Piano World Home Page Forums General Discussions 9/11 - - Never Forget On a day like this.........

Pique,
You've got your head up your *** sooo far it's pathetic. You KNOW what you can do with your petition!

Unfortunately, many have the idea that the people who did this are like us deep down. THEY AREN'T. Examine their actions. Examine the reactions of multitudes across the Middle East. They are different through and through.

Pique, you are right though that we need to question ourselves. We need to question the way we've dealt with these people for the past 30 years and see that appeasement, compassion, and aid has done nothing but intensify their hatred for us. They understand strength. It's time that we finally show them some.

I suggest that you might want to read the article "Why They Hate Us"
http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pryce-jones100101.shtml

Wow, I knew you journalists tended to be a little liberal, but you really scare me, Pique. I shutter to think what the last 55 years would have been like on this whole PLANET if the USA in 1941 was full of people like you! Unbelievable. Does the name Chamberlain mean anything to you? We have to stamp this out now, and it won't be easy or pretty. Freedom is very much at stake here. BTW, experts in Germany (according to CNN.com) claim that up to 1,000 Muslim extremists are living in Hamburg, raising money for the evildoers. To answer your question, NO we don't bomb Germany - we seek their cooperation, demand their cooperation if necessary, in handing these people over as potential accomplices. Wake up please.

Sorry pique, I won't be signing that petition. I do not believe in peace at any cost; rather, I believe that appeasement for peace only gurantees its loss. There are things worth fighting for.

Dwain

BTW, here's a link to the original script of the 1973 Gordon Sinclair editorial http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/ccf/news/unique/am_text.html

Both of the above quotations are altered versions that have circulated on the internet for years. You can even find this on the Urban Legends Reference Pages
www. snopes2.com

America and its allies must deal their enemies NOW a card that would make all bombs and grenades of the second world war look like a 'handshake among good old pals'.
There is no middle ground left to pussyfoot.

brad,
when or where did i ever say i was not outraged? i think i said just the opposite.
and where did i say that this tragedy could ever be justified? you are not reading what i wrote.

eldon,
thanks for your erudite (not) commentary. i seem to remember there was a call here for civility and mutual respect. if there was to be a moderator on this forum they should remove your post for not following those guidelines. i've said nothing to attack you personally, and there is no call for you to make personal attacks. just because you don't agree with someone else's viewpoint doesn't make it ok for you to be insulting.

dt,
you are right, i believe that all human beings are basically the same. i disagree with you that others from different nations or belief systems are somehow less than human.

i've shared my views and said my peace. if there is anyone else here who agrees with me, they might be too afraid to speak up at this point, having seen the reception i've received. that is too bad. this is an open forum, and no one who expresses themselves in a respectful way should be silenced by personal attacks or condemnation.

and if no one else here agrees with me, and this forum is a good representative sampling of general public sentiment, which it may well be, i really fear for this country.

fortunately, i know i'm not alone.

thanks, piano world, for a forum to exercise my rights of free speech. perhaps there are those who aren't posting here who read what i wrote with more thoughtfulness than those who are posting here with bombast.

No, really, I'm not saying that all. Believe me, no one is more "shades of grey" than me and I never accept what is presented to me (be it the media, our leaders, etc.) without questioning to get to the motives beneath. I resist being an unthinking member of the flock and I agree with you that normally that's a very good thing. I'm only suggesting to you that now is not the time for it. I abhor violence and war but I'm going to stand behind the President regardless of what comes in an effort to assist in the united front that the terrorists cannot break. My hope is that among a country of zealous supporters and jaded cynics and everyone in between, the circumstances of such clearly defined black-and-white evil can unite us in a strong sense of nationalist pride and a sense of purpose to ultimately restore our security.

I believe I said that they are "different." Being different in ones core beliefs holds no implication of being less human. To make such an inference is very revealing.

the implication of your post, DT, was that since they are different from us, it is ok to kill them. since human life is sacred, in my book, that is saying they are sub-human.

If anybody could find a bag of tea in the rubble of the New York towers or the crashed airplanes: would he please come forward and serve it to those who appear to be in
"tea-time-discussion-mood" at this time?

If we get lucky, perhaps Bin Laden comes forward and personally likes to join in?

I'm told he may even offer his own 'point of
view' and 'valid'opinions. Anything goes.

The point was that since they are different from you they need to be dealt with differently, with strength rather than appeasement. No value judgment was implied nor intended.

Since they killed innocent westerners without a second thought, they must have considered those people less than human, right? You hold life sacred and obviously consider that a sign of humanity. These people didn't. Ergo, they lack humanity. Q.E.D.

I didn't think it would happen but you've convinced me. These people and their supporters are less than human and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

By golly, it is tea time. See you tomorrow.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: DT ]

Pique, I will not be signing that petition. Just capturing and punishing the masterminds behind this is not a wise decision in my opinion. Making a martyr of these terrorist leaders is not a good idea, considering the numbers of fanatics that support and follow, even revere, these leaders. And I think we know who the enemy is. Many victims on the doomed planes identified the hijackers during cell phone calls to loved ones on the ground. That to me is rather convincing evidence. Fanatics care nothing for diplomacy or negotiating. They must be exterminated by means of severe retaliation. I respect your opinions Pique, and you have every right to them, but with all due respect I think you are living in a fantasy world if you think it can be that easy and bloodless. Time will tell, and I certainly hope these people are dealt with severely.

Josh

Dear pique,

I think you mistake the galvanic anger of the American people for bombast. These are not mere words - these are the underpinnings for a sea change in how America views the world and how it responds to terrorism.

The President has stated that "this is the first war of the 21st century". I believe him. And in war, collateral damage of innocents is tolerated, but not encouraged by civilized societies. So I hope there are no more casulties except those that are absolutely necessary.

But these barbaric rats have cast the die. They have started this tragic cascade. They have sown the seeds, now let them reap the whirlwind.

I think I speak for most Americans when I say that action is needed, and it is needed soon. If innocent lives are lost in other countries, it is surely sad, but a price of war. pacifism is not what we need, what we do need is intelligent militarism. God bless American, and the world for that matter.

some of you seem to be casting me as a defender of the terrorists and their supporters. i don't understand how i could have conveyed that impression from what i have written. it certainly could not be further from the truth.

my concern is that those who AREN'T responsible for these atrocious acts would nevertheless pay for them with their lives, just because they are arabs or moslems, or live in a particular country (especially since there is no one particular country that is so far identified with these acts). the moslems in seattle are already paying. that is wrong. see this story:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134340989_mosques13m.html

this is no longer 1941. it is a very different world now. we have nuclear weapons in the wrong hands. we have an entire culture in certain parts of the world that fosters suicide missions. war is a very different enterprise now than it was back then; it sounds like some of you are feeling a lot of nostalgia for that time, but we don't live in that time.

as for the mistake we made in the Persian Gulf war of not eliminating the leaders who foment this kind of aggression, i actually agree with you. i count it as a major failing of Bush the First that he didn't wipe out the leader of Iraq. while he was going about the business of bombing innocents, why didn't he hit the target? what then was the point of all those lost lives?

as for what i have written here, i don't think i am being heard; and perhaps no one here is yet ready to hear what i have to say. i'm leaving town for a few days and won't be near the news or the computer, (thankfully!) i wish all of you well. i hope we all come through this stronger and more united. it is still incomprehensible to me, the load of grief.

Pique,
According to a recent Norman Schwarzkopf sp?) statement, American and Allied pilots during the Gulf War took incredible pains to only hit military targets during the Gulf War. Even to the point of putting themselves at added risk. What exactly are you talking about? Something tells me that if we actually tried to take Baghdad with ground troops (to get Sadaam), you would have been screaming bloody murder. Talk about your civilian casualties! You can't have it both ways here, or anywhere.

I would quickly like to state that I agree with everything that pique has said so far. Alot of what I've seen on TV (ABC) is similar to what pique has mentioned. I listened to a former head of the CIA last evening stressing the enormous importance of how and when we strike back. He said it was the most important decision that will have to be made in a very long time. The result of hasty knee-jerk reaction could have devastating results for the world. The fact is we do not yet know who is behind these attacks this week. I also heard a women author of a book on terrorism saying to Charlie Rose that she believes Saddam Hussein is probably behind this attach. But we really don't know yet and when we find out I have no doubt the retaliation will be quick and hopefully, surgical. I am of the same mind as pique when it comes to killing innocent civilians--I'm totally opposed to it. For me there is never any circumstance to justify killing innocent civilians. When I have more time later, I'll add more comments.

Norbert wrote:


DT wrote:


May I suggest that by stooping to denigrating sarcasms you show yourselves as harboring an attitude which is basically un-American? Faced with a differing opinion you find it necessary to 'put down' those who have a strong counter opinion.

CrashTest wrote:


You are therefore willing to take the same line of thinking as these terrorists. For them it is war, and their argument is no different from what you have just used to justify the killing of innocent civilians.

Before I am mis-interpretted (I have just all the foregoing messages and see how pique has been grossly mis-read), let me state that I abhor terrorism and now that the shock is wearing off, feel sick and sad and very angry. But I also believe that as a human being and an American, it is my duty, as it is of our leaders, to use our heads in deciding how and at whom to retaliate. We have a golden opportunity to galvanize the entire world in an effort to combat terrorism at this time--EVEN LIBYA offered condolensed yesterday--Libya! By using our heads, not losing them, we may do a tremendous good for the world and that would be the greatest of all retaliations. Do not allow this heinous crime to perpetuate even more crime.

This isn't the "Bridge of Rehmagen"

The guys you're dealing with will light an atomic bomb in the middle of Manhatten.

When given the next chance.