernard who will object to the military actions to come. I pray that they are heard clearly to temper the few who are extremely blood-thirsty elements among us.

I pray that all of us will come together to support our President and country in the tough times to come. Support does not always mean complete agreement. They, not we, will make the hard choices, and our servicemen and women and their families will bear a cost equal to that being paid by the families victimized this week.

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#704916 - 09/15/01 03:36 PM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
There is no right or left now, only the middle, and most Americans are there together with the world behind them.
lb[/b]


In the last few posts I've made myself quite plain to everyone. There are very few things left in this world that make me genuinely angry. What was done last week in New York and Washington was way beyond the pale. It was an act of war pure and simple and WILL get a response in kind. The lines are being drawn right now. Sides are being chosen, even in the Arab world. I am NOT happy when I hear about Arabs or Moslems being harassed or their mosques destroyed, not at all! I think I've made it clear that we are dealing with a very complex situation into which we have been drawn. We cannot automatically jump to the conclusion that EVERY Arab or EVERY Moslem is somehow responsible for what's happened. As I have said again and again, it is the EVIL IDEA that motivates evil action and for us to prevail, that EVIL IDEA must be identified and wiped out from civilized company.

I like the quote above, it's really correct. Most Americans are in the middle. I've made it pretty clear how I feel about the left; at best their merely silly, at worst they're dangerous, particularly now when our national resolve is being tested. Interesting how I was immediately castigated for my views, which proved that they my views were accurate concerning the true nature of idealism. But leftist idealism isn't the only kind around.

Here's another thing that really gets me mad; people daring to speak for God. Even though he tried to apologize for his stupid remarks, which proves that he really said them, the Rev. Jerry Fallwell, sounded just like pique, Bernard and others who say that we deserve what we got, except that he blamed the excesses of the left for it and said that God had answered these excesses. See the full article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html
These people are fools, maybe worse than fools. If I had been there myself I would have walked up to him and spit in his face! How dare he or anyone dare speak for God in this way? This must stop.

One thing I hope that the times ahead will do is rid American society of the LOUD VOICES of the radical left and the radical right and replace them with the QUIET reasonable voice of the kind and generous American middle.

War is a cleansing thing. In it a nation finds out what is really worth saving and what is fit to be disposed of. We will come through this and we will change the face of the world of our enemies for years to come. Our own face will be changed in the process. This conflict is NOT about getting even, it IS about compassion. The evil must be removed before the healing can occur, not before. The evil has met us in the skies above New York and Washington. It is time for those who hate us to meet our vindication in the skies above Kabul, Baghdad and other places around the middle east.
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704917 - 09/15/01 05:39 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Skies?

500 sidewinder missiles are waiting.

Convential enemies with convential weapons?

I think not.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704918 - 09/15/01 09:12 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
netizen wrote on September 14, 2001 06:53 PM:

Pique and Bernard,

Just a quick note to let you how much I appreciate your recent posts. After all the ugliness and sorrow of recent days, I appreciate your thoughtfulness at this time of unspeakable loss. [/b]

So netizen, which post contained the most "thoughtfulness"? Was it when Pique called our president "foolhardy" just one day after the attack? Now that was thoughtful. Maybe it was her suggestion that any military response would be "shameful". Perhaps it was her demand that another poster submit their "mysterious credentials" in order to opine. Maybe you thought that her petition to make this whole thing a matter for the criminal justice system rather than to consider it an act of war showed great insight. Perhaps it was the neat little verbal pirouette she did when she stated that Eldon was guilty of making an " erudite (not) commentary" and then chastised him for making a personal insult. You must have been really impressed when she said "if no one else here agrees with me, and this forum is a good representative sampling of general public sentiment, which it may well be, i really fear for this country." Maybe you liked her position where those that favor sitting on their thumbs possess "more thoughtfulness than those who are posting here with bombast". (I surmise that the bombast people must be the ones that favor a military style form of retribution.) Maybe you liked it best when she accused me (after all her remarks so far) of "divisive partisan politics" and "knee-jerk intolerance"? Wow, did I ever feel like a whipped puppy after she said it "doesn't do you credit, doesn't serve this discussion, and is, i feel, especially inappropriate." Shame on me.

And wasn't it rich after those barbs, that we got to listen in on my favorite radio program: Weekly Sermonette. Here is the transcript:

in my community, though we have many different points of view, we also have tolerant, respectful, civil, and even loving conversations and exchanges of perspective across the kitchen table.

we are first a community. i have allowed those with views different than mine to influence my thinking, and i'd like to think i have also influenced theirs from time to time. i have learned a great deal from people who don't think like me at all, and i bet they would willingly say the same.

it is too bad we can't talk across the virtual kitchen table here without a few people indulging in mud slinging. [/b]

Of course, she had to amend the sermon later on with this addendum in a later post:

dave, your self-righteousness and hostility are breathtaking. however did you come to have all the answers and know the one, sole truth? your posts are truly among the most offensive i have ever seen on any forum. the particulars are beneath a response.[/b]

Netizen wrote later in the same post:

As for David Burton, please take your political pamphleteering elsewhere --at least spare us your arrogance until you've outgrown your diapers. [/b]

So people that express your point of view are "thoughtful" and people with whom you disagree are "arrogant" and immature, eh netizen? Let me guess. You and Pique and Bernard are all the same people. right?

I believe that David Burton pretty well covered this territory in my absence, but just to underscore his point: liberals do not think[/b] things, they feel[/b] things. That's why their responses are so visceral rather than substantive. And as David suggested, we can lay an awful lot of our social demise and defense deterioration at the hands of liberal hearts. The above post by netizen is just a microcosm of the liberally sourced name calling posts here. When their ideas are stomped on, they attack personally. My agressive responses to Pique dealt with her actions and her suggested remedies. The worst name that I called her was "liberal" which she took as a pejorative. I volunteered that I was a conservative, which pretty much made the labels nothing more than political labels and not pejoratives, yet she dismisses my remarks as personal attacks. Pique and Bernard and Netiquette et al are hypocritical and totally blind to it because they "feel" things rather than "think" things.

I hope the rest of the Forum readers pay attention to these exchanges in this context. I thank David Burton specifically for point ing out what should be obvious to all by now. Liberal thinking has significantly hampered our nations commerce, jeopardized our safety, and unraveled our moral fabric. These people are dangerous and the rest of us ought to confront them at every opportunity. Not by personal attacks, but by challenging their failed policies and programs and pointing out the falacies in their logic. Make it your mission.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704919 - 09/16/01 12:08 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Alex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 116
Loc: Plano, tx
Maybe I'm a little late to check in here. At the risk of everyone attacking me like you have all unmercifully attacked Pique (while saying at the same time that everyone has a right to speak their opinion -- as long as it's the same as your opinion!) I'd like to share this email I received recently.

Dear Friends,
>>The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
>>Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I
know
>>in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here is his
>>take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.
>>
>>-Gary T.
>>
>>Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:
>>
>>I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
>Stone
>>Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean
>>killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,
>>but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage.
>>What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
>>whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
>>
>>And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am
>>from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here (the US) for 35 years
>I've
>>never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who
>will
>>listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
>>
>>I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
doubt
>>in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New
York.
>>I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
>>
>>But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
>>government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics
>who
>>took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
>>plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
>>think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
>>Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only
>that
>>the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the
first
>>victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in
>>there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international
>>thugs holed up in their country.
>>
>>Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
>>answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A
>few
>>years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled
>>orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are
>>millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in
>>mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all
>>destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan
>>people have not overthrown the Taliban.
>>
>>We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.
>>Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make
the
>>Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn
>>their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done.
>>Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care?
>>Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the
>rubble
>>of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In
>>today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to
move
>>around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those
>>disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have
>>wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a
>>strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it
would
>>only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the
>>people they've been raping all this time.
>>
>>So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true
>>fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with
>>ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to
>be
>>done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as
>>needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
>>qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the
sand.
>>What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some
>>Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's
>>hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to
>>Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
>>Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would
>have
>>to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm
>>going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
>>
>>And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.
>>That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right
>>there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem
>>ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the
>>West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west
>>wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing
>left
>>to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably
>>wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the
war
>>would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who
>>has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
>>
>> Tamim Ansary

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#704920 - 09/16/01 12:18 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Dave, I must say you put your case forward very well.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#704921 - 09/16/01 01:02 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Alex:
Maybe I'm a little late to check in here. At the risk of everyone attacking me like you have all unmercifully attacked Pique (while saying at the same time that everyone has a right to speak their opinion -- as long as it's the same as your opinion!) [/b]


Anyone here has the right to speak their opinion. That right does not come bundled with the obligation for anyone else to agree with it. Posting an opinion invites commentary, positive or negative.

Pique understands this, having had no trouble in posting opposing viewpoints to the opinions of others. Pique also is quite adept at making personal attacks on others, while simultaneously crying foul, decrying "divisiveness" when others do the same in return.

I don't see in any of these posts where pique has been ganged up on. As far as I can see, she(?) has given as much as she got in return.

I don't agree with pique. I also don't tell pique not to post here. But stating a mere disagreement with one's opinion does not equal censorship. And demands for respect ring a bit hollow when the respect does not appear to be mutual.

Dwain

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#704922 - 09/16/01 04:27 AM Re: On a day like this.........
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
I want to thank both Gary T and Tamim Ansary for bringing this perspective to our attention. I am preparing to send copies of Mr. Ansary's letter to my congressman and senators as well as others I can get to in the Bush administration. I can't assume they have this perspective, but we are approaching a critical moment in world history. I want to reiterate some of the things I said in an earlier post concerning this coming confrontation with the monsters who perpetrated this great crime against not only the United States, not just the West, but against the entire civilized world, as there were in fact people from all over the world in those buildings. New York is after all perhaps the most cosmopolitan city on earth. Many European friends of mine have called it the capital of the civilized world.

I am assuming that Mr. Ansary is correct when he says,
 Quote:
Tamim Ansary:
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no Doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
[/b]


I said in an earlier post that one of the things we must do is to be aware that in seeking retribution for what was done and what may still be done to us, we may be walking into a trap. Mr. Ansary and I are reading from the same page especially where he says that,

 Quote:
Tamim Ansary:
the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics
who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps.". [/b]


Ansary goes on to describe the utter destruction of Afghanistan that has already taken place. A Canadian journalist of my acquaintance was able to sneak in and out of Iraq after Desert Storm and reports much the same thing. The problem we are dealing with is not the people, except perhaps for the Palestinian Arabs who pretty uniformly feel that the Israelis are just the latest run of outsider oppressors.

People have asked why we didn't get Saddam Husein when we had the chance? For many reasons we didn't have the chance. I am aware of at least two reasons, one of which is enough to have made it difficult or impossible to make "getting Saddam" the prime objective of the Gulf War. For one thing there was at the time a power struggle going on in the disintegrating USSR. Had the UN mandate been exceeded, it would have strengthened the hands of the hard liners in the Kremlin who would have been persuaded that had the Alliance that fought the war against Iraq been given the chance to go after them, then they would have done so. This was the primary reason why we couldn't just get Saddam. We had to show restraint then, and we probably have to show restraint here as well, though of a different kind.

Now, ten years later, Saddam Husein may in fact be dying. He will be succeeded by one of his sons, probably the worst of them who is much worse than Saddam ever was, another Bin Laden.

So if as Mr. Ansary says, and I firmly believe him, that

 Quote:
Tamim Ansary:
The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with
ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to
be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. [/b]


This is precisely what Bin Laden and the son of Saddam and all the other Islamic radicals want. They are able to motivate sentiments among their people, EVEN THOUGH THOSE SAME PEOPLE ARE BEING RUTHLESSLY EXPLOITED BY THE BIN LADENS IN THE REGION, because these leaders are able to pull all the usual Arab and Islamic strings; "we are the dispossessed of the earth, everyone treats us like dirt, etc. It's time for us to make them pay."

Turn this around and let's suppose that instead of Islam these people were Christians or Buddhists. Would it matter. They are INSANE, driven by an idealism that sees everyone living under the yoke of radical Islam with themselves living off the rest. As Mr. Ansary says,

 Quote:
Tamim Ansary:
In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to
move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have
wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a
strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would
only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the
people they've been raping all this time. [/b]


OK, a few points.

1) There is NO DOUBT that the rest of the world, the West, could if it wished indiscriminately crush out Islam in any pitched conflict. The kinds of weapons we have, some of which were demonstrated on the battlefields of Desert Storm resulted in the most lopsided victory in history.

2) Despite the breathtaking treachery done to us, which some actually believe is beyond the capabilities of Osama Bin Laden, and hence was orchestrated behind the scenes by other nefarious factors (none of which I suppose is correct), we stand to win nothing by a wholesale devistation of the populations of the middle eastern countries. What in fact is true as I said in my earlier post was that these subject Arab populations, and those non-Arab populations in Iran as well, are awaiting a liberation from their oppressors that they cannot pull off themselves.

3) People who are forcibly subjugated, starved, kept in ignorance, and fed the LIE that the rest of the world only cares about getting their oil from them but nothing more, are far more likely to follow any strongman who shows up and promises them even a particle of fake dignity. In the coming conflict, we have the opportunity to Americanize the common people in the region without denigrating their religion, without killing them off wholesale or "bombing them into the Stone Age." Guess what? Most of them are already living in the Stone Age and people like Bin Laden are telling them that we in the rest of the world are keeping them that way or telling them that somehow living in hopeless squalor is holy.

There is absolutely no question that a military solution must follow. It is also absolutely certain that ground forces will get a look at some of the most rugged terrain in which ever to fight a pitched battle or a prolonged guerrilla campaign (which is exactly what it will be).

4) We will need to isolate the Islamic radicals from the rest of Islam. This is a difficult matter but there are cleavages in the middle east that make this possible, except for the Palestinian problem which will complicate things until a solution is finally worked out that everyone in that region will be forced to accept, because obviously nobody there will be satisfied with anything less than all of what they want.

We are looking at a quagmire. We cannot succeed if we don't make it abundantly clear that we will accept nothing less than the total unconditional surrender of the Taliban and the capture or death of Osama Bin Laden and all of his henchmen. We must make it clear TO THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST that there will be SEVERE retaliation for aiding these terrorists, but that just as we did in Germany and Japan, we WILL bring about a change in middle eastern societies.

We are looking into the future and seeing a lot of blood, a lot of intense conflict, but after the monsters are overthrown, we have the opportunity to reconstruct these societies as was done after World War II by the Marshall Plan and SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

I'm sorry that at this point in time I cannot see the wisdom of putting America on the defensive by forcing her and us to accept recriminations for the evils we may have been responsible for as some have suggested here and elsewhere. In the balances of human affairs, America has given more to more people around the world than any other nation in the history of mankind. This is without question and is even acknowledged by most honorable people around the world. It seems that the business of the future is upon us, this terrorist attack has roused America to action. We will not stop until we have made the people responsible pay for this. But after we are through, we had better take care of the widows and orphans, and there will be many.

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: David Burton ]
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#704923 - 09/16/01 08:54 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Diarmuid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 219
Dave Andr. and Dwain for the record I consider myself to be liberal minded. Liberal people are not all idiots. I know where I stand on what happened recently, and what should be done about it.

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#704924 - 09/16/01 01:48 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Diarmuid posted September 16, 2001 08:54 AM :

Dave Andr. and Dwain for the record I consider myself to be liberal minded. Liberal people are not all idiots. I know where I stand on what happened recently, and what should be done about it. [/b]

The word I used was "dangerous". Nowhere does the word "idiot" appear in any of my posts. And while it is not necessary for me to speak for Dwain, I think you will find that his posts have shown incredible restraint and respect to a number of people here that have not reciprocated.

If you would care to advance your ideal US response to the attack, I'm listening. It would be a refreshing change to have a liberal discuss the issue in specifics rather than broad generalities with vituperative ad hominem attacks.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704925 - 09/16/01 04:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Diarmuid:
Dave Andr. and Dwain for the record I consider myself to be liberal minded. Liberal people are not all idiots. I know where I stand on what happened recently, and what should be done about it.[/b]



Diarmuid, I've not called liberals dangerous or idiots. Neither side of the political spectrum has the market cornered on either of those descriptions.

I was, and am again, only pointing out that I didn't think that anyone was particularly "piling on" pique, or trying to deny her(?) the right to say anything. All that I saw was people exercising their equal right to disagree. I also pointed out that pique used certain tactics in her writing/argument style, then tried to assume some moral high ground, criticizing Dave for using the same styles of argument. I haven't said either of them should or should not use those forms of discussion. I haven't told either of them to shut up. I'm just saying they're both grownups, in a grownup disagreement. All I've pointed out is that a person can't take some righteous position of superiority or victimhood for getting back only the same as they have given.

I happen to agree far more with Dave than with pique or Bernard. But I haven't called them names, or told them to get lost.

Right now, I'm not picking up sides based on liberal vs. conservative, north vs south, young vs. old, urban vs. rural, or even American vs Arab. My only distinction is, are you with us, or against us? There is no escaping the choice.

People will quibble over this thing that the US did that hurt this group, or this thing that the US didn't do that hurt someone else. But these arguments are just puff, and entirely not the issue today. Everyone needs to look at the overall balance sheet. Is the world better off because of our actions, or worse? Has the concept of freedom and peace been spread to more of the world, or less because of our involvement?

Everyone has to decide who has a better track record, us or our enemies, toward betterment of the world condition. Who is it better for the world to have win this struggle, the US, or its enemies? No one is perfectly one thing or another, but on balance, who more closely represents good, and who more closely represents evil?

It is now time to make that choice, and to also realize that no matter how hard we want peace, it must periodically be paid for through force, and sacrifice. Wishing it otherwise just doesn't make it so.

Dwain

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#704926 - 09/16/01 05:09 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Dwain, that is a very eloquent synopsis. I can't begin to top that, so I just have to say "Amen". God bless America and pray for our President.

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#704927 - 09/16/01 08:53 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
I told myself that I wasn't going to post on this thread as I wasn't interested in an argument right now, but what the hell, here goes…

First, you should all know that I'm a liberal, and I'm proud of it. I believe in protecting the environment. I believe in equality for all races, religions, genders and sexual orientations. I am pro-choice. I believe in affirmative action. More often than not, I'm in agreement with the ACLU's position on anything they get involved with. And my liberal leanings can go on and on as you may well suspect.

Are these idealistic beliefs? You bet they are! Are some of my beliefs “castles in sky” and unlikely to ever work as I believe they could work? Of course some of them are! They are nevertheless MY BELIEFS, and I cherish them.

But you know what? None of that is important at the moment. The attack on America is an attack on the very foundations of my beliefs. Without the freedoms provided to me by America, I would have never had the luxury of formulating those beliefs, nor had the ability to voice them.

We must have JUSTICE ... then peace. There is simply no viable alternative to that approach. Without first achieving Justice, there can never be a real peace. Furthermore, we must achieve justice without ourselves committing injustice. Does that mean that no innocent lives will be lost in the worlds pursuit of justice? Sadly, no. Additional innocent lives (beyond what we've already lost in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania) will be lost in the pursuit of justice. It is the job of our leaders and our allies to do everything possible to minimize the loss of innocent lives, while at the same time ensuring that the steps taken to protect the innocent do not unduly jeopardize the success of the mission. It is OUR job as members of the world community to ensure that injustice does not creep into our lives and color our thoughts and actions. Muslims are not the enemy. Afghans are not the enemy. Liberals and reactionaries and anyone in-between are not the enemy. Terrorists are the enemy, in all of their many guises and nationalities. The world is faced with a series hard decisions. By following a careful path we have the opportunity to make the world a better place for ALL of its inhabitants. To me, that path is simply stated as

Justice ... then peace.

Dan

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#704928 - 09/16/01 09:18 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dan:

First, you should all know that I'm a liberal, and I'm proud of it. I believe in protecting the environment. I believe in equality for all races, religions, genders and sexual orientations.

Liberals and reactionaries and anyone in-between are not the enemy. [/b]



Just a couple of things, Dan, as a point of clarification. Protecting the environment, equality for all races, religions, genders, and sexual orientations do no make you a liberal. Conservatives believe in those things too.

And the opposite of liberals is not reactionaries. I know that's what liberal thought teaches, but I wanted to take the opportunity to clear that up for you. "Conservative" does not mean "irrational" or "reactionary" or such. It does not mean we are all belong to the local militia or the Klan. I am from the South, and I can tell you it is quite the opposite actually. Most of the ones in the Klan are Democrats, as are most of the ones in the militia groups. And they proudly let you know it.

Conservatives are just as educated as liberals. We are just as caring. We think deeply, and are able to think deeply, just like liberals. We just differ on how to solve certain problems.

I don't write this to argue the point, but to clarify it. I agree with you that what we face needs to bring us together at a point beyond the level of liberal/conservative. But as a Conservative, the word "reactionary" is as unsettling to me as the word "Utopian" would be to you. It just doesn't fairly describe what a Conservative is.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#704929 - 09/16/01 10:55 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
Yes Larry, I agree with your clarification. What I intended to convey was two extremes (Utopian and Reactionary in your terminology). The "anyone in-between" was meant to include liberals (me), conservatives (you), and everyone else.

As you seem to have understood, it wasn't my intention to paint anyone in this forum with any labels. Merely to point out that where an individual falls on that scale is not what's important at the moment.

And, just for fun let me say that the label "Democrat" and the label "Liberal" is also not the same thing. Tying the "Democrat" label to the Klan and using the "Democrat" label as a synonym to the "Liberal" label could also be interpreted as an insult by the way, and that linkage is just as unsettling to me as the label "Reactionary" was to you.

Your mentioning of the Klan, militia groups and I'll add White Supremacists groups raises an interesting train of thought. Are these group terrorist organizations? Does America's war on terrorism include a war on these groups? If it does, do we try to figure out which ones have actually practiced terrorism versus those that have only talked about it? And if we make that distinction in America, do we also try to sort out "talk" versus "deeds" for the international terrorists as well? There's some pretty sticky moral questions we're going to have to face in this war. For the immediate future, these questions don't need to be answered. But for the phase 2 operations against terrorism, I sure don't know what the "right" answers are.

Dan

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#704930 - 09/16/01 11:36 PM Re: On a day like this.........
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
DeeWain scribbles: "So netizen, which post contained the most "thoughtfulness"? Was it when Pique called our president "foolhardy" just one day after the attack? "[ Actually, I sort of thought that was a very generous characterization]. Blah, blah, blah, blah Maybe you liked it best when she accused me (after all her remarks so far) of "divisive partisan politics" and "knee-jerk intolerance"? [ Hmmmmm, sounds about right to me]. Blah, blah, blah, blah.. Wow, did I ever feel like a whipped puppy after she said it "doesn't do you credit, doesn't serve this discussion, and is, i feel, especially inappropriate." Shame on me. [Honey, we've all been there before. Just give yourself a big hug]. More blah....

Blah, blah, blah...I thank David Burton specifically for pointing out what should be obvious to all by now. Liberal thinking has significantly hampered our nations commerce, jeopardized our safety, and unraveled our moral fabric. These people are dangerous and the rest of us ought to confront them at every opportunity. "

Right on, DeeWain! I so appreciate your skipping the Lancaster County Saturday Night Hootenany just so you can send me that special message of freedom and tolerance --especially at this time in our nation's history. Whew, I'll sleep easier knowing that DeeWain Andrews, Church Music Systems Specialist of Lancaster, Pa has it all figured out!! Rest assured as soon as I've dug my way out of the wreckage, I'll be on the lookout for these dangerous liberals. In this day and age it's so important to know your enemies.

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: netizen ]
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#704931 - 09/17/01 12:08 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Well netizen, while displaying your respect for others here as requested by the Webmaster by making personal slurs, I suggest you first figure out whose message you're responding to.

DeeWain

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#704932 - 09/17/01 12:10 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
It might be a good start to just pay enough attention to know their correct names.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#704933 - 09/17/01 12:21 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dan:
As you seem to have understood, it wasn't my intention to paint anyone in this forum with any labels. Merely to point out that where an individual falls on that scale is not what's important at the moment.

[/b]


Yes, I did understand that. And you are quite correct, one label doesn't automatically associate the other. As for the groups like the Klan and the militia groups, yes, I guess they would qualify as a subversive element in society, but at the moment none of them seem to be involved in any terrorist activities. The Klan seems to have become nothing more than a rag tag group of rednecks who get together once in awhile and drink beer and talk about the people they hate, and the militia groups seem to be out of sight too - but maybe my perspective on them is skewed by the fact that I don't really pay much attention to them.

There will be differing opinions as this thing progresses, and it is important that our country put aside these issues for a time. If we don't, we will tear ourselves apart on our own, and lose the war. Then it won't matter which label you fall under.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#704934 - 09/17/01 06:50 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Diarmuid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 219
Dave A.

As far as I'm concerned the USA seems to be doing exactly the right thing. Finding out who is responsible, requesting their immediate extradition, and if this is not forthcoming treating the people who harbour them as equally responsible and taking decisive military action against them. In addition to this G.W. Bush is launching a long term military campaign against terrorism.

And, listen, please calm down. I'm not having a go at you. People in Britain are 100% behind you. Liberal or otherwise (and it does seem that Liberal means something different this side of the pond).

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#704935 - 09/17/01 07:20 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Diarmuid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 219
Dwain,

Thanks for your reply. I promise you I have no sympathy for the thoughts expressed by Pique or Bernard. I think they are highly inappropriate and deeply naive.

And I can assure you I'm with you.

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#704936 - 09/17/01 09:01 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Diarmuid posted September 17, 2001 06:50 AM:

Dave A.

As far as I'm concerned the USA seems to be doing exactly the right thing. Finding out who is responsible, requesting their immediate extradition, and if this is not forthcoming treating the people who harbour them as equally responsible and taking decisive military action against them. In addition to this G.W. Bush is launching a long term military campaign against terrorism. [/b]

I agree totally.

And, listen, please calm down. I'm not having a go at you.[/b]

Understood. That's why my response to you was neutral, encouraging you to speak to issues as a refreshing change. My stronger language is reserved for commentary that only further makes my point -- as in the little temper tantrum posted by netizen. By the way, I'm quite calm. The first error made in a debate by liberals is to assume that strong arguments must be made with animosity. Such is not the case, at least from my end. Of course, in the face of a strong argument, most of them crumble into rock throwing, tears, pouting and generally adolescent behavior.

People in Britain are 100% behind you. Liberal or otherwise [/b]

This is understood and deeply appreciated. Thank you.

(and it does seem that Liberal means something different this side of the pond).[/b]

I cannot speak for your country, so you may be right. But in this country, liberals have been responsible for promulgating social programs that have been obscenely expensive and for the most part, complete failures. The liberals always enjoy mandating their generosity through government action where everybody is forced to participate. These programs have always contained a major bureaucratic component which has assured that the bulk of the funds confiscated never get to where they are intended. This has made the government in our country a huge financial drain on the engine that drives our economy: small business. When given a chance, a lot of small business becomes big business.

As a by-product of the above, liberals in this country have become the strongest proponents of wealth redistribution not only via social programs, but through tax policies. They are, at their core, anti-capitalists. When they finish draining all available resources from our economic engine, they then look to areas that are of a much lower priority to them, and rob funds there. The chief target for additional budgetary funds is, of course defense which is at the heart of our problems right now. The number one function of our government is to protect its citizens, yet when we throw liberals into the mix, we find out that the rest of the world is not all that bad afterall, nobody will want to hurt us because we're so well meaning. We don't need to maintain our defenses. After all, the cold war is over. Let's light a candle and sing to world peace. "We are the world" "blah, blah, blah" (copyright 2001, netizen).

Liberals in this country have given us judicial activism. Rather than use the prescribed constitutional process given to the congress for redressing issues through the lawmaking process, activist judges have reinterpreted existing law in light of current "politically correct" thinking. "Politically correct thinking" is, at worst, an oxymoron, and at best, shifting sand. Either way, it's a usurpation of the constitution and why it's tolerated is beyond me.

Liberals in this country have become the chief apologists for some of the most reprehensible moral behavior in this country, and especially among our elected officials when they happen to be of the liberal persuasion. They have advanced a term which is commonly called "tolerance". Tolerance does not mean what it used to mean -- accomodating others of unlike faith, ideals, practices, etc. Tolerance now means that anybody's idea is just as valid and right as anybody elses and you better accept it as truth because the other person believes it to be truth. This is liberalism's most substantive attack on the last vestiges of morality in our country, trying to erase all semblances of right and wrong and allows them to give credence to pure unadulterated depravity.

Finally, liberals in this country have so misconstrued our founding fathers intent, that anybody with religious faith of virtually any stripe in this country will instantly be labelled a pariah if that faith is expressed in any public forum, especially one associated with the government.

Just as a point of reference, there are liberal republicans and conservative democrats. The liberal - conservative divide is *not* along party lines. As a republican, I hold conservative democrats in the greatest esteem.

So, when I said these people are dangerous, I was dead serious and will continue to maintain that position and do my best to stomp on liberalism at every opportunity, and encourage others who are equally alarmed at where our country is now over where it once was, to do the same. To sit idly by while they continue with their huge disconnects in cause and effect relationships is to hand the keys of the country to Bin Laden types.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704937 - 09/17/01 09:42 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Hank Drake Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Let us remember the root cause of Osama bin Laden's actions: religious fanatacism.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#704938 - 09/17/01 09:53 AM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
Hank Drake posted September 17, 2001 09:42 AM

Let us remember the root cause of Osama bin Laden's actions: religious fanatacism.[/b]

Try unabated hatred or even a perversion of religion if you must. But when you use terms like "religious fanatacism" you invite condemnation to all peoples of all faiths that have deeply held religious views, and you miss the mark entirely with your analysis which is neither accurate nor well reasoned. It's just a shorthand stomp on faith -- a typical rallying cry of those opposed to any religious expression.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704939 - 09/17/01 11:20 AM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
To both of your latest posts, Amen and Amen.

The big name liberals continue to push failed programs that feel good. Then they take the credit when others hard work and money actually does something about the problem.

As many Muslims have stated these past days, both OBL and the Taliban push a distorted version of that religion. Since one definition of religion is a cause pursued with zeal or fervor, religious fanaticism might be an accurate description of what they follow; however, it is misleading because that isn't the primary definition. They are inherently evil kooks who use a perverted form of religion as their foundation. Perhaps, that might have been what Hank meant.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704940 - 09/17/01 12:54 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
dave andrews:

according to your definition of a liberal, i am one, and proudly. though i disagree that we misconstrue the founding fathers' intent where it come to the separation of church and state.

thankfully we have a free society that permits the expression of all points of view without persecution. i could never tolerate living in the kind of society you view as your ideal. i repeat: your view of the world and what is "right" is totally intolerable to me: your idea of morality is not the same as mine, nor is your idea of religion.

there are millions of people out there who don't see the world as you do. or, for that matter, don't see the world as i do.

the difference is that i don't think any of us has a right to force our morality or religion on others, and apparently you think you know how others should lead their lives.

like i said, thankfully our bill of rights and our constitution protect us from people who think they know it all and want to shove their "morality" down other peoples' throats.

religious fanaticism is abhorrent to me no matter which religion it is associated with, or where. faith is a private matter; people who use it as a bludgeon to force their own social and political agenda are immoral, in my book.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704941 - 09/17/01 01:25 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Alex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 116
Loc: Plano, tx
Pique, Amen!

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#704942 - 09/17/01 02:13 PM Re: On a day like this.........
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
the difference is that i don't think any of us has a right to force our morality or religion on others


I couldn't agree more. But then we get into definitions. If I stand in front of a group of high school students and tell them how my relationship with God has enriched my life am I "forcing" my morality on them. No, I'm just talking and those who don't want to listen can tune me out. On the other hand, if I make you give me money to finance social programs developed under my moral rules and threaten you with jail if you don't pay, am I forcing my morality on you? I think so. Many liberals would think just the opposite. The former, talking about God in a school, is somehow defined as Congress making a law establishing a religion and despised. The latter is adored for it is deemed in the public good. Much more force, or threat thereof, is present in the latter.

If only we would give the 9th and 10th Amendments the weight that we give to the 1st.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#704943 - 09/17/01 02:25 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
pique posted September 17, 2001 12:54 PM

i could never tolerate living in the kind of society you view as your ideal. i repeat: your view of the world and what is "right" is totally intolerable to me: your idea of morality is not the same as mine, nor is your idea of religion. [/b]

Okay, Pique. Here's a test. 1. What is my "idea of morality"? 2. What is my "idea of religion"? 3. What kind of society do I view as my ideal? Be specific so that we have something to debate rather than to exercise our vocabularies with negative innuendo.

there are millions of people out there who don't see the world as you do.[/b]

Oh yes, I almost forgot. 4. How do I see the world?

the difference is that i don't think any of us has a right to force our morality or religion on others, and apparently you think you know how others should lead their lives.[/b]

Where or when did I say that I was forcing my religion on anybody? Where did I even state what my religion was? And as for forcing morality on anyone, it's called the law and is designed to allow a pluralistic society to function in an orderly fashion. So what is it that you are talking about?

like i said, thankfully our bill of rights and our constitution protect us from people who think they know it all and want to shove their "morality" down other peoples' throats.[/b]

You liberals really hate it when someone can reach a conclusion and state it confidently, don't you? Maybe you're frustrated because the conclusion that you reach today is subject to complete revision tomorrow. You have no moral anchor of any type other than how it feels today, so there is no constant in your life creating all of the confused verbage you're dumping here. As soon as a strongly worded opinion advances that shakes up your categories, you run for the cover of sanctimonious name calling. Well, as a "know it all" I can tell you that I know for certain that your casting of aspersions pretty much makes all of my points about you as a quintessential liberal. I am, however, gratified that you're at least willing to accept the mantle instead of trying to hide behind some self-righteous facade as a reasonable thinking person. You've refuted that camouflage with these posts better than anything I could ever say to expose you.

religious fanaticism is abhorrent to me no matter which religion it is associated with, or where. faith is a private matter; people who use it as a bludgeon to force their own social and political agenda are immoral, in my book. [/b]

Deeply held religious views are quite well reasoned in most cases and do not represent fanaticism for the majority of Americans. Yet you continue to paint with that broad brush. While you state "fanatics" specifically, your implications target all religious faith. You scream like a stuck pig when I define liberals (without challenging any particular point) and then turn around and make so many broad generalizations that nobody in their right mind can follow just exactly what it is you're trying to say. And you're a journalist? Hope you have a real job to fall back on.

Everybody has some philosophical base from which they operate. Your religious fanaticism appears to be secular humanism, the elevation of man as the ultimate decider of all right and wrong as the situation may call for. As a philosophical fanatic, you and your liberal pals exhibit far more animous and venom towards people of faith than can be remotely justified. You are guilty of bigotry and hypocrisy of the first order, and your posts prove it.

As for me, I am only interested in having this society operate as the founding fathers intended, using the remedies prescribed by the constitution. That means that people of some religious and/or philosophical point of view have an equal opportunity at affecting legislation, and we intend to do just that. It is our right, just as it is your right to work for your goals. You liberals want to bypass the normally prescribed methods for remedy and choose whatever is expedient. You also become far more militant in your condemnation of others than I have ever seen coming from the conservative side, and are the first to try and limit the rights of those with whom you do not agree.

I have always been a law abiding citizen and will abide by the laws -- i.e. prescribed and mandated morality -- defined for us in this pluralistic society by our government. I will continue to tolerate (in the old fashioned sense of the word) people like you with views that are muddled and irrational. However, your propoganda will not go unchallenged when you choose to post in a public forum where I have an opportunity to respond.

Unless you can come back with some specific issue that you would like to debate, I suggest that you not try another post where all you proffer are feelings, impressions and generalities. I'm liable to get moderately testy and in a moment of weakness, raise my verbal phasor from "stun" to "decimate". While it may be entertaining for a few, it is not all that edifying to the majority and I'd prefer not to try their patience any more than I have already.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704944 - 09/17/01 03:12 PM Re: On a day like this.........
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Andrews:

Okay, Pique. Here's a test. 1. What is my "idea of morality"? 2. What is my "idea of religion"? 3. What kind of society do I view as my ideal? Be specific so that we have something to debate rather than to exercise our vocabularies with negative innuendo.[/b][/b]


in answer to your questions, go back and read your own post!


>>And as for forcing morality on anyone, it's called the law and is designed to allow a pluralistic society to function in an orderly fashion. So what is it that you are talking about? <<

the law and morality are not equivalent. for example, it is the law that a woman has a right to an abortion. to a large number of people in this society, abortion is not moral right. those who espouse the "right to life" philosophy are trying to force their morality--not the law--on others.

>>You have no moral anchor of any type other than how it feels today <<

where is it written that thought is superior to feeling? i think as a society we probably need both.

>>As soon as a strongly worded opinion advances that shakes up your categories, you run for the cover of sanctimonious name calling. <<

dave, point out a single name that i called you in my post. there isn't any name calling there.

>>Deeply held religious views are quite well reasoned in most cases <<

ROFLOL!!! this is your most hilarious statement yet! and you accuse me of feeling without thinking? what else is religion but feeling without thinking? again, i'm not condemning feeling--i think it is as valid a way of "knowing" something as thinking--but religious belief is not based on reason!!!
it is based on direct--and i might add, very private--experience. and that experience is a feeling, and is in no way rational. it may be valid, but it is not reasoned!!

>>While you state "fanatics" specifically, your implications target all religious faith. <<

yes, i was very specific about fanaticism. so why are *you* implicating all religious faith? and why are you so touchy about being painted as a fanatic just for being religious? that wasn't what *i* said.

>>>You scream like a stuck pig <<

gee, that sounds like name calling to me!

>>Your religious fanaticism appears to be secular humanism, the elevation of man as the ultimate decider of all right and wrong as the situation may call for. <<

certainly. and i consider it a very well reasoned religious fanaticism, too. (LOL)

>>you and your liberal pals exhibit far more animous and venom towards people of faith than can be remotely justified. <<

more war and bloodshed have been committed in the name of service to god than for any other reason. i think anyone who feels animosity towards organized religion can easily find numerous and very solid justifications for it.

>>I'm liable to get moderately testy and in a moment of weakness, raise my verbal phasor from "stun" to "decimate". <<

oh, dear, oh, dear. i am just quivering in fear. whoever it was that suggested that you wait to speak until you got out of diapers was, i'm afraid, too on target.


>>While it may be entertaining for a few, it is not all that edifying to the majority and I'd prefer not to try their patience any more than I have already<<

i could have hardly said it better myself. a good reason for you to take your own advice about posting here.

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: pique ]
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#704945 - 09/17/01 03:45 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Dave Andrews Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Lancaster County, PA
pique posted September 17, 2001 03:12 PM

in answer to your questions, go back and read your own post![/b]

My posts offered no such specifics.

the law and morality are not equivalent.[/b]

Morality: 1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

Law: 1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.

Conclusion: same thing based on my usage. Got any more oblique insights?

where is it written that thought is superior to feeling? [/b]

You must be kidding?

No wonder debating anything with liberals is an exercise in futility. You're liable to wake up tomorrow and "feel" that Bin Laden was just trying to help NY with major renovations.

In light of these comments, I'll let my previous posts stand as written. You're certainly welcome to the last word if you have anybody that is still listening to you for anything more than entertainment value.
_________________________
Dave Andrews, RPS
(Recovering Piano Salesman)
D. W. Andrews Associates
Church Music System Specialists

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#704946 - 09/17/01 04:12 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Hank Drake Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I do not speak for pique, but for me the mark of delineation between "deeply held religious beliefs" and "fanatic" is when one goes spouting the nonsense that Jerry Falwell did last week.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#704947 - 09/17/01 04:40 PM Re: On a day like this.........
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5598
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
This Thread Is Closed![/b]


Apparently you folks aren't getting my message. When you stoop to fighting among yourselves ... the terrorist are winning!

I agreed to open a forum for everyone to discuss the horrible events of last week. I did not expect it to degrade into mud slinging. I would have expected better from this group.
You can continue to use this forum to discuss ways TO HELP EACH OTHER[/b].

It is time to work together again, to help the thousands of families that have lost loved ones and to save our country from this debacle. Put your petty political debates aside.
GOT IT?

Frank B.
Piano World

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: PianoWorld ]

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: PianoWorld ]
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