Piano World Home Page Forums General Discussions 9/11 - - Never Forget On a day like this.........

thank you, frank. i appreciate your sentiments and very much agree.

I looked over what pique wrote and what I wrote in answer. I have no personal disrespect for her for what she says. This is still America and I will passionately defend anyone's right to say whatever they think even if I completely disagree. But I won't retract what I said about the unrealistic views of people who have no realistic experience with intelligence gathering or of how real business must sometimes be conducted around the world and yes I am saying that I do have this experience. I'll say no more. If anyone thinks that I view the present situation or what must be done with any glee, then I am apprizing them now that I do not. There are times when severe matters require severe solutions. I'll refrain from making any statements that could be construed as attacking anyone personally, however I reserve the right to try to improve everyone's consciousness with more realistic information about the world we all live in.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has announced a revised estimate of fatalities in the attack on the World Trade Center at 20,000+! The mayor of New York has ordered 16,000 body bags. I reiterate, this is war!

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: David Burton ]

Hi all,

And now, to break up the discussion with a sweet anecdote:

In 1997, I traveled to the former Soviet Union, to the middle of nowhere, Russia, as a Christian missionary. My church had (and still has) a "sister church" relationship with the small churches of Saransk, which sprouted the year before. Despite the years of the Cold War, I found the Russians warm and hospitable and I cried my eyes out when I left. I kept in touch with my interpreter, who at the time was a college student. She's now a professional interpreter for a Beligium-owned brewery based in her home town (isn't capitalism great?). Despite many of the older Russian's pessimism and impatience about their current conditions, I found the young people hopeful and willing to sacrifice their generation for a better future that would allow them to earn a living in proportion to their work output. Oh, there were (still are) plenty of problems. My interpreter's uncle, who owned a small photo developing shop, "disappeared" for a couple of days after refusing to pay the local mafia for "protection." (He reappeared a couple of days later, bruised. He then shut down his store).

I continue to communicate with the woman I call my sister primarily by email. But on Tuesday night, I got a call at 10:15 p.m. First the pregnant pause as the international connection was made, then her precious voice. She wanted to know how I was (shell-shocked). And she especially wanted me and everyone to know that not only she but everyone she knows is deeply saddened by what has happened. She said, "We feel very bad for America. We take it personal."

We not only need to unite as a country. Freedom and democracy-loving people need to unite everywhere. It's time to take a stand for what is right.

penny

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Penny ]

this is war mongering. i don't know where you get your figures, dave. they just announced on the news that no one has announced any estimates of how many people died in the WTC.

as for defending our civilized society, how civilized is a society that shoots out the windows of u.s. mosques?

and what are your mysterious credentials that give you the authority to say that hypocrisy is good foreign policy? there are terrorism experts all over the news saying that a retaliation could be the worst possible choice we could make, that it would only breed more terrorism.

thanks for your story, penny. i'm sure that is true that people in the free world stand in solidarity with us.

there have been such incredible stories of selflessness. tonight on NPR a woman called in to tell of how a total stranger gave her her car keys so she could drive home to texas from california. the stranger said, "i can walk to work. i don't need my car."

i did go practice the piano tonight. it was very soothing to have an outlet for all this feeling. i played some pieces as requiems and gestures of love towards those who died.

i think it would be very helpful for us to have a national day of mourning, and very soon.

I don't know what news you're watching, but it sure isn't here in America - or you're hearing what you want to hear, no offense. ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox News, the Drudge Report, Newsmax, WorldNetDaily, and the Associated Press are all reporting the death toll is going to top 30,000. And on all of these news agencies, the terrorist experts I've heard interviewed all agree that the terrorists should have been blown to bits years ago, and that what is needed now is to hunt them down and kill them. I have yet to hear a single one say that retaliation will only breed more terrorism. In fact, it was pointed out on several programs that retailiation is *exactly* what is needed, and they cite the following as proof that retaliation works - back in the early 80s when Kahdafi was bombing discos in West Germany where American soldiers frequented, we sent bombers over and blew up his palaces, killing many of his relatives, including his infant granddaughter - we focused square in on Khadafi and hit him where it hurt him the most - and the result of this retaliation was that Mohamar Khadafi pretty much ended his terrorist activities as a result, and hasn't been a problem since.

I don't want to make you mad, or get into an argument with you. But you simply aren't dealing with the facts. This is not just a criminal act. It is an act of war. As soon as we have identified those responsible for this, our government should swiftly and without warning launch a full scale attack on the guilty, and kill every last one of them standing right there in their shoes. And if a country or a government is aiding or protecting the guilty, we should level the place.

And before you tell me I am a warmonger who is out of step with America, all those news agencies I listed are also reporting that 94% of Americans agree right down the line with me. The entire country is demanding the guilty pay, and pay dearly. Enlistments in the military are up 4 fold, even retired military and those who have already served in the past are asking to be allowed to rejoin the military in huge numbers.

War was declared when the first plane hit the first tower. Countries all over the world have lined up on the side of America. Even China and Russia are in favor of swift and massive retaliation. And there *will* be a massive military attack on those who are guilty. The death toll in the WTC alone is over 30,000. This doesn't count the victims on the planes, or the nearly 200 who died at the Pentagon.

I watched this tragedy unfold from start to present. I watched live the 110 story towers plummet to the earth. And I watched the Palestinians on the West Bank celebrating upon receiving news of the thousands upon thousands of American CIVILIAN lives that had just been lost.

Anyone that is not angered by this is not human, and certainly not American. Even people abroad are horrified and sickened by this. There is simply no justification for such an act.

This has gone on too long. So far our dealings with people such as bin Laden have been somewhat of slaps on the wrist. I see this as more than ample reason to exterminate this man and his followers. It's very much time to act. Anyone who could possibly remain indifferent, let alone celebratesuch blatant disregard for human life cannot be human themselves. The time for diplomacy with these people is over, and it is time - no it is PAST time to rid ourselves of these creatures. I am completely in favor of Bush's vow to make no distinction between the perpetrators and those who harbor them. I have no doubt that the U.S. government will do what is necessary in retaliating and dealing with these wastes of oxygen. I see no alternative.

I value and respect the opinions of others, but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them. Agree or no, these are MY opinions, and I ask you to do the same for me.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

By the way pique, I suppose we should have just let Pearl Harbor go without retaliation too? Our current situation is just as much an act of war. If we do nothing we appear weak and soft, and become targets. I wish our nation to be bullied no longer. If there were no laws that punished theft, why would people just stop stealing? It's time to bring an iron fist down and tell terrorists everywhere we mean business. You mess with the bull you get the horns.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

This was forwarded to me so I thought I'd do my part and forward it
on hoping that it will uplift you in this time of tragedy...


TRIBUTE TO AMERICA


The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

Its subject is "America: The Good Neighbor"

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
> remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of
his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as
the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy
were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts
to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the
Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Doctrine pumped billions of dollars
into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over
the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them?
Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk
about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake of 1989.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb
their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

Israeli intelligence has said that the Iraqi government funded the attacks coordinated by bin Laden. Big surprise here, if true.

It's time to go after the terrorist cells in a long, drawn out counterterrorist offensive. It's also time to smash the command and control of countries that have offered assistance to the terrorists, and have used them as unofficial vehicles to do the bidding that they're unable, or too cowardly, to do openly. We need to retaliate against these nations in measures exponentially greater than the damage that their assistance caused on our soil, literally destroying the framework of the nation, if necessary. This is the only lesson that animals like this will understand. You take my eye, I'll take your life. You kill one of us, we'll kill ten of you. You kill 12,000 of us, and we'll erase you from the planet. This is how you end state-sponsored terrorism.

You think that's tough talk? Tell it to the survivors of those who were murdered in the World Trade Center. Tell it to the other people and their families around the country who go to work every day, wondering if they're next.

Dwain

I am in total agreement, Dwain. These people are unable to be negotiated with, and it's about time we crack down in ways that will make anyone think twice about doing this to us again.

Ideas we far away can do:

Give blood.

Pray.

Raise the flag, half-mast if you can.

Support our troops when called upon.

Check in on the families of FBI agents and police officers everywhere. They're working overtime. Cook a meal. Help with child care.

Buy U.S. stocks when the market opens.


On that last point, I reprint an email from an investment userlist to which I subscribe:


"Don't let the terrorist win. They want to disrupt our economy and cause
panic in our markets. When the markets open tomorrow or on Monday BUY.

As we all know, there are only good and bad men and women in this world. Bad
men did this act. It was not the nationality of the perpetrators that caused
this disaster, but the fact that they were evil. This said I call on all in
the world. Including those of the Arab nations to buy US stocks when the
market opens. Since they have no respect for human life the killing of the
people in the World Trade Center was only a means to an end and meant nothing
to them. What they want is to shake the American people and the U. S.
economy. We can thwart this plan when the markets open.

I therefore call on all peace loving people around the world to BUY when the
markets open.

Thanks,

Rich"

penny

larry,
i don't want to get into an argument with you, either. but i do hold to my right to respectfully disagree, or to seek common ground.

the news reports i am watching and listening to are the new york times, the washington post, the boston globe, cnn, msnbc--all on the web. on television i've spent long hours watching nbc and pbs. on the radio i've been listening to npr/bbc radio.

it was about midnight last night that nbc announced that no one has calculated the number of deaths or is willing to make an estimate, the will only say "in the thousands."

if there are news reports saying it was 30,000 people, i'd have to say, as a journalist myself, that they are taking a wild guess and trying to sensationalize the news. nobody yet knows how many died, at least, as of last night. and since the last reports i heard from new york were that they may have to call off the search and rescue effort because of the dangers to the crews, i doubt very much they have new information this morning, though i haven't yet checked.

NPR and PBS have been broadcasting reports from Britain and those have included experts on terrorism who caution us that retaliation is a dangerous course of action. the broadcasts from abroad have repeatedly emphasized the failure of u.s. intelligence, for that matter, tom brokaw on nbc has repeatedly used the phrase "a stunning failure of u.s. intelligence." the broadcasts from britain have also included many experts who advise the u.s. to reexamine its foreign policy.

who is hearing only what they want to hear?

i have no doubt that most americans agree with you. it is a very upsetting time, and people are very emotional, including myself. i think even so, it is important to step back and think rationally and strategically about what the best course of action should be. colin powell seems to be the only member of the administration who is willing to do that, and is advising caution. and he is not getting much support, i understand.

i have no sympathy for the palestinians whatever, and didn't before they started dancing in the streets celebrating our agony. their behaviour is utterly repugnant to me. most of my family was instrumental in founding israel, and some played key roles in resettling the jews from the death camps after the holocaust. the tales of the devastation there are legend in my family. but most of us now just want peace. and the actions the u.s. should take should work towards that goal.

lives are sacred everywhere. not just in the u.s. and i cannot help but fear the pain and heartbreak we will cause other mothers, brothers, sisters, daughters in other parts of the world if we do not proceed with a true sense of justice, as opposed to hasty revenge. do we want to cause more agony and suffering? is that justice?

Here is an excerpt from a news editorial i read this morning:

> So, the question is which civilians will be unlucky enough to be in the way of
> the U.S. bombs and missiles that might be unleashed. The last time the U.S.
> responded to terrorism, the attack on its embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in
> 1998, it was innocents in the Sudan and Afghanistan who were in the way. We
> were told that time around they hit only military targets, though the target in
> the Sudan turned out to be a pharmaceutical factory.
>
> As I monitored television during the day, the talk of retaliation was in the
> air; in the voices of some of the national-security "experts" there was a
> hunger for retaliation. Even the journalists couldn't resist; speculating on a
> military strike that might come, Peter Jennings of ABC News said that "the
> response is going to have to be massive" if it is to be effective.
>
> Let us not forget that a "massive response" will kill people, and if the
> pattern of past U.S. actions holds, it will kill innocents. Innocent people,
> just like the ones in the towers in New York and the ones on the airplanes that
> were hijacked. To borrow from President Bush, "mother and fathers, friends and
> neighbors" will surely die in a massive response.
>
> If we are truly going to claim to be decent people, our tears must flow not
> only for those of our own country. People are people, and grief that is limited
> to those within a specific political boundary denies the humanity of others.
>
> And if we are to be decent people, we all must demand of our government -- the
> government that a great man of peace, Martin Luther King Jr., once described
> as "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" -- that the insanity stop
> here.
>
> Mr. Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at
> Austin.

Why are we arguing about how many people may be dead? Is it really going to change our response if only a couple hundred die versus tens of thousands. The terrorists targeted our landmarks -- our president even! If the numbers of dead are small, then we are very blessed indeed. But that doesn't change the facts that 12 to 30 terrorists boarded commercial jets, commandeered them into civilian areas and targeted our president!

BTW, only 80-something bodies have been found YET. This just in from the wires, according to the companies that used to be in the WTC, more than 4,000 employees are missing. And NBC reported that the K9 units are overwhelmed with the smell of human flesh (sorry for the graphic description).

penny

it is wrong to broadcast numbers that have no basis in fact and serve only to inflame people even more. reporting that 4,000 people are unaccounted for is a very far cry from claiming that 30,000 people died! how are we to rely on our news sources for any information if we can't trust them to be accurate about something like this? perhaps our response won't be affected by this particular fact, but some other "fact" could make all the difference in the world.

My heart is still bleeding for the greatest country in the world. Someone mailed me this. I feel obligated to share with my piano friends here. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to do so on the forum. If not, Frank, delete my post.

--------------------------------------------
A little history about this article.
Sinclair wrote it in the early 80's


America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were breaking

down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and
never even get a thank you for the things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can
and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until
this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American
that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Stand proud, America

-Dave Reuss
Desktop Services

Penny, I agree, the exact number surely is irrelevant when we're talking about terrorism within our own borders. The leveling of our national monuments with our own commercial airliners. Killing civilians without warning. All with the implicit message that we can do this at any time, and you can never be sure when it will happen again. How can it be possible to "sensationalize" these brutal attacks beyond what they already are?

pique, don't get me wrong. I am of a similar opinion that many of these monsters we deal with our of our own making, specifically thru lawless and unaccountable covert operations done in the interest of "national security." But now that the monster is here, in our own country, threatening our freedom, it's not a time to place blame. We must deal with it. I'm of the opinion that the best way to do this is by all of us presenting a united front behind our leaders in the interest of national strength. To do otherwise would be to weaken our national fortitude and is no doubt exactly what the terrorists want to have happen.

We all differ in political ideology, and last week these differences were very important to all of us in regards to our leadership and the direction of the country. This week we are all simply Americans! Americans who do not want our children to grow up blanketed in fear that they can be killed at any moment by random acts of terrorism.

For what it's worth. Hope you agree.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: wghornsby ]

i appreciate your post, wg, and the sentiments behind it. i would like to propose that we as a people and a nation are strong enough to admit complexity and ambiguity into our discussions and our view of the world without jeopardizing our position or our options.

i sense from what you are saying that the general feeling is that if we question ourselves, we weaken ourselves. my personal experience is just the opposite. self-questioning and the willingness to ask hard questions and look at complexity, admit ambiguity, is a sign of great stregnth. i think it strenghtens us as a people, and certainly leads to better choices.

if we refuse to do this because we don't want to be confused by the facts, we may be doomed to making some very bad choices. i fail to see how our nation, our people, are served by turning the world and our tragedy into black-and-white. seeing the shades of gray and facing them takes fortitude and integrity.

we still lack a lot of information. this isn't like pearl harbor--we don't really know who the enemy is. those planes did not have arab or japanese flags on their wings. it could be a situation that requires a great deal of diplomacy. there are recent reports that the terrorist cell may have originated from germany. are we going to bomb germany because they harbored these people?

have we also even considered the possibility that everyone who was ever involved in this scheme died in the crash? what if there is no one to retaliate against?

i believe that a strong america is one that is willing to examine its institutions and make them better. i love this country very much. there could be no one more typically american than i am, in the sense of loving liberty. i think it is very american to exercise one's right of free speech, to think independently, to contribute to the exchange and diversity of ideas. i do not see how we are served as a nation by all of us seeing the world exactly the same way, or by coercing those who think differently than we do into silence.

we can be completely united as a people, and yet have debate about how this tragedy should be viewed. one does not have to undercut the other. it is understood that, especially at this time, this nation is one family. do we want to be an open and healthy family, or a dysfunctional one? a healthy family allows its members to speak freely, even if that leads to disagreement. that doesn't mean we love each other any the less or don't "stand together."

i just received and signed a petition addressing president bush. here is the text, which i think expresses my views more eloquently than i have:

"Dear Friends:
A great tragedy has befallen our nation. A catastrophe that leaves
none of our lives untouched. Many innocent lives were lost due to a
senseless act of terror and violence. Although this horrific event
may outrage many, and rightly so, it cannot be justified or corrected
through more violence. Another senseless act in retaliation will not
repair the damage done, nor bring back those who were lost. It will
only perpetuate a violent, barbaric cycle fueled by hatred and
ignorance. The perpetrators of these crimes must be caught and brought
to justice, but without the continued loss of innocent life.

President Bush,
We the undersigned encourage you to take responsible, peaceful action
in bringing the terrorists to justice. Please seriously consider the
negative ramifications of continued killing and perpetuating the cycle
of violence. Although many lives have already been lost, MANY MORE CAN
STILL BE SAVED."

if any of you would like to sign this petition, let me know and i'll send it to you.

Remember, I'm the one who suggested a moderated forum . . .

"pique" --

How many dead, how much suffering is required for your outrage?

Your first reaction appears to be to blame America first .... NOTHING justifies the terroristic murder of 5,000 or more innocent civilians.

We know who the enemy is: militant islamic fundamentalists, including Bin Landen and others who are backed, supported, and funded by Syria, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, and others.

They want to kill us. They want to destroy our way of life, our freedom, and our democracy.

If they had the chance, they would kill you, your husband, and everyone in your family and then dance in the streets of Palestine.

WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK.

I regret the need to be brutal, but the lesson of September 11 is that this is no longer theory, this is no longer a commentary on NPR, this is no longer the editorial pages of the New York Times: IT CAN HAPPEN HERE.