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#724161 - 03/18/05 01:11 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
By the way, on the issue of the Congressional subpoena, there's a wrinkle that isn't getting much press attention ... yet.

The subpoenas were not validly issued.

As I understand House rules, to issue a subpoena, there has to be a properly called meeting of the committee in question, and that meeting never happened. The chairman simply issued the subpoenas on his own, perhaps with the concurrence of Republican members of the committee, but without a meeting of the full committee. Again, as I understand it, no meeting, no valid subpoena.

That's why the Senate "invited" her, rather than subpoenaing her. They, at least, were following their own rules.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#724162 - 03/18/05 01:12 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
BeeLady Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 2339
Loc: Massachusetts
If it were me, I would want the tube removed and my husband and kids to go on to live a happy life without me.

This reminds me of another case. A woman in a coma while pregnant. She was kept on life support to bring the child to term as her husband had said she wished. The courts overruled him in an attempt to take the baby early...He fought, based on her wishes, lost, c section performed early and both mother and child died... \:\(

I love my parents dearly, but my husband knows my inner most thoughts and feelings. In the end, he is the one who knows what to do....

89th....do YOU have a living will in writing? This woman suffered her heart attack while in her 20's......

I wish Terry Schiavo a peaceful end.
_________________________
BeeLady

Life is like a roll of toilet paper...the closer you get to the end, the faster it goes!

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#724163 - 03/18/05 01:17 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
Beelady: Her end won't be peaceful -- perhaps Dr Moonlight can fill us all in on what happens as someone dies of dehydration.

It is disgusting -- the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death. She is low level responsive, not in PVS, and will undoubtedly feel pain as she dies because she is not getting liquid and nutrition.

What a country we live in.
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724164 - 03/18/05 01:18 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:

Whatever Terri's condition, it's just sad. If she's in a persistent vegetative state, it's sad that her parents fighting for years to keep her alive, to satisfy their own desire to get their daughter back. And if she's conscious but totally unable to respond ... unable to move, to communicate, to do anything at all ... well, that sounds an awful lot like hell to me. [/b]
I agree in principle but there seems to be considerable doubt as to whether she really is in a persistent vegetative state. None of the tests usually run to make such a determination have been run and her husband refuses to allow them to be run. At least, that is what is being reported. If someone can show me different I might have a change of heart but there is something deeply suspicious about this man's behavior by all accounts I have seen.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#724165 - 03/18/05 01:28 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"None of the tests usually run to make such a determination have been run and her husband refuses to allow them to be run."

If that's true, I would find it deeply suspicious too. However, I don't think Judge Greer is in Schiavo's pocket, so I wonder why he reached the determination that he did (and how Schiavo managed to line up so many medical witnesses) if that were true.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#724166 - 03/18/05 01:30 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Dave Spelvin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 382
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
The courts have made a decision based on the available evidence. Congress is butting in to score political points. Who do you trust?

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#724167 - 03/18/05 01:33 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"None of the tests usually run to make such a determination have been run and her husband refuses to allow them to be run."

If that's true, I would find it deeply suspicious too. However, I don't think Judge Greer is in Schiavo's pocket, so I wonder why he reached the determination that he did (and how Schiavo managed to line up so many medical witnesses) if that were true. [/b]
Part of the problem is that PVS is misdiagnosed approximately 20% of the time. Since the trial began, there has been new technology introduced that is much more definitive in the testing. However, as the technology has been released only recently, when approached regarding it's use only a month or two, the judge denied it. Why? I don't know. I also doubt he's in Schiavo'spocket, however, it wouldn't hurt to delay things for another couple of weeks and allow second opinions.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#724168 - 03/18/05 01:34 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
If that's true, I would find it deeply suspicious too. However, I don't think Judge Greer is in Schiavo's pocket, so I wonder why he reached the determination that he did (and how Schiavo managed to line up so many medical witnesses) if that were true. [/b]
Your point is well takem. However, did Judge Greer make his determination based on medical testimony or was it based on his finding that the state could not interfere with Mr. Schiavo's rights as sole guardian?
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#724169 - 03/18/05 01:40 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
Part of the problem is that PVS is misdiagnosed approximately 20% of the time. [/b]
I'm betting that that 20% does not involve cases in which the person has been in PVS for 14 years (like Schiavo), but rather 6 months or less. From what I've read, the latter are the "iffy" cases.

I'd like someone to answer my question about the Alzheimer's patient who has stopped eating and signed no advanced directive. Forced feeding tube?

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#724170 - 03/18/05 01:41 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
It is disgusting -- the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death. [/b]
Oh, stop it! I usually agree with alot of your opinions, but come on! You can hardly say the guy is "shacking up" with this woman, or truly even being unfaithful. You and I might disagree with his decisions, and might have behaved differently ourselves, but without being in that situation, going through life without our wives for years, and we might have done the same thing. And financial interest? Do you truly believe that any of the money from that lawsuit 10 years ago is left? Even at minimum levels, the managed care for his wife over this time would be unbelieveable in cost. I think that he is handling things poorly, I think he may be wrong in being so sure of his wife's condition, but I can't believe this man has any other motivation than what he feels is best for Terry, even if he is mistaken.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#724171 - 03/18/05 01:46 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Beelady: Her end won't be peaceful -- perhaps Dr Moonlight can fill us all in on what happens as someone dies of dehydration.

[/b]
I have seen four people live artificially for long lengths of time. Medicine can keep the body functioning, there is no doubt.

Miss Schiavo should not suffer because of that. Let's get real. There is absolutely no spiritual or physical advantage to be had in prolonging her existence. There is no joy in her life. None. I have a friend I see regularly who was severely mentally and physically damaged in a car wreck.. She is a total vegetable. ... she was in a car wreck in the late 70s.

Are we as a society to assume some moral obligation to keep all vegetables running? No government should decide such a personal issue. It's like abortion, only right.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#724172 - 03/18/05 01:46 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
I'm betting that that 20% does not involve cases in which the person has been in PVS for 14 years (like Schiavo), but rather 6 months or less. From what I've read, the latter are the "iffy" cases.
[/b]
14 years? Does that include the time, about two years after her collapse and diagnosis, that it was documented she was screaming in pain and repeatedly yelling "NO! NO! NO!" when people tried to touch her legs and arms? They ran Xrays and discovered her limbs were broken. Does that sound like PVS?
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#724173 - 03/18/05 01:48 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
BeeLady Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 2339
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Beelady: Her end won't be peaceful -- perhaps Dr Moonlight can fill us all in on what happens as someone dies of dehydration.[/b]
Heard today on NPR that plans were in place to give her Morphine and other pain meds to ease her. I have known ill people NOT in vegatative states that have done this, refusing food or drink to bring their suffering to an end.

It is disgusting -- the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death. [/b][/QUOTE]

I try very hard to imagine our family in this sort of situation. I would want my husband to find love, a partner in life for himself and our kids if I had been like this for 15 YEARS, even if I still was "alive". The last thing I would want is for my family to remember me this way...Not to mention the fighting going on...

Death is not usually pain free for anyone. It seems rather romantic (or unrealistic?) to think that we all just quietly slip away without discomfort...
_________________________
BeeLady

Life is like a roll of toilet paper...the closer you get to the end, the faster it goes!

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#724174 - 03/18/05 01:58 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I'm with you, Beelady. Really, are there many of us (any of us!) here, who would want to be kept alive like Terry Schiavo has for 14 years?

Last year, my mother was in the same nursing home as a woman a couple of years younger than me, who was in a head-on collision her senior year of high school. She was kept alive all these years with tubes, like Terry Schiavo. My mother used to wheel herself into her room, and even in my mother's foggy mental state, she empathized deeply with that girl/woman and soooo wished she could die and go to heaven. Funny thing is, after living like a vegetable for nearly 30 years and within a day of my mother's death, she finally died. I truly believe that my mother somehow helped her to the other side.

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#724175 - 03/18/05 02:09 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

It is disgusting -- the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death
If I became like that, i'd want my partner to move on and try and find happyness, rather than stay being tied to something that looks a bit like me, but really isn't me at all.
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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#724176 - 03/18/05 02:13 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
BeeLady Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 2339
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
I'm with you, Beelady. Really, are there many of us (any of us!) here, who would want to be kept alive like Terry Schiavo has for 14 years?
[/b]
This is where sometimes I feel modern medicine fails us....50 years ago she would have died within days.

Just because you have the means to prolong life doesn't mean you should.

And kathyk, in answer to your previous question, no, I do not believe the Alzheimer's patient should be given the feeding tube. My 76 year old Mother and I have discussed this very thing.
_________________________
BeeLady

Life is like a roll of toilet paper...the closer you get to the end, the faster it goes!

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#724177 - 03/18/05 02:15 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
opps

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#724178 - 03/18/05 02:26 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
This is one reason why our medical costs are so high. Let the woman die with some dignity. The House is a total farce on this. Don't they have something worthwhile to do? I do not pay them to waste taxpayers time on this nonsense.

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#724179 - 03/18/05 02:28 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Cindy: " sure hope that if I'm ever incapacitated that a perfect stranger who never met me would take over my care and make the difficult decisions. No way would I want my husband to handle this in accordance with my wishes and state law.

Better yet, I would certainly hope that Congress would drop everything and hurriedly pass a bill deciding what is to be done with me. That way, I can rest assured that my situation won't be exploited for political purposes or anything."



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#724180 - 03/18/05 02:36 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:

It is disgusting -- the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death.[/b]
In all this I haven't seen any attempt by you to see both sides of the story. My experience is that when people are certain they are right, they're usually not. You haven't answered the question of what you would want if you were Terri Schaivo.

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#724181 - 03/18/05 02:38 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
sarah_blueparrot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 808
Loc: Bristol, England
When was that question asked, Steve Chandler?
_________________________
Every time you play a funeral march, the devil grabs a soul.

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#724182 - 03/18/05 02:38 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
 Quote:
the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death.
It seems obvious to me that the law should be that no one who stands to inherit from the ill person can be allowed to make this decision. It's on obvious conflict of interest.

That apparently was not the law in Florida. Perhaps Jeb and company should focus on fixing the real problem with their laws and stop maligning this husband.

And no, JB, Terri's parents don't matter here, legally. Once you marry, the husband takes over the responsibility to decide care. Should we give standing to other relatives, more and more cases will end up in court, and that's bad for everyone.
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#724183 - 03/18/05 02:43 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
I'll ask the question: If knew you'd wind up the way Terry is, what would you want done?

I'd want my husband to make the decision, and I'd want him to give me a reasonable amount of time to recover and then take care of business before my entire estate was depleted by medical expenses, preferably.

If my parents disagreed with him, I would hope he'd be very, very kind to them, and disconnect my feeding tube over their objection.

I would not want my death to be a circus side-show as Terry's has become.
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#724184 - 03/18/05 02:50 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
[QUOTE]And no, JB, Terri's parents don't matter here, legally. Once you marry, the husband takes over the responsibility to decide care. Should we give standing to other relatives, more and more cases will end up in court, and that's bad for everyone. [/b]
Your comment did not mention people that don't matter. It specifically mentioned total strangers.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#724185 - 03/18/05 02:55 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
sarah_blueparrot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 808
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I'll ask the question: If knew you'd wind up the way Terry is, what would you want done?
[/b]
It's a tough one. Now to mention depressing. I think that, sitting here alive and well, I would be brave enough to say switch it off. But there would always be the possibility in my mind that I might wake up and continue with my life, and that would be the worst thing to cut off.
_________________________
Every time you play a funeral march, the devil grabs a soul.

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#724186 - 03/18/05 02:55 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
JB, the total stranger who hoped to take over Terri's care was Jeb Bush.

 Quote:
However, did Judge Greer make his determination based on medical testimony or was it based on his finding that the state could not interfere with Mr. Schiavo's rights as sole guardian?
As I understand it, the mere fact that you are someone's guardian does not allow you to disconnect a feeding tube/life support, etc. You have to get a court order, and there has to be evidence that disconnection is appropriate.

Isn't that correct?
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#724187 - 03/18/05 03:01 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by sarah_blueparrot:
When was that question asked, Steve Chandler? [/b]
I asked it, in Page 2.

Me quote: "Really, are there many of us (any of us!) here, who would want to be kept alive like Terry Schiavo has for 14 years?"

I also asked what people think about forcing a feeding tube down the throat of a Stage 7 Alzheimer's patient who has stopped eating and can no longer swallow.

One more question. Does anyone know of anyone who has been comatose for this long and revived? I do recall reading a remarkable story recently about someone who had after a very long time. I can't remember the details.

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#724188 - 03/18/05 03:03 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Quoting apple:

 Quote:
I have seen four people live artificially for long lengths of time. Medicine can keep the body functioning, there is no doubt.

Miss Schiavo should not suffer because of that. Let's get real. There is absolutely no spiritual or physical advantage to be had in prolonging her existence. There is no joy in her life. None. I have a friend I see regularly who was severely mentally and physically damaged in a car wreck.. She is a total vegetable. ... she was in a car wreck in the late 70s.

Are we as a society to assume some moral obligation to keep all vegetables running? No government should decide such a personal issue. It's like abortion, only right.
No I do not think that we as a society have an obligation to keep all "vegetables" running. Nor should we.

I might add that if indeed Terri is forced to appear before congress, it might instill in that august body that there are some things that should be decided by family, not them.

It is a difficult question, considering the fact that her parents and her husband do not agree. We, as a society, can't settle those differences. They will remain.

I can only put myself in Terri's place. I would want them to pull the plug. Let me die in peace, with those I love around me.

What is really sad is that those who love her can't agree. I might add that I find it disgusting that this woman's life, vegetative state, and ultimmate demise has become a political football.

IMHO, let the woman die in peace. In real life, I can't imagine that she would want otherwise. This isn't her fight. It's their's. There is no life left in her. It has become a political fight. That isn't right!

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#724189 - 03/18/05 03:04 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
sarah_blueparrot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 808
Loc: Bristol, England
You are absolutely right, kathyk.

I would not agree with forcing a tube down the throat of an Alzheimer's patient. Partly because I don't like the idea of anyone forcing a tube down me anywhere, and partly because I would never want to be that helpless. I just don't know if I would have the guts to be switched off or left. Not that I would have a choice at that stage.
_________________________
Every time you play a funeral march, the devil grabs a soul.

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#724190 - 03/18/05 03:18 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Much has been said in this thread about Terry's medical condition. Maybe some facts are in order, taken from "Bush v. Schiavo," the Florida Supreme Court order striking down the law enacted so that Jeb Bush could overrule the judicial decisions allowing the disconnection of the feeding tube.

************************


Theresa Marie Schindler was born on December 3, 1963, and lived with or near her parents in Pennsylvania until she married Michael Schiavo on November 10, 1984. Michael and Theresa moved to Florida in 1986. They were happily married and both were employed. They had no children.

On February 25, 1990, their lives changed. Theresa, age 27, suffered a cardiac arrest as a result of a potassium imbalance. Michael called 911, and Theresa was rushed to the hospital. She
never regained consciousness.

Since 1990, Theresa has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening.

For the first three years after this tragedy, Michael and Theresa’s parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, enjoyed an amicable relationship. However, that relationship ended in 1993 and the parties literally stopped speaking to each other.

In May of 1998, eight years after Theresa lost consciousness, Michael petitioned the guardianship court to authorize the termination of life-prolonging procedures. See id. By filing this petition, which the Schindlers opposed, Michael placed the difficult decision in the hands of the court.

After a trial, at which both Michael and the Schindlers presented evidence, the guardianship court issued an extensive written order authorizing the discontinuance of artificial life support. The trial court found by clear and
convincing evidence that Theresa Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and that Theresa would elect to cease life-prolonging procedures if she were competent to make her own decision. This order was affirmed on direct appeal, see Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 177, and we denied review. See In re Guardianship of Schiavo, 789 So. 2d 348 (Fla. 2001).

The severity of Theresa’s medical condition was explained by the Second District as follows:

The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes
moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a
severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.
Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 177.



In affirming the trial court’s order, the Second
District concluded by stating:

In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few
weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most
instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely,
would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives.[/b]
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