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#722885 - 06/19/03 03:52 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tony:
I would have witnessed the church's attack upon Charles Darwin in the name of a brand of creationism that today is totally dismissed.[/b]
Creationsim is totally dismissed? Don't you find that odd to be stated by a bishop whose faith states they believe in creation?[/b]
Please read what the Bishop wrote, "a brand of creationism" not "creationism" itself.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722886 - 06/19/03 04:06 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
What "brand" of creationism has been totally dismissed?
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"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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#722887 - 06/19/03 04:11 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
From rvaga:
 Quote:
The students are taught that it is wrong to say anything negative in terms of race or sexuality. The result: the boys seem to have an entire repertoire of off-color race jokes, gay jokes, dumb blonde jokes, etc [/b]
I disagree. The students were not "taught", they were TOLD. And therein lies all the difference in the world.
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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722888 - 06/19/03 04:14 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

True. Is calling a sin a sin, judging?

If homosexuality is a sin, and there are Biblical verses to support that it is, is it judging to say this act is wrong?

Not trying to rank sins, since we are told not to do that, but is it wrong? Does it find favor in God's eyes?

That is the essential question.
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#722889 - 06/19/03 04:17 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
One thing I can say for sure (as far as my beliefs go):

Lack of compassion does not find favor in God's eyes.

(if I were to rank sins, I think I'd put it at the top, and by a long distance.)

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#722890 - 06/19/03 04:19 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
And back to Tomk's assertions about parents, and children.

Parents screw up children everyday, and few are they who will admit it.

That is not to say that all faults of the children are caused by the parents, they are creatures of free will, and can make their own mistakes.

But how many times do you catch yourself in the act of doing something, and the thought crosses your mind - I've suddenly become my parents! That street goes both ways, good, and bad.
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#722891 - 06/19/03 04:20 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Ok Shant,

Is accepting sin, and showing compassion, the same thing?
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#722892 - 06/19/03 04:33 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Ok Shant,

Is accepting sin, and showing compassion, the same thing?[/b]
I am prepared to accept the small handful of short Biblical admonitions that homosexuality is sinful as soon as those who use these as the basis for their condemnation, agree to and implement all other Biblical admonitions defined in the law -- up to an including their obligations to kill their children under the proper circumstances, make animal and grain sacrifices as prescribed in the Torah and all of the other laws that are laid down.

Or, if one wants use the one, small, reference in the New Testament, from Paul, I will accept that as defining homosexuality as sinful as soon as the those who use this admonition are as vehement about bringing the slavery and other social institutions Paul supported and counseled as they are to condemning homosexuals.

If, however, those who use a handful of small phrases in an entire Bible as literal while they exclude others as "we've moved past that", then I would argue we can move past this handful as well.

So, Jolly, when was the last time you followed God's law and went to Jerusalem and offered an animal sacrifice? And when was the last time you were involved in stoning a woman adulteress as God has ordered you to do?
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
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#722893 - 06/19/03 04:38 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
And when was the last time you were involved in stoning a woman adulteress as God has ordered you to do?[/b]
Hey Jolly, I'll give you my ex-wife's address.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#722894 - 06/19/03 04:55 PM Re: The Disney Smear
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
rvaga:
The students are taught that it is wrong to say anything negative in terms of race or sexuality. The result: the boys seem to have an entire repertoire of off-color race jokes, gay jokes, dumb blonde jokes, etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ariel:
I disagree. The students were not "taught", they were TOLD. And therein lies all the difference in the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ariel. . . semantics, at least in the general point I was trying to make.

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#722895 - 06/19/03 05:00 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
What "brand" of creationism has been totally dismissed?[/b]
I would assume that the Bishop was referring to the notion of creation as was it was widely understood in 19th Century England.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722896 - 06/19/03 05:01 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Paul may (or may not) have had it in for gay folks; Jesus had it in for bankers (he also did not approve of people who pray in public, even in churches.)

But, I'll admit, I even have some rich people among my friends. I just wish they wouldn't flaunt it.

(Get out that eye of the needle, and start measuring! or did he mean the Space Needle? :p )

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#722897 - 06/19/03 05:05 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
Paul may (or may not) have had it in for gay folks; Jesus had it in for bankers.

[/b]
I knew there was a good reason for me not to trust MBA's.
It was in my RC upbringing. ;\)
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722898 - 06/19/03 05:47 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Shant wrote:
 Quote:
Get out that eye of the needle, and start measuring! or did he mean the Space Needle? )
Uh, Shant. The "eye of the needle" refers to a certain type of gate found on the walls of the city of Jerusalem. To go through this small gate, a camel had to get on its' knees and shuffle through - it is a verse about humility.
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#722899 - 06/19/03 05:48 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
And to LP,

Sorry Lp, I'm Christian, not Jewish - but if you'd like to be stoned, I have a nice collection of rocks. ;\)
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722900 - 06/19/03 06:04 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Shant wrote:
 Quote:
Get out that eye of the needle, and start measuring! or did he mean the Space Needle? )
Uh, Shant. The "eye of the needle" refers to a certain type of gate found on the walls of the city of Jerusalem. To go through this small gate, a camel had to get on its' knees and shuffle through - it is a verse about humility.[/b]
Right. And he wasn't really referring to "bankers", only "moneylenders"; and he wasn't really telling people not to pray in "churches", only in "synagogues"; and he wasn't really telling people to forsake their mothers and fathers and follow him, only other people's fathers and mothers; and he wasn't telling folks not to lay up stuff against tomorrow, but rather to invest it in 5-year Treasury Bills; and he really didn't tell anyone to sell all they have and give it to the poor -- what he really said was sell everything at a great profit, and let little bits of it trickle down....

Yes, I know all about "allegory".

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#722901 - 06/19/03 06:13 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
A few points that I think need clarification:

Tomk's assertions that messed up kids are the by-product of messed up parents may very well be true. BUT, it isn't always true. AND the comment was directed at someone whose suffering, and subsequent "messed up" kid was something she didn't have a scrap of control over. For Christ's sake, have a heart people.

Although I rarely understand where Shant is coming from, I like him a lot. He has a heart. Perhaps a bit too liberal for my tastes, but there is real human kindness behind his posts. Which is more than I can say for *some* people.

That said, his posts in this thread have not been "out there" in the least. And Jolly, quite frankly I am surprised at you - you are trying to spin his comments about compassion into acceptance of sin. I think we all know what he meant. His comment about God not looking favorably upon people who have no compassion was a "stand alone" comment. It wasn't bundled in with a bunch of other far-left statements.

Derick
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#722902 - 06/19/03 06:14 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
It's not allegory.

The common term for the gate during the time was the eye of the needle, or needle's eye.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722903 - 06/19/03 06:17 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
And to Derick,

I'm not trying to twist his words. What I am trying to show is that sin is sin, no matter where it falls. One can have, and should have, compassion for the sinner, but don't equate compassion with acceptance, because one is not the other.
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#722904 - 06/19/03 06:23 PM Re: The Disney Smear
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Whether or not I agree with Shantinik's notions, I am impressed with the fact that he is so close to such a big needle. He must be doing something right.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#722905 - 06/19/03 06:26 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Jolly,

The way I read this thread, Shant's comments about compassion were directed towards TomK's utterly compassionless post.

Nowhere did I get the idea that he was saying we should be loving, kind, forgiving and understanding of sinners.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722906 - 06/19/03 06:29 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
It's not allegory.

The common term for the gate during the time was the eye of the needle, or needle's eye.[/b]
Even in your version, it is a verse about the DIFFICULTY in getting through the gate.

(you've allegorically turned a literal story about "difficulty" into a story about "humility".

Yes, I do know what allegory is. Compassion, too.

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#722907 - 06/19/03 06:34 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
There are several divergent themes within the post, and if that was not his meaning, then statement retracted.

However....

Back to TomK's post...

While I think that Tom has done better job of phraseology on most occasions, and he may not be completely right, there's a kernel of truth in the post if we can get past the blast, and the fury.

Parents do screw kids up. Lots of times. And most never realize it.

I'm sure I've done it myself.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722908 - 06/19/03 06:35 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Jolly,

The way I read this thread, Shant's comments about compassion were directed towards TomK's utterly compassionless post.

Nowhere did I get the idea that he was saying we should be loving, kind, forgiving and understanding of sinners.

Derick[/b]
I wasn't trying to address sin one way or the other. (which is why I never answered Gryphon's post.) What I was trying to say is that one should be understanding as to how lack of compassion itself (which TomK was exemplifying) could lead to the very real human problem and behavior that he was so quick to excoriate.

A kernel of truth was there, but in his rush to get there, he crushed a whole bushel of it.

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#722909 - 06/19/03 06:37 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Dear Shant,

You lead your camel any way you want it. If communists believe in individual ownership of camels, that is.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722910 - 06/19/03 07:11 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hey, if you prefer the Blessed are the Cheesemakers School of Theology, and are stuck on humble camels, who am I to argue? Diversity is nature's way of caring for the species.

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#722911 - 06/19/03 07:18 PM Re: The Disney Smear
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Excuse me for diversifying for a moment...

Did you hear about the new cheese factory in the middle east called Cheeses of Nazareth?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#722912 - 06/19/03 10:26 PM Re: The Disney Smear
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Uh, Shant. The "eye of the needle" refers to a certain type of gate found on the walls of the city of Jerusalem. To go through this small gate, a camel had to get on its' knees and shuffle through - it is a verse about humility.[/b]
OFF TOPIC

That's certainly one of the explanations regarding the small gate opened at night when the large gate was closed. Unfortunately, other sources--found while researching a Sunday School lesson--claim that this terminology wasn't used until the second millennium. Thus, while humility is the teaching, the crawling camel thing may not be what Jesus was referring to.

ON TOPIC

I somewhat surprised that the recent Canadian changes haven't made their way into this discussion.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#722913 - 06/19/03 10:40 PM Re: The Disney Smear
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
DT:
I somewhat surprised that the recent Canadian changes haven't made their way into this discussion.
Do you mean the gay marriages that will become legal in Canada?

It was brought up. But, there are a few that like to resort to hitting each other over the head with their respective interpretation of the Bible every so often.
Once they feel better, the general subject area stumbles back in. . .

\:D

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#722914 - 06/19/03 10:48 PM Re: The Disney Smear
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
\:o I admit it. I didn't read all of every post in this thread. And I'm not going back to find it. :p \:D
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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