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#704971 - 10/17/01 08:35 PM Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5567
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Here's an interesting approach.


If you happen upon someone who thinks the United States is wrong to use
force in ending terrorism, here is what to do to teach them why force is sometimes needed:

1)Approach the person who is talking about "peace" and saying
there should be, "no retaliation."

2)Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.

3)When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4)Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would
just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not
cause more violence." Or "America has brought it on itself, given its
imperialist actions and has angered the people of..."

5)When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

6)When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be
a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would,
"be awful and he should not cause more violence." In addition, tell him that
his "actions angered you and that he brought it on himself."

7)Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional
violence and that the reason you punched him was mostly his fault.

8)Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is
necessary to punch back.
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#704972 - 10/18/01 07:49 AM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Mike Pappadakis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 207
Loc: Doylestown, PA
I love it, Frank.

Regards,
Mike

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#704973 - 10/31/01 02:04 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
That's great! I love it, too (unfortunately so much I find myself wanting to actually try it on some people....)

Josh
_________________________
Josh

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#704974 - 10/31/01 04:26 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Yeah, punch him in the face .........

..but in this case...you gotta find the face!
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#704975 - 10/31/01 04:38 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Klavier Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 1
 Quote:
Originally posted by PianoWorld:

5)When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

...

6)When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be
a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would,
"be awful and he should not cause more violence." In addition, tell him that
his "actions angered you and that he brought it on himself."

[/b]


If you punch somebody in the face you are the agressor: you are not an innocent person.

The ordinary person in Afghanistan has done no harm to anybody.

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#704976 - 10/31/01 08:38 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
We're not hunting down the average person in Afghanistan...
_________________________
Josh

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#704977 - 10/31/01 08:43 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Josh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 155
Loc: Lexington, KY
In addition, remember that we aren't the aggressors. We did nothing of a violent nature to the Taliban government or even the Afghanistan people to prompt anyone to crash jets into our buildings and kill thousands of our people.

From what I have read, many Taliban fighters are hiding themselves and their weapons in densely populated areas, such as mosques, businesses, and even private residences. Washington has not struck these towns because they DON'T want to kill innocent civilians.
_________________________
Josh

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#704978 - 11/01/01 01:03 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Amen, Josh. Go Wildcats too.

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#704979 - 11/17/01 07:06 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
PianoWorld,

I'm afraid that, whilst I agree that retaliation is necessary to wipe out terrorism, I'm thankful that you're only in command of this webboard.

My problem with the war in Afghanistan is not the aims or motives of the U.S., but the methods: Cluster-bombing is about as p***-poor as it gets when it comes to separating the terrorists and their supporters from the civillians.

I'm in the UK and totally support the hunting down Bin Laden and any other terrorists, linked to him or otherwise, and the crushing of those organisations that support terrorism.

However, it would be interesting to see what reaction my country's government would get if it opted [now, in the past, or any time in the future] to use a similar air attack to suppress the Irish Republican Army. It would never happen - even if the IRA seized control of Northern Ireland, I still think it would never happen.

This begs the question as to why things happen differently in different parts of the world?

I readily admit I don't have a great political or anthropological mind, so I welcome anyone who can educate me (but preferably without "face punching" analogies).

[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: jazzyd ]
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#704980 - 11/17/01 11:11 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzyd:

My problem with the war in Afghanistan is not the aims or motives of the U.S., but the methods: Cluster-bombing is about as p***-poor as it gets when it comes to separating the terrorists and their supporters from the civillians.
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: jazzyd ][/b]



Well, I don't believe that the US is cluster-bombing areas where the militants are mixed in with the civilians. That, in fact, has been a problem that the US military has admitted to, and that the Taliban and al-Quaeda have exploited - that generally, we will not strike otherwise valid military targets when they are too closely mingled into the civilian population centers, and the enemy knows this. This is exactly why they have massed cetain fighters and equipment within and around mosques, schools, hospitals, etc.

I believe that the cluster bombing has only occurred in locales where the only things in the immediate vicinity were military targets - people or equipment, amassed to fight, or entrenched, and outside the cities or other locations where innocent civilian casualties were not generally likely.

To be honest, what has amazed me in the bombings is how much bombing there has been, and with relatively few stray bomb or missile strikes on unintended targets - following the reports coming from al-Jazeera, run through an English-Arabic translator, even if all the claims are true (which I strongly doubt), the loss of innocent lives has been remarkably little in relative terms. Even the refugees who escaped the areas of bombing and were massing on the Afghan-Pakistani border have attested to this fact.

I think that the English-IRA analogy would really only work if the IRA presented itself as an organized fighting force, amassed along a front out in a remote, uninhabited area of countryside.

Dwain

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#704981 - 11/18/01 02:41 AM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Dwain,

(Bear with me on this, as I'm trying to work this out for myself as much as form an opinion...)

Well, so long as the BBC has its facts right, civillians have been killed by the cluster-bombing. I feel that loss of innocent Afghan life significantly denigrates the cause we're pursuing over there, especially when lives have been lost through targeting errors (as has apparently been the case).

If there is uncertainty as to who might be underneath some of these bombs, I really feel we (the Allies) should be relying more on ground forces and intelligence, or if we must bomb, hold off until we KNOW what we're dropping bombs on. That's obviously easy for me to say sitting in the comfort of my home, but this is what our armies are for and I think the cause warrants it.

I appreciate that the Taleban will undoubtedly use every dispicable trick in the book at the expense of the people they govern[ed], but - and this is a view held by many Britains at the moment - I still can't help but feel that the US was very quick to bomb quite so hard, and that somewhere along the political line there isn't quite same reverence for Afghan life as we all have the victims of September 11.

This is what prompted my IRA analogy. You say that the IRA aren't quite so readily attackable, but I would suggest that if one were to equate Sinn Fein with the Taleban, issues of locality aside, the situation is not that far removed. I agree it's not quite the same, but you might look at it this way...

Whilst living in central London there's always been a nagging thought in the back of my mind that the IRA might one day make a bomb with my name on it - goodness knows I heard the Isle of Dogs one easily enough to know that the possibily is very real. And just as there is a great deal of anger in the States over the WTC attack, there has been anger over here for a very long time indeed.

Obviously you can never treat two different terrorist scenarios the same way, but in my simple head the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are no less guilty than Bin Laden. As such, if we are to take a hard line in Afghanistan, I would like us to take a similarly hard line in Northern Ireland and lock these people up where they belong. And if it's too much trouble for us to find all of them on our own, I would gladly welcome the US military to come and do it for us.

That might sound silly, but I feel that this "war on terrorism" should have started a long time ago and that, given the strong Irish interest in America we should have collectively tried to obliterate the IRA back in the 70's.

I hope that makes some sense.

Dave

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: jazzyd ]
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#704982 - 11/18/01 02:25 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Hi Dave (and thanks for volunteering the first name, I would have felt a little silly saying "hi jazzyd" \:\) )

I wanted to offer a few more thoughts. I'd be hard pressed to call them disagreements, though, I think in reality we're singing different parts of the same musical score, as it were.

 Quote:

(Bear with me on this, as I'm trying to work this out for myself as much as form an opinion...) [/b]


...me too!

 Quote:

Well, so long as the BBC has its facts right, [/b]


I think that, by and large, they do. I've become a big fan of several online British news outlets recently.

 Quote:

civillians have been killed by the cluster-bombing.
[/b]


I know that there have been civilian deaths and injuries, but I think that most of, again, the *relatively* small numbers, have been from missiles or bombs launched from great distance, usually relying on complicated guidance systems that are not 100% foolproof. The cluster bombing, which is what we're discussing, really didn't begin until we had some better intelligence and targeting assistance coming from troops actually on the ground and within visual range of the targets.

I don't mean to trivialize the civilian deaths and injuries at all, and I know that it doesn't matter much to the victim if one is killed by an errant cruise missile or a stray bomb during a carpet bombing sortie. But I also realize that while war is a terrible thing, it is also sometimes inevitable; and that in war, innocent bystanders are often killed. I wish it were otherwise. Since it can't be, our goal must be to (obviously) not target the innocent, and to take all rational steps possible while still waging war to avoid such deaths.


 Quote:

I feel that loss of innocent Afghan life significantly denigrates the cause we're pursuing over there,
[/b]


I agree with you, and that's why I think it's so important to take those steps to avoid them. You and I take this position probably more for reasons of humanity, but even if we were callous and had no regard for human life, it would be politically stupid to allow deaths of many innocents to occur.


 Quote:

If there is uncertainty as to who might be underneath some of these bombs, I really feel we (the Allies) should be relying more on ground forces and intelligence, or if we must bomb, hold off until we KNOW what we're dropping bombs on.
[/b]


I agree, and as regards carpet bombing, I think we are doing that, as much as can possibly be done. I think what this comes down to is the "saving one innocent life" debate...

As an easy example, you often hear it regarding some proposal for a new, expensive safety regulation: "If it saves even one life, it's worth it!" Well, of course that's nonsense. As much as we hate to openly admit it, we humans place a value on our, and others', lives every day. We can make, say, all automobiles as safe as armored personnel carriers, but no one would be willing to pay the price of the vehicle or its upkeep. And, if we did pay for the added safety, the money going to that can't go somewhere else, opening more people up to other dangers, resulting in no greater, or maybe even less, actual safety. We make a decision to accept some risk (the law of percentages that we won't be killed in an auto accident that we could have survived with all that armor)in return for a greater benefit (accessible, affordable personal transportation for us, and all others out there on the road). This is just one example, but in reality we all place a value of human life in many ways, every day.

...Which then brings us back to the war. Osama bin Laden is meeting with Mullah Omar and the remaining upper command of al Quaeda, and the US has the entire group in the crosshairs of a bomber. As fate would have it, a farmer comes along, riding right through the scene on a donkey. Should the US bomb anyway, even if it would result in the death of the innocent farmer who was in the wrong place at the wrong time? I think so. How about if it were not just the farmer, but his entire family of 10? Would eliminating the group, who if left unchecked would result in the deaths of many more than 10, be justifiable? Again, I think so.

 Quote:

That's obviously easy for me to say sitting in the comfort of my home, but this is what our armies are for and I think the cause warrants it.
[/b]


...and I know that sitting here it's easy for me to have the opinion I just shared, not being that poor innocent farmer.


 Quote:

I still can't help but feel that the US was very quick to bomb quite so hard, and that somewhere along the political line there isn't quite same reverence for Afghan life as we all have the victims of September 11.
[/b]


Well, I think you're right but not-so-right here. I think that in general, the US has high regard for innocent Afghan life, and that regard has been shown in - again - the relatively low frequency of civilian deaths compared to the amount of bombing.

However, we have infinitesmally small, if any, regard at present for Taliban and al-Quaeda lives; far, far less regard than we have for the victims of September 11. The victims of September 11 didn't spend the previous several years plotting the deaths of 5,000 innocent Afghans; it was indeed the other way around. So I do hold a higher regard for those, and all, US lives than I do for the lives of those responsible for the atrocities. And, I know this will sound a bit harsh, but it's true: while we do have a high regard for the lives of the innocent Afghans, we have a Constitutional obligation to defend US lives - not Afghan ones - and, unfortunately, that may result in the loss of innocent Afghan lives. I hate that reality, but I will neither deny nor apologize for it. We are fighting a war started by al-Quaeda, who the Taliban went to bed with, thinking they were helping their cause. Only later did they realize that they had actually lost control of their country, and now, the tail was wagging the dog. The problems faced by the Afghan people were brought about by the actions of the rulers of Afghanistan, not by the obligatory Allied retaliation for the atrocities.

Let me restate that: The responsibility for every single civilian death and casualty, for every destroyed hospital, for every levelled mosque, for every burned out home, and for every starving refugee, lies solely at the feet of al-Quaeda, who couldn't give a damn less about the Afghan citizenry, and cares only marginally more about their supposed Islamic faith; and with the Taliban, who tortured and abused its own people in its own special brand of terrorism, then enterred into a deal with the devil and sold out their own country to a band of terrorists even worse than themselves.


 Quote:

This is what prompted my IRA analogy. You say that the IRA aren't quite so readily attackable, but I would suggest that if one were to equate Sinn Fein with the Taleban, issues of locality aside, the situation is not that far removed. I agree it's not quite the same, but you might look at it this way...
[/b]


Yes, one might, and in fact, I do. I agree with you; I think the US has been two-faced on the issue of the IRA for years. I understand that the roots of this schizophrenia is due to the huge numbers of people here with ethnic backgrounds on both sides of the battle. Nevertheless, I think that it's despicable that many people in this country - and some involved in our government - have openly embraced IRA/Sinn Fein as just another political movement, equal partners at a negotiation table, etc. etc. It makes me sick that, in the name of ethnic pride for some nostalgic notion of a homeland that most of them have never even seen, some Americans have funnelled millions of dollars from the US to the IRA. I don't believe that fondness for the land of one's ancestors, and care for those living there, should translate into supporting terrorists. This in no way is meant to offend Irish-Americans (nor is it a justification for evey English action in Ireland). I understand their concern and sentiment, but when it extends to financing terrorism, it obviously goes too far. Maybe recent events will help to make that more apparent to many otherwise well-meaning, but mistaken, people in this country. A terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of the color of the skin or the headgear.


 Quote:

And just as there is a great deal of anger in the States over the WTC attack, there has been anger over here for a very long time indeed.
[/b]


Yes, we're newcomers to homeland terrorism. And yes, Americans are notorious for their lack of awareness of international affairs. I hope that the tragedy at least has the silver lining of teaching us/US to better understand and relate how different countries handle the same issue: England/IRA; Israel/PLO/Hezbolla; Russia/Chechnya; etc. etc. In the past, many here have had a bit of a "blinders" approach to the problem, employing an ivory-tower notion that all the world's problems can be solved at a gathering around a conference table (singing a verse or two of "Kumbaya" optional). With luck, these actions that have affected us on our own territory will wake at least some of these sleepers up to reality, wherever in the world the problem is. I hope that it will make clear that supporting terrorism, even if you think you support the ostensible political goal, in one location only makes it more likely in other locations.

There, now I'll take a breath. \:\)

Dwain

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#704983 - 11/18/01 02:32 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I just read that long post of mine, and for the record, I suppose I need to clarify that it wasn't "the other way around" as I typed it(i.e., _innocent Afghans_ plotting the American deaths), but rather, it was the work of al-Quaeda.

Dwain

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#704984 - 11/18/01 03:53 PM Re: Sometimes You Just Gotta Use Force
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi again Dwain,

Thanks very much for your reply.

I think it's essential for us - the people - to have some discussion about these issues rather than just "Tony and George" having dinner once in a while and deciding what the best thing is for all of us.

I hope I didn't cause any offence by my rather off the cuff remark about PianoWorld - I'm afraid I was a little bit riled by his post, which I thought was a simplification that does little to help resolve anything for those like myself who are still trying to understand what is a very complex situation, made all the more difficult by such a broad array of (well-informed and otherwise) perspectives and a great deal of emotion.

Regarding the last part of your reply, I have to say it's not my feeling that the US has failed to "wake up" to terrorism, or rather I think it's something for the American public to decide. I should have been more careful in my wording of the Irish-American interest in Northern Ireland affairs, for whilst international help is always welcome, by no means could I ever say that the American people have failed to help Britain in defeating the IRA. I seem to remember Bill Clinton got the US more involved while he was in power, for example.

What I feel should have happened is that the British government should have taken the initiative and asked for America's help in preventing any support/funding for the IRA in America the way many nations are now collectively doing for "global terrorism" now. And that there should have been some kind of joint unit set up between England, Ireland and America to help defeat what has been a very "successful" (for want of a better word) string of deaths caused by the IRA. There is also the issue of extreme Loyalists, who have also been responsible for deaths.

Phew, I think that's enough for one day!

Dave

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: jazzyd ]

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: jazzyd ]
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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