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#724191 - 03/18/05 03:27 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I'm telling you , it's that frozen smile on her face and the noises she makes that have created the huge controversy. No one (except Hitler and Co.) wants to kill someone just because they're disabled. I think we can all agree on that. I've seen that video of her, and it does give one pause. because she does appear to conscious. But, from what I've read, she is not. The sounds are random and meaningless and the smile is *always* there (and rather gruesome, if you ask me, i.e. almost skeletal looking). But, I do think that is why this case has taken on such epic proportions.

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#724192 - 03/18/05 03:51 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Chandler:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:

It is disgusting -- the loving husband is shacking up with another woman and has a serious financial interest in Terri's death.[/b]
In all this I haven't seen any attempt by you to see both sides of the story. My experience is that when people are certain they are right, they're usually not. You haven't answered the question of what you would want if you were Terri Schaivo. [/b]
Look, if he no longer wants to be married to her, and wants to be with another woman, then divorce and get on with his life with another woman. I have no problem with that, or that a lot of you (and perhaps myself included) would want that for those who are still capable, and would want their partners to find a loving person to be with. But to play both sides here, and actively move for her death against her parents and other immediate family wishes seems to be incredibly brazen.

Watch these videos and you judge how incapacited she is. As you said Steve, My experience is that when people are certain they are right, they're usually not.[/b]

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/balloon.rm

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Mum.rm

Yes, she is obviously brain damaged. Do we kill people in America for this?
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724193 - 03/18/05 04:22 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
It's not just damaged - it's destroyed. Instead of cerebral brain matter she has water. Her brain is really and truly mush.

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#724194 - 03/18/05 04:29 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
The problem is that we really don't know what is REALLY going on with her. The doctors seem to think she has no consciousness (not as if anyone can actually EXPLAIN what and where consciousness really is.) Her parents seem to think she just has no motor control.

If she is cognizant of things--she seems to have adjusted to the life she's living. If she really is dead, brain dead, what good does killing her really do--she's already dead and it doesn't matter.

Best, in this and in all such cases, to err on the side of life.

My personal thought's are that she is alive. My proof: if she were actually brain dead already the ACLU would not be interested in the case. They only like to kill living human beings that can't defend themselves. \:\(
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#724195 - 03/18/05 04:35 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
JB, the total stranger who hoped to take over Terri's care was Jeb Bush.
[/b]
I met Jeb's Mom today in Orlando. She's a cutie!

\:\)
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#724196 - 03/18/05 04:37 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
It's not just damaged - it's destroyed. Instead of cerebral brain matter she has water. Her brain is really and truly mush. [/b]
You looked at the videos and can conclude that?

What is your competency for this sort of diagnosis? Have you looked at her EEG? You indicated before that she has none. How can she respond if she has no EEG -- or did you just make that up? Have you looked at biopsies of her brain tissue, or did you just make this up also?

Furthermore, what do you mean by "destroyed"? She has (limited) motor skills, she interacts with people, she follows directions...

Look at the video of her opening her eyes under direction VIDEO -- it takes longer for me to wake up and adjust my eyes than it did her!

KathyK, if you really want to do serious research into this case, look at TERRI\'S FIGHT.ORG
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724197 - 03/18/05 04:58 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"She has (limited) motor skills, she interacts with people, she follows directions..."

This is not true. It's a myth perpetuated by her family. Read the court transcripts if you want to see what the nurses who were in charge of her care have to say about her behavior.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#724198 - 03/18/05 05:08 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"She has (limited) motor skills, she interacts with people, she follows directions..."

This is not true. It's a myth perpetuated by her family. Read the court transcripts if you want to see what the nurses who were in charge of her care have to say about her behavior. [/b]
Quirtus: Did you actually look at the videos that I posted links to? I can't see this as being very mythical based on the videography evidence.

Now unless it can be shown that this is some elaborate CGI hoax, I would put my faith in the videos over the nurses' testimony.
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724199 - 03/18/05 05:16 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:

I would put my faith in the videos over the nurses' testimony. [/b]
I personally would like to see a nurse video now and then, but my wife won't let me. \:\(
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#724200 - 03/18/05 05:48 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"I would put my faith in the videos over the nurses' testimony."

Videos can be staged and doctored. These were videos obtained surreptitiously (and in contravention of a court order) by the family, after all, and we all know that they are totally unbiased, right?

Apparently, anyone who says Terri is in a persistent vegetative state is biased or evil. Let's put her husband aside for a moment. What's Judge Greer's bias? That he doesn't want to reverse himself? How about the Florida appeals court that said that this case had received a greater degree of due process than almost any other case, and rejected the appeal of Judge Greer's ruling? What's their bias? And the nurses? What's their bias? And the medical professionals who are actually responsible for Terri's care? What's their bias?

Why is it that the only people involved in this case who supposedly are unbiased are the family members who don't want to let go?

Someone reminded me earlier of the book "Johnny Got His Gun". I remember reading that thing when I was young, I had nightmares for a week. Honestly, I feel even worse for the poor woman if she is, as her family claims, minimally conscious. What a terrible way to have to live. I hope there's a special place in Hell reserved for people who, to satisfy their own selfish, neurotic needs, are willing to put someone through decades of that.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#724201 - 03/18/05 05:59 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:


Apparently, anyone who says Terri is in a persistent vegetative state is biased or evil. [/b]
That would be the ACLU.

You may have a point. \:\)
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#724202 - 03/18/05 06:05 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
newpianoplayer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/01
Posts: 362
Loc: CANADA
Theresa, age 27, suffered a cardiac arrest as a result of a potassium imbalance
-------------------------------------------------

What caused the potassium imbalance.
_________________________
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#724203 - 03/18/05 06:18 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"I would put my faith in the videos over the nurses' testimony."

Videos can be staged and doctored. These were videos obtained surreptitiously (and in contravention of a court order) by the family, after all, and we all know that they are totally unbiased, right?

Apparently, anyone who says Terri is in a persistent vegetative state is biased or evil. Let's put her husband aside for a moment. What's Judge Greer's bias? That he doesn't want to reverse himself? How about the Florida appeals court that said that this case had received a greater degree of due process than almost any other case, and rejected the appeal of Judge Greer's ruling? What's their bias? And the nurses? What's their bias? And the medical professionals who are actually responsible for Terri's care? What's their bias?

Why is it that the only people involved in this case who supposedly are unbiased are the family members who don't want to let go?

Someone reminded me earlier of the book "Johnny Got His Gun". I remember reading that thing when I was young, I had nightmares for a week. Honestly, I feel even worse for the poor woman if she is, as her family claims, minimally conscious. What a terrible way to have to live. I hope there's a special place in Hell reserved for people who, to satisfy their own selfish, neurotic needs, are willing to put someone through decades of that. [/b]
Yes, Quirtus -- we all know that videos can be staged and doctored. Do these seem to be?

I, at least, never said that anyone who says Schiavo is in PVS is either biased or evil -- I just do not see evidence of this diagnosis from the videos. From Dorland's Medical Dictionary:
 Quote:
persistent vegetative state, a condition of profound nonresponsiveness in the wakeful state [/b]caused by brain damage at whatever level and characterized by a nonfunctioning cerebral cortex, the absence of any discernible adaptive response to the external environment[/b], akinesia, mutism, and inability to signal; the electroencephalogram may be isoelectric or show abnormal activity.
Honestly, Quirt, do you see her condition as meeting these criteria? Do you think that her responsiveness can be AND HAS BEEN staged?

As far as "surreptitiously" getting photos -- the doc is right there-- I see no evidence of your charge. As far as court orders -- BFD. If a woman's life is in danger, then disobeying a court order is low level stuff. And it is not even apparent that this was the case, is it?

I am rather shocked at your rhetoric -- both the apparent hatred you display for her family and supporters, and the crack diagnosis that anyone who supports her cause must be doing so "to satisfy their own selfish, neurotic needs". Are you THAT certain of your own position, and how can you be?
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724204 - 03/18/05 06:36 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
If you believe in the sanctity of marriage, then this is her husband's decision and her parents have no right to interfere. "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female and said 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh." (Matthew 19: 5-6)

She and her husband were married in a Sacramental Union. From that day forward, all responsibility for her became her husband's and all responsibility for him became hers.

If you don't believe in the sanctity of marriage, by all means support the parents over the husband to whom she was bound before God and man. But if you believe that marriage truly has meaning, you cannot deny the husband the right to make this terrible decision.

One either upholds marriage or one does not. Siding with the parents in this situation is to act against marriage.

This is a tragic and terrible situation. There has been no indication at all that for the first several years her husband stayed with her and did what he could to give her a chance to survive. It is only in the last few years that he has decided the time has come. For anyone to condemn him is to judge someone you do not know for making one of the most difficult and personal decisions a husband must make. I would not want to second guess him.

Under the circumstances, for anyone to say the parents have the right to determine what is to happen to her is to claim that Sacramental Marriage has no meaning the moment difficult and tragic decisions must be made and the spouse differs with the parents.

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#724205 - 03/18/05 06:50 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"Honestly, Quirt, do you see her condition as meeting these criteria?"

I'm not a medical professional, and I haven't examined her. To the best of my knowledge, you haven't examined her either. I wouldn't presume, as you seem willing to do, to make a medical diagnosis on the basis of a videotape. To paraphrase you, are you that certain of your own judgment that you'd make a decision on the basis of a videotape prepared by an admittedly biased party to the proceedings?

Since I'm not a medical professional (out of curiosity, are you?), I rely on the opinions of those who have actually been responsible for her medical care. To the best of my knowledge, those opinions are unanimous. Using your criteria, are you THAT certain that you're right that you think that all of those medical professionals .. not people pulled in from 1000 miles away, but people who have actually treated Terri Schiavo .. are wrong?

I also rely on the opinions of the Florida judge, the Florida court of appeals, and the Florida Supreme Court, all of whom reached the same judgment after reviewing much more evidence far more carefully than you or I have. Do you think that the Florida jurists reached the conclusion that Terri's cerebellum is now liquid lightly, and without due consideration of the medical evidence? To paraphrase you again, are you THAT certain of your own judgment that you think that all the Florida jurists who have looked at the case, all of whom have seen far more evidence than you, have all reached the wrong conclusion?

As to whether these tapes are doctored .. I'm not in a position to say. I do know that Judge Greer ordered that no video or pictures be taken of Terri, and I do know that these videos were taken in direct violation of that court order.

As for hatred of her supporters .. no. I am disgusted by her family, but I have no hatred of them. Her parents, who refuse to let the poor woman go and insist on her living in this awful state to satisfy their own neurotic need to believe that their daughter is still alive .. I sincerely hope that there is some cosmic payback for the agony they are putting Terri through.

I am even more disgusted by the members of Congress who have made Terri a cause celebre. As Judge Greer asked today, if the United States Congress is so seriously concerned with the plight of people in supposedly persistent vegetative states, exactly how many, other than Terri, are they investigating? In exactly how many situations has the House Government Oversight Committee sought emergency intervention, and how many other cases are they seeking to intervene in right now? The answer from the Committee's counsel ... none.

I'm not certain at all of Terri's diagnosis, but it doesn't matter to me whether Terri is in a persistent vegetative state or minimally conscious. I wouldn't want to live in either of those conditions. Her husband says she wouldn't want to live that way. The courts have believed her husband. That's the end of the story, as far as I am concerned.

By the way, someone asked:

"What caused the potassium imbalance."

It was caused by her decision, at a time when she was still conscious, to go on a crash diet.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#724206 - 03/18/05 07:00 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by BeeLady:
89th....do YOU have a living will in writing? [/b]
No I don't. I plan to have one once I am married with kids...or enough assets to mean something. \:\)
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#724207 - 03/18/05 07:03 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
Neither kids nor assets have anything to do with whether you want to be kept alive in a persistent vegetative state.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#724208 - 03/18/05 07:05 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
The sanctity of a marriage is only as valid as the faithfulness of those who have entered into the covenant. I have a lot of respect for the sanctity of marriage - a lot more than Mr. Schiavo apparently does - and I think that in light of his behavior and his de facto abandonment of her justifies someone other than him making legal decisions on her behalf, especially in the absence of written documentation from her defining her wishes.

What is happening to Terri is a shameful blot on our society, and we will all ultimately pay for advocating for, or at least allowing, this tragedy to happen.

Starving her to death. Just imagine it. We wring our hands in self-guilt for doing far less to enemy combatants in Guantanamo. We couldn't have done this to Timothy McVeigh; it would have been "cruel and unusual punishment." I wouldn't do this to my enemy. I wouldn't do this to my dog. Yet we can justify it in her case somehow.

If someone truly believes that Terri deserves to be put to rest - and while I don't agree with that position, I at least understand it and concede its origin is compassion - why starve her to death? It would be more "humane" to simply shoot her and end her misery instantly. We don't do this because the pure barbarity and violence of the act forces us to recognize exactly what we decided to do with her.

And if not anything that messy, how about simple lethal injection? That way, it would seem much more peaceful, almost like she just went to sleep. But we wouldn't even do that with her, because nobody wants to be the one to actually administer death to this innocent person. Nobody wants the responsibility of having her blood, even figuratively, on their hands.

So, we opt for the most despicable and cowardly option available to us. We claim compassion, and then we deprive her of food and allow her to die a slow death on her own.

By allowing Terri Schiavo to die like this, all our hands become bloody - all the while trying to claim, with all the success of Pontius Pilate, that our hands of clean of the blood of the condemned; and that we're actually quite compassionate souls.

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#724209 - 03/18/05 07:07 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:

As for hatred of her supporters .. no. I am disgusted by her family, but I have no hatred of them. Her parents, who refuse to let the poor woman go and insist on her living in this awful state to satisfy their own neurotic need to believe that their daughter is still alive .. I sincerely hope that there is some cosmic payback for the agony they are putting Terri through.[/b]
I am not disgusted with her parents. I feel very deeply for them. What they see happening to their child must be wrenching. I cannot imagine the pain they have felt once she slipped into the coma and I understand their wanting to keep her alive; to hope against hope.

I just do not believe that they have any right to overrule her husband when it comes to her care. He has the right, given to him by God, when he married her.

 Quote:
I am even more disgusted by the members of Congress who have made Terri a cause celebre.[/b]
Along with the Florida legislature and Jeb Bush.

To use such a horrible situation to grandstand for political gain is perhaps the greatest evil I have seen in this entire case. What a cynical abuse of her, her husband and her parents!

If all of these politicians really believe what they say they believe, let them debate and pass a law that affects everyone in this situation. None of them have done this. They are just getting TV face time by making this entire matter a political farce to get votes in the next election.

What sort of cold and unfeeling human being uses other people's tragedies this way?!

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#724210 - 03/18/05 07:09 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I'll ask the question: If knew you'd wind up the way Terry is, what would you want done?
[/b]
For me, I think death is the 2nd worst thing that can happen to anyone on Earth.

The first, is ceaseless torture and concordantly dying slowly.

So to answer your question, I don't know. I don't know if she is being tortured, but it doesn't look like it.

If 12 out of 12 doctors would sign off saying I had a 95% chance of not coming out of a coma, vegetative state, etc...then yes I would want to be taken out of my misery. The problem here, is that there are doctors out there who say she can be rehabilitated...so I say give her to her parents already, and let the adulterer get on with his life.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#724211 - 03/18/05 07:10 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
RZ:

Are you seriously arguing the sacramentality question? (I assume you are speaking about a Catholic sacramental question, and will answer thus).

That is quite bizarre argument given that (even if it were a sacramental bond about which I have no knowledge): (1) the husband does not seem to be particularly bound by these vows given that he is allegedly and openly in an adulterous relationship; (2) the nature of sacramentality is to lay down our lives for our spouses, not to kill them off through court ordered starvation and dehydration; and (3) the husband's action contravene traditional Christian morality in seeking to deprive her of even oral hydration (which she is evidently capable of receiving).

It is not against marriage to intervene if a spouse is abusing another is it? I am surprised that you are attempting a theological argument that is so far from Catholic moral principles.
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724212 - 03/18/05 07:14 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"I would put my faith in the videos over the nurses' testimony."

Videos can be staged and doctored. [/b]
GREAT PUN!!!!!!!!!!!!! \:D \:D \:D \:D

Sorry.

Oh, and if I were in that state, I would rather take a bullet to the head or a less graphic shot of adrenaline, rather than starving to death.

Everything about this case is wrong, even how she dies.

Let her live.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#724213 - 03/18/05 07:17 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
Siding with the parents in this situation is to act against marriage. [/b]
Wrong.

He gave up his marriage rights when he committed adultery....an act he is STILL committing right now.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#724214 - 03/18/05 07:18 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"Honestly, Quirt, do you see her condition as meeting these criteria?"

I'm not a medical professional, and I haven't examined her. To the best of my knowledge, you haven't examined her either. I wouldn't presume, as you seem willing to do, to make a medical diagnosis on the basis of a videotape. To paraphrase you, are you that certain of your own judgment that you'd make a decision on the basis of a videotape prepared by an admittedly biased party to the proceedings?

Since I'm not a medical professional (out of curiosity, are you?), I rely on the opinions of those who have actually been responsible for her medical care. To the best of my knowledge, those opinions are unanimous. Using your criteria, are you THAT certain that you're right that you think that all of those medical professionals .. not people pulled in from 1000 miles away, but people who have actually treated Terri Schiavo .. are wrong?

I also rely on the opinions of the Florida judge, the Florida court of appeals, and the Florida Supreme Court, all of whom reached the same judgment after reviewing much more evidence far more carefully than you or I have. Do you think that the Florida jurists reached the conclusion that Terri's cerebellum is now liquid lightly, and without due consideration of the medical evidence? To paraphrase you again, are you THAT certain of your own judgment that you think that all the Florida jurists who have looked at the case, all of whom have seen far more evidence than you, have all reached the wrong conclusion?

As to whether these tapes are doctored .. I'm not in a position to say. I do know that Judge Greer ordered that no video or pictures be taken of Terri, and I do know that these videos were taken in direct violation of that court order.

As for hatred of her supporters .. no. I am disgusted by her family, but I have no hatred of them. Her parents, who refuse to let the poor woman go and insist on her living in this awful state to satisfy their own neurotic need to believe that their daughter is still alive .. I sincerely hope that there is some cosmic payback for the agony they are putting Terri through.

I am even more disgusted by the members of Congress who have made Terri a cause celebre. As Judge Greer asked today, if the United States Congress is so seriously concerned with the plight of people in supposedly persistent vegetative states, exactly how many, other than Terri, are they investigating? In exactly how many situations has the House Government Oversight Committee sought emergency intervention, and how many other cases are they seeking to intervene in right now? The answer from the Committee's counsel ... none.

I'm not certain at all of Terri's diagnosis, but it doesn't matter to me whether Terri is in a persistent vegetative state or minimally conscious. I wouldn't want to live in either of those conditions. Her husband says she wouldn't want to live that way. The courts have believed her husband. That's the end of the story, as far as I am concerned.

By the way, someone asked:

"What caused the potassium imbalance."

It was caused by her decision, at a time when she was still conscious, to go on a crash diet. [/b]
It is INCREDIBLY suspicious that the court would order pictures to not be taken of her. What is the judge so afraid of? Justice is supposed to be blind, not the people by a court order.

So is she alive or is she not? You seem to say she is not alive, and you blame her parents for trying "satisfy their own neurotic need to believe that their daughter is still alive", yet you speak of "the agony they are putting Terri through". Dead people don't have mortal agony, Quirtus. You are either dead or alive -- either your body is producing blood gases or it is not. You cannot have it both ways, so if she is not alive, there is no "agony" and there is no problem continuing to feed, hydrate, interact with her, and change her diaper.
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#724215 - 03/18/05 07:18 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
Neither kids nor assets have anything to do with whether you want to be kept alive in a persistent vegetative state. [/b]
Oh I know...that is just when I plan on writing a will.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#724216 - 03/18/05 07:19 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
The sanctity of a marriage is only as valid as the faithfulness of those who have entered into the covenant. I have a lot of respect for the sanctity of marriage - a lot more than Mr. Schiavo apparently does - and I think that in light of his behavior and his de facto abandonment of her justifies someone other than him making legal decisions on her behalf, especially in the absence of written documentation from her defining her wishes.[/b]
Dwain, this is an unfair judgement against him. Neither you nor I know what he has been through to come to the conclusion that the women he loved and the women who side he stood by for years after she entered into a coma should be allowed to return to God.

Perhaps he is an evil man. I have seen nothing that indicates this, though. Indeed, his actions for years mitigate against this judgement.

Whatever anyone may think of the morality of his decision and the morality of this act does not give anyone the right to condemn him given all we know.

This is one best left to God to judge the morality of the decision. But it is a decision that is her husband's to make; not her parents. If marriage means anything, it must mean that one spouse has the right to make such decisions for the other spouse. She gave her life to him, as he did to her. This gives him that right and takes it from her parents. If we do not believe that, then in what other circumstances can the parents step in and make decisions for a married child?

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#724217 - 03/18/05 07:24 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
Starving her to death. Just imagine it. We wring our hands in self-guilt for doing far less to enemy combatants in Guantanamo. We couldn't have done this to Timothy McVeigh; it would have been "cruel and unusual punishment." I wouldn't do this to my enemy. I wouldn't do this to my dog. Yet we can justify it in her case somehow.[/b]
Sorry Dwain, I didn't see your post before I said the same thing down below.

...and yes, referring to your post...it is 100%, completely, insanely MIND BOGGLING. I can't believe one human would do that to another.

Reminds me of an event that happened while I wasn't posting here a few weeks ago: A good friend of mine (a few years younger) that I used to hang out with every summer, every day...is at college in West Va, and someone broke into his house (a bunch of guys actually) and when my friend Matt woke up they beat him with a baseball bat. Crushed his skull. I hear he is still in the ICU, but will most likely be brain damaged for the rest of his life.

That was just a major story that I never shared with you all...and I bring it up, because I just can not comprehend how one human does that to another....sickening.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#724218 - 03/18/05 07:24 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
Siding with the parents in this situation is to act against marriage. [/b]
Wrong.

He gave up his marriage rights when he committed adultery....an act he is STILL committing right now. [/b]
No, it does not do so legally or within the eyes of any Church I know of. Simply because a spouse commits adultery, the marriage does not automatically end. If it did, there would be an awful lot of marriages that are over even while the spouses live together as married couples. Which would mean they are ALL committing adultery.

Violating the marriage vows does not end the marriage nor does it deny the marital rights of either spouse.

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#724219 - 03/18/05 07:26 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Dwain: "And if not anything that messy, how about simple lethal injection? That way, it would seem much more peaceful, almost like she just went to sleep. But we wouldn't even do that with her, because nobody wants to be the one to actually administer death to this innocent person. Nobody wants the responsibility of having her blood, even figuratively, on their hands."

I'd happily give her a painless morphine injection, if it were legal. I agree that it is hypocritical to have to let her starve. But this is the hypocritical insanity that the anti-euthanasia people have forced the medical profession to endure. The motives and emotions you cite are yours only, and are not properly attributed to others.

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#724220 - 03/18/05 07:36 PM Re: Terri Schiavo: Starving to death as we speak...
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
RZ, Dwain put it better than I did, but you are supporting a hypocritical catch-22.

I'm not saying you are hypocritical, but you say we should support him because he is married to her with all of the sanctimonious rights that accompany it, and yet his adultery throws everything marriage stands for back into the fire. How can that be? Just because he wears a wedding right does not mean nothing else matters.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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