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#705061 - 06/17/02 09:22 AM Quote
Piano World Online   blank



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#705062 - 06/17/02 01:55 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
Nice quote. Really. But I don't really see the point of it.

The problem is that you can't arrange a meeting for all of them. The ones that didn't attend will then arrange a meeting for a few Americans.

The US had better prevent terrorism by removing the reasons for terrorism rather than the terrorists themselves. Cure the disease, not the symptoms.
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#705063 - 06/17/02 02:05 PM Re: Quote
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
What are the reasons for terrorism?

Derick
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Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705064 - 06/17/02 02:18 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
I don't know.

But people usually don't perform terrorist acts just for fun.

There would be no terrorism if there were no reasons for it, would it?
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I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#705065 - 06/17/02 02:19 PM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
The terrorists ARE the disease. You can try and figure out why they do what they do as some sort of academic excercise if that pleases you but I will opt for the best way to deal with them. That is to take them out.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705066 - 06/17/02 02:33 PM Re: Quote
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
mrenaud,

You said:

 Quote:
There would be no terrorism if there were no reasons for it, would it? [/b]
You said the US must do something to stop terrorism before it starts. I'm curious as to what you think the US should do.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705067 - 06/17/02 02:48 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
Ok, I'll tell you:

The US is the most powerful country on this planet, military-wise as well as economy-wise.

Well, the US surely don't seem to care much about other countries. That's why they're sticking their nose into things which are not their business.

Now, there are people who don't like other countries telling them what's good or bad. And of course they want to prevent these countries from doing that. And if they don't have the means to achieve a diplomatic (futile anyway in the case of the US), economic or military victory, guess what they'll do?
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#705068 - 06/17/02 02:55 PM Re: Quote
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
mrenaud,

Can you elaborate on the statement below. I'm interested in specifics. No flames. I want to try and understand where you are coming from.

One other question, do you think terrorism is an acceptable means of dealing with a country such as the US?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705069 - 06/17/02 03:19 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
An example of the foreign policy of the US is the new law about collaboration with the International Court in Hague (sp?). The decision not to collaborate anymore undermines the authority of the court.
The reason for that is to prevent US soldiers from being sentenced by that court for war crimes committed in Afghanistan.

Another example would be the Kyoto protocol about air pollution. The US don't accept it anymore because it doesn't suit their needs.

I mean that the US often don't collaborate with others if they don't like it. They don't need to because of their power.

A while ago, there was the case about the Lost Accounts which was handled by US courts. In fact, Swiss courts could have handled these as well. Nobody knows why US courts had to do it. But economic pressure made sure that US courts could handle these. The result: the money on those accounts is paid out to the rightful heirs, and some publicity (and a lot of $) for Ed Fagan.
In fact, the US themselves had nothing to do with it, yet they insisted on handling the case.

This is why I don't like US foreign policy very much. They could just keep out of things which are not their business, but they don't. Maybe I'm biased.

About terrorism: No, terrorism is neither good nor acceptable. At least that's how we see it. But that looks different to these people. To them, terrorism is a way to make themselves being heard. They have nothing to lose anyway, so why not?

Don't get me wrong, I never approved of terrorism and never will. I'm just saying that terrorism is never done for no reason.
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#705070 - 06/17/02 03:58 PM Re: Quote
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
One more question...

What, if anything, has the US done that has been a benefit to the world?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705071 - 06/17/02 04:03 PM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
A couple of observations:

If you are referring to the International War Crimes Tribunal, yes, we do oppose this imposition on our sovereignty in allowing any third world tin pot dictatorship to bring our soldiers up on whatever charges enough of them could trump up. This effectively supercedes the authority of our own constitution.

Kyoto? No other country WANTS to ratify Kyoto. The only ones to have done so are Bulgaria (I think) and Japan and maybe a collection of a few other minor entities. No major European power wants to touch this thing with a barge pole because they know what it would do to their economies. They will, however, hypocritically scold the US for not doing so comfortable in the knowledge that our refusal means they will never have to address the issue. No one in the Scientific community will even suggest that the Kyoto treaty would have more than a trivial effect on climate change. Most who are honest understand that global warming is caused by the sun and human activity has a minimal, if any, effect. Kyoto is just another way to advance the socialist agenda by stealthy means. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

Terrorists can murder innocent people for whatever reason they choose but it is still terrorism and their reasons don't matter. Kill enough of them and they will have a good reason for finding other means to advance their causes.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705072 - 06/17/02 04:24 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
If you are referring to the International War Crimes Tribunal, yes, we do oppose this imposition on our sovereignty in allowing any third world tin pot dictatorship to bring our soldiers up on whatever charges enough of them could trump up. This effectively supercedes the authority of our own constitution.[/b]
Well, war crime is war crime, no matter how you turn it around. The fact that US soldiers did it makes it no better.
And in fact, when NATO forces bombed Yugoslavia, they did it to throw over Milosevic's dictatorship. He was then accused of various crimes by the Tribunal. So far ok. The US didn't have anything against it. Now that US soldiers are accused, you suddenly don't support the Tribunal anymore. How interesting...

 Quote:
Kyoto? No other country WANTS to ratify Kyoto. The only ones to have done so are Bulgaria (I think) and Japan and maybe a collection of a few other minor entities. No major European power wants to touch this thing with a barge pole because they know what it would do to their economies. They will, however, hypocritically scold the US for not doing so comfortable in the knowledge that our refusal means they will never have to address the issue. No one in the Scientific community will even suggest that the Kyoto treaty would have more than a trivial effect on climate change. Most who are honest understand that global warming is caused by the sun and human activity has a minimal, if any, effect. Kyoto is just another way to advance the socialist agenda by stealthy means. A wolf in sheep's clothing.[/b]
Really? So why DO they care about the success of Kyoto?
And you seem to be really sure that human influence has no effect on global warming. While it isn't proven that it has any effect, it isn't proven that it has no effect either.

 Quote:
Terrorists can murder innocent people for whatever reason they choose but it is still terrorism and their reasons don't matter. Kill enough of them and they will have a good reason for finding other means to advance their causes.[/b]
Oh, but US soldiers are allowed to execute 3000 Taliban soldiers they could have arrested just as well? And they shouldn't even be taken to court? How interesting.
And killing them will solve it?
Even more interesting.
Actually, it will only prove their point that they'd be better of without the US.

And if you really read my post, you'd have noticed that I stated that I don't approve of terrorism.
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#705073 - 06/17/02 05:02 PM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Well, war crime is war crime, no matter how you turn it around. The fact that US soldiers did it makes it no better.
And in fact, when NATO forces bombed Yugoslavia, they did it to throw over Milosevic's dictatorship. He was then accused of various crimes by the Tribunal. So far ok. The US didn't have anything against it. Now that US soldiers are accused, you suddenly don't support the Tribunal anymore. How interesting...[/b]
Who said they did? Do you really think that all these third world dictators with an axe to grind against the US are going to accuse US soldiers of genuine war crimes. Of course not. They will fabricate any attrocity that suits them and revel in the circus that follows. I would be interested in hearing about the genuine "war crimes" that you believe US soldiers have committed. As far as Milosevic is concerned, I don't recognize the authority of a world court to try him either. The people of Yugoslavia (or its now fractured entities) have a greater interest in the fate of Milosevic than some world body.

 Quote:
Really? So why DO they care about the success of Kyoto?
And you seem to be really sure that human influence has no effect on global warming. While it isn't proven that it has any effect, it isn't proven that it has no effect either.[/b]
So, in science we must prove that something is not happening? That does not comport with the scientific method I am familiar with. What you said is correct. We are not sure that humans have a significant effect and the science, so far, does not support the hypothesis that it does. The reason there are those who care about the success of Kyoto is that it amounts to a gigantic transfer of wealth from developed countries to those that are less developed.

 Quote:
Oh, but US soldiers are allowed to execute 3000 Taliban soldiers they could have arrested just as well? And they shouldn't even be taken to court? How interesting.
And killing them will solve it?
Even more interesting.
Actually, it will only prove their point that they'd be better of without the US.

And if you really read my post, you'd have noticed that I stated that I don't approve of terrorism. [/b]
What Taliban soldiers did we execute? that is an interesting slant. We killed combatants in a war to stop those who were plotting (and carrying out those plots)our destruction. Are you suggesting that we should have sent some sort of police force over to Afghanistan with arrest warrants? Then, I suppose, we just proceed to place these (several thousand) armed and dangerous men under the protection of a friendly government under arrest. That is very funny. We have no more responsibility to take these individuals to court than we would have the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor.

If you read my post you will see that I never accused you of supporting terrorism.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705074 - 06/17/02 05:15 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Who said they did? Do you really think that all these third world dictators with an axe to grind against the US are going to accuse US soldiers of genuine war crimes. Of course not. They will fabricate any attrocity that suits them and revel in the circus that follows. I would be interested in hearing about the genuine "war crimes" that you believe US soldiers have committed. As far as Milosevic is concerned, I don't recognize the authority of a world court to try him either. The people of Yugoslavia (or its now fractured entities) have a greater interest in the fate of Milosevic than some world body.[/b]
Ok, so they accuse US soldiers of crimes. The US in turn says that they just made it up.
See, that's why it must be handled by an independent[/b] court.
And if the fate of Milosevic is just concerning the people, why even bother to bomb Belgrad? To help the poor people? Come on, don't tell me that.
As I've heard, one of the reasons for not supporting the Tribunal anymore is because it's "supporting terrorism, therefore endangering the lives of millions of Americans". When I read that I thought it was a joke. When I told my friends, they too thought it was a joke.
It's the fact that it's no joke which troubles me.

 Quote:
So, in science we must prove that something is not happening? That does not comport with the scientific method I am familiar with. What you said is correct. We are not sure that humans have a significant effect and the science, so far, does not support the hypothesis that it does. The reason there are those who care about the success of Kyoto is that it amounts to a gigantic transfer of wealth from developed countries to those that are less developed.[/b]
The problem is not that we don't know whether it's happening or not. The problem is that nobody knows why it's happening. And as long as we don't know why it's happening, every possible factor must be eliminated, one of which happens to be pollution caused by humans. Global warming or not, air pollution is not healthy anyway.

 Quote:
What Taliban soldiers did we execute? that is an interesting slant. We killed combatants in a war to stop those who were plotting (and carrying out those plots)our destruction. Are you suggesting that we should have sent some sort of police force over to Afghanistan with arrest warrants? Then, I suppose, we just proceed to place these (several thousand) armed and dangerous men under the protection of a friendly government under arrest. That is very funny. We have no more responsibility to take these individuals to court than we would have the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor.[/b]
See above.

 Quote:
If you read my post you will see that I never accused you of supporting terrorism.[/b]
No, you didn't. You got me there.
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#705075 - 06/17/02 05:32 PM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Ok, so they accuse US soldiers of crimes. The US in turn says that they just made it up. See, that's why it must be handled by an independent court.[/b]
And who says that this court will be independent? I am not prepared to assume that and, apparently, neither is my government. They have already expressed a desire to bring Israel up on charges of war crimes ignoring the obvious Palestinian terrorism. Hence the reference to the support for terrorism. We in America are not prepared to consign the fate of our soldiers to the tender mercies of such a court.

 Quote:
The problem is not that we don't know whether it's happening or not. The problem is that nobody knows why it's happening. And as long as we don't know why it's happening, every possible factor must be eliminated, one of which happens to be pollution caused by humans. Global warming or not, air pollution is not healthy anyway.[/b]
What you are suggesting is that we, basically, impoverish our economy in the hope that it may have some effect on global warming no matter how small. The cost benefit ratio does not seem to enter into your reasoning at all. As far as air pollution is concerned, the US has taken great strides in cleaning up its air. If you want to see real air pollution just go to China some time. Their's is incredible and they are exempt from Kyoto.

 Quote:
See above.[/b]
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705076 - 06/18/02 08:44 AM Re: Quote
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
mrenaud,

JBryan and I are never going to agree with your point of view. I don't think the US is perfect, but I hardly think it is the monsterous bully you make it out to be. There are many things the US has done to help the world time and time again yet we are constantly put down. There is no appreciation.

The lyrics from one song kept coming to my mind when President Bush announced that military action had begun in Afghanistan.

Let freedom ring,
Let the white dove sing.
Let the whole world know that today
is a day of reckoning.
Let the weak be strong.
Let the right be wrong.
Roll the stone away,
let the guilty pay,
It's Independence Day.

(Martina McBride; approx 1994)

I truly wish the President would pull all aid given to every foreign country, build a fortress around the US, build the Alaskan pipeline, and say to the rest of the word "see ya". You know as in "get our noses out of everyone elses business".

It would be interesting to see how long the rest of the world survives. I'm betting on 'not very'.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705077 - 06/18/02 01:20 PM Re: Quote
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
I had to think long and hard before posting this but it's necessary.

OK, so let the barrage begin....

It is said that human beings are an evolving species, and by this is usually meant some biological evolution, the proof of which is hard to find. But let's suppose that the evolution (I still have trouble with this word, also with words like instinct, intellectual, professional, etc.) we might hope for is social evolution, since it must be more than personal in order to survive more than one human lifetime. Surely then, some of us would attempt to find new pathways to encourage what we think of as "progressive" (another problem word for me) social trends. I think, although I'm not completely sure, that it was in this light that mrenaud posted these statements, hoping to find a "higher ground" from which to offer a "more enlightened approach" to the recent scourge of terrorism.

 Quote:
Originally posted by mrenaud:
Nice quote. Really. But I don't really see the point of it.

The problem is that you can't arrange a meeting for all of them. The ones that didn't attend will then arrange a meeting for a few Americans.

THE US HAD BETTER PREVENT TERRORISM BY REMOVING THE REASONS FOR TERRORISM RATHER THAN THE TERRORISTS THEMSELVES. CURE THE DISEASE, NOT THE SYMPTOMS.[/b]
Emphasis mine. I'll take them point by point.

"The US had better prevent terrorism." Is the United States uniquely responsible for doing this and if so why? Or is it the United States and the international Jewish community including Israel who should do this, against the rest of the world if need be? We will, if it comes down to it, but we would hope that the rest of the world sees it in their own best interests to help us.

"removing the reasons for terrorism" as if there are material reasons that can be salved, so as to relieve people who would be terrorists of their reasons for becoming terrorists? Appeasement, is that what you think will work? Assuming that mrenaud is French or knowledgeable of French history, he/she should know that appeasement has never worked very well. Why would it work here, with these people? Are they any better than the Europeans? Perhaps Rousseau thought so but he was quite clearly a dunce and worse.

"cure the disease, not the symptoms." So your answer boils down to the United States (and Israel and by implication every Jew in the world) appeasing these people by giving them everything they want and that will end terrorism? Look at what you propose, you and people like you. So you really think that tearing down our prosperity to share it with them, which by the way is an absurdity, since it can never be done exactly as social idealists with your relativistic thinking suppose, will cause the terrorists to cease being terrorists? Think again.

 Quote:
Originally posted by mrenaud:
I don't know.

BUT PEOPLE USUALLY DON'T PERFORM TERRORIST ACTS JUST FOR FUN.

There would be no terrorism if there were no reasons for it, would it?[/b]
Emphasis mine. No they don't. They perform terrorist acts because they have been trained to it and have been given an existential reality that predisposes them to act as terrorists.

The infection, disease is in the minds and HEARTS of the terrorists not in the minds and hearts of Americans and Jews. Europeans gave the Jews little choice but to form the state of Israel or face extinction. If you are French, are you aware that you owe your survival as a people and a culture to the Englishmen and Americans (and others including Canadians) who died on French soil to wrest your country back from the Germans, TWICE in the last 100 years? What was it that made the Germans feel they had to invade France? Did appeasement work with them?

If you have my point by now, then you understand that what is at stake is the form the next thousand years will take. Will we all become Moslem? If so then all women had better get used to being chattel and all children will be raised to hate all that is not Moslem. That is what appeasement means.

The West has been looking for moderation among the Moslem world and has found none. Nobody stands up because to do so makes them a target of some greater fanatic among the Moslems. Does it take an outside, infidel, force to clear this up for them or can Islam reform itself and become civilized? I know all too well that there is a cynicism that eats like a corrosive rot at French notions of civilization. They indulged Rousseau and his ilk, toppled their monarchy with Jacobin idealism and have never had anything like social stability ever since. For the rest of us, do not take offence when a Frenchman insults you or corrects your bad French. They loathe each other even more than they do you. Be that as it may, most Americans are still willing and hoping to see some moderation and conciliation from the Islamic world before it is too late.

The West has been more than patient with the Islamic world. It is not yet realized among most Moslems that while we value much that their religion and culture has given to the rest of the world, we are not about to have their culture and theology rammed down our throats by "convert or die" terrorism, and the Jews have had it "up to here" with attempts to annihilate them simply for being Jews. The land of Israel is theirs, has always been theirs, even though they were driven off it a few times. They are not going to give it up now. The rest of the world has given the Jews no alternative but to stand and fight and if need be take the whole world down with them.

What is the disease? Radical Islam and the terrorism it spawns. And occasionally the terrorism is Middle Eastern without being especially Moslem: as is the case with Saddam Housein who is not objectively a Moslem leader but a Bathist socialist who bears comparison with all the other totalitarian dictators down the corridors of time; Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. He must be eliminated for the good of his people and the rest of the world. This will have to happen. There is other information of a highly critical nature that indicates time is running out for him, information that if Saddam is not eliminated could spell disaster for the entire world.

Since terrorism is the disease and terrorists are the cause, what is the solution? Irradiation by all out war if necessary. No ethnic cleansing that has so far taken place will compare with the amount of blood that will be shed, unless those countries harboring them take active measures to irradiate them. And here I can't resist a word for our two-faced European friends: you who attempt to tell us that the death penalty is uncivilized, I have this warning for you, there are offences that are worth killing for and if it weren't so you and yours would all be someone else's slaves.

Is there a way out of all out war? Only these: the West must make it quite clear that

Another 9/11 type attack on ANY Western power will be considered a punishable act of war that will require the elimination of one or more of their cities and we wont care much if we have adequate proof either. THIS IS AMERICAN POLICY RIGHT NOW IF ANYONE HAS ANY IDEAS!

All Moslem leaders of good will who stand with us against terrorism will be supported. This is also American policy right now. We know that most Moslems do not trust non-Moslems. Well something has to give, either we will all become Moslems or you will have to trust us infidels. If not then ultimately there will be a war perhaps one to the finish.

And the land of Israel (including more of it than they presently occupy) is for the Jews and all others had better find another place to live. PERIOD!

We in the West prize democracy, the freedom to say, think and be whatever we want. This also means that we can CHANGE what we think, say and are from one day to the next. Some in other parts of the world think this is weakness. It is not, because our flexibility makes us able to be coldly rational and pragmatic when necessary, especially when it comes to war fighting. The West has been able to fight wars very effectively with very little manpower and consequent loss of life. We learned our lessons well on the battlefields of Europe between 1914 and 1918 and we aren't going to make those mistakes again.

Terrorism is efficient at scaring people into appeasement, which never works. If we have to take a coldly rational and pragmatic approach to the problem we will. The West is not responsible for the terrible material and social conditions around the world. We have not exploited anyone. All that is LIES aimed at salving our GUILT which was also cooked up and inappropriate.

One of the things that really makes me ANGRY is when someone tries to make me feel guilty for problems brought on by someone else. I wont have it and most of us in the West are not having it either. We deserve to have a better life than those who wont have one because we worked hard to get it. It's as simple as that. I wish we could export our work ethic and rational and pragmatic ethics everywhere, not just working hard but working SMART. But so much cultural rubbish stands in the way. Are we responsible for cleaning that up too? I don't think so.

What lies ahead may be a titanic struggle. Will we be radical Moslems or will we be free? The social evolution of the human race is at stake.
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#705078 - 06/19/02 03:13 PM Re: Quote
mrenaud Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
:rolleyes:

Originally I didn't intend to create such an angry climate. I didn't expect anyone to agree with me anyway.

To clear things up:

What I was trying to say, is: When terrorists become terrorists, it's not just for fun. If they hate the US, it's because they think the US is responsible for their low standard of life (or something similar, doesn't matter here). They did not just throw a dart arrow at a world map to find out which country to hate. I didn't say the US (or Israel) are responsible for terrorism. I didn't say that everything should be done what they want.
But war against terrorism doesn't work either. Israel occupied Palestinian cities. Did that stop terrorism? No, it didn't. In fact, it's even making the already bad situation even worse.
The reasons for the Israel-Palestina war are the governments on both sides. Both leaders are soldiers, not politicians. Starting afresh would be the best solution, I suppose.
Same with Afghanistan: The US bombed Afghanistan. The result: An already ruined country even more ruined, a few dead US and other soldiers, and the main goal (finding and arresting/eliminating Osama Bin Laden) still not achieved. He's probably laughing somewhere, happily planning his next big strike. War didn't quite work here either. Ok, the Taliban government has been overthrown, I didn't criticize that, in fact it's probably better for Afghanistan.

I also didn't say that the US is the source of all evil. I didn't say that they'd done no good. I just said that the US often stick their nose where it doesn't belong. That's what I criticized. Nothing else.

And about the Tribunal in Hague: I don't think that the matter about the US soldiers should go unresolved. What I wrote about war crimes was something a friend told me. He knows a lot about 9/11 and the events which are associated with it. I'll ask him about the details.
Anyway, if anything happened at all, it must be investigated. Why not by the International Tribunal?
I apologize if I didn't understand correctly, but it looks like you implied that it's a proven fact that US soldiers didn't commit any war crimes because they're US soldiers. Whether they actually did commit war crimes or not I don't know, but 9/11 is no carte blanche for the US army.

Sorry if I offended you. It looks as if I didn't make myself clear enough. I just wanted to add a different kind of opinion to the discussion. That's what a forum is for, isn't it?
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#705079 - 06/19/02 04:27 PM Re: Quote
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
mrenaud,

Of course your viewpoint is welcome, although not agreed with. Feel free to voice it.

I have a problem with the World Court. National sovereignty(sp?) should never be relinquished lightly. Their are some things in this world that are better without lawyers.

As to your point about what begets terrorism - I believe Islamic militant terrorism is the result of a stagnant society. A society that is dissatisfied with itself, and wants to go back to it's glorious past in order to find relevance. If we take away oil, what would the world miss if suddenly we woke up tomorrow and there was no more Saudi Arabia? Or Pakistan? Or Iran? The terrorists believe we of the West are all infidels, and many of their Muslim brothers have wandered off of the true path, and subsequently we all need to be dragged back to the first millenium, where the World is wonderful.

How to most effectively fight terrorism? Terrorism on a global scale must have state sponsorship. If Theodore Roosevelt was in the White House, I think the answer is obvious. Annihalate the sponsoring state, and the money and the possiblity of weapons of mass destruction dry up.
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#705080 - 06/19/02 04:36 PM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
mrenaud,

I disagree vehemently with practically everything you have said and, yes, I and most other of my fellow Americans are very angry but please do not misconstrue my anger to be directed toward you. You believe what you believe and I disagree. I direct nothing personal towards you and apologize if I left you with that impression.
_________________________
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#705081 - 06/19/02 07:14 PM Re: Quote
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Mrenaud,

Neither did I mean any personal offence, even though the tone of my last post was pretty angry. I still feel a white hot anger whenever I think about 9/11. It's a very good thing I was not president or who knows what we would be now, perhaps only a glowing cinder orbiting a third rate star.

I do not approve of a World Court, nor a United Nations for that matter, am not certain how a European Union will ever work. Sovereignty at the nation state level seems about as far as human beings have progressed so far. Having informal groupings of states is one thing, one global state is another. There is still within man something terrible which Nietzsche called "the will to power" that when carried to the level of some majestic planetary potentate would surely drive any man mad with power and spell ruin for the rest of mankind.

As for war crimes, this too is a subjective matter. Only the winners in any conflict get to punish the war crimes of the losers. Military people are specifically trained to kill people and break things. When one gets them involved in anything, even or especially in "peace keeping," one is running the risk that their police activities will become warlike, as they are not the same as a local police force whose members may know and are known by the local inhabitants they are supposed to be policing.

It is wrong to use military people for anything but warlike activities. The continual use of them by stupid politicians everywhere for peacekeeping is a case of wishful thinking or applying the law of unintended consequences. One thing that irritates me constantly is people's wishful thinking. They would like to think that good intentions are all that it takes to bring about a fundamental change in relations between one group and another. For example, there are only two solutions I see to the problems involving Israel and the Palestinian Arabs; either Israel gets all its ancient territory and any Arabs who remain must know that they are living as guests in a Jewish state, or the state of Israel and a good many Jews must be destroyed. Since the latter is not about to happen, we must inevitably come to the former as the inevitable solution whether it takes ten years or 100 years or 1,000 years.

In 1949, the war which established the state of Israel was artificially ended and the borders were artificially drawn, as they were by the European powers after World War I for the rest of the Middle East. Nobody was content with them, which resulted in many more wars. If a sovereign Palestinian state is declared by fiat as George W. Bush and others seem ready to do, then an attack on it becomes an immediate provocation for another war. All it will take is another suicide bomber to blow himself up inside Israel and Israel will react.

There is a growing cynicism, among the American people themselves, and it may reach all the way to the top of the current American government, that all we need do is declare a Palestinian Arab state, in similar fashion as we declared a new government in Afghanistan after routing the Taliban, and then back away and "let them sort it out." We believe that the terrorists are just a radical fringe, that most Palestinian Arabs are "moderates," that someone among them will be more reasonable. All this is wishful thinking at best and cold blooded malice at worst.

Since the basic issues of land and sovereignty have not been settled through the proper historical instrument of war, it will take another war to finally settle the occupation of Palestine.

Meanwhile as long as matters involving soldiers "war crimes" are being brought up, how about these questions:

How come it is a truism that the differences between rich and poor in the Arab world are, in a far more real sense, actual living conditions, far greater than in any developed country including the United States?

Why don't the wealthy emirs, etc. do something to materially better the lot of their poor brethren?

How is it that these same well to do people often sponsor terrorists rather than supporting a real welfare system for their citizens?

What idea or world view is to blame for this atrocious situation?

How is it that these Arab royals can see fit to so lavishly do everything that is not permitted by their own religion outside their own countries with the cynical explanation that "Allah does not see us here?"

How is it that the rest of the civilized world cannot reach the conclusion that, in some cases, where worldwide destruction is a potential, that colonial rule isn't such a bad idea for those who seem not to be able to govern themselves according to our standards?

And tell me why is there so much obnoxious and misplaced guilt about some countries and cultures not being able to tell all the world that they are in fact better than others, especially when those who are voting with their feet trying to get into Europe and America have no difficulty with these ideas?

The French have seemingly little guilt about theirs. Scratch an Englishman and he'll still tell you he thinks the English the best. Americans aren't sure of much except one thing; if the rest of the world makes too much trouble for us, most of us would like to go home and close our doors against the rest of the world. This wont happen of course. But what will happen?

Another great war in the Middle East possibly this time with an exchange of nuclear weapons. I look for Egypt or Syria, possibly both to be casualties. The rivers of blood that may flow are unimaginable. If it matters, which I doubt, what started it? It started in Europe with the inexcusable treatment of the Jews, not just by the Germans either, as all of Europe has an anti-Jewish streak running through it. After the holocaust, these people had nothing else to do but go back to their traditional homeland and make a last stand. And that's what they have done. And believe me as Menachem Began said, "never again" will they allow themselves to be beaten down and annihilated.
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#705082 - 06/19/02 08:58 PM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Today, I watched the Palestinian woman revel in her son's martyrdom after blowing himself up along with many others. She said she was waiting for the pieces of her son to be brought back to her so she could look upon him one last time and rejoice in sending her son to Allah a martyr. Two thoughts came immediately to mind:

1) There is no possibility of reasoning with such people and

2) Are we going to have to kill every one of them?

Hard thoughts but where is the room for compromise in their position? Their hatred of Israel and us is not going to end no matter how much we try to salve their hatred. Anyone who believes that these people will be satisfied with anything short of our complete annihilation is engaging in wishful thinking.
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#705083 - 06/22/02 02:45 AM Re: Quote
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
mrenaud, in reading your opinions I am struck by your premise that logic, rational thinking, reasonable exchange, compromise, etc. are all possible. This is what I perceive as a flaw in your hope to find a solution. You fail to realize that the Moslem fundamentalists are not like you, do not have the same values, background, education, perceptions, and that they have no reason to discuss anything with you (by "you" I am referring in effect, to the West). You would be totally right in many things you say, IF you were sitting around a table with the Moslem world, and they had the same or similar background as you, where everyone could agree on concepts such as "progress," "rights," "liberty," and. . . "religious freedom."

Fundamentalist radical Moslem ideology knows no limits or bounds to their belief. Therefor, there is NO DISCUSSION POSSIBLE. You are either a Moslem, or an infidel. No gray area, no middle area, no arguments. If you (the West, or anywhere else too I suppose) are not Moslem, that in itself is complete justification for extermination. Simple, but horrible, since it means dialogue is useless. That's the most scary part of it all -- we have an enemy that has no basis or need for any sort of compromise. They can't compromise, it is contrary to the essence of fundamentalist belief!

As angry and sad as the continuous terrorist bombings in Israel make me, I do have a solution, or at least something I'd try, though I have not convinced myself that this would really help:

When a young Moslem extremest blows himself/herself up in Israel, the Israelies should mandate that all relatives of the attacker should be either executed, or face something like life in jail. Perhaps then, the "grieving mother" of the terrorist might change her glorious praise of her son as a martyr, if she knew that because of his actions, the entire family would be rounded up and sent to prison. Maybe dear 'ol mom would think of intervening, and just to save her own skin (and her loved-ones), do anything to keep her martyr-to-be son from carrying out his actions. Might put a bit of a damper on their "kill all Americans" educational system as well, since the cost for being a martyr-hero would have consequences for the entire immediate family.

Just my 2.5 cents worth above, no flames, hardly any smoke. . .

:p

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#705084 - 06/25/02 12:22 AM Re: Quote
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
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