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#705128 - 07/17/02 12:02 PM Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Samejame Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 808
Loc: NL, Canada
Saw a news conference last night releasing six design concepts for rebuilding WTC. Interesting that while the structures are not as formidable as WTC, they will all for the most part reinstate the same office and retail space that was destroyed. All designs feature a footprint/park memorial of some sort of the former towers.

So what do you think of rebuilding on what many consider to be hallowed ground. Is the footprint memorials enough of a rememberance, or are there grounds to build nothing there at all.

I've been tossing this over in my mind, but the thing I keep coming back to is the desire expressed at the conference to "rebuild" lower Manhatten, and restore the commerce and jobs lost in the attack, while at the same time recognizing the site for what it is, and was, and for many, will forever remain being.

I was once of the mind that nothing should go there, but prehaps restoring the site to what it was, with a memorial theme, is the ultimate rebuke to the murderers who brought it down to start with, both the buildings and they country it represents. There's a "show must go on" but at the same time a "we'll never forget" attitude in all six designs that appeals to me.

What do you think?

Jamie
_________________________
"A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" Oscar Wilde.

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#705129 - 07/17/02 05:11 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
I think that rebuilding needs to be done. What did the designs look like and would I be able to find them online? Some people say that the new towers need to be smaller than the old while others say the they need to go higher than the old. Well, I say that they go up at least as high as the old and if they want to go up any higher than that, I'm all for it. I would also like to see twin towers as the highest instead of just a single tall tower. They shouldn't let the twin tower thing die.
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#705130 - 07/17/02 06:18 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I agree that they need to rebuild. However, I didn't find any of the designs particularly attractive nor did they have any "theme". But, they all had a memorial park which was nice.

After looking at the proposals I thought of the following: 6 buildings arranged in a semi-circle facing the water. The buildings at either end would be the smallest, the next pair would be taller, and the the two closest to each other would be the tallest, though not as tall as the World Trade Center. The park in front of the buildings should contain a memorial statue.

The buildings should maintain the same rectangular shape of the WTC, but should be more modern with mirrored black glass.

The park should give a feeling of peace and serenity with the new World Trade Center behind "blocking out" the city behind.

That would give it, in my opinion, more of the feeling of actually being hallowed ground.

Derick
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Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705131 - 07/17/02 11:12 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Anonymous
Unregistered


I found them to be rather cold and lacking of any sort of feeling. Typical modern architecture. Something truly unique would have been nice -- even if the uses they propose remain the same.

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#705132 - 07/19/02 10:01 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I too though the designs were lack luster, though it was nice to see that many of them preserved the old towers' footprints. I think they need to do both: bring in commerce and create a moving memorial and I do not see that these are mutually exclusive.

I would really like to see some great architects brought in for their ideas too. Frank Gehry (sp?) comes to my mind.
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"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#705133 - 07/20/02 01:44 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Its really too bad that the original WTC architect has passed on. He designed a building here in Seattle too, that scares the hell out of me because I can just imagine it toppoling over in an earthquake. However, it was built to survive even big earthquakes! It has a narrow base and then widens after about 30-50 feet (this could be wrong, I'm really bad at guesstimating distance, height, etc.) and continues and the same size all the way up to the top. I can't remember how many floors or how many feet high it is but... Anyway, I think that he would be able to do a good job at re-designing the area.
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#705134 - 07/21/02 09:32 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I've always felt that the center had to be rebuilt, although I have since come to think the actual footprints fo the original towers should not be built upon.

I was underwhelmed with the development proposals shown the other day. I did read the following in the July issue of "Architectural Record":

"Although Beyer Blinder Belle is developing a World Trade Center (WTC) site master plan for the Port Authority and the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, WTC leaseholder Larry Silverstein has his own plans to throw in the mix.

The New Youk office of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill (SOM), led by partner David Childs, FAIA, has been working for Silverstein since last fall and has developed a general land-use plan that includes a skyscraper that would be comparable in height to the WTC towers.

As (Architectural)Record contributing editor Blair Kamin, architecture critic of the Chicago Tribune, originally reported in the Tribune on June 6, the tower would be approximately 1,300 feet tall (the WTC towers were 1,368 and 1,362 feet tall respectively)with up to about 70 occupiable floors and another 40 floors of structural skeleton that could be lit from within. The form of the tower wourld change from rectangular at the base to more rounded near the top...The concept for the top of the tower would resemble a design by Jean Nouvel for the Tower of Infinity, planned for Paris' La Defense in 1988 but never built."

There is an accompanying photo with the article, showing the unbuilt 1988 design. I have to admit, I like how the tower extends upward beyond the occupiable floors with the internally-lit exoskeleton trailing skyward. I'll try to scan and post the photo here tomorrow for you to see.

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#705135 - 07/22/02 11:05 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Here's the image I promised...

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#705136 - 07/22/02 07:45 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Wow! I've got goosebumps.
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"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#705137 - 07/22/02 11:15 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
I don't know if I much like it. What the hell is that square thing next to it that looks like you can see right through it?
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#705138 - 07/23/02 09:27 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by jgoo:
I don't know if I much like it. What the hell is that square thing next to it that looks like you can see right through it?[/b]
That's actually an existing building in Paris, and you can indeed see right through it. The applicable part of that photo was only the proposed tower, to the left, which was computer morphed into a photo of the existing Parisian site.

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#705139 - 07/23/02 06:50 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Dwain,

Are the upper 40 floors just for decoration? Or are they actually functional?

The building looks nice, kind of reminds me of a monument (the Washington Monument perhaps?).

I assume that square thing that Jgoo doesn't seem to like (I don't either) doesn't come with the package. If so, it's better than any of the other proposals - at least from an aesthetic/respectful perspective.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705140 - 07/23/02 08:46 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I've seen pictures of "that square thing" before and will admit that I like it. It's not boring that's for sure and it sort of acts like a picture frame, doesnt' it?
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#705141 - 07/23/02 08:53 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
The square thing is different that's for sure. It might be ok in the right setting, but certainly not there IMO.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705142 - 07/23/02 10:30 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Okay, if the square thing isn't an actual part of the package, then I guess that the design isn't bad. Infact, the best I've seen yet (with the exeption to one that I just got a glimps of on TV for about a split second about a month ago. THAT was cool, although I can't remember too much of it now).
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#705143 - 07/23/02 10:58 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Yes Derick, the proposal would have 70 actual occupiable floors, and another 40 stories' worth of nonoccupiable, internally illuminated translucent "shell" continuing up. It reminds me a bit of the light memorial, a slight bit of the mental image of the original buildings collapsing, and a bit more of the ghost of what was once there, and a lot of hope for the future. I think we need all of those elements in any successful design solution for a "New World Trade Center."

Incidentally Bernard, I think the square thing is the headquarters of some French governmental agency, can't remember which, and it is definitely a "picture frame" - I've seen pictures of the building with large sculptural objects suspended inside the frame. I can't say that it would have been my design solution, but I kind of like it, too. Not every building has to be serious, or sympathetic to its neighbors. Sometimes, it's the "characters" that live in a neighborhood that the residents develop an almost grudging fondness of ;\)

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#705144 - 07/24/02 03:06 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
I personally like this design for the new World Trade Center.

http://www.jrshow.com/jrshow/sept11/futuretowers.jpg

It's what I think of those who destroyed the twin towers, as well as expressing so much of what all true New Yorkers feel much of the time.
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#705145 - 07/24/02 09:37 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5652
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
While we are on the subject, this is the New York New Visions coalition web site...

http://nynv.aiga.org/

Frank B.
Piano World
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#705146 - 07/24/02 10:30 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Thanks for the link, Frank. BTW, don't tell your bosses about my McGraw-Hill copyright infringement above! \:\)

I'd like to find a good-quality copy of the Phantom Towers photo on the NYNV website, matted & framed for the office. Any info on if such a thing is available?

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#705147 - 07/24/02 10:44 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Dwain,

Now that I understand the structure of the building, I really like it. I also like the idea that it wouldn't be built on the footprint of the original WTC.

I was trying to think of an appropriate way to light it - maybe red, white and blue? I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not.

In any event, it is definitely the best idea I've seen so far. Is anyone in power in NYC considering it?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705148 - 07/24/02 03:13 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Yes Derick, the proposal is being prepared by architects Skidmore Owings & Merill for Larry Silverstein, the real estate developer who holds the 99-year master lease for the World Trade Center development. Under the terms of the lease, he has sole discretion of what to build or not build on the site, subject to review of the Port Authority, the actual landowner. I think that he has the right to replace the towers exactly as they were, or to build the same amount of space of equivalent prestige/stature/whatever you want to call it. So while the PA has oversight over whatever Silverstein wants to do on the site, if they try to play that hand too heavily, he has the ability to walk away from the lease and the redevelopment, and pocket his insurance payout - which will be either $3.5 billion, or $7 billion, depending on the outcome of the ongoing insurance dispute. Silverstein had the towers insured for $3.5 billion "per occurrence," and has been making the case that the two planes hitting the towers were actually two occurrences. The insurers are saying that since the two planes were part of a coordinated act, it is actually one occurrence. The insurance policy language seems pretty clear cut, to favor the insurance company's position. But the insurers may end up agreeing to a settlement to avoid a legal battle that would be expensive and a disaster on the PR front, to the tune of somewhere between 4.5 and 5 billion dollars - the estimated actual replacement cost of the towers. (this is all per a WSJ article from yesterday or the day before) Time will tell.

One change I would make from the design described in the Architectural Record article: If I were Silverstein, I would require that the new building be at least one foot taller than the old ones.

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#705149 - 07/24/02 04:34 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Thanks Dwain. I didn't read your original post carefully enough causing you to repeat some it. Sorry about that.

Would you build the tower 1 foot taller just to show the terrorists we are not intimidated?

One more question, how much do you think it would cost to build such a tower?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705150 - 07/24/02 10:25 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Thanks Dwain. I didn't read your original post carefully enough causing you to repeat some it. Sorry about that.

Would you build the tower 1 foot taller just to show the terrorists we are not intimidated?

One more question, how much do you think it would cost to build such a tower?

Derick[/b]
No problem, Derick. Yes, I would want to send an in-your-face signal that we will not be intimidated by terrorists. Surely everyone must realize that to do anything less would be to have lost in the eyes of those who would destroy us. In addition to the symbolic remembrance and filling the need for replacement office space, the design has to serve as a symbolic middle finger to the terorists.

As far as the cost, our clients know our firm has a reputation for generating pretty accurate cost estimates, but skyscrapers definitely aren't our specialty, and NYC isn't our turf, so I couldn't even give a guess.

A good friend/former client is a construction project manager for a Manhattan-based CM firm (in the past, she has served as the project manager for the renovation of Madison Square Garden & started as PM for the Lincoln Center renovation before moving on). Now you've got me curious; I'm going to ask her what something like that would cost.

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#705151 - 07/25/02 11:23 AM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I'd be interested in finding out how much such a building would cost just for the sake of curiosity.

Since the original WTC was insured for 3.5 billion, I was wondering if that's what it would cost to rebuild them. And, if that were the case, would it cost about 1.75 billion to build just one tower.

Obviously, I have no architectural background. But billions of dollars for a building (minus the land) floors me.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705152 - 07/25/02 03:04 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Here's something considerably smaller that costs about 3 billion dollars each:



But you know, a billion dollars just doesn't go as far as it used to. \:\)

As far as replacement cost, I think the WSJ article mentioned that it would cost around 5 billion to replace the two towers. Their internal memos showed that Silverstein's group was quoted premiums for 5 billion in coverage, and they balked at the expense. Other memos noted that they worried that they were underinsured at 3.5B. That's why the insurance battle is so important; if it's only one occurrence, Silverstein doesn't have enough to rebuild in kind.

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#705153 - 07/25/02 04:23 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
5 billion, wow. But if you compare the WTC to that 'little' plane, 5 billion is a bargain. ;\)

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#705154 - 02/08/03 03:44 PM Re: Rebuilding on Ground Zero
Praetorian_AD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/01
Posts: 717
Loc: England
Isn't anyone afraid that the terrorists might try and knock it down again? After all, the reason the trade towers were the targets was simply because they stood so tall above the NY skyline and were easy targets (the bigger they are the harder they fall), right?

PS This whole business really reminds me of the animals' windmill in Geroge Orwell's 'Animal Farm'

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