Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room I think we're owed an apology

For those of you who steadfastly refused to moderate your method of discussion in the Coffee Room, your actions have been the cause of the downfall of what has been an important part of the lives of many of PW's members. Your callous disregard for maintaining civility, proudly brushing off admonitions to "cool it" by proudly proclaiming "That's just the way I am, if you don't like it, tough luck," stooping to the level of slinging mud at those with whom you disagree, all of these behaviors have caused this place to be shut down.

I won't be joining any "new" Coffee Room replacement forums. I am this/close to being completely furious with certain people here, people whose cavalier attitudes about their own behavior is beyond reprehensible. I don't want to join any forums where more of the same B.S. is just going to spring up again.

On behalf of those of us who managed to rein in the more agressive aspects of our personalities, I think we're owed an apology by you bozos.

Nope.

Come on you two...I think we can still turn this into a win/win situation....

jf

I'll go first if it will help the healing.

I apologize.

Congratulations on being a first-class jerk. I can only surmise that the shutting down of the Coffee Room was your intention all along.

You have nothing to apologize for.

Let me be the first to admit there were times I would have cheerfully wrang your cyberneck, chunked you in a briar patch, and told God you died.

But that's not your fault, that's mine.

You were just being kenny.

There's nothing wrong with being who you are.

I'm terribly sorry if any of my posts had anything to do with this.

Please accept my apologies.

Have a nice day, Matt.

You do the same, son.

I'm sorry, too. I know people feel I'm enabler to bad behavior. We don't agree. I'm sorry for that.

Matt, I was thinking the same thing. I've had a wavering opinion on what is happening right now, regarding Frank's reason for closing this place down.

Frank seems to be trying to get this place back on topic (Piano World). I took that to be a bit of a cover-up for the real reason, namely, the ill-spirited discussions that had been going on. Now, however, I can understand his thinking.

I don't ask for an apology from anyone. I ask Frank to accept our apologies for making this harder than it already is. I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say that I genuinely appreciate the effort he has put into this board. The worst thing we could do is put up more controversial material.

Well said, Matt. I hope we meet again.

As for the people who helped cause the CR to be shut down, they know darn well who they are.

Well, I have been over the top on occasion. On lots of occasions. And for that I do apologize.

Matt, we've never gotten along and it's been largely my fault. I will leave this place with only good thoughts of you. I hope you will occasionally think kindly of me.

Tom

kenny: "I'll go first if it will help the healing.

I apologize."

You have nothing to apologize for.

Not everyone feels that way.

What is important now, and what is so easily overlooked, is the feelings of others who we don't understand.

Well put, kenny. An apology is not about understanding, it's about healing and forgivness.

Hay Matt, Good poste.

I'm sorrey for any wey I've uffended u.

If anything I've done is part (or all) of the reason for shutdown of the CR, I apologize too.

I was very angry last week when curtly told to remove something I had posted. I feel badly that markjpcs and I got off on such bad footing so early in his tenure as a moderator. I have nothing against him but was taken aback by the abrasiveness. I think we had one of those unfortunate banging of heads due to extenuating circumstances. I consider myself a reasonable person and am willing to chalk it up to training wheels.

Just so there is no doubt, though, I want to feel I could re-post my picture or other family pictures in the future if the occassion should arise. I said in one of my replies last week that if this turned into a family forum for some but not all, I would leave and never come back. I meant it. It took me many years to develop self-acceptance and I will not hang around anywhere that makes me feel a need to hide an important part of who I am. If that's what this place is, it's not for me. I wish markjpcs hadn't taken my statement so much as a threat as simply a statement of fact.

I am out and I am celebrating it. I spent a good deal of yesterday with Preston walking arm in arm, hand in hand around Madison Sq. Park and Chelsea. We ran into uncountable numbers of men doing the same. We even pecked each other, discreetly, right in the middle of the festival taking place on Broadway. At the corner of 8th Ave. and 23rd St. is a huge billboard (I'm talking multi-story) plastered up against one of the buildings--I can't remember what the advertisement was for--it showed two men in an embrace. It's there where everyone: men, women and children see it every day. No problem.

This is my life now. I am out and about. I am not in your face. I try to live as true to myself as possible and do what normal people do every day.

I've been removing negative influences from my life for some time now, and I would remove PW from it if I felt its policies were unfair. (That's not said in a threatening way. It's a fact--the results of a decision I have made about my life.)

I don't know what we all are supposed to be apologizing for. The only problem I see here is that Ftrank wanted this to be family friendly since children have easy access and many of us (I could even go as far as saying all of us) have posted things that some people would not want their children to see.

I have been a member of another forum (actually run by an attorney) where certain posting behavior was suddenly proscribed as a result of certain legal threats. I don't know if that is the case here but if I were Frank I would not risk the shoal and shark infested waters of tort law to give a bunch of loudmouths the opportunity to "push the envelope". On the other hand, I would probably not be an active member of a board where frequent "envelope pushing" was not taking place.

Perhaps, a members only forum...

Matt, you won't get many apolgies from those who helped mess this place up, they're following others. I'd give Frank the benefit of the doubt and do what you can to help him fix and grow this place. Personally, I think he ought to simply restrict topics in the CR as we do on my site and allow it to continue but it's his call and I'll back his play. I want him to succeed with PW. You run a site like this for the 80% of folks who agree with you, not the critics who have nothing or little of themselves invested.

Hey Troyboy, thanks for the hateful PM. You're a class guy...

CSG!
You have a site of your own?
You don't say?

You're welcome. And thanks for reading it- with a site 80 times bigger than anything else on the internet, it must be hard to get through all of the fan mail.

I remian astonished that everyone is saying goodbye....Frank, this is not ripe or fair.

jf

I apologized for my part in the nastiness and incivility in another thread.

I'll repeat that apology here.

As I said there, the person to whom the apology is owed, really, is Frank. I and others abused his hospitality by refusing to follow his house rules.

Here's why my apology is not directed to Matt:

"Congratulations on being a first-class jerk."

Even Matt has been unable to rise above the effluent.

The fact that my nastiness was typically reactive doesn't excuse it. It became Lord of the Flies around here ... the group dynamic deteriorated, and we didn't rise above the falling standards. Personally, I was guilty of conforming to what was happening, as opposed to what Frank said should be happening.

I'm not going to comment on whether others should apologize too, or what could be said about their unwillingness to do so. It would just start us down the wrong path again.

Human nature being what it is, the CR did pretty well as a non-moderated group. I've seen a lot worse, so I don't think any apologies are necessary. Frank's vision for PW does not align well with this type of forum; one with unrestricted access. I think in the minds of most here, the CR was working. Taking a step back and looking from Frank's perspective, maybe it wasn't.

Posted by ny1911:
I'd agree with this and add that insofar as any of us "identify" so tenaciously with what's said here, it's more often than not a *sign* that we need to stop taking it all so seriously. So for instance, even in my most rancorous exchanges with Larry, as soon as I read what he said, I would simply burst out laughing. Not that THAT would have any effect in changing our minds about those issues but the point being that ideally we should "evolve" to the point where we don't identify ourselves by our thoughts. We're so much more than that.

I apologize too. I know I've played a not insignificant role in all of this. When I first ventured into the CR, I was intrigued by and drawn into the discussions, but flabbergasted by what seemed to be the one-sidedness of all talk political. I rallied to try to drum up support for the liberal cause. In doing that, I became woefully aware of the lack of civility, which was much more disturbing to me than the lack of political balance. I then made it a mission to bring that issue to the forefront. Little did I know or plan, that in the process, I would be branded as one of the trouble makers and gather a cadre of detractors along the way. Such was never my intent.

I believe that my greatest offense (aside from being liberal ) has been in making sweeping generalizations about groups of people whose beliefs I don't share. When it was drawn to my attention by Dwain, I made an effort to tone down my posts. I came to understand how such comments can hurt (ironically, as I've recently tried to explain in the lawyer thread). This is my first foray into internet forums, and it took me awhile to get somewhat up to speed on group internet dynamics. I think I'm much more savvy in that regard now than I was two years ago, and I am committed to continuing to check my interactions here when called to do so.

I don't believe I have ever been vulgar or personally insulted anyone here, except in defense of repeated attacks lodged at me. I realize that even this is not excusable. But, IMO it really takes a saint to let it all roll off. A saint I ain't, although I will work at it until the die I day.

I have a lot baggage here and will unfortunately, aways be somewhat of a pariah in the eyes of some here. But I have never wished anyone here ill will, certainly not the forum, and I harbor a great deal of affection for many of you. I just wish that those of you whom I've offended in any way would realize this.

I really wish we could continue. I can't believe I am the only one who saw progress on the horizon.

Jack, I've always thought highly of you and although we often disagree, I can't believe you would claim this is somehow unfair.

Frank owns PianoWorld just as I own my business and I assume you own your practice. Frank can, as an owner, decide to do anything he wants regarding these forums. As its been said many times, this is his house and we are the guests.

I had a customer once that spent almost $100k per year with me that I "fired" because he treated my employees disrespectfully and it was affecting my ability to provide value for my other clients. I've never regretted that decision. If Frank believes that by tearing down the CR the balance of the forums will become a better place, who are we to argue. Just go find someplace else.

I wish you and yours all the happiness life has to offer.

I'm in a hurry, but I'll just say this to MattG:

If you think you're going to disappear that easily, think again, TheoryBoy! I don't let cool people drift off without a fight.

heck, I saw worse in the MS Zone Backgammon rooms.

A LOT worse.

Yeah.

Whenever I tell people about "my forum", they are always AMAZED that we didn't get a moderator until now.

Granted I didn't read every thread everyday, I always thought that we were a pretty decent bunch, with only this past year as being rough and rowdy.

And I really thought that these last few months things were getting better...

So you advocate meaningless words just to smooth things over?

Not at all.

I have differences with lots of people here abouts, nothing has ever been personal on my part. I like everyone. I wish everyone well.

None of these arguments around here has ever been personal with me.

If I've offended someone, I'm sorry that they were hurt. I genuinely like everyone here.

i like what MattG said. while i did enjoy some intelligent or harmless discussions of some subjects here, i did see more than enough nasty, ugly or extreme comments from some posters, which makes me careless about seeing this CR go. so be it...

Let me go on record here in these final hours of the PW CR as stating I definitely do not like everyone here.

In fact I would go well out of my way in real life to avoid some of the people I've met here. It's not them or me. It's simply the combination. I well know by now whom I'm compatible with and whom I'm not. It comes with age.

But I will state that I very much enjoyed you Tom and you too gryph, especially your irreverent senses of humor. I'll miss that.

Didn't mean to leave anyone out but since it's you two that had that interaction, I just thought I'd interject here.

Whoa......

What have I been missing??

Matt has a secret...

Naw, everybody knows.

I love Matt. He is even smarter and wittier than you...but just barely on the witty part.

It's not a secret, Tom.

jf

Sockpuppet? He wasn't Lazy Pianist, was he?

I know, I love him too.

Yup. He was LP, Stainweggie, Yhapbo and Tomk!!!

Ok. THAT'S IT. I want to know ONCE AND FOR ALL who LP really is. PM me. I keep good secrets. Really.

Jodi

Apple knows who Lazy Pianist is.

RZ and John Andrew are the same.

Who else hid and kept reinventing themselves?

Jodi, it's no secret. LP was Jolly.

jf

Good for him.

He did well.

Good riddle. Roi, Aveu??? I do know of some who could have used a reinventing or two.

I just need to say this here. I've gotten to know JA off this board and he is about one of the nicest, smartest and most sincere and warm people anyone could want to meet. He was dealt very, very poorly here.

Yes, kathy, I agree. He is all of those things but intellectually honest he is not.

No way RZ and JA are the same.

JA's style was to post articles from the internet with little elaboration. To be honest, as nice a guy as JA is, I am very unimpressed by people who continually resort to that.

RZ for the most part composed his own posts. Many of them were well thought out. Further, unlike some highly overrated people here, RZ could think on his feet. He often rapidly came back with rebuttals that had good and extended content, not just wise-guy cop-out rejoinders. Now if that were really JA, then why didn't he show that persona originally?

I don't know, but they are the same.

gryphon: "RZ and John Andrew are the same."

How do you know this? Apart from the fact that they are both liberal Catholics, they have different views, sentence structures and posting habits. Makes no sense.

What, you don't trust me?

RZ and JA are two different people. Their Catholicism was world apart.

Besides JA had already left the Catholic Chruch by the time he got here.

I do think Lazy was Matt.

oh please

Actually, it's quite true. I never much spoke to him here but having gotten to know him elsewhere, I've found him to be quite nice. I see him as something of the Good Angel to my Bad. We're often at odds on details, but he's amazingly thoughtful and gracious. We've had distinct differences of opinion, but it's been amazingly easy to feel a sense of friendship develop in spite of that, and even if we seldom agree.

My guess is that nearly all of us who perhaps developed differences here early might feel quite differently in a another place or in person.

I confess, I am really Ritchie Blackmore. I stumbled on this place while working out combining harmonic minors with pentatonic minor runs leading to Phrygian modal resolutions.

Regarding JA:

First, and foremost, I have absolutely no ill will toward JA.

During my stint of posting in the CR, I could never really figure out who JA was. I posted a few responses to his posts(most of them were challenging his positions) to find out what his "grand scheme" was, and to learn more about his positions. I tried to do this with no 'foul' intended, but he always tended to return the ball to my court...It was troublesome for me because I was just wanting a diffinitive answer, and he was 'playing the rules of the coffee room'. Our interactions never really worked.

I always wanted to get inside his head, but alas...it was a "no go".

to be honest with you, this the the part of the forum that i like coming to the least, b/c all people do here is start pointless threads that are gonna get buried in a day or two, anyway, maybe knocking some of the good threads on the last page [whatever that might be].

but at the same time this is the most different forum, b/c most of the members up here are adults, mainly older ones. [i feel like a baby up here, b/c i'm only 19 with a bunch of older people, no offense.] since most of you have a lot of experiene up here, a lot more things up here interest you more than the younger folks.

when the moderate gave us the notice, i can understand where they were coming from, b/c i don't really like some of the things that go on up here, either, b/c sometimes all people do up here is start threads on controversial topics and argue about them insessantly, which i think is foolishness. people also tend to start topics that have no relevance to anything, like stuff about gardening, family issues, and other kinds of rubbish that no one really cares about. that's why when i come here, i don't even stay here for say, 5 minutes. why? that's b/c i know that the minute i get here i see that i'm not gonna find any topics or threads that interest me in any shape, type, or form.

with this going on, i think that i should be appointed as moderator, b/c i would tolorate this kind of thing, b/c when i go to forums, the thing that gets under my skin is when people start pointless irrelevant threads that don't really carry any signifigance, or just don't belong here. if see them, they're either gonna get locked or deleted to prevent these forums from getting flooded in the future, and then the moderators don't have to keep wasting time cleaning these forums out every now and then, deleting some of the good threads every now and then, b/c people start 10 million useless threads every day. and i don't think that this community is monitored enough by the moderators, so they need to appoint some new ones, mainly me, b/c i won't tolerate some of the things that go on up here.

Sorry, all I could see were the "b/c"s

I am sometimes lazy but was never Lazy.

I'm not entirely sure just how it is that I could possibly ever have earned such admiration, but thank you nonetheless. Jack, you've been an incredible asset to the CR since you first darkened its doorway, and it is I who should be giving, not receiving, the adulation. I am neither smart nor witty, I'm just a doofus who manages to muddle through every now and then.

Regarding JA. He could be very hurtful. I still feel the sting of what he said about my son back in November just after the election. I don't know who he was and don't really care. He IMHO definitely helped lose the election for the Democrats with his superior attitude. At the time, Kincaid even agreed with me. I was honestly trying to vote Democrat mostly because of the gay issues and my other son. I was seeking answers and when I would ask questions he'd answer with "don't you think you should know that?" Gosh, why do you think I was asking questions. JA was the one person who literally turn me off and was the driving force of me not voting for Kerry. Just my thoughts FWthey'reW.

well, the 'b/c's are abbreviations of the word 'because', or 'cause', simple 'b/c' i'm too lazy to type out the whole word. it's just a waste of time.

Ah, I thought you were typing on one of those mobile telephones. A pianist who can't find enough time to type all his letters? Can't you type fast enough?