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#722855 - 06/18/03 08:33 PM Re: The Disney Smear
The D's Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 624
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
P.S. Talking about confused kids - we had a family friend whose step-son found out his father had "come out" only at a funeral when his father came completely dressed and made-up as a woman! Now he doesn't know if he has two mothers or what. [/b]
I feel very sorry for him! Could you imagine how completely world-altering that would be? Poor kid...
_________________________
Musically,
Benjamin Francis
http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis
(I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?)
----------
Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach:
"Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."

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Piano & Music Accessories
#722856 - 06/18/03 08:34 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
TomK,
Our philiosophies of life are different, so we differ.
 Quote:
But how does one explain to him/her the homosexual act is immoral
I would never teach my child that the homosexual act is immoral. Who says it is? You? The Bible? Well we know all about the Bible.

 Quote:
But more importantly, it doesn't reach the central issue of child rearing, which is not how to give the child choices, but rather how to instill in the child the values you have to lead the type of quality life that you believe in. You pass on to you children who you are.
The absolutely most important sentence there is the last. If you want to instill values in your child you will live such a life of values. If you want a bigotted child, you will lead a bigotted life. If you want a tolerant child you will lead a life of compassion for others. If you want a loving child, be a loving person. If you want a charitable child you will be charitable towards others, etc. etc.

The choices your child faces in life are going to be there whether you give them to him/her or not. One of the great gifts you can give your child is education and the ability to make decisions. This doesn't happen for children who are sheltered from the world in which they live.

Edited:
Also, it seems we eachg come into this world with something especially unique, so another great gift you can give a child is respect for his/her individuality and uniqueness.

Sorry, I'm starting to sound preachy, but you asked.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722857 - 06/18/03 08:35 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Re-reading my post "in print", made me realize I wasn't clear about how "retarded" and "gheigh" are used - not so much to insult individuals, but for EVERYTHING. As in "That test was retarded" and "Oh, the party was so 'gheigh', I'm sorry I went" (note, does not mean gay people were there)... Practically every other sentence when the kids talk!
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722858 - 06/18/03 08:35 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
 Quote:
But isn't it normal to want to peck your lover goodbye when you part ways on the street? Or some such thing?[/b]
I suppose it is but it makes others uncomfortable - particularly people with children. I have many feelings that I believe are perfectly normal, but I wouldn't dare act upon 99% of them.

Sexuality sets gays apart. It makes no sense to me whatsoever to draw attention to the one thing that sets one apart from everyone else.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722859 - 06/18/03 08:39 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Ariel,
I appreciate your posts. You may want to read Arthur Miller's "Tea and Sympathy". It was also a movie.
I have to go.
Have a good night all of you,
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722860 - 06/18/03 08:41 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
But you see what's going on here?

So you to took the kid through divorce and through all your personal problems that you and your husband had and now the question comes, "what do we do with the kid now that he's all screwed up?"

Take some responsibility for what you've done to your kid. Be a parent.

Though it's better not to screw over the kid in the first place.

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#722861 - 06/18/03 08:49 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
TomK, I sincerely hope I am wrong about children getting their values from their parents for your children's sake if you have any.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722862 - 06/18/03 08:50 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Hi Peggy,

Yes, it has made me stronger. But every once in a while feelings of guilt creep in when I'm reminded of some tasteless gay joke I told. Never realizing, of course, who I was telling it too.

My dad was like a real-life Archie Bunker - only he was for real. Nothing funny about it. You name the minority, he didn't like them. He didn't hate them, but he didn't like them. And, as a result, I had all the stereotypes instilled in me. I never realized who much those stereotypes seeped into almost every way I interacted with people until the event with my friend.

Today I feel I'm a much better person than I once was. It's just a shame that it took such a jolt to make me realize what a jerk I had been.

Best of luck to you and your sons. Including the one that looks like Tom Cruise. I know how difficult it is to be so incredibly good-looking -we all have our crosses to bear. Haha.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722863 - 06/18/03 08:50 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
from TomK:
 Quote:
...how to instill in the child the values you have to lead the type of quality life that you believe in. You pass on to you children who you are. [/b]
from Bernard:
 Quote:
TomK, I sincerely hope I am wrong about children getting their values from their parents for your children's sake if you have any. [/b]
Bernard,

You are not the first to have that thought.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722864 - 06/18/03 08:53 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
But you see what's going on here?

Take some responsibility for what you've done to your kid. Be a parent.

Though it's better not to screw over the kid in the first place.[/b]
TomK,
My sons are fine thankyou.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722865 - 06/18/03 08:54 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Tom K,

Who on earth are you talking to in this thread?
Peggy? For God's sake, have a heart man. She did nothing wrong.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722866 - 06/18/03 09:05 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Bernard.

And you think I'm judgmental?

People screw up their kids. That's why kids are screwed up. Number 1 reason--divorce. Number 2 reason--parents still living out THEIR childhoods. It's just the way it is. Kids aren't unhappy on their own, parents CREATE unhappy kids. All kids want to do is be loved, feel secure and play. They want to learn, they want to know that their is family the most important thing in their parents life.

The minute, the minute the kid finds out there are more important things in the parent's life than the familiar relationship the kid's life begins to go to hell.

And if parent's mess up a kid, I think they should be called on it. That's why I said that that children become what the parent is. If you see a problem kid, look to the parent. These facts aren't plesent, just the truth.

Well, maybe I am judgmental.

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#722867 - 06/18/03 09:16 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
TomK layeth the smack-down, and I cannot say he is wrong.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#722868 - 06/18/03 09:17 PM Re: The Disney Smear
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Ariel:
The school board in my town passed a resolution forbidding sexual or other harrassment in the schools - based on gender, race, ethnicity, religion and sexual preference. After a heated debate, the sexual preference part was struck down, and after that, it seemed things got noticeably worse. It was if the school had somehow sanctioned the ridicule. And in a way it's worse for a boy, because if they complain to the school about being bullied or harrassed, they're laughed at and ridiculed all the more.
Another great idea with the best of intentions, backfiring. "Thought Police" just doesn't work.

Our high school has "houses" of students, based on their academic standing. Those students that are destined to take the easiest levels of classes are placed into what is called the "Success House."

Now, students use the term "success house" as an insult, because everyone knows that the term is the adult world's way of making the losers appear to be equal (that's not my assessment, but is how the students define and interpret the term).

The students are taught that it is wrong to say anything negative in terms of race or sexuality. The result: the boys seem to have an entire repertoire of off-color race jokes, gay jokes, dumb blonde jokes, etc.

I laugh when I hear a funny joke. I would never tell my son," I don't like XYZ" as this would also backfire (he simply would not tell me things I didn't want to hear, and I think this could snowball).

"Thought Police" tactics in the home can also backfire.

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#722869 - 06/18/03 09:32 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
TomK, I don't think there's any comparison. You're kicking someone who's down. Obviously, mercy is not one of your "values", not that I think Peggy has done anything wrong--on the contrary--I think she's heroic.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722870 - 06/18/03 09:36 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
rvaga,

It wasn't thought policing that was going on in our schools, but - yes - an attempt at policing actions. Words are behaviors (as are shoving, groping, tripping whatever). I think it's very important to distinguish feelings/thoughts from actions, as part of teaching about personal responsibility. After all, noone can control his or her mental processes but we want our children to be accountable for their conscious choices of how to ACT.

Because of some bigoted people in our area (somehow or other they got it into Court and our school district was actually in danger of losing funding), that one article in a long mouthful of "anti-defamation" rules was very self-consciously struck down. Yes, it WOULD have been better if it had never been included, in view of the outcome. However, I think what caused the increase in harrassment, was the very public Court battle - and the district losing.

As far as "thought police" in the home - no that certainly works less well than anywhere. Limits on behavior are different.

I consider it important like any parent to teach my children about values as I see them (always explaining why), and to insist on standards of behavior that I believe are important ("picking my battles", as they say).

And one of the things I believe in most strongly, is "anti-meanness". What's called in Christianity the "Golden Rule". That's why I've taught my kids that the only really "bad words" are words that hurt people's feelings (like "retard" "nigger", "faggot, etc.) as opposed to words that hurt people's social sensibilities (****, **** , etc. - always wanted to try out the site's filters). Of course, the latter group of good old Anglo-Saxon words - just cultural squeamishness - have to be used sparingly so as not to lose zing, and also with a sense of fitness as to time and place.

Not that either group is polite conversation.

But thought police - never. Shades of the worst of religion and ideological zealotry!
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722871 - 06/18/03 10:30 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
rvaga -

To address the issue of your school's "Success House", and the way "special" has come to be insulting...kids are ultra-sensitive to hypocrisy on the part of their elders. Phoniness. And that kind of Orwellian "Double-Speak" will always backfire.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722872 - 06/18/03 10:40 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Tony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 151
Loc: Houston
Dear Peggy,

I'm really aware of the pain caused in marriages where one person acknowledges his or her homosexuality. I've worked for many years with patients in those situations. Never have I seen more pain.

On the other hand, it is homophobia of the society as well as internalized homophobia which causes a person to try to deny, hide, or supress his or her sexuality in the first place. Persons with fewer approval needs, and/or more accepting environments tend to come to terms with sexuality much earlier thus avoiding the pitfalls of inappropriate marriages.

Every gay man (who was struggling with his heterosexual marriage), whether 25 years old or 75, whom I've seen for treatment has said he knew of his sexuality by early adolescence and hoped to be able to change it or at least spare self and family shame by entering heterosexual marriages. Without exception these same men experience enormous pain and regret for the pain brought to their families and themselves by their attempts to deny their homosexuality. Each one has expressed deep affection and concern for their wives and children, but they've all said they have come to the place of being unable to continue pretending to be heterosexual and living lives of dishonesty and deceit.

Both psychological and psychiatric associations in the US have stated it is not only unethical, but harmful and ineffective to attempt to change a persons sexual orientation. There is only the strongest scientific evidence that sexual orientation is determined during gestation and is as much a part of the person as eye color or height. Certainly every gay man I've talked with has said sexuality is in no way a choice.(Children raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay than other children, and almost all gay people have heterosexual parents.)Remember when children were put through hell attempting to change them from left handed to right handed?

Regarding your sons, it might be worth considering the possibility of making life easier for them by allowing them to see happy, well-adjusted gay people, so if one happens to be gay, he will not have the same experience his father and you have had. Under no circumstances will exposure influence or "convert" a child.

Your position is a difficult one, one hard to discuss, and one in which there is frequently fear and shame. To make it even harder, very little sound, reliable information is readily available upon which to make decisions.

My very best wishes to you and yours,
Tony

PS: PFlag (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) is a wonderfully helpful organization for parents, spouses, and children of gay/lesbian people. It is made up of tens of thousands of people who have already confronted the deliema you currently face.

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#722873 - 06/18/03 11:07 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Tony-- great post!

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#722874 - 06/19/03 01:18 AM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
TomK layeth the smack-down, and I cannot say he is wrong.[/b]
I can. He's wrong.

It's not only his lack of compassion, but that his lack of compassion would make it impossible for people to recognize their sexuality at an early enough age whereby they wouldn't have made mistakes later (and gotten themselves into messes around their own kids to begin with.)

He's wrong regardless of whether homosexuality is wrong (or non-marital sex is just as wrong, as he acknowledges) because his lack of compassion leads to an even greater evil, and that is the one he acknowledges.

He's wrong. Happens to all of us. Wrongheadedness is forgiveable.

Lack of compassion is a little more problematic.

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#722875 - 06/19/03 01:34 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Note to Steve Miller,

I read the post you deleted. It was beautiful, and I'm sorry you felt that was necessary.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722876 - 06/19/03 02:30 AM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
people to recognize their sexuality[/b]
Hmmm...if you believe in God, as you say you do, and everything we know about God says he created man and women for each other and he abhors homosexual behavior, how can you reconcile your statement?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#722877 - 06/19/03 02:55 AM Re: The Disney Smear
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Peggy,

You don't need to respond to this, just ignore my statement and implied question if you want.

But. . . I can't help thinking, there's one person that needs to be very involved with your son, the only person that might have an idea of the turmoil (that might be) going on, and the only one that can help him deal with these issues: his father.


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#722878 - 06/19/03 06:24 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Tony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 151
Loc: Houston
Gyro,

I quote from Episcopal Bishop, John S. Spong:

In my priestly and episcopal career, I have watched the literal Bible be quoted to justify racial segregation, to ensure the continued sexist oppression of women by the Christian church, and to perpetuate a killing homophobia in our corporate life.

Had I lived in an earlier part of history, I would have seen the Bible quoted to condemn Copernicus, who asserted that the sun did not occupy the center of the universe, and Galileo, who said that the sun did not rotate around the earth. I would have seen the insights of Isaac Newton challenged by a biblical view of God that could only be described as supernatural magic. I would have witnessed the church's attack upon Charles Darwin in the name of a brand of creationism that today is totally dismissed. Perhaps worst of all, I would have watched while religious people appealed to the literal text of the Bible to support the most inhumane treatment of fellow human beings--the institution of slavery.

From the foreword of the book, What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality, by Father Daniel A. Helminiak, Ph.D.

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#722879 - 06/19/03 08:47 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
TomK layeth the smack-down, and I cannot say he is wrong.[/b]
I can. He's wrong.

It's not only his lack of compassion, but that his lack of compassion would make it impossible for people to recognize their sexuality at an early enough age whereby they wouldn't have made mistakes later (and gotten themselves into messes around their own kids to begin with.)

He's wrong regardless of whether homosexuality is wrong (or non-marital sex is just as wrong, as he acknowledges) because his lack of compassion leads to an even greater evil, and that is the one he acknowledges.

He's wrong. Happens to all of us. Wrongheadedness is forgiveable.

Lack of compassion is a little more problematic.[/b]
Well said, my friend.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#722880 - 06/19/03 09:27 AM Re: The Disney Smear
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:1-2
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#722881 - 06/19/03 12:24 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
I'm not sure why the links to the visuals were included.[/b]
The article included the links to *some* photos (there are others on that site that are actually worse) to show people just exactly what it was referring to. This stops people from getting the wrong idea about the event, and someone just thinking "what's the big deal about some gay people being at the park at the same time?" In reality it is a large, public, in-your-face, often pornographic event that no one, especially small children, should be subjected to. And Feingold tried to paint Pryor as a homo-hater because he didn't want his little girls to see it.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#722882 - 06/19/03 01:42 PM Re: The Disney Smear
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Nice set of posts, Tony.

Jodi

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#722883 - 06/19/03 02:00 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tony:
I would have witnessed the church's attack upon Charles Darwin in the name of a brand of creationism that today is totally dismissed.[/b]
Creationsim is totally dismissed? Don't you find that odd to be stated by a bishop whose faith states they believe in creation?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#722884 - 06/19/03 03:09 PM Re: The Disney Smear
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Aren't the Anglicans about to disown the Episcopals due to these kinds of statements?
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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