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I'd be interested to hear what someone thinks who is more in tune with the gay community. I didn't think Kerry's remarks were out of line at all -- he didn't accuse Cheney of hypocrisy or claim his daughter's orientation requires a person to draw a conclusion about the politics of gay marriage. He was just pointing out that having a gay person among one's friends or family is hardly unique anymore.
Some days, you are so naive... Once is an accident, twice is prior planning. A decsion has been made in the Kerry Campaign to use Cheney's daughter as a wedge issue with the Evangelical Right. Anything they can do to suppress that vote, is good for their campaign. They read the same stats I do, and they know in a close election, the Evangelicals could easily be the margin of victory, even if one loses the Catholic vote (Bush '88). It's cheap, it's intensely political, and I think it will most definitely backfire.
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Originally posted by erginc: JBryan, the perceived hypocrisy...as I clarified later in the post. Then say "perceived hipocrisy" and be sure you include who is doing the perceiving. You cannot baldly state a conclusion and then go on to support it only with what you "perceive". That is, of course, if you want to be taken at all seriously. The fact is, I have perceived no hypocrisy from Cheney or his wife with regard to their daughter.
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Originally posted by erginc: I guess that puts me on the Left Bank speaking French, sitting in my favourite cafe "La Pallette", on Rue de la Siene, watching the mainstream go by.
An entertaining view, I might add.
erginc, Gosh, that sounds nice. Maybe, if I ever get to Canada we can meet for lunch. And, if you ever venture to Florida we can do MaiTais on the beach. Truly, I enjoy diverse, strong opinions. Years ago, as I child, I was labeled as wishy-washy. Then my grandfather took me on his knee and said "Peggy, you're not wishy-washy. You're flexible."
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I think Kerry and Edwards keep bringing up Mary Cheney for a couple of reasons. 1. They hoped to get under Bush or Cheney's skin. Doing that tends to get them to scowl (Bush) or hurl obscenities (Cheney). Do they bring up Mary Cheney when Bush and Cheney are not standing right there in the room with an open mike? No, they do not. 2. They hoped to look gracious and tolerant, even willing to laud their opponent's parenting and handling of this difficult situation. 3. They know there is little that Bush/Cheney can do about it. What are they going to do -- find a bunch of gay people to condemn Kerry? Kind of takes some of the air out of that "gay marriage ban" constitutional amendment. I think it is designed to get people to wonder, "How could the pres and veep be so hard over on this issue when Cheney's own daughter is victimized by it? Oh, Republicans are so *meeeaaaaann!*" Yes, Jolly, it was political and calculated. I mean, *Duh!* It was the best kind of political move for Kerry -- a win/win/win. What they said was quite inoffensive on its face, as I pointed out above -- the best kind of dig, if you ask me. And I love them for it! Yippee! Democrats play tough and beat the Republicans at their own sleazoid game! Rove would love it. If his heart were capable of an emotion like love. Cindy -- glad that Elizabeth Edwards gave her counterpart a mild tongue lashing
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It seems to me Mrs. Cheney's reaction is what is making their daughter an issue. Mrs. Cheney is a sharp, shrewd, intelligent partisan politician with a thick skin. A calculated decision was made to have her spout off about Mr. Kerry's comments last night or Mrs. Cheney would not have done so.
Making a political decision to make this one of the GOP's main topics of attack on Mr. Kerry's performance last night is a cyncial decision by her parents to use her homosexuality for political purposes.
Mr. and Mrs. Cheney should be ashamed of themselves.
(BTW, if the Cheneys are so proud of the daughter and not ashhamed, why isn't her life partner on stage with her when she is there? Indeed, Ms. Cheney's life partner was specifically told she could not attend the GOP convention. If their daughter had a husband, he would be there.
Just what are the Vice President and Mrs. Cheney so ashamed of that they acknowledge -- but only when it helps them politically -- that their daughter is gay but hide the family their daughter has created?
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards
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I think it is truely amazing that some think Kerry won last nights debate because of style over substance. Smooth talking and throwing out stats do not add up to leadership. GWB often mangles words etc, but take a big step back and look at his record. Getting us out of the recession, tax cuts for EVERYONE, holding public schools responsible for educating the children, NO attacks after 9/11 getting Khadafi turned around, deposing a ruthless dictator and his brutal sons, overthrowing the Taliban, sowing the seeds of democracy in the middle east, allowing for faith-based initiatives to help the needy, acutally putting African-Americans in positions of power....the list goes on. On the other hand Mr Kerry in 20 yrs in the Senate sponsores only ONE bill and FOUR "resolutions". Kerry wants to be President so he can pussyfoot around at summits and deliver pompous speeches. At least Bush is actually attempting to do something. Finally, I have to think back to the baseball game at Yankee stadium after 9/11, where he threw out the 1st pitch. He was given a hero's ovation...how quickly they forget. Also it took a lot of guts to stand on that mound, so soon after the attack, surrounded by 50-60 thousand people not knowing whether there might have been an assassin lurking in the crowd.
Estonia L190 #7004 Casio CDP S350
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Originally posted by John Andrew: Mr. and Mrs. Cheney should be ashamed of themselves.
geez...... talk about spin! Whew! I feel like I'm going to be sick!
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John has a knack for posting utterly disgusting things such as this.
You liberals keep whining about wanting homosexuals to be treated just like everyone else, but you obviously won't practice what you preach when it's to your advantage to do otherwise.
She doesn't appear with her partner, John, because she's not there to parade her sex life, she's there to support her dad. I don't see you questioning why others aren't bringing *their* mates with them, parading them around for the cameras. You seem to feel that if she's homosexual, she has an obligation to point it out constantly. Treating her equal is to take her as herself, the VP's daughter, not as his "gay daughter", and demand she carry a sign on her back.
And man, all the ridiculous excuses being made for Kerry and Edward's lapse of good judgment. I can't believe it. Good thing there isn't a special interest group wanting equal rights for ugly people..... we'd have to listen to why Bush was tacky for telling Kerry how brave he was having two ugly daughters in his family.....
Kerry and Edwards both brought it up for one reason only - to take a swipe at Bush and Cheney in hopes that it would turn off some voters. If he had simply wanted to talk about gay rights, surely he has had contact with other homosexuals he could have used as examples. But no, he chose Cheney's daughter. It was the most disgusting thing I've heard all through this campaign. Mrs. Cheney has no reason to be ashamed - *you* do, John. You, and every single person who is trying to justify the cheap tawdry comments by Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb. I'm not a homosexual, but I am certain that every respectable homosexual in the country is embarrassed by seeing someone's sex life used for their own political interests.
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Originally posted by justme: Originally posted by John Andrew: [b] Mr. and Mrs. Cheney should be ashamed of themselves.
geez...... talk about spin! Whew! I feel like I'm going to be sick! [/b]Oh please.... Lynne Cheney is not some innocent, politically naive stay-at-home Mom trying to protect her little darling. She is as much a rough and tumble politican as the rest of the people in this race. That is not criticism, I would say the same thing about Tereza Kerry. She would never have made this an issue if the campaign had not been consulted first. She would have never made it an attack on Mr. Kerry had she not seen political advantage to it. She could have let it die and the discussion would have ended and the wide commentary now being made about her daughter's sexuality would not be happening. But she chose not to. She wanted to use her daughter's homosexuality -- and how Mr. Kerry "victmized" her family -- as a political issue. Let's get over thinking any of these people are innocent bystanders. They are not. Both campaigns are highly calibrated and when a major figure in the campaign speaks out on national madia, those words are are part of an overall strategy the campaign has decided upon. Mr. Bush's campaign chose to make Ms. Cheney's homosexuality an issue of discussion as a way to attack Mr. Kwerry now that the polls indicate most people believe he won. Mrs. Cheney joined right in and did the deed herself. She chose to bring about this discussion. She chose to make her daughter's homosexuality a topic for the media to highlight. Let's not pretend we don't understand how these things happen.
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards
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GWB often mangles words etc, but take a big step back and look at his record. Actually, that's what people are doing, and that's why Kerry is surging. W's record is abysmal, which is why their whole strategy is to tear down Kerry. Did we hear anything at all last night about what W will do in the next 4 years? Nope. We heard more attempts to denigrate Kerry and his plans. More shopworn labels, more red meat for the base. But the labels don't stick when the facts suggest otherwise and the American people use their eyes and ears. Pretty sad, really. I think that, once again, Bush's advisers have steered the poor man wrong. He could have won by announcing some new initiatives and making some more promises he has no intention of keeping. You know, the vision thing? Instead, they went hard right and negative. Only they weren't smart enough to realize that a strategy based *solely* on smearing Kerry wouldn't work if they ever actually debated Kerry. 'Cause flip-floppin', tongue-tied, lilly-livered Kerry didn't show up, did he? And they weren't at all prepared to deal with the real thing. Nah, people aren't being fooled by Kerry's silver tongue. Heck, Kerry doesn't *have* a silver tongue -- not three weeks ago we were hearing how very lame he is on the stump. People are starting to wake up to what a failure W has been. They don't want to vote him out -- he comes across as a nice guy. But they will. Cindy -- figuring W will land on his feet, and hoping he will run again in 2008 because that would be a heck of a primary fight against McCain
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Quit spinning, J.A. you are starting to become almost as wordy and convoluted as Kerry.
You've been nailed, and you know it.
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JA, the issue goes deeper than that.
The Bush Cheney people brought Mary Cheney into this. They could have declined all comment to preserve their daughter's privacy, but they did not. You know, the way other presidents have sometimes opted to protect the privacy of their kids. They talked openly about her orientation, figuring it would help them in some way.
Hey, it's a shame if it didn't go the way they wanted. But they can't have it both ways.
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She could have let it die and the discussion would have ended and the wide commentary now being made about her daughter's sexuality would not be happening. But she chose not to. She wanted to use her daughter's homosexuality -- and how Mr. Kerry "victmized" her family -- as a political issue.
I have found this sort of logic to be typical among those who profess to be liberals. All I can assume is it is a symptom of the brain rot that results from the religion of liberalism. Someone takes a cheap shot at another person, that person responds to it, and the brain dead liberal accuses the second person of being the bad one.
Unfortunately, this kind of stupid logic permeates liberal thinking, and is why none of them are fit for public office.
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Where's Kenny when you actually want his opinion.
JA, Your view is very difficult for me to stomach. It truly makes me ill to even think about it. Either the Cheney's are very sick or you are very sick.
Cindy, I respect your opinion. Do you agree with JA about the Cheney's?
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Originally posted by gryphon: "Lynne Cheney's still-remembered 1981 lesbian romance novel, "Sisters," was feted Monday night in a special performance by the "Lynne Cheney Players" - to the delight of an audience of liberal East Village types. The performance at the New York Theatre Workshop was part of a celebration of left-leaning radio personality Laura Flanders' new book, "Bushwomen: Tale of a Cynical Species." Yesterday, Flanders told Lowdown that Cheney's novel "is a breathy, gothic romance, horribly written. It's celebrating lesbian love and promotes the value of preventative devices, condoms, to women who want to remain free. It features a woman who has unmarried sex with the widow of her sister - all this by Lynne Cheney, the culture warrior of the right." Monday's crowd of 200 - which included actress Janeane Garofalo - laughed throughout the satirical staging. Choice scenes adapted from "Sisters" included one in which two female characters write to each other: "Let us go away together, away from the anger and the imperatives of men. We shall find ourselves a secluded bower where they dare not venture. There will be only the two of us, and we shall linger through long afternoons of sweet retirement." One of Cheney's characters swoons to a Sapphic love letter: "How well her words describe our love - or the way it would be if we could remove all impediments, leave this place, and join together ... Then our union would be complete. Our lives would flow together, twin streams merging into a single river." Vice President Cheney's wife has been silent on the hot-button issue of gay marriage, although their 34-year-old daughter, Mary Cheney, is openly gay. President Bush has come out in a support of a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriage. "Here's a whole book where she gloried in lesbian love affairs," Flanders said. "The hypocrisy is rank."" [emphasis mine] Link
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt
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The Bush Cheney people brought Mary Cheney into this. They could have declined all comment to preserve their daughter's privacy, but they did not. You know, the way other presidents have sometimes opted to protect the privacy of their kids. They talked openly about her orientation, figuring it would help them in some way.
Hey, it's a shame if it didn't go the way they wanted. But they can't have it both ways.
Excuse me, but neither Bush nor Cheney has said a word about Cheney's daughter's sexual preferences. She has simply worked in the campaign, just like the heterosexual Kerry daughters and Bush daughters have done. The *only* ones to bring up her sexual preference are the DNC, Kerry, and Edwards.
You democrats don't pay attention.
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And La Sullivan nails it down nicely with respect to the Mary faux-flap: " keep getting emails asserting that Kerry's mentioning of Mary Cheney is somehow offensive or gratuitous or a "low blow". Huh? Mary Cheney is out of the closet and a member, with her partner, of the vice-president's family. That's a public fact. No one's privacy is being invaded by mentioning this. When Kerry cites Bush's wife or daughters, no one says it's a "low blow." The double standards are entirely a function of people's lingering prejudice against gay people. And by mentioning it, Kerry showed something important. This issue is not an abstract one. It's a concrete, human and real one. It affects many families, and Bush has decided to use this cynically as a divisive weapon in an election campaign. He deserves to be held to account for this - and how much more effective than showing a real person whose relationship and dignity he has attacked and minimized? Does this makes Bush's base uncomfortable? Well, good. It's about time they were made uncomfortable in their acquiescence to discrimination. Does it make Bush uncomfortable? Even better. His decision to bar gay couples from having any protections for their relationships in the constitution is not just a direct attack on the family member of the vice-president. It's an attack on all families with gay members - and on the family as an institution. That's a central issue in this campaign, a key indictment of Bush's record and more than relevant to any debate. For four years, this president has tried to make gay people invisible, to avoid any mention of us, to pretend we don't exist. Well, we do. Right in front of him. " link [emphasis mine]
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally posted by Larry: [b]The Bush Cheney people brought Mary Cheney into this. They could have declined all comment to preserve their daughter's privacy, but they did not. You know, the way other presidents have sometimes opted to protect the privacy of their kids. They talked openly about her orientation, figuring it would help them in some way.
Hey, it's a shame if it didn't go the way they wanted. But they can't have it both ways.
Excuse me, but neither Bush nor Cheney has said a word about Cheney's daughter's sexual preferences. She has simply worked in the campaign, just like the heterosexual Kerry daughters and Bush daughters have done. The *only* ones to bring up her sexual preference are the DNC, Kerry, and Edwards.
You democrats don't pay attention. [/b] Larry you don't pay attention. Cheney spoke about it most recently with respect to the issue of gay marriage and his wife blanced and dithered about it when asked about it this spring.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally posted by Larry: [b]Oh, and Larry? It is the height of immaturity to refuse to address others here in a respectful manner by using their correct name. Knock it off with the "Bendover" stuff, will you? You too, Jolly. I'm quite tired of it.
No, the height of immaturity is to support a bonafide traitor for president simply because he is a democrat. As for names, be glad I don't call you sphincter. [/b] Ah... if that's the worst they call me then I'm doing pretty well.
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Net, I think we'd better lay it right out there for Larry so he can admit he is wrong. ****************** DAVENPORT, Iowa - Vice President Dick Cheney, whose daughter Mary is a lesbian, drew criticism from both proponents and foes of gay marriage Tuesday after he distanced himself from President Bush’s call for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. At a campaign rally in this Mississippi River town, Cheney spoke supportively about gay relationships, saying “freedom means freedom for everyone,” when asked about his stand on gay marriage. “Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it’s an issue our family is very familiar with,” Cheney told an audience that included his daughter. “With the respect to the question of relationships, my general view is freedom means freedom for everyone. ... People ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to. . . . Addressing Bush’s position on the amendment, Cheney said: “At this point, say, my own preference is as I’ve stated, but the president makes policy for the administration. He’s made it clear that he does, in fact, support a constitutional amendment on this issue.” . . . The Cheneys have two daughters, both of whom are working on the campaign. Mary Cheney is director of vice presidential operations for the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign. She held a public role as her father’s assistant in the 2000 campaign and helped the GOP recruit gay voters during the 2002 midterm elections. Article
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by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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