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#730474 - 08/18/04 12:21 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
You're a presumptuous sort aren't you, gryphon!?[/b]
No, not at all. At least I try not to be.
 Quote:
I don't take responsibility for protecting myself!?

How small minded.[/b]
I'm sorry. I was only thinking about what you wrote:

Q: What would happen if someone confronted you?
A: Do you mean with the intent to harm me? If so, I would pray for them, and myself.[/b]

Perhaps that is what you meant, that if you were confronted by someone who was assaulting you or another you would pray for them and you. And that is a valid answer. I would choose a different tactic.

You then describe how you got mugged three times but you weren't killed. Congratulations. What would you have done if your muggers had grabbed your daughter?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#730475 - 08/18/04 12:21 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
No, Kenny, fear is not an emotion in my life, period. Fear is not why I choose to take responsibility for myself and others. I can only ask why you choose not to defend yourself and others? [/b]
When did Kenny say he did not defend himself or others? All he has said is that he does not have a gun and sees no reason to own one.

There are lots of ways to defend oneself without resorting to violence or the threat of violence or the willingness to use violence.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#730476 - 08/18/04 12:29 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
JA, you have posted a white bread message. There is type but little substance.

There are lots of ways to defend oneself without resorting to violence or the threat of violence or the willingness to use violence.[/b]

Scenario:

You are with your daughter. You are approached by a guy with a knife. He wants your car and your daughter. How do you defend yourself and her without the willingness to use violence?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#730477 - 08/18/04 02:06 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
The problem is we have this build up of individual mind sets that end up leading to a violent and chaotic society. If everybody thought like Gryphon, that in order to be safe and keep others safe we need more force and bigger weapons, then of course we will live in a weapon saturated, violent world.

Americans have an interesting way of thinking. In order to feel safe they need to be powerful. When ever somebody is asked why they bought their SUV number one answer is so that they can keep them and their family safe. Now you may think that in order to keep them and their family safe all they could just be a safer driver be fully attentive, obey the rules, and drive with care but no they would rather drive like lunatics but in a bigger vehicle that way they destroy whatever they hit or whatever hits them.

People with guns claim they get them for safety so that in case that very rare scenario occurs they may be able to destroy or threaten the enemy. Pulling out a gun is an easy way to say "back off I'm more powerful then you. I could kill you right now." So maybe you like that...maybe you like the ability to threaten somebody so easily and to show off your power. The problem is when two of you meet each other. Two people who think a like. One using the powerful weapon to obtain what he wants and the other using it to threaten back.

So now we have dug ourselves into a hole. All around the world we have people who feel the only way to get something they want whether it be money, or women, or respect is to whip out a gun and threaten somebody with it. Then we have those who buy a gun so they can whip it out and threaten back.

So now what? because like Gyrphon pointed out their are rare occurrences when the logical explanation is to defend yourself through use of violence. I'd like to think people are civilized enough to be talked out of a situation, but in a world with guns all around us words are not nearly as powerful or effective.

My opinion is if I were in that situation and the only choice to defend my son or daughter would be to fight back sure, I'd go down swinging. But I will do everything in my power to avoid violence and things and ideas that promote violence. Too many times people die because of sudden out bursts of anger and the closest thing to them was their knife or their gun. Many violent situations are easily avoidable if people keep their egos in check. Finally I respect all people who truly would turn the other cheek and refuse to fight back. It sends a much more powerful message. It's a tough stance to take in todays violent world but the more people refuse to use violence as a method of safety, protection and power the safer we would all eventually become.

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#730478 - 08/18/04 04:29 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Snapapple
Beautifully put.

Bernard, Yikes, that sucks.
I count my blessings I have not been attacked like that!
Glad you are not only physically okay but mentally okay.
I'm glad you haven't become like the thugs or haven't adopted a Gryphon-like view of the world.

Snapapple, that *really* was well put.
I usually think of myself as being well spoken.
I take my hat off to you and bow deeply.

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#730479 - 08/18/04 05:08 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Snap_apple,

You may find this hard to believe but the vast majority of gun owners consider violence to be the option of last resort and are not given to waving guns around at the slightest provocation. Believe it or not, "gun owner" and "unhinged Maniac" are not necessarily synonymous.

Reading through this I have to think that many of you have lived remarkably sheltered lives. A mugging can be a harrowing experience but 99% of the time you give the guy your money and you go your separate ways. However, like many things in life, it's those one percenters that are going to ruin your day. Many of you are just one a**hole away from a complete attitude adjustment and there are a few among you who would not defend yourselves even if your life, literally (for my friend Eusebius ;\) ) depended on it. That's okay with me as far as it goes but don't try to force your world view on to me. I *will* take the life of anyone who threatens to do violence to me or my family if necessary.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#730480 - 08/18/04 06:03 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Snapapple

You are living in a lilywhite world and are wearing rose-colored glasses. You do not realize that the whole world is not like the one you live in, and some people have to function in that other world.

You are painting a legal, trained, armed, individual who is in an authoritive position as a Wild West gunslinger who pulls his weapon at the drop of a hat.

I have been armed for 27 years, and have been in literally thousands of confrontational situations. I have only (as you say) whipped it out on two occasions and both times when threatened with another weapon that was drawn first. I have faced people armed with less lethal weapons several time and didn't feel the need to whip it out.

Let me ask you, have you ever knelt beside a co-worker that had just been shot twice with deer slugs and had no vital signs. This was a young man with two kids and even though he did survive, he will be wearing a bag the rest of his life. If you had been there you may look at life a little differently.

I could live in your or Kenny's world, but I chose this lifestyle because I am damn good at what I do. I don't recall where I criticized anyone here for their lifestyle choice, why criticize me.

lb

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#730481 - 08/18/04 06:21 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:I have been armed for 27 years, and have been in literally thousands of confrontational situations.[/b]
Wow, where do you live or what do you do? I've never been armed, and have only ever been in a handful of confrontational situations. So what can be the difference between us?
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#730482 - 08/18/04 06:41 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Quote:
"You are living in a lilywhite world and are wearing rose-colored glasses. You do not realize that the whole world is not like the one you live in, and some people have to function in that other world."

Enough said?

lb

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#730483 - 08/18/04 06:59 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Lilywhite?
No
Sheltered?
Hardly

Smart?
Yes
Careful?
Yes

I am not criticizing you.
I respect you and your choices.
Please respect mine.

It is a very fascinating subject:
"Do you defend yourself, and if so, how?"

47 years, not one confrontation.
You, thousands of confrontations.

Hmmmmmmmm

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#730484 - 08/18/04 07:08 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb: Quote:
"You are living in a lilywhite world and are wearing rose-colored glasses. You do not realize that the whole world is not like the one you live in, and some people have to function in that other world."
Enough said? lb [/b]
Is that in answer to my questions? Personally, I've travelled to many different countries, admittedly mainly on holiday, but the UK has its fair share of violence and "dodgy" areas, and I've never felt like I needed to carry a gun. Seriously, if you live in a place where you feel you need to carry a gun, the solution is simple - move. I know I would! ;\)
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#730485 - 08/18/04 07:21 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Snapapple, that *really* was well put.[/b]

I disagree. I think it's some of the worst logic I've ever read. For example:

The problem is we have this build up of individual mind sets that end up leading to a violent and chaotic society. [/b]

The very first sentence sets up a false premise. It assumes that the reason we have violence is because we have people trying to defend themselves. It is the other way around - the reason we have people trying to defend themselves is because we have violence.

The problem some of you are having in understanding this is that you have the idea that the whole world is like you. It's as if you think the attacker was a normal thinking, civil human being who wouldn't have harmed anyone had it not been for the guns available to him - like you think having a gun *made* him choose to be a criminal. You think it is the one defending himself who is irrational, yet the attacker can be rational, if only you talk to him and put your ego out of the way. You contort logic in ways I can't even fathom - for example:

Now you may think that in order to keep them and their family safe all they could just be a safer driver be fully attentive, obey the rules, and drive with care but no they would rather drive like lunatics but in a bigger vehicle that way they destroy whatever they hit or whatever hits them. [/b]

Clearly you just don't get it. The SUV owner who says he bought it to keep his family safe is presented as the *cause* of his need for safety..... *he* is presented as the bad driver who endangers his family instead of the *other* guy he is actually trying to protect himself from. That is totally warped. No matter how "fully attentive" the SUV driver is, no matter how well he "obeys the rules", no matter how much "care" he drives with, he will most likely meet on average 1 drunk driver out of every 20 cars coming toward him, and in a typical local trip with his family, one woman putting on makeup, 5 talking on cell phones not looking where they're going, a couple of mothers distracted by screaming kids in the minivan, a truck driver on pills, and one or two cars with mechanical problems on the verge of sending the car out of control. So he's driving a tiny little vehicle that you greenpeace guys think he ought to have his wife and 3 kids crammed into, he's obeying all the rules, driving with care, fully attentive to what's going on around him, and one of these *other* people slams into him. This is where you don't get it - you painted the SUV driver as the danger on the road because you were trying to smear the guy who says he bought it to keep his family safe, and you failed to understand that it is the *other guy* that represents the danger.

Here's another example of you simply not understanding the situation:
Pulling out a gun is an easy way to say "back off I'm more powerful then you. I could kill you right now." So maybe you like that...maybe you like the ability to threaten somebody so easily and to show off your power. The problem is when two of you meet each other. Two people who think a like. One using the powerful weapon to obtain what he wants and the other using it to threaten back. [/b]

You just assigned the mentality of a deranged criminal to the sane man wanting only to protect himself. You did so because you have this warped idea that people who carry guns for their protection are a bunch of trigger happy mental defects who get off on whipping their guns out to show how tough they are. Once again, you are looking at life upside down and backwards. The opposite is true. It is the *criminal* mind that finds gun play to be a game, a way of showing how "powerful" they are - which is actually one more good reason for putting guns in the hands of mature minded, sane citizens.

I can assure you for instance, that if lb and Gryphon were to meet each other and both were carrying a concealed weapon, they would most likely spend the entire time talking about politics, the forum, work, life - and not *once* would they "whip out their guns" to "show each other how powerful they are". Why? Because they aren't carrying those guns for that purpose, and they aren't concerned that one or the other of them plans to harm the other. When would the guns come out? When someone walked up and tried to force them to hand over their money, or did something to harm one of them, or anyone else around them, for that matter. You, for instance. If you were sitting somewhere near them and someone attacked you, I have no doubt they would both run to your rescue, and if necessary, pull their guns on the attacker, shooting him only if necessary. While you were sitting there telling yourself how superior you are as a "civil human being" to them by being unarmed, and as you tried to talk a deranged criminal who decided to kill you into a rational discussion of the finer points of being a law abiding citizen of the world, living in peaceful harmony - they would both risk their own safety to protect you from two things - the attacker, and your own pollyanna thinking. But you would *never* see either one of them trying to "out cowboy" the other. Now - if two criminal minded fools with guns get into a bit of foolish gunplay in the manner you describe, well - maybe we'll all be lucky and they'll end in a draw - both of them shot dead. Two less criminals on the streets. That however, is *not* what we're talking about here. We're talking about honest law abiding, mentally competent people who carry a gun to protect themselves from those who *do* act the way you describe. Those people will always be able to get and carry guns, because they aren't going to follow the rule of law anyway. You advocate removing guns from the hands of those who only want to protect themselves and paint them as the deranged, egotistical criminal mind types, without ever once understanding this is not only a warped view, your wishes leaves those who *would* act the way you describe with guns and the rest of civil society with no way to defend themselves against them.

So now what? because like Gyrphon pointed out their are rare occurrences when the logical explanation is to defend yourself through use of violence. I'd like to think people are civilized enough to be talked out of a situation, but in a world with guns all around us words are not nearly as powerful or effective. [/b]


I'd like to think everyone could lay around on couches while dozens of naked virgins fed us grapes too, but that isn't reality. Your logic has a huge flaw in it - you assume that everyone in the world is like you.. that everyone could be talked out of things, that everyone is willing to sit down and discuss their feelings with you. Apparently the worst example of anger or hostility you've ever seen is when someone from your circle of friends loses his temper for a moment. Let me be the one to break the news to you - the world is *full* of people who are terminally angry - who have no respect for life, no concern for what you think of them, no desire to talk, no ability to turn inward and reflect on their "feelings", and would just as soon kill you as look at you. *Those* are the people the rest of us have to protect our families from, not some touchy feely puss who got into a tizzy for a moment.

My opinion is if I were in that situation and the only choice to defend my son or daughter would be to fight back sure, I'd go down swinging.[/b]

with a bullet in you, and your son or daughter *still* in danger. Smart move.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#730486 - 08/18/04 07:28 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Kenny
"I am not criticizing you.
I respect you and your choices.
Please respect mine."

Have I said a single word about your choices? While you have been openly critical of mine.

I defend myself by trying to diffuse chaotic situations, and I am very good at it, it is how I made my living a lot of the time. If this approach fails, I use whatever the situation demands and I do not shirk in the slightest.

Company reorganizations, Strike breaking, union negotiations, and sometimes even daily management of a manufacturing company can be volital situations. This work has to be done by someone. You are though sheltered compared to me.

lb

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#730487 - 08/18/04 07:40 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Larry,

Very well said.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#730488 - 08/18/04 07:44 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Sheltered has a condescending sound.

I made different job choices than you.
A factor in my choices is avoiding confrontation with people.
I'll bet you make more money than me though.
You chose your job.

Yes somebody "has" to do it.
You don't.

I am not criticizing.
Somebody here told me and Bernard we should defend ourselves, and suggested owning a gun would be a good idea.

I don't think I need a gun.
That's all.
I'm not trying to take yours away.

Just don't tell me that you have to have one; you have no choice.

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#730489 - 08/18/04 08:02 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Kenny

Money has never been a factor in my work. Satisfaction in being one of the best that I do outweighs pay any day of the week. I have had many oportunities to make more money under less stressful conditions. I didn't take these positions because I couldn't do them, I didn't take them because I felt there were more capable people than I for those jobs.

Somebody has to do these jobs, and no it doesn't have to be me, but why not. I do not need to have a gun either, but I chose to.

lb

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#730490 - 08/18/04 08:25 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eusebius:
Posted by Larry:

 Quote:
Maybe as you grow and mature into an adult you'll learn to see the whole picture.
By all means, share those parts of the picture I seem to be missing. Where in the Bible did Jesus use force to protect his own safety? [/b]
Jesus posted Peter at the gate to the Garden of Gethsemane with a sword, so as to be not disturbed.

Next...
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#730491 - 08/18/04 08:35 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Confrontations?

When passing through life, those who make waves are moving the boat. Very few things are accomplished in life, without some level of confrontation. Most interactions, thankfully, are at a very low-key level, and do not produce life-threatening scenarios.

But I understand exactly what lb is saying. I recently had an employee and her estranged husband engage in a shouting match in the middle of the workplace. When an armed man, wearing body armor, is screaming in the middle of your work place - that will get your attention. Now, the gentleman was a federal officer, so you downgrade the threat level a mite, but you still feel the hair go up on the back of your neck.

Now, one can intervene, and defuse the situation, and that is what happened. But what about that 1 in a thousand situation, where everything goes bad, and hubby decides to kill his wife, and half of the office while he's at it?

If I'm murdered, I at least want to be fighting when I go down....
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#730492 - 08/18/04 08:51 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:...But what about that 1 in a thousand situation, where everything goes bad, and hubby decides to kill his wife, and half of the office while he's at it?[/b]
Those are terrible odds. Surely there's less chance of it happening than 1 in 1,000!
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#730493 - 08/18/04 09:08 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
What are your chances of seeing someone gunned down?

I've been there twice.

What are your chances of being shot at?

I've been there once.

Sucking linoleum is not my idea of a fun day, especially when you have little to fight back with. A good knifeman can take out someone armed with a firearm, but it is extremely difficult for the knife-wielder to survive the encounter if the person with the firearm is alert, and the weapon is at the ready.

The only weapon that equates with a firearm, is another firearm. Or, as they said in the American Old West, "God didn't make men equal, Colonel Colt did." \:\)
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#730494 - 08/18/04 09:23 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
Kenny and others...PLEASE read Larry's post very carefully. Most of us law biding citizens that obtained our guns legally have no desire to use them in any fashion other than defense and sport. It is the criminals that cannot be reasoned with, not us.

That being said keep in mind that come Armageddon I would shoot you in the head for a bottle of water and a 10 year old bag of Doritos. ;\)

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#730495 - 08/18/04 10:01 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
You guys are talking to someone else, not me.
Yes, there is a gun control issue raging in America.
I am not arguing for either side of the issue.
You don't have to talk to me as if I am one of them.
Don't lump me into that group.
Actually, how about not lumping me into *any* group.

I don't care if you have a gun.
You don't have to justify it or explain it.
You are obeying America's laws, just like the woman getting an abortion.
Who cares if anyone like a law?
A law is a law.

I am only responding to others who say *I* need a gun, and especially cause I'm gay.
I don't feel I need or want a gun.

I am also saying that a person can make life choices that keep them safer.
Like not stopping on the hiway when someone is seems to have car trouble.
Choosing a job that involves less confrontation.
Not letting people into my house who knock on my door, etc.

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#730496 - 08/18/04 10:20 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Sometimes you have no choice when it comes time for a confrontation.

Bill Cosby's son would have gladly given his killer his car, but the killer wanted no witnesses. If you are an unarmed man in close-range gunfight, there is only one outcome.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#730497 - 08/18/04 10:22 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
Kenny,

I don't think you need a gun, nor do I think that I am doing you any service by owning many. Enjoy your peaceful life. You are very fortunate to not have a job or have had any life experiences that would drive you to purchasing one.

Though now I am a bit confused because t.v. has taught me that you gay guys like men that are packing heat! Was Will and Grace wrong?! \:D


God bless and be careful.

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#730498 - 08/18/04 10:26 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
I don't watch TV, but I suspect TV isn't a very good source of information.

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#730499 - 08/18/04 10:26 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Eusebius Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 725
Loc: Maryland
Posted by Jolly:

 Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Eusebius:
Posted by Larry:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe as you grow and mature into an adult you'll learn to see the whole picture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By all means, share those parts of the picture I seem to be missing. Where in the Bible did Jesus use force to protect his own safety?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus posted Peter at the gate to the Garden of Gethsemane with a sword, so as to be not disturbed.

Next...
That didn't answer the question, but thanks for trying.

As I said, I'm not necessarily advocating complete pacifism in the face of violence, but that is the course I think Jesus took. And how strange that it is primarily the Christians on this forum who are so unwilling to put their faith in prayer, as Jesus did, and instead engage in wholly unChrist-like behavior.

Is your faith in the power of prayer so shaky?
_________________________
"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." - Santayana

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#730500 - 08/18/04 10:30 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Think Peter took along that sword to pick his teeth? Think Jesus had him guard the gate with a scowling demeanor, and little else?

Sometimes a prayer demands wings.

Is your faith so shaky that it cannot stand the Truth?
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#730501 - 08/18/04 10:38 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
One in a hundred, one in a thousand, one in a million, who knows what the odds are? It is not the hundred or the thousand or the million, but the one that is bad. It just takes one.

I have seen people come to the work place armed with bats, machetes, knives, bare fisted and with guns, with the intent to exact revenge on someone in the company, myself included.

I once discharged a second shift boiler operator for multiple violations of sleeping on the job. The first night on the job for his replacement, the guy came back and stuck a shotgun loaded with deer slugs through a security fence and shot him twice. The man that got shot wasn't the intended victim, I was. I normally would have been there but I got delayed by less than 5 minutes. The guy decided that since he came there to shoot someone, he might as well shoot someone and popped a poor young kid.

I took a break from work one evening and went to a local restaurant for dinner. A man wielding a 10” Rambo knife who said he was going to kill me for laying off his wife at work interrupted my dinner. The gentleman was the president of the local Lucifer's Laymen motorcycle club, and he looked and dressed the part. The stupid thing about this was his wife was laid off for only 2 days along with 75% of the employees because of our annual inventory. The guy had a long record of assaults and had even plea-bargained a murder charge down to involuntary manslaughter, and was on probation for that at the time. If I had been sitting with my back to the door, or my 38 hadn't made a more convincing argument than his knife, things may have turned out different. He did serve 30 days for the incident.

I discharged an employee that went berserk and was destroying a million dollar machine with a 36” pipe wrench. Upon his discharge he walked across the street to a neighbors porch , took down their swing and hung himself with the chain. He could have just as easy went the other way and decided to take someone with him.

I could give you 10 or 20 more pages of the same thing from over 40 years. The world isn't as lily white as some of you think. Read the damn papers, this happens multiple times every day in the U.S. and it is increasing. I don't know what the odds are, but they are getting worse.

lb

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#730502 - 08/18/04 10:51 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
The difference in our thinking Larry, and others. Is that you are feeding off the energy around you. We live in a world like you guys have described...by the way I never made it sound like the world was happy and nice, I know the harsh reality...and the problem is instead of trying to change things for the better you add to the problem by fighting guns with more guns. That is why we have such a problem in the U.S. right now with gun violence. Everybody thinks it is their answer to the situation. I would argue that their is really not much difference between the heroic gun wielder and the average criminal. Both think it's going to bring them control to a tense situation. Some criminal comes up on a women at a bank machine, he needs money, what faster better way of getting it then threatening the lady with her life...boom he's got control. Some sick perverted guy wants some women threatens her with his gun, now he's got control. Some gang member wants to prove himself, takes out a gun and waves it at his enemy to show his strength. And the normal gun owning citizen buys his gun just so that when he sees a dangerous situation he can take out His gun and have control. So the streets feel up with a bunch of people owning guns so that when they feel it's appropriate they can whip it out and quickly be
in control. A bunch of individual mind sets coming together to create a society where guns and armed power rule the streets...no wonder I feel left out.

I would also argue that the normal ever day citizen isn't even that far a way from turning into a criminal. many people that find themselves in desperate situations and a gun is the easiest way for them to get what they need. Crisis can strike at anytime and sane people can snap quickly. If somebody all of the sudden loses the money and feels the need to rob to protect their family...or shoot their neighbor cause he cheated with his wife a gun can be a quick way to "fix" the problem. I mean you can not deny road rage instances where two gun wielders cross each others path get upset at each other and one lunatic who gets impatient with the yelling contest pulls out a gun to prove his point then the other guy pulls out his in defense and you end up with an unnecessary death.

It all boils down to trying to have control over various situations that may come to pass and to feel in control you need to have a gun. For the criminal to feel in control he needs to have a gun and unfortunately the harsh reality is we live in a society that if you don't have a gun and you find your self in a scary situation you may lose. I don't argue nor deny that the world is scary place...but I do argue that to bring major change you have to start small, you have to start individually. I would rather live a little illogically and avoid the use of weapons or violence knowing I am above that.

I know it may be a bit obvious but a prime example of this sort of change is the effect Ghandi had when India gained it's independence from Great Britain. It was illogical, it was risky, but it not only paid off but showed the world how peace can prevail in the long run if everybody takes a stand.

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#730503 - 08/18/04 10:56 AM Re: I'm A Very Manly Man
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:

 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
I can't hit a barn with a handgun.[/b]
[/b]
a common error...standing outside the barn. Go inside and take a shot. You'll find that your accuracy is much improved.

Best wishes.

Ken

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