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#722975 - 06/20/03 06:01 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Typically, men do not seek help on highly personal issues. Women do. I think that's a genetic thing or predisposition. Call it what you will, but the sexes differ.

I wouldn't ask a question like that here, but I know my wife would. And if I had to place a bet on who would ultimately arrive at the best solution, I'd have to say it would be my wife. For the simple reason that she sought, and sifted thru many different perspectives.

Peggy did a brave thing and will arrive at her own unique solution, part of which might actually be attributable to the different persepctives she recieved right here.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#722976 - 06/20/03 06:09 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
TomK, you do not set the agenda here, none of us do. There have been many personally deep issues discussed in these forums over the years and as far as I'm concerned Peggy is welcome to ask advice any time she so desires. The internet is a great resource and a way to get diverse opinions on just about any subject matter. She can take it or leave it. No one here is pretending to be Dr. Joyce Brothers.

Peggy, you needn't apologize to TomK or anyone else for raising your question. You have given all of us the opportunity to voice our opinions and congratulations are in order that we have had the courage to chime in.

Edited:
The world will never be free of bigots nor will these forums. The most we can hope for is that through discussion, they may catch a glimpse of the contradictions in their lives.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722977 - 06/20/03 06:10 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
TomK,
Just who do you think you are? God? Who are you to judge? You're posts were the most arrogant and obnoxious posts I've ever read. Do you enjoy being so righteous? I think you should "get a life" so to speak. I already have one and it's pretty d*** complicated.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722978 - 06/20/03 06:11 PM Re: The Disney Smear
LadyElton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 521
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Peggy- don't let them get to you. I don't think you're airing your 'dirty laundry' or feeling sorry for yourself. The way some people react on this board are the VERY reason why I almost decied not to come out. I came out to my parents when I was 23, so I guess they're bad for not knowing their daughter is a dyke. Society expects everyone to be a heterosexual 'muggle' (I'm waiting on my Harry Potter book - can ya tell? ;\) ) and when someone they love isn't, the person is practically ostracized. Let's see people will call me evil, a pervert, I could get taunted, beat up or lynched - oh yeah, let me come storming out of the closet. As for no proof of the 'gay gene', there's no proof of a 'straight gene', is there? Peace.

LadyElton
_________________________
Hilary aka LadyElton

********************

Check out my blog

"Looking like a true survivor..."
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#722979 - 06/20/03 06:17 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Bernard,

Sorry, I missed your post before I sent mine to TomK. I'll probably regret sending that one too. But, I won't delete it. I just hate losing my temper over obnoxious posters.

Dwain,
You're wonderful.

Derick,
Thank you.

I think some of the posts in this thread were wonderful. But, I'm weird. Just because I'm not ashamed of my life and feel free to question doesn't make me a bad mom. Actually, I think it makes me a better mom. But, apparently this thread made a lot of people uncomfortable. And I do feel bad for that. Therefore, I'm not going to talk about it anymore.
Back to pianos........
Politics, anyone?
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722980 - 06/20/03 06:19 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Bernard:

Don't call names. Our opinions may differ. Let's discuss from there. By calling names YOU ARE the one setting agendas.

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#722981 - 06/20/03 06:19 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Derick:
 Quote:
Typically, men do not seek help on highly personal issues.
More's the pity.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722982 - 06/20/03 06:24 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
I'm not convinced that there is a "gay gene". I do think, and have no scientific basis for, that some people are more pre-disposed that way.

Yet some people are more pre-disposed to be alcoholics, or substance abusers. Some people are pre-disposed to certain mental disorders. Some people are pre-disposed to have higher sexual drives. Folks are pre-disposed to be, or do, or engage in, a lot of different behavior.

That doesn't mean that they must.[/b]
You're right Jolly. I don't know for a fact that homosexuality is genetic, or if some are merely "predisposed" to be so. But in a sense, the difference is insignificant. And you're right, just whether genetic or otherwise, just because one is predisposed to be or act a certain way doesn't mean that they must act in that manner. However, in most cases they will. And that goes to the concept of "if God says it's wrong to act this way, why did he make me (genetically or dispositionally)this way? No loving God would do such a cruel thing! It's not logical! It's not fair!

The "it's not fair" argument seems to really be the underlying argument of whether homosexuality is genetic, or whether it is a sin. Surely it is a cruel God that sets us up to fail, is it not? Who would believe in a God defined in such a manner?

And yet that's exactly where we all find ouselves, straight, gay, rich, or poor. That's my real point. As a result of our state of separation from God via original sin/human imperfection, we are set up to fail. By God's definition, I fail every time my own biology makes me drool over some beautiful woman who is not my wife, to no less a degree than when a gay man engages in homosexual acts.

Humans, for purposes of civilized earthly society, must distinguish gradations of wrongdoing: killing a person is far worse in reasonable societal standards than stealing a loaf of bread. But God's criteria is not based on percentages, it's a very strict pass/fail system, and there's no grading on a curve. And based strictly on our own actions and thoughts, none of us measure up. Setting up constructs where someone else's sin is worse in God's eyes than our own only points to the sin of pride in our own selves. That's the basis for my thoughts on the issue.

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#722983 - 06/20/03 06:26 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by Pegy: TomK,
Just who do you think you are? God? Who are you to judge? You're posts were the most arrogant and obnoxious posts I've ever read. Do you enjoy being so righteous? I think you should "get a life" so to speak. I already have one and it's pretty d*** complicated.[/b]
Dear Peggy,

You are the one that said your kid had problems--not me. You want to post here. Fine. Take the critiques you get here as you should. I'm not God, I'm not anything--you posted here for comment, and you got it, girlfriend. See the problem.

GRASP THAT POINT.

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#722984 - 06/20/03 06:30 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
TomK,
What exactly did I do to you that makes you so... so... I don't even know what to call it.
And I'm not your Girlfriend.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722985 - 06/20/03 06:37 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Sorry about the "girlfriend".

And the answer is: Nothing. I like your comments about Steinways. I see too many well meaning parents screw up too many really nice kids. I see too many kids that want security and love that get excuses and toys and weekends.

I don't like it. You touched a sore point with me. Nothing personal. sorry.

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#722986 - 06/20/03 06:42 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
I see too many well meaning parents screw up too many really nice kids. I see too many kids that want security and love that get excuses and toys and weekends.

I don't like it.
TomK,
I feel the same way.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722987 - 06/20/03 06:52 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
A lot of kids question everything in their teen years, including their sexuality. If it were my child I would encourage the heterosexual traits of life, and gently steer him towards them. If the child is on the fence, perhaps it will help him fall on that side.[/b]
First of all, there is only ONE trait that makes one homosexual, and it's the defining one. Anything else is immaterial. And I don't think there IS a fence. Most research has shown sexual proclivity to be more of a continuum than a binary switch. And if the recall of my education serves me correctly, the distribution within the continuum is pretty close to the standard deviation bell curve.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#722988 - 06/20/03 06:53 PM Re: The Disney Smear
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
Wow! I don't thing I have ever read such an in-your-face mean spirited personal attack on someone seeking advice and understanding as what TomK has written in several posts in this thread.

A Catholic thing, Tom? Not any Catholic I know.

Something in your life has obviously made you this way. I feel very sorry for you.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#722989 - 06/20/03 06:59 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Dear John Andrew:

Sorry, I deleted the post.

Anyway, the grammar was off. Anyway I didn't say anything more of less than I said before. Don't like what I said John Andrew? Fine. Do more than:

"Duuud, I done like it!!!"

Well, I feel sorry for you too, Dude.

Day late dollar short.

Got something to actually say, John Andrew?

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#722990 - 06/20/03 07:02 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Dwain,
 Quote:
And yet that's exactly where we all find ouselves, straight, gay, rich, or poor. That's my real point. As a result of our state of separation from God via original sin/human imperfection, we are set up to fail. By God's definition, I fail every time my own biology makes me drool over some beautiful woman who is not my wife, to no less a degree than when a gay man engages in homosexual acts.
We do not all find ourselves there! I for one do not believe in original sin and do not believe in the same type of God as yourself.

Your answer seems to be that homosexuals must accept a celibate life. But that can only apply to homosexuals who hold the same religious beliefs that you do and therefore cannot be accepted as the law of the land. All the homosexuals I have known have either left their church or remain and make apologies for it because they so clearly see the hypocrisy.

TomK, people from the North East I call North Easterners, people who love audio equipment I call audiophiles, people intolerantly devoted to their beliefs or opinions in the face of reason I call bigots; I don't consider that name-calling, but I'll consider your request.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722991 - 06/20/03 07:07 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: TomK, people from the North East I call North Easterners, people who love audio equipment I call audiophiles, people intolerantly devoted to their beliefs or opinions in the face of reason I call bigots; I don't consider that name-calling, but I'll consider your request.
[/b]
Bigot.

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#722992 - 06/20/03 07:10 PM Re: The Disney Smear
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ENJOYABLE!!!!!!!!
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#722993 - 06/20/03 07:13 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Show me where I've been intolerant. Go ahead, show me. I am a very tolerant person, the one thing I have very little tolerance for is intolerance, and that is something you've no end of it seems.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#722994 - 06/20/03 07:46 PM Re: The Disney Smear
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I think we all should be celibate and teach that to our children and they to their's.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#722995 - 06/20/03 07:46 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Wow, Tom, you can't get along with anyone, can you? And picking fights with all the nicest people!
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#722996 - 06/20/03 08:12 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
I think we all should be celibate and teach that to our children and they to their's.[/b]
That reminds me, Peggy did you see my response to your question on page 4?

(in a desperate but seemingly futile attempt to steer the thread away from personal attacks)
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#722997 - 06/20/03 08:14 PM Re: The Disney Smear
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Oscar:
It strikes me as the pinnacle of moral arrogance to presume that one's interpretation of texts that have been sloppily copied, poorly translated and deliberately altered over the course of millenia is somehow infallible.[/b]
I am saddened that you feel the need to hide. There are other homosexuals on this board who are open about it and they do not receive any condemnation for it. There is one woman who I can think of in particular. But that is not why I am replying. I am replying to your baseless assertion that the Bible has been sloppily copied, poorly translated and deliberately altered. You will please cite examples of your assertions.
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#722998 - 06/20/03 08:18 PM Re: The Disney Smear
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Bernard:
All the homosexuals I have known have either left their church or remain and make apologies for it because they so clearly see the hypocrisy.[/b]
My wife's church is the United Church of Christ. She grew up in that church, a pretty, picture-postcard of a church out in the country.

Sometime (we lived out of state at the time), the UCC accepted homosexuals as ministers. A few gays/lesbians showed up, and eventually the minister retired (or left, I donno). There was an intense lobby, and the new minister was selected, a lesbian.

The church became extremely popular for the gays/lesbians that would make the effort to drive all the way out to this little country church.

The focus of the church changed (sermons, activities, youth programs), the families that had supported the church for generations were forced out, by overwhelming numbers, and the feeling of being not welcome.

That church is going gangbusters now! It is a majority gay church, and lots of money has been given to the church for upkeep: paved parking lot, new house for the minister, etc. The congregation that started the church generations ago, have for the most part, left. And yes, from what I've heard from the In-laws neighbors and friends, there is very strong resentment from ex-members: they feel like they opened their arms to let in "the oppressed," and then had their kindness and religious-based tolerance thrown in their faces as they were usurped by a gay agenda.
====================

I don't buy this same old crap about how the understanding of the issues are always one-sided, how the gay community is innocent and must be assertive (in your face), how the straights are simply too stupid, or incapable of actually understanding scripture (or interpreting scripture "correctly"), or don't know enough about genetics or predisposition, or anything else that goes against what the gay community or gay person DEMANDS to hear.

Peggy's situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Gay marriages in Canada, and the effect in the U.S.?? This concern over "how I love" and "whom I love" and money and rights and "if I want to" and if a divorce, taxes, me, me, me. . .

WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS!!??[/b]

I mention this insignificant peripheral inconsequential sub-topic (sarcasm) based on the following:

A good friend of mine was (she moved years ago) a lesbian. A good person, a kind person, and a very smart lawyer. She had a child from her marriage, a boy about 7-8 years old. Her "Significant Other" was the male of the household. That kid was one of the most messed-up kids I knew: he would bounce off the walls dressed by his lesbian parents like a flower-child complete with pony tail, totally out of control, with chronic problems at school, and incapable of playing with neighborhood friends without a disaster occuring (he'd usually pound them). There was no male in the house, but a female/lesbian that acted like a male. My friend did not know what to do: her relationship with her S.O. was great, but adding her child into this mix was a complete unknown.

So the issue is not nearly as neatly resolved as a "feel good" depending on scripture, or liberalism, or PC, or making marriage legal. We will not know the societal effects until at least a couple of generations from now, regardless of how much "proof" can be generated from the bible-toters, the left, the PCs, or the psychobabble researcher's opinions. In many cases, kids will be part of the equation. Gay kids committing suicide now? How about kids brought up in a gay household -- what will be done if there is an upswell in suicide rates? Then, who will care?? Will gays pass a law that their marriage cannot include children, would they have the guts to do this, would any legislature?

I doubt it. In this hedonistic culture, these kids would be of little societal concern in the pecking order of issues. Let's hope that gay households become enough of a norm, that the kids will not go through childhool wearing a scarlet letter, as those from divorced homes did decades ago.

If gay marriages become a reality in the near future (as I hope some form of legal protection does happen in the near future), how will this affect children raised in a gay home? Should gay men or lesbians be allowed to adopt? Should only lesbians be allowed to adopt, as gay men would be unsuitable? Why would gay men be unsuitable? Who would decide (government agency. . . ), and based on what criteria??

Apologies for posting like a raving lunatic, but how else should a lunatic post? The discussion is interesting, but yes, I'm starting to tremble over the scripture lessons, the "we call God Godde" nonsense, and the endless age-old debate of whether a camel's humps get caught going through the eye of a needle.

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#722999 - 06/20/03 08:30 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
 Quote:
What seems unfortunate is that nearly all of the posts on this subject are from the point of view of people who are unabashedly heterosexual.
Nearly. It is no secret to those who have been around here long enough that my story is not so clear cut. I have know many homosexuals (and been a lover to some) and obviously I've know many heterosexuals (and again, been a lover). My experience has shown me that the sexual sprectrum is wide. I have not met a 'typical' homosexual nor a 'typical' heterosexual, everyone I've known was a unique ad-mixture of preferences and quirks. I'm sure there are broad categories, but in the end it is our unique personal experience that makes us an individual. And the number of different types of experience in the womb and early childhold makes for quite a diversity of sexual identifications and preferences, it seems to me.

What I want to say is, that owing to my messed up childhood (among other things I was raised very stict catholic), I spent 6 years in psychotherapy and 14 years in psychoanalysis devling into myself. [Edited: sentence deleted; because of it's intimate nature I feel uncomfortable leaving it on the web!] This is an expensive proposition, and difficult, painful and it is clear and plain to me that 1) I was not 'typical'; 2) homosexuals have every right to reign indignant at those who propose they undergo a 'change'; 3) those who say it is a choice don't know **** , period; 4) when religion is used to attack the very essence of a person's being it isn't worth a ****-hole-in-the-snow; 5) life is complex; 6) everyone needs to decide for themselves what they really want out of life and to pursue it and thank G*d this is written into our Constitution.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#723000 - 06/20/03 08:32 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Actually, it was pretty interesting rant ;\)
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#723001 - 06/20/03 08:34 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: Show me where I've been intolerant. Go ahead, show me. I am a very tolerant person, the one thing I have very little tolerance for is intolerance, and that is something you've no end of it seems.
[/b]
"You? The Bible? Well we know all about the Bible..."

"TomK, I sincerely hope I am wrong about children getting their values from their parents for your children's sake if you have any..."


"Obviously, mercy is not one of your "values",..."

"I have very little tolerance for is intolerance, and that is something you've no end of it seems."

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#723002 - 06/20/03 08:37 PM Re: The Disney Smear
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by Ariel: Wow, Tom, you can't get along with anyone, can you? And picking fights with all the nicest people! [/b]
Gloves off, OK pique?

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#723003 - 06/20/03 08:37 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
I've been called a fascist. Doesn't make me one.

If I remember correctly, TomK was the one who didn't let his children attend a school, because blacks and other minorities weren't admitted. Doesn't sound like a bigot.

Not taking up for what TomK said, (he's a big boy, and can defend himself), but lots of folks like to chunk the biggest stink bomb they can, when they are overly wound up.

Rebutt his statements, but you need to do better than that.
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#723004 - 06/20/03 08:37 PM Re: The Disney Smear
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
rvaga,
 Quote:
WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS!!??
I mention this insignificant peripheral inconsequential sub-topic (sarcasm) based on the following:
Exactly! For that one example you write about I can give 10, nay 100, examples of kids that are severly messed up by their heterosexual parents!

Isn't it just amazing that all homosexuals are the results of heterosexual relations.
_________________________
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