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#723880 - 06/22/04 09:47 AM Is the war over in 9 days?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
I have a serious question about this. Iraq will be a sovereign nation in nine days. We will still have troups there for the foreseeable future. "Mission Accomplished!" was declared over a year ago.

Does that mean we will no longer be "A Nation At War" concerning Iraq? If so, does that mean that prisoners of war must be released? Does it affect any of the "enemy combatants" held at Guantanamo and elsewhere?

Does anyone know?
_________________________
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#723881 - 06/22/04 10:22 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
But the war with Iran is just getting started....

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#723882 - 06/22/04 10:24 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
jkeene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 701
Loc: Central Florida
The POWs will have to be repatriated, not released. There are some protocols for this, including using intermediaries when the two sovereign nations are at war with each other. Since we won't be at war with the new Iraqi government I imagine it will be more direct.

The main thing you want to watch for is the establishment of a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA). This is a significant document, close to treaty level in importance, governing the details of US troops in a host country, covering things like who gets jurisdiction over troops and citizens in legal matters, what rules of engagement the troops will operate under, when and where live fire exercises may be conducted, and so forth. Every soldier arriving in a country with an active SOFA is supposed to get a briefing on the important points.

The detainees at Guantanamo are likely to be unaffected, unless we, the Red Cross, and Iraq agree that one of them is an Iraqi national that should be repatriated.

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#723883 - 06/22/04 10:31 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
What war? We don't even know who we are fighting. Al-Sadr? Sistani? Baathists? (Nah, we gave them Fallujah). Former followers of Saddam Hussein? Iranian infiltrators? Al-Qaeda? Arab nationalists from Syria? Sunnis? Israelis based in Kurdistan?

Mission accomplished. We've got the forward military base. We've got control of the pipeline. What more could we ask for?

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#723884 - 06/22/04 10:39 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
please.....

Do you think, - Shant, that we should let terrorism be a force equal to legal transaction?

What do YOU think? What do YOU suggest?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#723885 - 06/22/04 10:40 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
But the war with Iran is just getting started....

jf [/b]
I thought it was Syria?
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

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#723886 - 06/22/04 11:03 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
But the war with Iran is just getting started....

jf [/b]
I thought it was Syria? [/b]
That one too......

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#723887 - 06/22/04 11:13 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
please.....

Do you think, - Shant, that we should let terrorism be a force equal to legal transaction?

What do YOU think? What do YOU suggest? [/b]
I have written at very long length in the past regarding what I think we should do. To repeat again, I think we should cut the best possible deal with Sistani, including doing whatever we can to protect the Kurds, and GET OUT. Immediately. Tomorrow if not sooner. (If we cut a good enough deal, which we can do now but are less likely to be able to do later, we might even get Wolfowitz's forward military base - in Kurdistan - and control of a pipeline.) Will it be a mess there afterwards? Oh, probably. And Sistani is the best possible man to clean it up.

Hold a victory parade. As Karl Rove notes, we have likely created enough enmity in the Middle East to last decades. We have squandered a veritable ocean of international goodwill that existed after 9/11. We have created terrorists where they didn't previously exist.

The maintenance of the torture school, and Reagan's blessing of Saddam Hussein, and funding of Islamic proto-Al-Qaeda extremists in Afghanistan, emboldening them to take on the superpowers, is now coming home to roost. It is time to turn over a new page. It will take 20-30 years. It took 20-30 years to create this mess, and it won't end quickly.

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#723888 - 06/22/04 11:34 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
your first paragraph is good.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#723889 - 06/22/04 11:42 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
The last paragraph is straight from a fun house mirror.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#723890 - 06/22/04 11:43 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
The apple quote?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#723891 - 06/22/04 11:52 AM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
No.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#723892 - 06/22/04 12:00 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Sorry, your nimble fingers managed to post behind apple, before I could manage my-not-so-witty remark.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#723893 - 06/22/04 12:02 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
The last paragraph is straight from a "fun house mirror". [/b]
Is that a left rag?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#723894 - 06/22/04 12:04 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
...we have likely created enough enmity in the Middle East to last decades. We have squandered a veritable ocean of international goodwill that existed after 9/11. We have created terrorists where they didn't previously exist.[/b]
That sums it up pretty well, doesn't it?

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#723895 - 06/22/04 12:30 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
except it doesn't take into account our support of Israel which was in place long before 9/11. That's a BIG part of the equation.

As to creating terrorists... Really! our actions might have spurred a little recruitment activity, but we've accomplished much to curtail their world-wide influence. I'll have to think of an appropriate analogy for that faulty supposition while I spray for bugs in Kansas.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#723896 - 06/22/04 12:43 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
...we have likely created enough enmity in the Middle East to last decades. We have squandered a veritable ocean of international goodwill that existed after 9/11. We have created terrorists where they didn't previously exist.[/b]
That sums it up pretty well, doesn't it?

jf [/b]
I'm sorry, but that only sums it up for those who don't have a clue what's going on.

For example:
"Mission Accomplished!" was declared over a year ago.[/b]

No, it wasn't. This has been hashed out over and over again, and only those who refuse to pay attention because of ideological blinders keep repeating this. Bush was talking to a crew of sailors who were about to dock after finishing their tour. He was talking to *them*. He was not talking to the nation at large. For them, their mission *was* accomplished. This is one of the problems with the Left - they take things out of context and use the resulting mess they've made to support their weak logic. Bush didn't say "the war is over". He told a crew whose mission was accomplished, "mission accomplished.

Or this one:
Does that mean we will no longer be "A Nation At War" concerning Iraq? If so, does that mean that prisoners of war must be released? Does it affect any of the "enemy combatants" held at Guantanamo and elsewhere?

Does anyone know? [/b]

Yes Cindy, lots of people know. It's only the ones who drink the blue Koolaid that don't know. We are in a war against terrorism. Iraq is not the entire war, it is just one of several fronts in the war. No, the prisoners won't be released, because the war against terrorism is still going on.

But the war with Iran is just getting started....[/b]

The war is against terrorists, and those who support them. One goal is to keep nuclear capability out of the hands of terrorists. Iran is up to their neck in helping terrorists. They are threatening to build nukes. If Iran wasn't doing these things, no one would bother them. As it is, we need to do something.

What war? We don't even know who we are fighting. Al-Sadr? Sistani? Baathists? (Nah, we gave them Fallujah). Former followers of Saddam Hussein? Iranian infiltrators? Al-Qaeda? Arab nationalists from Syria? Sunnis? Israelis based in Kurdistan?[/b]

Sooner or later you have simply *got* to learn to think rationally.

he maintenance of the torture school, and Reagan's blessing of Saddam Hussein, and funding of Islamic proto-Al-Qaeda extremists in Afghanistan, emboldening them to take on the superpowers, is now coming home to roost. It is time to turn over a new page. It will take 20-30 years. It took 20-30 years to create this mess, and it won't end quickly.[/b]

I take that back. You are incapable of rational thought.

No, the war won't be over in 9 days. This may come as a shock to a few of you, but there are people out there who want to destroy us. Don't give me that crap about how we caused them to hate us, they want to destroy Europe too. Including France, their butt kissing friends. This is not a political game we're involved in, it is a fight for the survival of civilization.

Some of you have life too easy. It might be good for a few of you to have to live under the oppression this group would like to put you for a while do you can get your sense of perspective back.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#723897 - 06/22/04 12:48 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
To every thing, there is a reason...spin...spin...spin....

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#723898 - 06/22/04 01:18 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
...we have likely created enough enmity in the Middle East to last decades. We have squandered a veritable ocean of international goodwill that existed after 9/11. We have created terrorists where they didn't previously exist.[/b]
That sums it up pretty well, doesn't it?

jf [/b]
I'm sorry, but that only sums it up for those who don't have a clue what's going on.

For example:
"Mission Accomplished!" was declared over a year ago.[/b]

No, it wasn't. This has been hashed out over and over again, and only those who refuse to pay attention because of ideological blinders keep repeating this. Bush was talking to a crew of sailors who were about to dock after finishing their tour. He was talking to *them*. He was not talking to the nation at large. For them, their mission *was* accomplished. This is one of the problems with the Left - they take things out of context and use the resulting mess they've made to support their weak logic. Bush didn't say "the war is over". He told a crew whose mission was accomplished, "mission accomplished.

[/b]
Larry, sometimes, I can't believe how full of it you are. It is well documented that Mission Accomplished banner was ordered and orchestrated by the W's staff as part of his elaborate PR schtick. This from the NY Times.

The most elaborate - and criticized - White House event so far was Mr. Bush's speech aboard the Abraham Lincoln announcing the end of major combat in Iraq. White House officials say that a variety of people, including the president, came up with the idea, and that Mr. Sforza embedded himself on the carrier to make preparations days before Mr. Bush's landing in a flight suit and his early evening speech.

"Media strategists noted afterward that Mr. Sforza and his aides had choreographed every aspect of the event, even down to the members of the Lincoln crew arrayed in coordinated shirt colors over Mr. Bush's right shoulder and the "Mission Accomplished" banner placed to perfectly capture the president and the celebratory two words in a single shot. The speech was specifically timed for what image makers call "magic hour light," which cast a golden glow on Mr. Bush." Times Article Link

Actually that whole article is a very interesting read about the huge amount of energy (and money - mine and yours, I might add ) that goes into presenting W's little Hallmark moments. Read about the staging of his day after 9-11 poses if you care for a little indigestion.

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#723899 - 06/22/04 01:23 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
kathyk

The Abraham Lincoln's mission was accomplished. That is why they came home. Here is an email from a reader that was posted on the NRO weblog this morning:

I've been in the Navy for 15 years and have done a med cruise.

The "Mission Accomplished" banner was on our ship when we returned from the Med in 1993, and is a common banner used on Navy ships at the end of a deployment.

After two months of workups prior to shipping out and six months at sea, the crew of a Navy ship have accomplished their mission. Because if they hadn't, they'd be steaming home.

That the Democratic Party has tried to spin this into something that it's not is just another example of why they cannot be trusted to defend this nation. [/b]

Obviously, the White House did not invent this banner.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#723900 - 06/22/04 01:30 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
The last paragraph is straight from a fun house mirror. [/b]
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:


The maintenance of the torture school, and Reagan's blessing of Saddam Hussein, and funding of Islamic proto-Al-Qaeda extremists in Afghanistan, emboldening them to take on the superpowers, is now coming home to roost. It is time to turn over a new page. It will take 20-30 years. It took 20-30 years to create this mess, and it won't end quickly. [/b]
I assume this is the paragraph to which you refer, JB. Just what in it are you refuting: that torture was taught in the School of Americas? - pretty well documented what has been taught in that school and the roster of thugs who've graudated from those hallowed halls. That Reagan supported Saddam? Pretty well documented. He was our ally against Iran, remember? That he funded al Quaeda? Just who do you think took hold of the country due to our anti-soviet mission in Afghanistan. Where's the beef, JB? Support your curt dismissals for once.

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#723901 - 06/22/04 01:41 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Hannibal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Sydney, Australia - Cologne, G...
 Quote:
No, the war won't be over in 9 days. This may come as a shock to a few of you, but there are people out there who want to destroy us. Don't give me that crap about how we caused them to hate us, they want to destroy Europe too. Including France, their butt kissing friends. This is not a political game we're involved in, it is a fight for the survival of civilization.
Larry, I agree that it has always been clear that the war on terrorism will be a long struggle. Claiming something else would be naive.

However I disagree with your second statement. I'm not suggesting that it's entirely our own fault that has caused this hate among extremists, but I think that the root of this hate is an equation with many variables. It takes two to tango and somehow we are a part of this equation.
I believe that it's absolutely vital to find out how our actions might have facilitated the rise of this ideology in order to eradicate it.
It would be absolutely naive to believe that we will solve this conflict by arresting and killing all islamistic terrorists of this world. It's simply not possible. I agree that we have to remove the prominent heads of these organizations as soon as possible and if necessary by force, but still it should be our ultimate goal to "win their hearts", otherwise this will be an endless and hopeless war.

RG TL
_________________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

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#723902 - 06/22/04 02:03 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
I assume this is the paragraph to which you refer, JB. Just what in it are you refuting: that torture was taught in the School of Americas? - pretty well documented what has been taught in that school and the roster of thugs who've graudated from those hallowed halls. That Reagan supported Saddam? Pretty well documented. He was our ally against Iran, remember? That he funded al Quaeda? Just who do you think took hold of the country due to our anti-soviet mission in Afghanistan. Where's the beef, JB? Support your curt dismissals for once. [/b]
kathyk,

Much of what he said here is superficially true (I dispute the Al Qaeda reference. They were funded by the Saudis) but it is all out of historical context. The support of Saddam against the backdrop of a larger conflict with Iran for instance. I definitely disagree with the conclusions drawn with regard to the current situation and find them to be entirely unsupportable as well.

I am kind of busy right now and don't have the time to go into what has, after all, been repeated here many times before. I should probably refrain from comment but such silliness is hard to resist commenting upon even if it is just to say "how silly".
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#723903 - 06/22/04 02:06 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
lucian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 404
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
...and GET OUT. Immediately. Tomorrow if not sooner....
[/b][/QUOTE]

sorry,but I think that is exactly what it has NOT to be done!
1.when You start something,You are finishing it.
2.You are not fighting terrorism by runninig away when they put more pressure.Else,they will be convinced that's how they have to deal with everybody.For a long time.
_________________________
lucian
"more I learn,less I know"

piano tuner/technician (sort of..... ;\) )

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#723904 - 06/22/04 02:37 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
The U.S. accomplished every one of our stated goals when we got in. Found and destroyed the WMD, de-established the links between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda, removed the imminent threat, established a forward U.S. military presence, gained control of the Iraqi supply. The U.S. is batting 5 for 5.

Now we are busy snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. If fighting terrorism was the goal, we'd have 135,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan (and would have had them there a long time ago), together with half of Belgium. There is maxim in military parlance that he who chooses the ground win the battle. Al-Qaeda (and lots of others) seem to have chosen Iraq, and the U.S. is falling all over itself to oblige.

Sistani will take care of the terrorists, and Al-Sadr, and the former Baathists. And he'll do so without a single American death.

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#723905 - 06/22/04 02:40 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
But the war with Iran is just getting started....

jf [/b]
I thought it was Syria? [/b]
That one too......

jf [/b]
I thought it was an unending war -- going anywhere the President thinks we need to go, using whatever tactics the President thinks we should use, breaking any international law or agreement the President thinks we should break and denying any human or consitutional rights the President thinks we need to deny.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#723906 - 06/22/04 02:49 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Actually, J.A., you think Bush is the Anti-Christ.

So why should an extremist view such as yours carry weight?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#723907 - 06/22/04 02:54 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
lucian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 404
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
Al-Qaeda (and lots of others) seem to have chosen Iraq, and the U.S. is falling all over itself to oblige.[/b]
that's true.
 Quote:

Sistani will take care of the terrorists, and Al-Sadr, and the former Baathists. And he'll do so without a single American death. [/b]
He will not care of any terrorist.He will try(maybe.....)to keep together a sort of state so called Iraq.Just look once at the news and make the inventory of armament You see in the hands of everybody there,and tell Yourself they have access to all this stuff now,with all the foreign military presence.What will be like when everybody's gone?
_________________________
lucian
"more I learn,less I know"

piano tuner/technician (sort of..... ;\) )

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#723908 - 06/22/04 02:56 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Sistani will have difficulty keeping things in hand with his head on a pole.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#723909 - 06/22/04 02:57 PM Re: Is the war over in 9 days?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Ditto
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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