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#730504 - 08/18/04 10:59 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:
The difference in our thinking Larry, and others. Is that you are feeding off the energy around you. We live in a world like you guys have described...by the way I never made it sound like the world was happy and nice, I know the harsh reality...and the problem is instead of trying to change things for the better you add to the problem by fighting guns with more guns. That is why we have such a problem in the U.S. right now with gun violence. Everybody thinks it is their answer to the situation. I would argue that their is really not much difference between the heroic gun wielder and the average criminal. Both think it's going to bring them control to a tense situation. Some criminal comes up on a women at a bank machine, he needs money, what faster better way of getting it then threatening the lady with her life...boom he's got control. Some sick perverted guy wants some women threatens her with his gun, now he's got control. Some gang member wants to prove himself, takes out a gun and waves it at his enemy to show his strength. And the normal gun owning citizen buys his gun just so that when he sees a dangerous situation he can take out His gun and have control. So the streets feel up with a bunch of people owning guns so that when they feel it's appropriate they can whip it out and quickly be
in control. A bunch of individual mind sets coming together to create a society where guns and armed power rule the streets...no wonder I feel left out.

I would also argue that the normal ever day citizen isn't even that far a way from turning into a criminal. many people that find themselves in desperate situations and a gun is the easiest way for them to get what they need. Crisis can strike at anytime and sane people can snap quickly. If somebody all of the sudden loses the money and feels the need to rob to protect their family...or shoot their neighbor cause he cheated with his wife a gun can be a quick way to "fix" the problem. I mean you can not deny road rage instances where two gun wielders cross each others path get upset at each other and one lunatic who gets impatient with the yelling contest pulls out a gun to prove his point then the other guy pulls out his in defense and you end up with an unnecessary death.

It all boils down to trying to have control over various situations that may come to pass and to feel in control you need to have a gun. For the criminal to feel in control he needs to have a gun and unfortunately the harsh reality is we live in a society that if you don't have a gun and you find your self in a scary situation you may lose. I don't argue nor deny that the world is scary place...but I do argue that to bring major change you have to start small, you have to start individually. I would rather live a little illogically and avoid the use of weapons or violence knowing I am above that.

I know it may be a bit obvious but a prime example of this sort of change is the effect Ghandi had when India gained it's independence from Great Britain. It was illogical, it was risky, but it not only paid off but showed the world how peace can prevail in the long run if everybody takes a stand. [/b]
Control?

Don't think so. More along the lines of using a tool to get out of a jam, and give myself a fighting chance.

Think the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto were looking for control, as they fought the Wermacht? Or did they just not want to go quietly into that dark night? I'm sure the SS would have appreciated the Ghandi-type route...
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#730505 - 08/18/04 11:00 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051

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#730506 - 08/18/04 11:13 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:What are your chances of seeing someone gunned down? [/b]
Practically nil.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:I've been there twice.[/b]
Why? I'm sorry I just don't understand how you've been witness to more than one shooting.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:What are your chances of being shot at?[/b]
Practically nil.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:Sucking linoleum is not my idea of a fun day, especially when you have little to fight back with. A good knifeman can take out someone armed with a firearm, but it is extremely difficult for the knife-wielder to survive the encounter if the person with the firearm is alert, and the weapon is at the ready.[/b]
Wow, I never give it a thought personally, but then I don't need to. Are there many places in the State where that's not the case?
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#730507 - 08/18/04 11:17 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I would rather live a little illogically and avoid the use of weapons or violence knowing I am above that.[/b]

So... are you saying that those who carry guns for their protection are beneath you?

Say this out loud a few times..... If I take the guns away from civil society, the only ones who will have guns are the criminals".

I know it may be a bit obvious but a prime example of this sort of change is the effect Ghandi had when India gained it's independence from Great Britain. It was illogical, it was risky, but it not only paid off but showed the world how peace can prevail in the long run if everybody takes a stand.[/b]

Wow..... India being such a peaceful place and all... I didn't know India had a zero crime rate!

The difference in our thinking Larry, and others. Is that you are feeding off the energy around you.[/b]

Snap, you seriously don't get it. I'm not "feeding" off any "energy around me". I just know that (guessing) 1 out of 20 people I meet have the potential to intend me or mine harm. I have the good sense to realize that if you take guns away from the civil and the sane, the only ones who will have guns are the uncivil and insane. And they have no problem using guns. The violent world you want to eliminate by eliminating guns from the equation will light up the night sky as thugs and criminals have a field day, like shooting fish in a barrel.

You aren't going to *get* everyone to take a stand, Snap. In even thinking that's possible, you prove my point, that you think everyone is like you. You comfort yourself by thinking you are "above it all", totally oblivious to the fact that just as you can cite example of innocent people being killed by a gun, there are just as many examples of people who survived because of a gun.
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Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730508 - 08/18/04 11:41 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Wow, I never give it a thought personally, but then I don't need to. Are there many places in the State where that's not the case?
There are bad places, and bad people, anywhere you care to go.

If I happen to be in those places, I'd just as soon be prepared. One never looks for trouble, and should avoid it at all costs.

But sometimes, even in the most unusual and seemingly safe places, trouble comes looking.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#730509 - 08/18/04 11:53 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:There are bad places, and bad people, anywhere you care to go. If I happen to be in those places, I'd just as soon be prepared. One never looks for trouble, and should avoid it at all costs. But sometimes, even in the most unusual and seemingly safe places, trouble comes looking.[/b]
If you were talking about the UK I'd say it sounds like paranoia. Are you saying that carrying a gun in the US is far more of a necessity than in the UK? What do you think of the fact that here, we are not allowed to carry guns?

What do you think of this statistic?

In 1996, 30 people were killed with handguns in Great Britain, 106 in Canada and 211 in Germany. In the U.S., 9,390 died this way. In Japan, 15.

Even bearing in mind the huge difference in population, the US still has a wildly disproportionate amount of gun crime.
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#730510 - 08/18/04 11:58 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
The U.S. does have more gun crime.

But Britian has a good bit of violent crime - it just doesn't involve firearms. It involves clubs, knives, bare knuckles.

And while the crime rate in the U.S has seemed to stabilize, despite a rapidly growing population, I think you'll find Britian's violent crime problem is still escalating.

Y'all just don't do it with guns...
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#730511 - 08/18/04 01:26 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Why am I not as afraid as you gun owners?

Sorry, but it almost sounds like paranoia to me.

Or, if you guys are right maybe I, and every other American, really am naive and I need more education, and then guns.

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#730512 - 08/18/04 01:45 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
No, everybody doesn't need a gun. Some folks are just ill-suited to weapons of any kind. Some are too quick to use them, and some are too slow, and some are so fumble-fingered they'd hurt themselves.

But on the whole, an armed society is a polite society. \:\)
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#730513 - 08/18/04 01:51 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Kenny,

I don't think the gun owners are afraid. There is a sense of security that comes from having a say in one's own destiny - even if it may turn out to be an illusion (i.e. the gun won't help when the volcano blows...).

There was a wonderful story on 20/20 of a man at home with his young son. A pair of teenage thrillseekers decided that they were going to kill the next people they met. They cased the house, cut the phone lines and one rang the bell.

The homeowner was suspicious - and picked up his Glock. He answered the door. The young man at the door told him a story about how he had some car trouble and wanted to use the phone. The guy offered to call for him, but wouldn't let him in.
The kid was just about to force himself in when the man moved the Glock to a place where the teenager could see what was in the man's hand.

- end of story -- except the kids just went to a very nice older couple's home and killed them...

I'm not saying for everyone...not so much fear, as choice...

Ken

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#730514 - 08/18/04 02:15 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 170
Loc: Brussels
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
What are your chances of seeing someone gunned down?

I've been there twice.

What are your chances of being shot at?

I've been there once.[/b]
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Some call it karma, others synchronicity.

It could be that the fact you carry a gun makes you more likely to encounter someone else carrying a gun.

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#730515 - 08/18/04 02:16 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
Two some-what related thoughts came to mind:

1. As Phykell mentioned, UK disallow gun ownership (except where explicitly licensed by the government, I believe). So do many other nations. Perhaps becuase of that, gun availability is extremely low and even the criminally inclined would have a hard time getting one -- hence leading to lower levels of destruction possessed by criminals. Sure, the general citizenry not generally allowed to own guns curtailed their power to defend themselves. But similarly, the scarcity of guns have also severely curtailed the destructive power of criminals. Does that, on the whole, make the society safer?

2. Jolly wrote: "No, everybody doesn't need a gun. Some folks are just ill-suited to weapons of any kind. Some are too quick to use them, and some are too slow, and some are so fumble-fingered they'd hurt themselves.
But on the whole, an armed society is a polite society."


On the first paragraph, the questions are (1a) Who determine what the criteria for gun-ownership privilege should be? (If we say some should have guns and others should not, than it becomes a privilege and not a right.) (1b) what should those criteria be? (2) Who should enforce the application of those criteria on the general populace?

On the second paragraph: Would an armed INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY also make a polite GLOBAL SOCIETY? Let every nation own WMD's and expect politeness in internatinal interactions, or reduce WMD the whole world over and limit the potential destructive power that can be possessed by any one country? (The three part questions asked above can be transfered here as well -- what the rules should be, who should should set the rules, and who to enforce it.)
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#730516 - 08/18/04 02:22 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
It could be that the fact you carry a gun makes you more likely to encounter someone else carrying a gun.[/b]


[smacks head] Doh! Well there you go! That's the answer, Jolly! Guns are like stink bait!.... [/smacks head]
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730517 - 08/18/04 03:04 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Kenny

You keep saying afraid and fear. This sublimal attempt at button pushing is what caused the other thread to explode. Fear is not in the equation. I do not explode, but I can push buttons a damn site better than you. Now gasp in surprise and post "what did I say????"

I seldom lock my car, and I never lock my doors. I refuse to live in a prison. If there were no one else involved and I had no cares for anyone, I probably wouldn't even carry a gun.

lb

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#730518 - 08/18/04 03:19 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
teachum Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/19/04
Posts: 2913
Loc: idaho
Larry - just had to say, "well said!"
_________________________
You will be 10 years older, ten years from now, no matter what you do - so go for it!

Estonia #6141 in Satin Mahogany

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#730519 - 08/18/04 03:34 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
CHAS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/03
Posts: 521
Loc: Ski Country of Colorado
Kenny edited his message about coming out, using the word "manly" and now we have a gun discussion.

Glad I am not a psychologist. :rolleyes:
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Mason & Hamlin A

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#730520 - 08/18/04 03:41 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I know, it sort of reminds me of a song. (remember - from Monty Python? \:D )

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay
I sleep all night and I work all day
He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day

/ G - CE7 Am7 / D D7 GC G / :

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch
I go to the lavat'ry
On Wednesdays I go shopping
And have buttered scones for tea
He cuts down trees...
He's a lumberjack...

/ G - C Am7 / D D7 G - / G - C A7 / D7 - GC G /

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I love to press wild flow'rs
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars
He cuts down trees...
He's a lumberjack...

I cut down trees, I wear high heels
Suspendies and a bra
I wish I'd been a girlie
Just like my dear papa
He cuts down trees...
He's a lumberjack...

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#730521 - 08/18/04 03:44 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Re: I'm A Very Manly Man - kathyk

hmmmm....

K

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#730522 - 08/18/04 04:02 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Huh?

[img]http://us.st8.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/wickedcoolstuff_1802_217864073[/img]

PS, Ax. You made some compelling points. I'd like to see our gun toters respond.

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#730523 - 08/18/04 06:19 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
Wow this whole thread has more twists and turns...
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#730524 - 08/18/04 06:25 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#730525 - 08/18/04 11:21 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 170
Loc: Brussels
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
It could be that the fact you carry a gun makes you more likely to encounter someone else carrying a gun.[/b]


[smacks head] Doh! Well there you go! That's the answer, Jolly! Guns are like stink bait!.... [/smacks head] [/b]
I know it may sound shocking to -to use your words- "immature" souls, but that's how it is.

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