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#730294 - 08/12/04 07:18 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
Kenny---too much---and to think you were in my house and that we ate lobster together!

Hey, I don't think that Mel is really Shant, I think that Shant is really Mel.

Sometimes I wonder if my computer or toaster oven is gay........

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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Piano & Music Accessories
#730295 - 08/12/04 07:20 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
I'm boring? !!! [/b]
Apple, boring you are not....

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730296 - 08/12/04 07:26 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by ericpianoboy:
Ok, hate to break it to y'all, but for being a bunch of music geeks you have made this serious confession immature... and kenny its a computer, no one cares, which has been said, i echo [/b]
First off, we're not all geeks. Speak for yourself.

Second off, Kenny is our friend. He understands exactly why this thread went to hell.

And yes, we do care. Just not about Kenny's sexual preferences. We care about Kenny. Stick around, we might decide to care about you too. But not if you're going to call us geeks first thing out of the shoot, or chastise us when you don't know the dynamics of the group.


We just can't get past the disco thing....... \:D ;\)
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730297 - 08/12/04 07:32 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
Larry, I miss the hat. I hate it when people change avatars....

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730298 - 08/12/04 07:33 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#730299 - 08/12/04 07:37 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by ericpianoboy:
Ok, hate to break it to y'all, but for being a bunch of music geeks you have made this serious confession immature... and kenny its a computer, no one cares, which has been said, i echo [/b]
Hey pianoboy, some of us actually know kenny and have met him.

We are all not just pixels you know.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730300 - 08/12/04 07:46 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
đanor Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 1232
Loc: Santiago, Chile
what the hell is this?


i think here's some work for member no.1
_________________________
ss ao lr ue dt on si .u dq ar no on ra qd u. is no td eu rl oa ss

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#730301 - 08/12/04 07:49 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
... do you think that anyone here cares?
Interesting... do you care? Why did you ask?
[/b]
No, I don't really care at all about kenny's, or anyone else's sexuality. I care very much about a person, his/her opinions, thoughts, cares, joys, worries, etc. A person's sexual orientation may have a secondary affect on those thoughts and opinions, but it remains that - secondary to what really makes up the person, IMO.

The reason for my asking is that it seems that often, a gay person is so worried about coming out to the world, and so fearful of being ostracized, that to a degree, they develop a chip on their shoulder and come out less as a simple matter of fact, and in more in a mood of defiance.

There's certainly reason for that attitude. There's obviously been enough gay-bashing, persecution and hatred over the years to justify that worry in general. My question to kenny was directed specifically as it pertains to making his announcement to the members of this forum. I hope that he understands that he is among friends here - even those who argue with him from time to time - and their appreciation of him here is based on who he is, as he has already established in his thoughts, and not on what he does in his bedroom, or with whom.

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#730302 - 08/12/04 07:58 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
[QUOTE]
We are all not just pixels you know.
[/b]
Hmm, seems to me I've heard that somewhere before...

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#730303 - 08/12/04 08:00 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
Well said Dwain.

But the fact is that even the most color/sex blind white males among us DO IN FACT notice the color or sexual oriantation, try as we might to be blind.

What to do?

Deny our own thoughts? Or own our own thoughts?

Try as I might, I DO in fact notice that a male is black (other than my son perhaps) or obviously gay. If I pretend that i do not notice I probably fall back into subtle patterns of discrimination.

If i acknowledge, yes this guy is black, this guy is gay, and own my own categories, I can rise above the stereotypes. And find the person.

Any white male who pretends that color or sexual orientation does not matter or is not noticed is in my mind deluding himself.

Maybe I am just way behind the rest of you guys.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730304 - 08/12/04 08:02 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
[QUOTE]
We are all not just pixels you know.
[/b]
Hmm, seems to me I've heard that somewhere before... [/b]
I HAD a secret....

jf

Dwain, it is good to have you back. Stay.
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730305 - 08/12/04 08:07 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
What about this one?
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730306 - 08/12/04 08:07 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Well, some of us are pixel-packin' mamas! \:D

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

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#730307 - 08/12/04 08:15 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
Any white male who pretends that color or sexual orientation does not matter or is not noticed is in my mind deluding himself.

Maybe I am just way behind the rest of you guys.

[/b]
Interesting. I do not see colour the same way as you do. Sexual orientation is a different matter- it makes me feel out place- foreign. But that is a learned behavior and my own personal demon.
I also make no bones about harbouring a inner distrust towards Muslims (I am sorry but that is my confession for the Forum to chew on).

But as for skin colour or race- nothing.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#730308 - 08/12/04 08:15 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country


_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#730309 - 08/12/04 08:16 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
What about this one? [/b]
Better....at leat you have a hat, but I think changing is no fair.

All of the negative stereotypes I have about you are somewhat mitigated by your cool avatar, which projects an image of knowlege and coolness.

You change it, you revert to who you really are (GOD FORBID!), subject to whatever mythology you can build up around the new image.

Trust me....

go back

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730310 - 08/12/04 08:17 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Our son could easily pass as a Muslim on first glance - in fact he never goes through the airport without the total frisk job.

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#730311 - 08/12/04 08:17 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I like the new, Larry. Change is good.

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#730312 - 08/12/04 08:19 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
All of the negative stereotypes I have about you are somewhat mitigated by you cool avatar, whoch projects an image of knowlege and laizzie fare.

You change it, you revert to who you really are, subject to whatever mythology you can build up around the new image.[/b]


But Jack.... you aren't supposed to *have* any negative stereotypes about me. You're supposed to be a progressive, open minded, tolerant liberal, remember?
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730313 - 08/12/04 08:19 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
i DON'T LIKE THE NEW lARRY. This change is not good.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730314 - 08/12/04 08:21 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I like it ...

less clothes ;\)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#730315 - 08/12/04 08:22 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Ok, ok.......

How about this one?..... \:D ;\)
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730316 - 08/12/04 08:23 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
no.... changed my mind.

I like the old one better... it's as if you (Larry) were the guy who would always take care of things and this one is just like another indian tooting his own horn.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#730317 - 08/12/04 08:23 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
All of the negative stereotypes I have about you are somewhat mitigated by you cool avatar, whoch projects an image of knowlege and laizzie fare.

You change it, you revert to who you really are, subject to whatever mythology you can build up around the new image.[/b]


But Jack.... you aren't supposed to *have* any negative stereotypes about me. You're supposed to be a progressive, open minded, tolerant liberal, remember? [/b]
Larry, we are all subject to stereotypes. The fact that I am more free of them than you is directly related to the fact that I recognize them. those of you who try to deny them are the ones who are truly blind.


jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730318 - 08/12/04 08:25 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
KathyK: Don't get me wrong its not the complexion of the skin, I have friends who are Maronite Lebanese, Assyrian Iraqis and non practising or fallen Shi'ite Iranians. All have a dark complexion one associates with a person form the Mid East. Its when I learn that they are practising Muslims that I begin to make absurd generalizations. I know it is morally wrong and work constantly to keep it in check.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#730319 - 08/12/04 08:25 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
He called you Kerry Larry.

Jack you are sounding scary..

g'nite
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#730320 - 08/12/04 08:26 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
JF, I didn't say that I don't notice or acknowledge a person being black, or gay. You're correct, pretending those differences don't exist would be delusional. But IMO, there's equal danger in denying the differences as there are in overstating them. My point: I'm thinking of two members of my staff. One is married, white, Protestant, from a small town upbringing. The other is black, divorced, mostly ambivalent about religion, and comes from a very urban background. Knowing me, it's probably no surprise that politics is a big topic of conversation in my office. So, want to take a guess as to the politics of these two? Who's a rightie, and who's a leftie? In fact, they're both conservative, and agree on most political issues, but if you allowed stereotypical attitudes derived from noticing their different appearance and backgrounds, you'd have been mistaken. In fact, most of the political dissent in our office comes from Val,the young, single, white, college-age female - but before you allow assumptions about her to creep in, realize that while a leftie, she is also a longtime member of the NRA and regularly heads down to her family's farm near Cincinnati for "shooting weekends."

So you think you know, but you just don't know. Same with someone who is gay. Certainly acknowledge that a person is gay, but in the end, just what do you do with that knowledge? Are you supposed to treat that person differently, in a way that you assume "gays want to be treated?" In other words, knowing a person's sexual orientation does not automatically pigeonhole a him, or give anyone any "actionable" information about either who he is as a person, or how I relate to him.

I say, "notice, but it doesn't really matter." You seem to be saying, "notice, and admit that it matters in your head, but rise above it." Sounds to me like we're saying the same thing, in different terms. Either way, if we're both adhering to our stated philosopies, we end up on the same square.

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#730321 - 08/12/04 08:28 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
....and work constantly to keep it in check. [/b]
It's not enough to ignore it. Colorblindness (in the best sense of it) requires work and awareness.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730322 - 08/12/04 08:31 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
Dwain, perfectly stated. I agree.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#730323 - 08/12/04 08:33 PM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Jack are you admonishing me for being honest?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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