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Topic Options
#722915 - 06/19/03 11:00 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
As I understand it, (Our Canadian brothers and sisters can correct what I have wrong) three Provincial Courts have ruled that gays must be allowed to marry under the Canadian Constitution. The Canadian Government has announced it will not appeal these rulings, but will introduce legislation allowing gay marriage in Parliament. The law is expected to pass.

At the same time. Tony Blair has announced his government intends to do the same thing in Great Britain this year.

The changes in Canadian law (and potential British Law) are going to make things very interesting for the US. Will the US no longer recognize Canadian amd British marriages? On what basis would they not do so? Can all of the so-called defense of marriage acts the states have passed negate a marriage performed under foreign laws, or are they limited to to just not recognizing marriages in other US States?

Adding to this jumble is the pending decision by the Massachusetts Supreme Court which is expected to rule in the next few weeks that gay marriages must be allowed under the Massachusetts Constitution. This will make Massachusetts the second state that is being ordered to grant equal civil status to same sex marriages. Several other state courts have similar suits pending. Vermont and Massachusetts are setting the precendts needed for these other states.

It appears the tide is turning and that the movement has begun to ensure equal protection under the law to gay couples. While there will be those that try, I doubt the trend can be stopped, only delayed
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#722916 - 06/19/03 11:11 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Uh, Shant. The "eye of the needle" refers to a certain type of gate found on the walls of the city of Jerusalem. To go through this small gate, a camel had to get on its' knees and shuffle through - it is a verse about humility.[/b]
OFF TOPIC

That's certainly one of the explanations regarding the small gate opened at night when the large gate was closed. Unfortunately, other sources--found while researching a Sunday School lesson--claim that this terminology wasn't used until the second millennium. Thus, while humility is the teaching, the crawling camel thing may not be what Jesus was referring to.

[/b]
OFF TOPIC (with apologies) --

DT -- in all seriousness, with no rhetorical quality to my question, and with some hardwon humility on my own part, may I ask, respectfully, why you think the literal teaching (that it is difficult for the rich to enter heaven) must be discarded in favor of a metaphorical one? Is it simply because it makes us uncomfortable? I find so much in Jesus' teaching (not Paul's, but Jesus') that is disquieting to modern middle class sensibilities that I don't find this one particularly surprising, but is there a deeper reason why you think the literal meaning of the words should be discarded?

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#722917 - 06/19/03 11:49 PM Re: The Disney Smear
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
No. I misspoke, er, mistyped. I have always read that passage as referring to the difficulties that earthly riches bring and the needle reference was to a sewing utensil. I had heard Jolly's gate/camel story but found it disputed while there is no dispute that sewing needles existed and it's pretty hard for a camel to fit through the eye. A literal reading and examination of why it's true suffice.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#722918 - 06/20/03 12:54 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:

The changes in Canadian law (and potential British Law) are going to make things very interesting for the US. Will the US no longer recognize Canadian amd British marriages? On what basis would they not do so? Can all of the so-called defense of marriage acts the states have passed negate a marriage performed under foreign laws, or are they limited to to just not recognizing marriages in other US States?

[/b]
This is an interesting question which until you mentioned it I had not even given a moments thought. Even though I cannot understand why gays would want to get married, I have no problem with having laws in place that recognize the union. But what you raise here could have some very interesting implications on US Immigration policies in future. It could also have implications on the status of legal guardianship of children.

Already the howling and gnashing of teeth over this decision to proceed with Gay marriages is being felt here in Canada. What you may not have heard in the US is that there are voices within the Gay community that are openly against it for purely legal reasons. To tell you the truth I, along with most Canadians it seems, haven't really been following the debate that closely. The Alberta Provincial G'ovt under the Premiership of King Ralph I, is threatening to invoke the Notwithstanding clause in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in order to opt out of the law. Knowing Ralph and his cronies they probably will do it simply beacuse they equate homosexuality with socialism or even worse, creeping communism.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722919 - 06/20/03 01:34 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Tony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 151
Loc: Houston
Seems to me there are several arguments against a literal interpretation of the Bible. To name but a few:

1. From which translation do you interpretation?

2. There are several years, probably centuries, between the alleged occurances and their being recorded and finally amassed into what has become known as the Bible. None of us would place much stock in the details of hearsay evidence few hundred years old.

3. A relatively small percent of the world's population regard the Bible as anything more than an interesting collection of old stories, if they regard it at all.

4. Even those who claim being literalists seem to give credence to some parts of the Bible while disregarding others; to mention but a few:

Keep: (1)Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: it is an abomination"

Disregard: (2)Leviticus 18:19 "You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness"

Disregard: (3)Leviticus 18:20 "You shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, and defile yourself with her."

Disregard: (4) Leviticus 19: 9 When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field to its very boarder, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest."

Disregard:(5) Leviticus 19:15 "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, . . ."

Disregard:(6) Leviticus 19:16 "You shall not go up and down as a slanderer among your perople, . . ."

Disregard: (7) Leviticus 19:19 "You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two kinds of stuff."

These are from the Revised Standard Version and all appear on the same page. Just for the record and for the purist amongst us, I did look for the King James, but couldn't find it tonight.

Never shall forget hearing a very devout woman say with the greatest sincerity "If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" This was in reference to the King James.

And by the way, as best I can tell, the allegedly most schollarly of Biblical scholars don't agree about interpretations, except perhaps when they are members of the same fundamentalist sect.

It seems unthinkable to use such a devise as an excuse for bigotry and cruelty.

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#722920 - 06/20/03 01:36 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
[QUOTE] Even though I cannot understand why gays would want to get married, I have no problem with having laws in place that recognize the union. [/b]
I suspect, Renauda, that the desire for marriage is stronger in the US than in Canada. As I understand it, you Canadians extended the civil benefits to same sex couples long ago. Therefore, for you, a marriage is more a formality than actually achieving a certain legal status.

This is not true in the US. Many of the civil benefits that come from marriage are denied to same sex couples here in the US, even though almost all states have provisions for common law marriages among couples of opposite sex. Thus, herein the US, marriage confers legal benefits even among those who never go through the ceremony and these benefits are not conferred otherwise. Hence, the strong desire of many gays in the US to marry.

I have always found it interesting that here in the US we allow child abusers, wife abusers, pedophiles, drug addicts, even convicted murderers on death row to marry. But we do not allow two people who truly love each other and want to formalize their life commitment to marry -- simply because they are the same gender. It makes no sense to me.

It is argued, of course, that allowing gay men and lesbians to marry will undermine marriage. I cannot understand the logic of how more people placing such a value on something that they want it undermines something. To me gay marriage would strengthen the institution because it would simply further show how important a covenanted, lifetime commitment is to people. Not a bad lesson.

Even if it could possibly have some sort of negative impact on marriage, the number of gay marriages that would take place as a percentage of the number of heterosexual marriages is so small that they would hardly be a ripple in the ocean.

But, the fight is now on, and it will become even more interesting in the next several years. As I said above, though, I think the handwriting is on the wall and the eventual outcome is already determined. From here on, it is just a lot of nasty fighting against an unfolding process.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#722921 - 06/20/03 02:09 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Tony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 151
Loc: Houston
Gryphon - Just read your statement about the Episcopal church believing creationism. I can't think of anything in church dogma, Episcopal or Anglican, which references creationism. Even as long ago as my confirmation in the early 60's, the church adamantly discouraged literal interpretations.

DT- My understanding is quite different from your comment about the American church being in trouble with the Anglican Communion, it is more likely to be in trouble because of the conservative views of some bishops. The church here is much more conservative than any others within the Anglican Communion except for some of the African bishops.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has been very outspoken in his oppostion to discrimination against gay people. Even in the Texas diocese - one of the most conservative in the US - the Dean apologized from the cathedral pulpit for the injustice and cruelty the church has imposed on "our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

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#722922 - 06/20/03 04:30 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
To all the bible thumping, American capitalist pigs here on Piano World ;\) have I got NEWWWWS for YOU! (A line ripped from a gay anthem). And, if I do say so myself, I have to pat myself on the back for this post. Because by the end of it, you'll all find your hearts flooded with compassion for sinning homosexuals and wake-up every morning singing "It's Raining Men"!!!

No, I'm not going to hijack this thread; wealthy CEO's, homosexuals, and you, the stockholders, really are, very connected.

Many of you have told me time and time again, when I've blasted corporate America and the fat cats in charge, that CEO's answer to you, the stockholders and that corporations should not give a hoot about their employees. The only thing important to you folks is that the stocks in your portfolios are making money - by hook or by crook.

Almost all of you, turn a blind eye when corporations cut employee benefits and lay-off employees. Ironically, the fact that they only lay-off American employees because of our idiotic labor protection laws (do we have any?)doesn't cause any of you to loose one wink of sleep at night. Oh no. It's just not a problem for you. It's ok, ship the jobs off to India. Ship the jobs off to China. Who gives a crap, all you want is your dividend check. And by golly, you deserve it.

Just as long as your job is intact, and your 401K is making money, you are sleeping like a baby but ready in an instant to rip anyone to shreds who challenges your thought processes. Or, better yet, you go into hiding and chalk up another one of my rant's to me running out of my meds...

... ok, I'm back. Just got some intravenous Valium/Lithium/Zoloft cocktail - feeling much better now. Well, providing that $200 copay check clears...

Ok, back to the topic at hand... So how could you, the stockholders, and your god-like CEO's have ANY connection whatsoever with those abhorent homosexuals (as someone referred to them in this thread)? Well, ironically, quite a lot.

Believe it or not, while under absolutely no legal pressure whatsoever, many blue-chip, as American as apple pie, companies, have, all on their own, GIVEN benefits to those evil homosexuals. And not just any evil homosexuals - but the biggest sinners of all. Those that are actually commiting homosexual acts on a, presumably, regular basis.

"But how could this be?" you scream as you start to wake from this awful nightmare??? How could they give benefits to the abhorent people, living in sin, hell-bent on undermining marriage, BENEFITS that cut into your dividend check??? Say it isn't so...

I'm so sorry, I can't. I can't because every day another American company grants, now sit down for this, domestic partner benefits.

But why are major US corporations giving benefits, above and beyond what is required by law, to *THOSE* people, the abhorent sinners, while taking it away from nice, God-fearing, bible-thumping, rah-rah American corporation, heterosexuals that dominate Piano World?

Oh damn, I'm so sorry. I admit, I got carried away and went way over the top. Instead of gently shaking you awake, I felt compelled to dump an entire pail of freezing cold water on your peaceful slumber. NOW you care about diminished employee benefits don't you??? Now your heart is racing and NOW your blood pressure is thru the roof - HOW DARE THEY GIVE BENEFITS TO THOSE PEOPLE.

Well let me try and calm you all down... You see, your gods (a.k.a. greedy CEOs) don't give away money just for the hell of it. Oh no, it's very carefully calculated. And what they have come up with is based on study after study that has shown that homosexuals in stable relationships a) have a lot of disposable income and b) are among the most productive of all employees. Now before you start becoming unglued again, the reason is pretty simple - gays, usually, don't have kids to support or take to ballet, baseball, etc... So they have lots of money and lots of time to devote to employers. To those wonderful blue-chip companies you all hold so near and dear to your hearts.

Are you feeling better now, starting to calm down? As your mama always told you, every dark cloud has a silver-lining. The abhorent homosexuals (the dark clouds) are good for something, pumping up your 401K (the silver lining). Feel better now? Think you can close your eyes now and go back to sleep??? Yes, you're getting sleepy again. Your 401K has never been better with all the gay worker-bees. And now that Canada's going to legalize gay marriage, why all of North America is going to make a conscious choice to become gay!!!Think of how profitable your companies are going to be! Think of your 401K!!! Retirement at age 55! A winter and a summer home! A brand new BMW!! You won't have to settle on a crappy Boesendorfer, no way, it's Fazioli time.

Isn't corporate America a wonderful thing. And maybe now those abhorent homosexuals aren't really all that bad after all... how can they be? They are significant contributors to your dividend check.

You're sleeping like a baby now aren't you?

Derick

P.S.

Humidity is rising.
Barometers getting low - how low now?
According to all sources - what sources now?
The street's the place to go.
'Cause tonight, for the first time,
Just about half-past ten.
For the first time, in history,
it's gonna start raining men.

It's raining men, Halleluiah!
It's raining men, every specimen.
Tall, blond, dark and lean,
rough and tough and strong and mean.

See, I told you you'd be singing it! Now don't forget to go out and hug a homo - when you wake up from your peaceful bliss that is.
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722923 - 06/20/03 09:15 AM Re: The Disney Smear
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Just wondering what you ate for dinner.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#722924 - 06/20/03 09:20 AM Re: The Disney Smear
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Ok, I'm just checking in before I head off to run in the rain, and I haven't read everything in this most excellent thread that has been written since last night, but I see that dependable Derick has mangaged to work those three little letters (c e o) into it, and it made me smile. \:D Jodi

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#722925 - 06/20/03 10:34 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Derick:

You have totally made my day with that post! \:D

Nina

PS: He's right, you know

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#722926 - 06/20/03 10:43 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Actually Derick, I could have retired at 42, I just wanted more money, so I'm hanging in there 'till 52. :p

As to "domestic partner" benefits, a corporation is free to do as it wishes. I personally would not do it, if I owned the company, because I am not a proponent of gay marriage(although I have stated that a legal contract of some kind may be appropriate).
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722927 - 06/20/03 11:25 AM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
TomK,
I respect your opinion. I look at my children and they are great kids and know I do my best. Which is all I ask of them. I've taught my kids to do their best, they don't have to be the best but if they are the best then that's a gift from God. I do my best with the cards God dealt me. My children are very spiritually and emotionally sound. The youngest is questioning his sexuality. What do you expect? He's been called "gay" all his life even in elementary school. He's been beat up on his way home from school. And still he's the most loving and compassionate individual I know. Then after twenty years of marriage his parents get divorced. Do you think I wanted to get divorced? I thought I was happily married for twenty years. My kids were (pride cometh before the fall) proud that their parents were still married. We seemed to most people "the perfect family." I volunteered for Little League, Boy Scouts, Sunday School and at the library. My ex-husband was a nice guy. He was loyal and loving. And honest except when it came to his sexuality. My kids and I have gone thru some very traumatic events. And whether it's a sin or not, if my son turns out to be gay (which I pray he's not) I'm going to love him anyway. I'll grieve and I'll hurt for him. And I'll know that that boy is filled with more love than most people have in their little finger.
I asked the question about "gay day" out of curiousity. It's easy to say you'd do things a certain way and be righteous, until something really testing comes along.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722928 - 06/20/03 11:33 AM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
My Friends Meeting has been taking gay and lesbian marriages under its care since 1987, so it's no big deal to us. My question is whether heterosexual "marriages" are any business of the state? Yes, the kids have to be cared for; yes, there have to be ways to divide the goodies; yes, there has to be someone to sign the DNR order. All of these could easily be taken care of through civil union. But why do we have to build a social order in recognizing chattel relationships?

If "marriage" is a sacrament, let it be that, and keep it out of the civil sphere. "Render under Caesar that which is Caesar's, and keep our husbands and wives as far away from him as possible!" ;\)

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#722929 - 06/20/03 11:47 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Then are we defining deviancy downward?

Can mental gymnastics overcome any divide between right and wrong?

Does rationalization triumph over millenia of religous thought?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722930 - 06/20/03 11:47 AM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
As I understand it, you Canadians extended the civil benefits to same sex couples long ago. Therefore, for you, a marriage is more a formality than actually achieving a certain legal status.

You are correct here. Interestingly Conservative Alberta was one of, if not the first province, to extend civil benefits to gay couples. It was not through altruism or social awareness though. It was on account of Supreme Court of Canada ruling forcing the Alberta G'ovt to extend spousal death benefits to the long time partner of a deceased gay provincial employee.

Derick:

Great post- a classic if I might say so. But I don't think that all of N.A. would want to become gay owing to some piece of Canadian social legislation. Nevertheless I'm sure some CEO's will want to exploit the productivity of gays and incorporate it into their hiring practices. Greed and money are great levellers n'est ce pas?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722931 - 06/20/03 12:01 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


Does rationalization triumph over millenia of religous thought?

[/b]
Cogito ergo sum. Its been the trend for the last 250 years. Its the basis of all modern science.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722932 - 06/20/03 12:06 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Derick, stupendous post. A "save" for me. But are you sure you didn't read that the corporations are extending "same-sex" benefits only to their new Indian and other overseas employees? Soon that may the majority...
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722933 - 06/20/03 12:18 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Then are we defining deviancy downward?
[/b]
What is deviant about one person loving another person, committing him/herself to that other person for a life time and expressing that love physically, emotionally, psychologically and materially?
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#722934 - 06/20/03 12:25 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
I do not see the love between any two consenting adults as deviant.

What I do see as deviant in our modern day societies it is a fascination and addiction we have developed for sensational visual violence- whether for entertainment or informative purposes.
This violence if anything does more to erode the social fabric of the family than any gay union.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722935 - 06/20/03 12:35 PM Re: The Disney Smear
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I am assuming that by "one person loving another person" we are referring to consenting adults.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#722936 - 06/20/03 12:44 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
de·vi·ant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dv-nt)
adj.
Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

n.
One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.

WWW.DICTIONARY.COM

My question is:
Is being gay evil? I don't think so.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722937 - 06/20/03 12:48 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Jolly,

There's nothing inherently evil about wanting more money. The evil part steps in when it turns into greed that tramples the powerless.

Doesn't it make one pause when "Greed" is among the seven deadly sins, but "Homosexuality" is not. Before anyone says it, I know someone is going to lump homosexuality under "Lust" but... The only way homosexuality could possibly be lumped in under this sin would be if people were having indiscriminant sex with both men and women. And all the gays I know are "exclusive" homosexuals. However, I have known one or two individuals who lable themselves as heterosexual to occassionally "cross the fence". The bottom line is that "Lust" must be taken as a "stand alone" sin. We all know people who spend most of their lives trying to, or actually having sex, with as many people as possible; this type of behavor is not the exclusive domain of either sexual orientation.

You are a thrifty man Jolly, and that is commendable. But you will never own a major corporation. And you want to know one reason why you will never own a major corporation? Because you won't offer domestic partner benefits! ;\)
You gotta be competitive in today's market place and you have to pull out all stops to attract top talent. Sorry, no corporation for you. Your a man of fortitude and will not give in. Fortitude, one of the seven heavenly virtues; there's just no room for it in today's corporate America.

Thanks Nina. I hope everyone that reads the post will realize that there is a lot of seriousness, and, food for thought, buried between all the wise-cracks.

Jodi, did you notice that not only did I work in the most evil, three digit character string known to mankind (CEO), I also worked in my favorite three digit acronym; BMW. I purposely left out IBM because they are being investigated by the SEC.

Renauda & Ariel ;\) . BTW, there are no gays in India, it's not permitted. Besides, the savings corporations accrue from firing tens of thousands of Americans and hiring Indians is what's really going to make the stockholders smile.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722938 - 06/20/03 12:52 PM Re: The Disney Smear
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Hang in there Peggy. You are doing great.

Sorry guys - I think it is more important to have a heart guided by love than a bible verse. God speaks in many ways.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#722939 - 06/20/03 12:54 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Peggy:
de·vi·ant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dv-nt)
adj.
Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

n.
One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.

WWW.DICTIONARY.COM

My question is:
Is being gay evil? I don't think so.[/b]
I suppose the issue that divides many on this topic is how the social standard relating to people falling in love and expressing that love is defined.

I would define the social standard as people falling in love, moving towards a committed and covenanted relationship and then living it. It seems to me this has been the norm and the standard for intimate human relations throughout much of human history since the establishment of the Common Era.

Others, of course, would add criteria to this standard -- specifically the way in which two people express their love physically and a determination as to whom they can fall in love with based on gender. Adding these criteria, of course, begs the question of how one is supposed to control natural impulses. But there are those who want to incorporate these criteria in their definition of what is the standard and what is the norm.

As to gay being evil? Well, at one time, being left handed was a sign that one was a witch. We moved past that one. We will move past this one as well.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#722940 - 06/20/03 01:43 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
Will the US no longer recognize Canadian amd British marriages? On what basis would they not do so? [/b]
No, just homosexual ones, on the same basis we do not recognize multiple partner marriages from countries that allow it.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#722941 - 06/20/03 01:50 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Oscar Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 2
First let me state that this post is from a bogus persona. I have been a very active member of the Piano World forums for quite some time. I have always shied away from posting anything when this subject comes up, because I am a gay man. What seems unfortunate is that nearly all of the posts on this subject are from the point of view of people who are unabashedly heterosexual. So, I am offering here a bit of counterpoint to what I consider a rather slanted viewpoint.

There are several points that I would like to address here. First, of course, is the societal acceptance of homosexuals. Obviously, if I felt the climate here was one of tolerance for people like me, I would not feel compelled to post under a pseudonym. It is not that I am ashamed of who I am, but that my sexual identity is only a small component of what makes me who I am. To be defined by my sexuality is just as meaningless to me as being defined by my hair color. Yet, society insists on doing this to us, and in so doing ignores many much more important aspects of our personalities.

Societal, as opposed to legal, acceptance of homosexuality is probably a pipe dream. Most likely the best we can hope for is a sort of equanimity about it, where it is viewed less as immorality or a character flaw than an idiosyncrasy. Until such time, though, thousands upon thousands of homosexuals will continue to practice self-deception in hopes that they can overcome being homosexual. They will lead lives of hypocrisy and deception, hiding their sexual nature from, in extreme cases, even themselves. But what effect does this self-deception have on society?

Let's take the example given in a previous post in this thread. A seemingly average family is torn apart because one spouse can no longer bear the pain of living a life that is based on deception. This, tragically, leads to additional pain for the rest of the family, and that pain and confusion ripples out into manifestations that are detrimental to the physical and mental well-being of those only remotely involved.

Would it not be better to have a social environment where that first person would not have felt compelled to deny his own feelings? Would that not in turn help prevent such family crises? If the social stigma of being a homosexual were lessened, wouldn't that lead to a lesser rate of troubled family situations like this?

Secondly, I would like to take on the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality. As a principle of Christian love, this is the ideal. But how many of us are truly capable of living this ideal? To put this in practical terms, let's build a not-so-hypothetical situation. Let's say that the married pastor of a denomination with a stated moral abhorrence of homosexual acts finally goes public and declares that he has always been a homosexual, whose sexual thoughts had always been for other men. Yet, he says, he will continue to stay with his wife and will not act on his homosexuality. How long would it take before this minister was banished from the congregation, whether formally or just socially? This is where the concept of "love the sinner, hate the sin" becomes mere lip service, because if the minister had kept up the outward appearance of not being homosexual, he would not be rebuked, and nobody would be the wiser. Yet the reality of the situation would remain unchanged. For it is far easier, to say nothing of comforting, to espouse hate only for the sin, while in reality one despises the sinner.

Perhaps you subscribe to the notion that homosexuality itself is not a sin, but that homosexual acts are. This is a fine rationalization that denies one of the essential qualities of being human. If the tables were turned, and heterosexual acts were to be shunned, would you truly have the fortitude to permanently abstain from sexual contact? Few, if any of us, can answer this question sincerely.
Finally, let's examine the idea that the moral authority for suppression of homosexuality rests in received religious text. It strikes me as the pinnacle of moral arrogance to presume that one's interpretation of texts that have been sloppily copied, poorly translated and deliberately altered over the course of millenia is somehow infallible. For those of you who believe in an omniscient but loving Creator, are you prepared for being judged on this conceit? Are you willing to stake your very soul on attempting to interpret the supreme will of God? Strength of conviction is often something to be commended, but in the end, do you believe there's a shopping list of infractions for which points will be deducted at the final reckoning, or do you believe that humility, love for one's fellow man, and gentleness of spirit will be more highly valued?

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#722942 - 06/20/03 02:03 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
Will the US no longer recognize Canadian amd British marriages? On what basis would they not do so? [/b]
No, just homosexual ones, on the same basis we do not recognize multiple partner marriages from countries that allow it.[/b]
Multiple partner marriages are not recognized because of bigamy laws that have as much to do tax law as with civil contract and family law. What if a married gay couple with legally adopted children from Canada move to the US on a green card for work purposes? Is their legal status suddenly null and void? If they were to divorce how would their joint property be divided? What about custody of children? The couple is after all, legally married.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722943 - 06/20/03 02:18 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
"Oscar",

Beautiful post.

I wish you could feel comfortable posting under your real (or at least usual) PW name, but I quite agree that it would be a bad idea.

Hopefully some of those reading your message will think briefly about what it must be like to live permanently feeling that a vital (though not necessarily pivotal) part of your identity has to be hidden. To have to pretend to be other than you are, at least to many (and for some even to oneself), and to feel shame, for no reason under your control.

That's why so many gay adolescents commit suicide, as one earlier poster remarked, not so much killing themselves as stopping being gay the only way they know how.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722944 - 06/20/03 02:18 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Oscar,

Take a bow.

None of the gay haters will touch that post with a 10 foot pole.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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