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#723756 - 11/18/04 09:54 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Moonbat:
 Quote:

no evidence pointing to either a genetical or psychological disorder
There is evidence suggesting a partial genetic basis. I gave you some, which for some you reason you choose to ignore. [/b]
I'm sorry, I think I read every post, and I saw none offering evidence that it is genetical. I read an article the other day about how the scientific community recently had a large investigation about it, met in san fransisco, and officially said there is still no evidence for a genetical rationale.

The genetical disorder theory is just as valid as a psychological disorder theory. In fact, it was classified as a psychological disorder for the longest time until it was declassified because of political pressure.

I dont understand why people have a problem with my support of the psychological theory. I dont have a problem with your genetical theory, if you have that stance. I would appreciate the same mutual respect. I would like to talk about the selective discrimination aspect, but since no one will address that, I'll just let it slide off the table for now...
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723757 - 11/18/04 10:46 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
Nunatax, how many times do I have to tell you? I just dont see a homosexual baby coming from heterosexual parents. You have all this jargon about recessive alleles in dealing with skin color and eye color. THAT DOESN'T MATTER! No one has any evidence to prove that homosexuality is genetic
[/b]

You have this fixed idea that I'm trying to prove that it is genetical. I'm not.


 Quote:
, thus talking about it's behavior as a gene is pointless! I simply dont see it, thats my opinion, I think it is like the black/white parent kid thing, in which it is impossible for certain traits to magically appear!
[/b]

What kind of nursery class science is that???????

The blue eyes "magically appear" and eyecolor is an inheritable, genetical trait. Conclusion : a genetical trait CAN "magically appear" :rolleyes:
Is homosexuality therefore genetical without a doubt? NO, AND I NEVER SAID SO, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO PROVE THAT IT IS GENETICAL EITHER! WHEN WILL YOU GET THAT???

 Quote:
Eye color uses a completely different mechanism in the behavior of genes, and in my opinion homosexuality isn't EVEN a gene, thus this is a pointless issue.There is no evidence on either side so drop it, it is my opinion, and when you show me that it is genetical
[/b]

For the 1000th time [/b] :
I'm NOT trying to show you that it IS genetic. I'm trying to point out to you whether it COULD[/b] be genetic.
You dismissed that the possibility that it is genetic with that statement. I correctly pointed out to you that you cannot draw that conclusion from that statement[/b]. That is ALL I am saying!

Repeat after me :
Nunatax is NOT trying prove that homosexuality is genetically determined.
Nunatax is NOT trying to refute that it is psychological.
Nunatax is just trying to point out to me that I CANNOT draw the conclusion that it is impossible that it is genetically determined, from that statement that I made.[/b]

Now get that short-term memory of yours fixed, will ya?

 Quote:
And why wont you just say your stance on homo marriage instead of making me go and find it. You used 6 sentences to talk about how you had one, but it would of taken you one sentence to just say what IT is. [/b]
Here it is : http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/10/6281/12.html

In short :
Cut the BS and allow it.

Happy now?
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723758 - 11/18/04 12:13 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
Why are you freaking out?

I never said that you were trying to prove its genetic, calm down sunshine...look over those quotes of me that you just posted, I never said you said it was genetic.

I'm simply saying that since no one knows whether its genetic or not, I say that I dont think it could be, because ONE of my reasons is that I dont see two hetero parents having a homo baby.

Calm down.

You were showing me all this genetic info about how it COULD happen...and yes it COULD happen, but it also COULD NOT happen, since its 50/50 right now, and I say it doesn't happen.

There's nothing incorrect about my "magically appear" statement. A black kid wont magically appear from white parents (unless the mother is hookin up with stainweggie), and in the same sense, I dont see a homo baby magically appearing from hetero parents.

You said:
"For the 1000th time :
I'm NOT trying to show you that it IS genetic. I'm trying to point out to you whether it COULD be genetic.
You dismissed that the possibility that it is genetic with that statement. I correctly pointed out to you that you cannot draw that conclusion from that statement. That is ALL I am saying!"[/b]

Calm down! I never said that you were trying to show me it was genetic, you were arguing on the assumption that if it was genetic, then your comparisons are valid...and since its an easy 50/50 spilt, you are wasting your time since its a flip of the coin, there's no reason to wet your pants trying to prove one way, since its unknown.


And I assume since you want to cut the BS you want to allow incest marriage and polygamist marriage? Shoot, will you support me if I want to get "married" to my best friend just to get the tax breaks? In come the 100 person weddings, the mom and dad also being brother and sister, howd that happen? And the college roommates getting married for tax breaks since they live in an apt and want to save money. Why not walk around naked? Why not have sex in public? Well since we are doing that, we might as well have a hetero-male bathroom, a hetero-female bathroom, a homosexual-male & homosexual-female bathroom combined. What else is there that "doesn't hurt anyone"? Hmmm..

OH THATS RIGHT! We opened a box full of "freedoms" that will lead our country right down to chaos.

There has to be a rule set somewhere, might as well be with homo marriage!
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723759 - 11/18/04 12:52 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
There's nothing incorrect about my "magically appear" statement. A black kid wont magically appear from white parents (unless the mother is hookin up with stainweggie), and in the same sense, I dont see a homo baby magically appearing from hetero parents.[/b]
Tell me, what is YOUR explanation for the "magical appearance" of blue eyes from two brown-eyed parents???

If blue eyes can "magically appear", then why wouldn't "homo babies" be able to "magically appear"???

There are FACTS here, I thought you liked facts??? There are FACTS, PROVEN FACTS that state that traits CAN "magically appear" and yet you keep claiming that you don't see how a homo baby could "magically appear"??? That makes your claim to be OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS! Don't you see that??????

Somebody, PLEASE, hammer some common sense into this guy's head. I'm practically out of energy \:\(
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723760 - 11/18/04 01:02 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
IF homosexuality is genetic, (the 'if' already lowers the end probability percentage), then it is STILL a 50/50 shot:

I've said that this whole time, if homosexuality is genetic, then it could behave similarly to skin color, or it could behave like eye color...HENCE it is a 50/50 shot and you and I have the SAME percentage at 'being correct'.

It's 50/50, and I believe one side...what are you trying to prove? I'll pick heads, you can have tails.

Next I'm sure you're gonna tell me that a quarter always lands on tails, eh?
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723761 - 11/18/04 01:45 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
Foolish boy. Your entire argument loses ALL of its value when you realise the following :
A man and a woman who both have brown eyes can have a child with blue eyes.
[/b]
Nunatax,

you seem to know what you are talking about regarding genetics. Although this is something like a non sequitur, I'm glad to read this information. My wife and I were unable to conceive and finally did so by artificial insemination using donor sperm. My wife's eyes and my eyes are both hazel-brown. Our oldest (naturally conceived) daughter has dark brown eyes. Our twins (yes, we were also on fertility meds) have beautiful blue eyes. We chose not to tell them of the process of their birth. I've been wondering if some day in science class they'd read something and come to the realization that I am not the biological father. You have put to rest that concern. Thanks!

Now, I hope you two are almost done!
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#723762 - 11/18/04 01:50 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
I'm gonna let you in on a secret that is likely to turn your world upside down... :rolleyes:

By stating that homosexuality cannot be inherited like skin color, you actually imply that if it is genetic, it HAS to be inherited like eye color... (There goes your 50/50 chance :rolleyes: ) THAT should be your conclusion, NOT that it CAN'T be genetic.
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723763 - 11/18/04 02:01 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
Foolish boy. Your entire argument loses ALL of its value when you realise the following :
A man and a woman who both have brown eyes can have a child with blue eyes.
[/b]
Nunatax,

you seem to know what you are talking about regarding genetics. Although this is something like a non sequitur, I'm glad to read this information. My wife and I were unable to conceive and finally did so by artificial insemination using donor sperm. My wife's eyes and my eyes are both hazel-brown. Our oldest (naturally conceived) daughter has dark brown eyes. Our twins (yes, we were also on fertility meds) have beautiful blue eyes. We chose not to tell them of the process of their birth. I've been wondering if some day in science class they'd read something and come to the realization that I am not the biological father. You have put to rest that concern. Thanks!

Now, I hope you two are almost done! [/b]
Kincaid,

You are most welcome!
I'm glad that what I wrote here was able to ease your mind \:\)
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723764 - 11/18/04 02:05 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
I'm gonna let you in on a secret that is likely to turn your world upside down... :rolleyes:

By stating that homosexuality cannot be inherited like skin color, you actually imply that if it is genetic, it HAS to be inherited like eye color... (There goes your 50/50 chance :rolleyes: ) THAT should be your conclusion, NOT that it CAN'T be genetic. [/b]
I never implied that it cannot be inherited like skin color, check again.

Gotta go home now...see ya tomorrow, bright and early! ;\)
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723765 - 11/18/04 04:09 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
Hm, perhaps I'm getting a bit sleepy here...


OK, forget that one, I was too quick... What a lack of energy can do to a man... Or perhaps it's sea sickness, I sometimes get that on a carousel...

Now, to get back to your reply...

 Quote:
IF homosexuality is genetic, (the 'if' already lowers the end probability percentage), then it is STILL a 50/50 shot:
[/b]

That's not what this is about and you know it. At this point, I'm absolutely NOT interested which mechanism it will inherit by IF it is genetic. That's a discussion for later.
The question is : CAN it be genetic?
THIS is the question BECAUSE THAT is what YOU are DISMISSING...
To support that dismissal you used that almost pianoworld famous quote of yours.

You went on :
 Quote:
I've said that this whole time, if homosexuality is genetic, then it could behave similarly to skin color, or it could behave like eye color...
[/b]

Let me finish your quote for you :
...or it could behave like eye color, and then it is perfectly POSSIBLE for a heterosexual couple to have a homosexual child without it just "magically appearing". So I was wrong in DISMISSING the POSSIBILITY that it can be genetic with that foolish statement I made.

And that's what you did, you dismissed the possibility, I can't explain it any better than this. Don't get me wrong, you MIGHT be ABLE to dismiss it, only NOT with that statement.
It is simply scientifically incorrect.

Then you said :
 Quote:
It's 50/50, and I believe one side...what are you trying to prove? I'll pick heads, you can have tails.

Next I'm sure you're gonna tell me that a quarter always lands on tails, eh?
[/b]

Is that the way you do science??? Flipping coins??? Count me out of that one!!!

You can be of the opinion that it is psychological, many people are, at this point, I don't care. What I DO care about at this point, is the fact that you dismiss the possibility that it is genetic with an unscientific statement. Doing that is just plain wrong. If you still don't realise that then there is nothing more I can do...

To be honest, I'm really getting tired of your zigzagging...
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723766 - 11/18/04 04:10 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
BTW, you might not see me back until tuesday...
(Well, in fact you might not see me back here at all, that will entirely depend on your next post...)
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723767 - 11/19/04 05:58 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
 Quote:
IF homosexuality is genetic, (the 'if' already lowers the end probability percentage), then it is STILL a 50/50 shot:
[/b]

That's not what this is about and you know it. At this point, I'm absolutely NOT interested which mechanism it will inherit by IF it is genetic. That's a discussion for later.
The question is : CAN it be genetic?
THIS is the question BECAUSE THAT is what YOU are DISMISSING...
To support that dismissal you used that almost pianoworld famous quote of yours.
[/b]
You have already apologized a number of times to me for false statements.

I'd rather not call you out on it again, but look...I have said it before, I KNOW there is a chance that it is genetic, I have said that this whole time!

BUT, since it's a 50/50 shot, I just personally dont think it is.

It's the same way as how I am a Christian. I acknowledge the fact that yes, I could be wrong about believing in God...but I personally dont think I am.

I believe 100% in Christ.
I believe 100% that homosexuality is not genetic.

I know I *could* be wrong, but since its a 50/50 shot for either example, you cant get mad at me for wholeheartedly believing in one side of the issue.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723768 - 11/20/04 04:16 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
Hmm, I see another opportunity here to make you see...

 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
I believe 100% in Christ.
I believe 100% that homosexuality is not genetic.
[/b]
You CAN believe for 100% that homosexuality is not genetic. At this point I really couldn't care less. However, you CANNOT back up that belief by making that statement because it DOES NOT EXCLUDE AT ALL that it is genetic.

Important part coming up! Please do not ignore!
If you are arguing with someone who knows even less about genetics than you do (if such a thing is possible) and he or she has not thought about whether it could be genetic or not, then they will believe that it is impossible that it is genetic if you give them that statement. I cannot let you do that, because that statement DOES NOT make it impossible that it is genetic. You withhold valuable information, information that is VERY important in order to be able to come to an objective and scientifically valid conclusion. Therefore it is misleading to the highest degree. (You should try a career as politician :rolleyes: )
The conclusion should be that you cannot use that statement in order to throw light on whether homosexuality is genetic or not.

I also think that you should finally show that you have "studied genetics". You have accused me of using "all that jargon" while in fact all the jargon I used was taught to me in secondary school. If you are not familiar with these words then it is safe for me to say that you know nothing about genetics.
I'll make it easy for you to prove that you have some knowledge of genetics: I have made a little exercise for you to make, and even if you were only taught genetics in secondary school, you should be able to solve it easily...
To keep it familiar, I'll be using the trait eye color...

Imagine three alleles coding for eye color. Blue, brown and grey. (There are more but let's assume that these are the only ones occuring in a certain population.) Blue is completely recessive. Brown and grey are co-dominant, a mix of them both gives light brown eyes.
Now, imagine the following couple :
The man has grey eyes.
The woman has brown eyes.

Knowing that both are heterozygote for the trait eye color :
1. What are all the possible eye colors that their kids could have?
2. Calculate the percentage of "magical appearances".


My crystal ball tells me you are going to try to dodge this question :rolleyes:
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723769 - 11/20/04 12:47 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

BUT, since it's a 50/50 shot, I just personally dont think it is.
Saying you think a genetic basis for homosexuality is 50/50 and then saying you don't think there is a genetic basis for homosexuality is a complete and utter contradiction.

By saying you don't think that homosexuality is genetic you are by definition saying you think the odds of it being genetic are lower than the odds of it not being genetic.

You should really sit down and think about your reasoning process.
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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#723770 - 11/20/04 10:32 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
For both nunatax and moonbat,

Have you read anything I said, especially recently? How many times do I have to say it in order for you to understand?

Right now, since there is no proof on either side, its a 50/50 shot. I personally don't believe it is genetic, not because its a 50/50 shot, but because *if* it was genetic, I see it as too important, critical, and identifiable a gene to be controlled by the same mechanism that controls say, eye color. I see it being controlled by the same type of mechanism that controls the behavior of say, skin color.

Again, the fact that I 'just don't see it happening' is only one of many reasons why I think its a psychological disorder as compared to the alternative belief that it is a genetic disorder.

This is the SAME way as how I believe in God. There is no evidence (that is universally supported) that God exists, yet I believe it is. In the end its a 50/50 shot with that too, but I am wrong to believe one side of the coin?

You cant hold double standards as I'm sure you, nunatax and moonbat, have many beliefs in unsubstantiated topics that you simply believe one side of. That would be hypocritical, as would your selective discrimination that you have of other segments of the population that you wont let marry, nunatax. And since you dodged talking about that topic, I will return the favor and dodge your genetics quiz. I didn't major in genetics, but I have studied it and debated it for years. And its also 1:30am, and I don't feel like entertaining your hypocritical quizzing of some topics when you fail to engage in certain discussions that I want you to put your input in. Then again, you are used to selectively entertaining certain notions while ignoring others. After all, you don't even HAVE an opinion about the topic of psychological or genetical disfunction as the origin of homosexuality.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723771 - 11/21/04 12:57 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
STOP KICKING THIS THREAD UP!

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#723772 - 11/21/04 04:24 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
NAK, your wish is about to come true ;\)
(BTW, no one is forcing you to read this...)

 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
Have you read anything I said, especially recently? How many times do I have to say it in order for you to understand?
[/b]

Yes I have, I have also told you that I didn't care (at this point), because it didn't matter (at this point). Your statement is simply misleading and incorrect.

 Quote:
but because *if* it was genetic, I see it as too important, critical, and identifiable a gene to be controlled by the same mechanism that controls say, eye color. I see it being controlled by the same type of mechanism that controls the behavior of say, skin color.
[/b]

Right... You didn't major in genetics, you seem to understand nothing of the most basic jargon, you dodge a simple exercise and yet you have no problem making statements like that...
Too important, critical and identifiable a gene to be controlled by a mechanism like that of eye color? Man, your statements are becoming more ridiculous everyday... I have no further comments :rolleyes:

It will probably come as a surprise to you when I say that the two mechanisms that I explained to you here are just the tip of the iceberg...


 Quote:
Again, the fact that I 'just don't see it happening' is only one of many reasons why I think its a psychological disorder as compared to the alternative belief that it is a genetic disorder.
[/b]

Like I have told YOU numerous times : AT THIS POINT I DON'T CARE WHY[/b] YOU THINK IT IS PSYCHOLOGICAL!!! AT THIS POINT I ALSO DON'T CARE THAT[/b] YOU THINK IT IS PSYCHOLOGICAL!!!

What I care about is that you back up that belief with that statement and that is MISLEADING, WRONG, RIDICULOUS, BAD SCIENCE, etc... You must be utterly foolish if you don't see that...

 Quote:
This is the SAME way as how I believe in God. There is no evidence (that is universally supported) that God exists, yet I believe it is. In the end its a 50/50 shot with that too, but I am wrong to believe one side of the coin?[/b]
You are if you don't know anything about the other side of the coin... And you obviously don't... :rolleyes:

 Quote:
You cant hold double standards as I'm sure you, nunatax and moonbat, have many beliefs in unsubstantiated topics that you simply believe one side of. That would be hypocritical, as would your selective discrimination that you have of other segments of the population that you wont let marry, nunatax. And since you dodged talking about that topic, I will return the favor and dodge your genetics quiz.
[/b]

Incest couples have a high probability of having children with handicaps >>> unethical >>> no marriage...
Polygamists >>> they can always marry two by two >>> no special arrangements necessary ;\)

Now it's only fair that you answer my "quiz"...
(Uh oh, my crystal ball tells me you are going to come up with yet another farfetched argument in order to dodge it... \:\( )

And by the way, your pandora's box still hasn't opened here in Belgium... So far the consequences of allowing gay marriage have only been positive. Feel free to keep an eye on Belgium to see whether eventually this issue causes utter chaos and death here... ;\)

 Quote:
psychological or genetical disfunction as the origin of homosexuality. [/b]
Ah, so now you're also sure that if it is genetic, it is a disfunction without a doubt???
You really need to expand your thinking urgently...

If I don't get a decent answer (read : if you don't show you can use your brains and your next post turns out to be yet another fabulous dodge) then I'm giving up...
I'm sick and tired of your ignorance. However, I want you to know that if I see you trying to mislead anyone with another one of your ridiculous statements, then I'll be there... ;\)
(With which I do not[/b] mean that I think most of the people here are unable to see through foolish statements like that themselves...)
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#723773 - 11/21/04 06:01 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

Right now, since there is no proof on either side, its a 50/50 shot. I personally don't believe it is genetic, not because its a 50/50 shot, but because *if* it was genetic, I see it as too important, critical, and identifiable a gene to be controlled by the same mechanism that controls say, eye color. I see it being controlled by the same type of mechanism that controls the behavior of say, skin color.
You don't understand the words you are using, there is not "proof" in science only evidence and based on the evidence the odds are stacked in favour of atleast a partial genetic basis.

Furthermore you seem to be labouring under the impression it is an "either or" scenario simpy genetic or psychological, it's not, there are many other possible hypothesis for example the hormonal environment in the womb.

Finally IF your argument regarding genetics were valid then the probability of a genetic cause would definitively fall below 50%. IF given the nature of genetics and given the pattern of inheretance displayed by the homosexual phenotype it were impossible for homosexuality to have genetic roots then by definition the probability would be zero, if instead homosexuality was unlikely to have genetic roots again the probability falls below 50%.

You cannot claim the odds are 50/50 on a genetic basis and then say but you don't think it has a genetic basis without contradicting yourself.
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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#723774 - 11/21/04 09:38 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1757
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
This thread, which I have skimmed (why read carefully about an argument that is irrelevant to the objective in mind? Homosexual marriage), was supposed to be about terrorists and GWB.

But it isn't now. OK, so be it.

People who are going to stand in the way of homosexual marriage DO NOT CARE why someone is homosexual.

People who DISBELIEVE in the claims of ANY theory that postulates as all but proved that one species can EVOLVE from another, don't care about genetics, and in fact a few of us think that genetics offers less proof for natural selection as a mechanism than more evidence for design and in any case is irrelevant to a discussion of evolution, and NO I'm not interested in debating Darwinism here or anywhere else. The fact is that I do not have to believe it and I have a right to dissent and claim that it is nothing but a bad theory used for deliberate reasons (from its very inception) to foist a view of life that cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

To quote the Emperor, "you are passionate Moonbat, but you do not persuade."

As to homosexual marriage it is analogous to giving a blind man (or woman) a driver's license. There are people who society deems unworthy of certain key responsibilities. Marriage has a specific definition, always has and always will, and homosexuals are disqualified. Now a suitable political settlement can be reached whereby society offers a limited kind of union to homosexual couples. But if they are not willing to be reasonable, then they may end up getting nothing.
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#723775 - 11/21/04 09:57 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by David Burton:
To quote the Emperor, "you are passionate Moonbat, but you do not persuade."[/b]
Great movie. \:D Anyone wanna guess which movie that quote is from?

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#723776 - 11/22/04 04:27 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Amadeus.
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#723777 - 11/22/04 05:24 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
Incest couples have a high probability of having children with handicaps >>> unethical >>> no marriage...
Polygamists >>> they can always marry two by two >>> no special arrangements necessary ;\)

Now it's only fair that you answer my "quiz"...
(Uh oh, my crystal ball tells me you are going to come up with yet another farfetched argument in order to dodge it... \:\( )

And by the way, your pandora's box still hasn't opened here in Belgium... So far the consequences of allowing gay marriage have only been positive. Feel free to keep an eye on Belgium to see whether eventually this issue causes utter chaos and death here... ;\)

 Quote:
psychological or genetical disfunction as the origin of homosexuality. [/b]
Ah, so now you're also sure that if it is genetic, it is a disfunction without a doubt???
You really need to expand your thinking urgently...

If I don't get a decent answer (read : if you don't show you can use your brains and your next post turns out to be yet another fabulous dodge) then I'm giving up...
I'm sick and tired of your ignorance. However, I want you to know that if I see you trying to mislead anyone with another one of your ridiculous statements, then I'll be there... ;\)
(With which I do not[/b] mean that I think most of the people here are unable to see through foolish statements like that themselves...) [/b]
I told you before that I will answer your quiz as soon as you answer my selective discrimination question. Fair is fair and I asked you first, we need to stay in order here! ;\)

Incest marriage doesn't necessarily mean having kids, it just means marriage, are you going to allow that or not? Fair is fair!

Your polygamous answer? Two by two? What are you talking about...will you or will you not let them marry as many people as they want? Fair is far, nunatax.

You didn't answer any of the other "rights" that a small segment of the population wants that "dont hurt anyone." Please address that.

and when you said:

 Quote:

Ah, so now you're also sure that if it is genetic, it is a disfunction without a doubt???
You really need to expand your thinking urgently...[/b]
It's obviously a disfuction, disorder, whatever you want to call it. A disorder isn't always "bad", but being a homosexual is certainly without a doubt a disorder. If you are blind, you have a sight disorder. If you are retarded you have a mental disorder. If you are attracted to the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what humans are supposed to be attracted to, its a disorder.

So answer my questions that I posed first before I entertain your little quiz. Fair is fair.
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#723778 - 11/22/04 05:29 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
NAK, you dont like E.T. but you thought Amadeus was a "GREAT MOVIE"???

I guess you are entitled to your opinion... ;\)
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#723779 - 11/22/04 05:30 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

To quote the Emperor, "you are passionate Moonbat, but you do not persuade."
Fair enough, though i would add that in order to persuade one has to have an audience who is persuadable.
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#723780 - 11/22/04 07:11 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Posted by the 89th key:
 Quote:
It's obviously a disfuction, disorder, whatever you want to call it. A disorder isn't always "bad", but being a homosexual is certainly without a doubt a disorder.[/b]
Even though you've been told(by at least me and I should think at least one or more here)that the American Psychiatric Association long ago DROPPED THAT DESIGNATION.

So why you persist in holding on to that archaic viewpoint is beyond us!

Unless of course, you suffer some kind of newly classified "judgement" disorder. :rolleyes:

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#723781 - 11/22/04 07:43 PM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
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#723782 - 11/23/04 05:56 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by reblder:
Posted by the 89th key:
 Quote:
It's obviously a disfuction, disorder, whatever you want to call it. A disorder isn't always "bad", but being a homosexual is certainly without a doubt a disorder.[/b]
Even though you've been told(by at least me and I should think at least one or more here)that the American Psychiatric Association long ago DROPPED THAT DESIGNATION.

So why you persist in holding on to that archaic viewpoint is beyond us!

Unless of course, you suffer some kind of newly classified "judgement" disorder. :rolleyes: [/b]
The APA dropped it as a 'psychological disorder' in the late 70's or sometime, but only from political pressure. Here's another nugget of info: There still is no evidence showing it is genetic, which is still on the record to this day as scientific organizations keep coming out and stating that they still have no evidence that it is genetic.

And the whole point of the my post, that you were just replying to, was the fact that someone was saying calling it a genetic disorder is wrong. When, whether it's genetic or psych, it is obviously a disorder. Read the rest of that post if you want more information please.
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#723783 - 11/23/04 06:25 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

There still is no evidence showing it is genetic, which is still on the record to this day as scientific organizations keep coming out and stating that they still have no evidence that it is genetic.
That is such nonsense, there is quite clearly documented evidence in the scientific literature.

Amongst others this abstract is of relevence:

 Quote:

Born gay? The psychobiology of human sexual orientation

Qazi Rahman, and Glenn D. Wilson

Department of Psychology, Institute of Psychiatry, University of London, De Crespigny Park, London SE5 8AF, UK

Received 26 November 2001; revised 1 April 2002; accepted 27 April 2002. ; Available online 9 June 2002.

Abstract
Sexual orientation is fundamental to evolution and shifts from the species-typical pattern of heterosexuality may represent biological variations. The growth of scientific knowledge concerning the biology of sexual orientation during the past decade has been considerable. Sexual orientation is characterised by a bipolar distribution and is related to fraternal birth order in males. In females, its distribution is more variable; females being less prone towards exclusive homosexuality. In both sexes homosexuality is strongly associated with childhood gender nonconformity. Genetic evidence suggests a heritable component and putative gene loci on the X chromosome. Homosexuality may have evolved to promote same sex affiliation through a conserved neurodevelopmental mechanism. Recent findings suggest this mechanism involves atypical neurohormonal differentiation of the brain. Key areas for future research include the neurobiological basis of preferred sexual targets and correlates of female homosexuality.
Stop saying there is no evidence WHEN THERE IS.
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#723784 - 11/23/04 06:33 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
Infact here's some more:

 Quote:

Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among brothers
52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise homosexual
22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual

J.M. Bailey and R.C. Pillard, “A genetic study of male sexual orientation,” Archives of General Psychiatry, vol. 48:1089-1096, December 1991.
 Quote:

Bailey and Pillard (1993): occurrence of homosexuality among sisters
48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (lesbian)
16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual
Bailey, J. M. and D. S. Benishay (1993), “Familial Aggregation of Female Sexual Orientation,” American Journal of Psychiatry 150(2): 272-277.
Note that it is NOT evidence for a solely genetic basis (infact it is evidence against that) but it IS evidence for a partial genetic basis.
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#723785 - 11/23/04 06:57 AM Re: Terrorists rejoice! Bush is elected!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
Moonbat, did you read what you wrote?

"It may have", "suggests"...

The scientific community has many pieces of evidence for many areas that are TRUE. Temperature, heart disease, animal cloning from DNA, etc...

But they simply do not have any evidence that will say that homosexuality IS genetic. There is tons of evidence supporting a theory of a genetical or psychological disorder, but neither have any concrete facts.

If it is genetic, and they cant help it, how come they have girlfriends while in highschool before coming out, or have wives later on after reorientation and reject their sinful desires?

You see, I dont care HOW against the norm it is to be attracted to and have physical relations with a woman it is. I simply could NOT force myself to have sex with a man, just because society says its better? Thusly, homosexuals shouldn't be able to have sex with women at points in their life, when at other points claim to be gay. It doesn't add up.
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--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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