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Topic Options
#722945 - 06/20/03 02:39 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
Oscar,

Magnificent!

Unfortunately, those who wish to condemn will continue to do so. It is good to see, though, that their numbers grow smaller and smaller.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#722946 - 06/20/03 02:46 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Hat's off to you Oscar for the courage and moral integrity to speak from your heart and soul.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722947 - 06/20/03 02:51 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Oscar,
Saved your post to my favorites to go back to for encouragement when needed. Unfortunately, I think LP is right. Many people will still continue to condemn what they can't accept. I particularly agree with your philosophy of "love the sinner, hate the sin."
Some people could never understand how I don't hate my ex-husband. I feel sad for him. This all comes back to compassion.

comˇpasˇsion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (km-pshn)
n.
Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.
www.dictionary.com
The best to you,
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722948 - 06/20/03 02:54 PM Re: The Disney Smear
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Oscar,

You will burn in hell! (along with the rest of us rich folks ;\) ) :p
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#722949 - 06/20/03 02:57 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Can I come, too? I'll make the coffee. :rolleyes:
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722950 - 06/20/03 02:57 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Oscar,

You will burn in hell! (along with the rest of us rich folks ;\) ) :p [/b]
As my Irish grandmother would exclaim, "I can in fact smell the cinders from where I be sitting. "
;\)
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722951 - 06/20/03 03:03 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Peggy:
Some people could never understand how I don't hate my ex-husband. I feel sad for him. This all comes back to compassion.
[/b]
Peggy,

I know of three other couple who have been through what you and your husband have been through. One it was the woman who left and for the other two it was the man. All of them accured near the 20th year, give or take, of their marriage.

Interestingly, only one of the couples is no longer having much contact. With the other two, their marriage may have ended, but their support, love and respect for each other has been maintained and strengthened, even though it is on a very different plane than before. In both cases, the couples remain very, very close and intimate friends.

Yes, I understand that you do not hate your ex. I would say it is more than compassion, though. It is a sign of loving an individual so totally and purely that you truly do want the best for him/her even if it hurts you when they get it.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#722952 - 06/20/03 03:24 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
None of the gay haters will touch that post with a 10 foot pole.
Yes I will.

And no, I may not even stoop to your level of phraseology.

Would a congregation have tolerance for an admittedly homosexual pastor? Not if the congregation believed that homosexuality was wrong, and a sin.

Because even though a pastor should be considered as an equal to the members, in reality he is not. He is considered a leader of the church. As such, he may be held to a higher standard, and usually is. I know numerous pastors who have lost churches because of a divorce. I know one who lost his church because of alcohol dependence. I know a pastor who lost a church because of marital infidelity.

Why should the admittedly homosexual pastor be treated differently?

Membership in the laity is a different matter. Just as a congregation would not withdraw its' fellowship from a member with a chemical dependency, a member who is convicted of a crime, a member who is unfaithful to their spouse, or is divorced, the sin of homosexuality ranks no higher than any of the others. Or no lower.

So yes, I think one can hate the sin, but still love the sinner.

And yes, this is posted under my regular handle. I seem not to have multiple sock puppets as so many of you do.

I tend not to lie in real life, either.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722953 - 06/20/03 03:32 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Jolly,
Okay, what would you do? How would you handle the situation I'm in? What if he turns out to be gay (which I pray for his sake he's not)do I disown him? I'm serious. I read your posts daily with great interest, and agree with you a lot of the time.
Respectfully,
Peggy

PS this cup of coffe has a lot of meaning to me. Thanx.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722954 - 06/20/03 03:37 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
I'm talking about my son.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722955 - 06/20/03 03:39 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Jolly,

Don't forget that Oscar specified that the Pastor would remain with his wife and not act on his homosexuality. I think even Dr.James Dobson wouldn't have a problem with this scenario. I subscribe to "Focus on the Family", and homosexuality is a hot topic there.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722956 - 06/20/03 03:47 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
 Quote:
And no, I may not even stoop to your level of phraseology.[/b]
I apologize, the phrase "gay hater" was uncalled for. I don't know the term to use for people who share your opinion - but "gay hater" is over the top. Plus, not to offer an excuse, but I am completely wiped out today.

Anyway, I have to ask why you made the comment about aliases and sock puppets and lies? I mean this guy comes out up front and says he's a poster on the forum and explains why he is using a different handle - and he has a perfectly reasonable explanation for doing so. I don't understand why you would attack him for that.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722957 - 06/20/03 03:56 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Don't forget that Oscar specified that the Pastor would remain with his wife and not act on his homosexuality.[/b]
Ariel raises a good point here. An ordained RC priest takes a vow of celibacy regardless of his sexual preference. The vow of celibacy is absolute provided he strictly adheres to it. How can the hypothetical pastor in Oscar's example be judged by his congregation if he has never actually performed a homosexual act but merely stated his sexual preference? A celibate priest remains celibate and within the canonical laws of the Roman Church regardless of his sexual preference.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722958 - 06/20/03 04:02 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Oscar,

You will burn in hell! (along with the rest of us rich folks ;\) ) :p [/b]
"Hell hath no limits. Hell is where you are." (if you choose it.)

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#722959 - 06/20/03 04:03 PM Re: The Disney Smear
LadyElton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 521
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
I was trying to avoid this thread, but after seeing some of the posts I just want to comment. First, concerning Gay Day at Disney World - no one is forcing anyone to go or to accept those who do attend. If one has religous views on homosexuality, that's fine. I do think think everyone needs to be tolerant, which for me basically is "live and let live." I, personally, wouldn't go to Gay Day because I don't feel I relate to that part of the LGBTQ community. If I do go to any gay events, it might be a more local pride fest. (I also don't like large crowds) I'm out to my family (basically my immediate family as I don't see other relatives very often), my friends and here at work. I only lost one "friend" after I came out to her, which is her loss not mine.

I don't understand the opposition to gay marriages from a legal standpoint. As for religious unions, that's more of a personal thing and left up to the religous institutions. (I'm a pagan so that doesn't apply to me anyway. \:\) ) To me, a marriage is a piece of paper or contract - from a technical legal view. The spiritual bond between two people who love each other is more important. (There have been gay weddings/commitment ceremonies/handfastings for a long time.) Yet I still don't get being against allowing gays to marry to get equal legal benefits. I'd still feel the same way if I was heterosexual.

Peggy - you're a good mother who is doing the best she can. If your son is gay, love him like you always have. He's the same person, regardless of his sexual orientation. I agree that counseling might help especially with issues regarding depression. Hang in there. Take care. Peace.

Hilary aka LadyElton
_________________________
Hilary aka LadyElton

********************

Check out my blog

"Looking like a true survivor..."
-- Sir EJ/BT '83

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#722960 - 06/20/03 04:09 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
An ordained RC priest takes a vow of celibacy regardless of his sexual preference. The vow of celibacy is absolute provided he strictly adheres to it. How can the hypothetical pastor in Oscar's example be judged by his congregation if he has never actually performed a homosexual act?[/QB]
Would you have more respect for a priest who entered the priesthood knowing his sexual tendencies were for men, but because of religious beliefs would rather "marry" Christ (In the RC church they are referred to as "Brides of Christ) than marry a man? And, of course, this hpothetical priest would remain (tho it would be tough to do) celibate.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722961 - 06/20/03 04:11 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Oscar Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 2
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
And yes, this is posted under my regular handle. I seem not to have multiple sock puppets as so many of you do.

I tend not to lie in real life, either.[/b]
So, then you have a problem with deliberate deception. As do I. I do not lie about who I am. When asked directly, I answer truthfully. However, I do not volunteer something that I consider intensely private to those with whom I do not share a certain level of intimacy. Nor, I am sure, do most of us.

But there are those who feel they must be deliberately deceptive about this aspect of their lives all of the time. I used to be one of them, but I came to the realization that the pretense was transparent to God. One can't fool God, unlike the pastor I referenced could have fooled his congregation if he had just not let the cat out of the bag.

There are many things that were once considered sinful that one has to shake one's head in wonder when reflecting on them today. Is it a sin for a woman to enter a house of worship with her head uncovered? Is it a sin to divorce for reasons other than adultery? Is it a sin to withhold one's wealth from the church? Is it a sin to collect interest on a loan? These are all apparent precepts from the New Testament that are seldom followed any more. Moreover, none of them is an utterance from Jesus Christ himself. As man seeks to propagate his influence over his fellow man, the interpretation of the will of God is often the first casualty. Every human is fallible, and every human narrator and transcriber with Divine inspiration is just as capable of misinterpreting as the next person. As such, I will never claim that I have the true, received Word of God in any form. If one can learn to gloss over the potentially faulty details and examine the overlying message of Holy Scripture, the concept is incredibly simple. Many, however, are incapable of seeing the forest for the trees in their zeal to examine the minutiae.

I find my sock puppetry here particularly distasteful, and I have been known to publicly decry others for it. Thus, this will be "Oscar's" final post on this or any other subject.

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#722962 - 06/20/03 04:18 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Thank you, Lady Elton, we do the best we can. Difficult times seem to strengthen us and make us more tolerant. It's unfortunate the boys have gone thru what they have and are still going thru but I believe it's making them stronger and better individuals. The older one is going thru a more difficult time than the younger one. He's angry, even tho' he tries very hard not to be.
It's funny but he's the one I pray for the most.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722963 - 06/20/03 04:24 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Peggy:
Would you have more respect for a priest who entered the priesthood knowing his sexual tendencies were for men, but because of religious beliefs would rather "marry" Christ (In the RC church they are referred to as "Brides of Christ) than marry a man? And, of course, this hpothetical priest would remain (tho it would be tough to do) celibate.[/QB]
If I understand your question correctly, you are asking me whether I would respect a celibate heterosexual priest more than celibate homosexual priest? As I said the vow of celibacy is absolute regardless of sexual preference. It would therefore make no difference. I would have to respect both equally because they have, as you say, chosen "to marry Christ" by accepting their vocation.

As to my level of respect for a person it depends entirely on their individual character. Their sexual preference means nothing to me. I know a number of gay men and women whom I respect very much because they are genuine. I know even more heterosexuals for whom I have no respect because they are quite artificial.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your question. I did edit the post a tad after you quoted it so you may want to have another look at it before responding to this.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722964 - 06/20/03 04:48 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by shant: I can. He's wrong.
It's not only his lack of compassion, but that his lack of compassion would make it impossible for people to recognize their sexuality at an early enough age whereby they wouldn't have made mistakes later (and gotten themselves into messes around their own kids to begin with.)

He's wrong regardless of whether homosexuality is wrong (or non-marital sex is just as wrong, as he acknowledges) because his lack of compassion leads to an even greater evil, and that is the one he acknowledges.

He's wrong. Happens to all of us. Wrongheadedness is forgivable.

Lack of compassion is a little more problematic. [/b]
I think you missed my point, (and it could be my fault.) I was not objecting to Peggy's kid being (or not being) gay--I was objecting to the fact that she doesn't seem to know WHO HE IS!

I have compassion. And a lot of it--just, not for the parent in this case, Peggy.

A kid hopes to expect more from life than a Mom that asks for guidance on a piano forum if she should take her kid to "Gay Day" at Disney.

Ask about pianos here FINE--but asking about how to lead your screwed up life, it's--PROBLEMATIC.

Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you see something odd here?

Hay Peggy, you should find help. Go find advice, but should you do it on a piano forum? Get a life, woman.

Maybe I'm wrong--maybe we're all a bunch of brain scientists. Maybe we all know everything.

(And this is my objection to Ariel--[I'm sure she's a sweetheart personally,] but I think IT'S JUST NOT OUT BUSINESS to dispense really personal psychological advise to strangers.)

shant, my compassion is from the heart--not the head.

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#722965 - 06/20/03 04:59 PM Re: The Disney Smear
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
None of the gay haters will touch that post with a 10 foot pole.
Yes I will.

And no, I may not even stoop to your level of phraseology.

Would a congregation have tolerance for an admittedly homosexual pastor? Not if the congregation believed that homosexuality was wrong, and a sin.

Because even though a pastor should be considered as an equal to the members, in reality he is not. He is considered a leader of the church. As such, he may be held to a higher standard, and usually is. I know numerous pastors who have lost churches because of a divorce. I know one who lost his church because of alcohol dependence. I know a pastor who lost a church because of marital infidelity.

Why should the admittedly homosexual pastor be treated differently?

Membership in the laity is a different matter. Just as a congregation would not withdraw its' fellowship from a member with a chemical dependency, a member who is convicted of a crime, a member who is unfaithful to their spouse, or is divorced, the sin of homosexuality ranks no higher than any of the others. Or no lower.

So yes, I think one can hate the sin, but still love the sinner.

And yes, this is posted under my regular handle. I seem not to have multiple sock puppets as so many of you do.

I tend not to lie in real life, either.[/b]
Thanks Jolly. What I was thinking but didn't have the guts to say...
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#722966 - 06/20/03 05:05 PM Re: The Disney Smear
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Dear TomK --

I'll grant you good intentions.

If it were me, I would have written it a bit differently:

"Dear Peggy --

As a father, I can appreciate the feelings of anguish you must be having for your son, as you sense his pain. My heart goes out to you as you try to navigate what are obviously very difficult waters for the both of you, and I sincerely hope that once you both come through it, you will both look back and remember what a blessing it was (and is) to have each other.

But, also as a father, and as a friendly on-line acquaintance, even if not as a friend, I would have you ask yourself whether this is a discussion you really want to be having on a Piano Forum list? I mean so many of us, including myself, carry around so much baggage, not only about the question you asked, but around so many issues, that you may be opening yourself up unnecessarily to hurt. I doubt there is anyone here who would do that intentionally (though I have occasionally seen some ugly turns to our conversations), but if you really need to talk about it, are you sure this is the right place?

Can I (off-list of course) perhaps help you think about a better place to turn?

TomK"

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#722967 - 06/20/03 05:15 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
shant,

Never said you weren't a better man than I am.

Wouldn't have said that myself--but well said.

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#722968 - 06/20/03 05:19 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I haven't read this whole thread, so what I'm going to say may have already been said.

I believe two things with equal conviction: first, that homosexuality is genetic. A person can't be taught or urged to be gay, or straight. Second, I believe that God has said that engaging in homosexuality is a sin.

I don't know why He has said this. And it seems difficult or harsh to acknowledge, when considering the many gay friends and aquaintances that I've had over the years, that are decent, otherwise "normal" people who are just tying to get along like everyone else. Their sexuality, as Oscar said, is only one facet of who they are, just as my own sexuality is only a facet, and not the main identifier, of my self identity.

So I'm faced with this seeming contradiction, that decent, fine people that I know are genetically wired to desire to engage in acts that God has said is sinful, and that grates on my sense of logic, and the definition of God's love.

Or is it a contradiction? Upon reflection, I realized that a.)God does not distinguish sin in gradations; and b.)not only homosexuals, but ALL OF US are genetically wired to disobey God's ideal, and we sin. As Paul wrote, That which I would not do, I do." That, by definition, is our humanity. We all have a need for a sort of cosmic "gene therapy," in the form of God's grace, to save us from the state of separation from God caused by our inherent sinful nature.

So, is a person practicing homosexuality a sinner? Yes. So what? So am I, a dozen different ways that are no better or worse than homosexuality, every day. While I acknowledge God's opinion that homosexuality is a sin, I also accept His word that all sin is equally sinful, and that all have sinned and fallen short of His glory. So my opinion is to treat others who are in the exact same sinful state in which I find myself, in the same manner in which I would want to be treated. If I'm not mistaken, there's some scriptural basis for that, too.

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#722969 - 06/20/03 05:25 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
shantinik, well said. Peggy, I second shantinik's thoughts. My silence to your touching posts has not been out of lack of caring, but out of a belief that some things must be dealt with much more personally than could ever be achieved by typing into a little white box.

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#722970 - 06/20/03 05:25 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
TomK,
Having given a lot of thought to your post, you're probably right. After sending the initial post I regretted it. But, the responses to the post were inspirational and encouraging. No, I don't want to air my dirty laundry on a piano forum, but, I do want to open people's eyes to real life issues. In reading some of the posts written, I've learned that I am not alone and others are going thru similar situations. It's interesting to me to find out how different people would handle certain unconventional things. It's also nice to be able to receive input from sources outside my family and friends who are continually giving advice. I think some of the posts posted in this particular thread were beautiful.
Call me a bad mom with no life if you want to. That's your opinion, but, this thread was a great help to me.
I apologize to any one who felt this was an inappropriate topic of discussion and thank all who felt the desire to help.
Respectfully,
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722971 - 06/20/03 05:33 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Back to weigh in on Peggy's question, and a bit of response to Dwain...

I'm not convinced that there is a "gay gene". I do think, and have no scientific basis for, that some people are more pre-disposed that way.

Yet some people are more pre-disposed to be alcoholics, or substance abusers. Some people are pre-disposed to certain mental disorders. Some people are pre-disposed to have higher sexual drives. Folks are pre-disposed to be, or do, or engage in, a lot of different behavior.

That doesn't mean that they must.

Now I'll quit talking, and go to meddling....

In Peggy's case, it is an extremely difficult situation. A lot of kids question everything in their teen years, including their sexuality. If it were my child I would encourage the heterosexual traits of life, and gently steer him towards them. If the child is on the fence, perhaps it will help him fall on that side.

If he chooses to be a homosexual, I would discourage the practice. However, he's still your child, and while you may not condone the behavior, nobody turns away from their child.

You do what the rest of us do - muddle through as best as possible, and love them as much as you ever did. No matter how much we'd like to think otherwise, God endowed all of us with Free Will, and the only person who can change the individual, is the individual himself.

As much as we would like to have our collective egos inflated, TomK is right on one fact in his previous post - we may all be cyberfriends, and a decent sounding board, but this is not the place I would choose for help with my problems.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#722972 - 06/20/03 05:33 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by Peggy: TomK is right on one fact in his previous post - we may all be cyberfriends, and a decent sounding board, but this is not the place I would choose for help with my problems. [/b]
Exactly, you don't know who we are. Go someplace where you can look someone in the eye.

Best of luck. As much as it didn't seem so at the time--I mean the best for you.

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#722973 - 06/20/03 05:42 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Dear Peggy,

Better said the first time before you start feeling sorry for yourself.

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#722974 - 06/20/03 05:58 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Peggy, you certainly didn't offend me by supposedly airing your "dirty laundry" on the forum. From time to time, people around here have seen my own laundry basket in occasional threads, and responses from online friends were very helpful. Still, I just wouldn't want this to be your sole soundboard, piano pun intended. \:\)

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