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#740988 - 11/21/04 02:51 PM NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
JoeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 671
Loc: Northern California
From http://www.iran-daily.com/1383/2145/html/
 Quote:
NEW YORK, Nov. 21--Invading Iran "would be a catastrophic mistake," The New York Times warned Saturday in an editorial, which deemed recent administration statements reminiscent of statements made in the run-up to the war in Iraq.
"We hope president Bush has learned enough from the Iraq adventure to understand the dangers of using flawed intelligence to create a false sense of urgency about a national security threat," the daily said, AFP reported.
"Invading Iran, a country of nearly 70 million people, would be a catastrophic mistake," it said.
"Stop us if you've heard this one before. The Bush administration creates a false sense of urgency about a nuclear menace from a Middle Eastern country. Hardliners talk about that country's connections to terrorists. They portray European diplomatic efforts to defuse tensions as a feckless attempt to appease a rogue nation whose word can never be trusted anyway. Secretary of State Colin Powell makes ominous-sounding warnings about new intelligence, which turns out to be dubious," the editorial said.
The Times called it a "welcome step" that Iran committed to freezing its nuclear enrichment activities after German, British and French diplomatic work.
"Iran has long been a target of the hawks in the administration, who are undoubtedly feeling their oats after the election," the Times said.
"That is how president Bush rushed the country into an unnecessary conflict with Iraq in his first term, and we have been seeing alarming signs of that approach all week on Iran" and "there is no military solution here", the daily said.
In an interview broadcast November 14, Powell said the United States has no intention to change Iran's regime and has no plans to invade the nation neighboring Iraq, where 140,000 US troops are stationed.
Does the Times know something we don't? Powell said "the United States has no intention to change Iran's regime and has no plans to invade" so why the editorial? Should we invade Iran if we get good verified intelligence data that Iran is continuing to develop nuclear weapons?
_________________________
"How, Monsieur, you care not for music? You do not play the clavecin? I am sorry for you! You are indeed condemming yourself to a dull old age!" - Fouquet

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#740989 - 11/21/04 03:33 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Googlism Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
No way. The U.S. is already short on troops for Iraq. What of Afghanistan? What of North Korea? If the U.S. invades Iran, expect not only heavy casualties, but decreased morale and recruitment.
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace

____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing

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#740990 - 11/21/04 05:06 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
In other news, something strange happened to the intelligence reform bill. It got killed by the conservatives, who claim it would damage the ability of the military to wage war, even though the bill was supported by President Bush.

As for whether the reforms actually would damage military preparedness, one of the Republican proponents of the bill in Congress is an ex-Marine, and he says the reforms wouldn't hurt the ability of the military to conduct a war, that it's all about turf and budget control at the Pentagon.

It's clear that the Defense Department was not in favor of the reforms, but there are two schools of thought about what happened. The first is that Bush and Cheney truly wanted the bill passed, but that Rumsfeld and the Defense Department subverted them. The second (this comes from a Republican Congressman, by the way) is that the White House didn't really want the bill passed, and that Bush supported it publicly but was privately happy that it didn't get passed.
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If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#740991 - 11/21/04 05:16 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
JoeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 671
Loc: Northern California
 Quote:
No way. The U.S. is already short on troops for Iraq. What of Afghanistan? What of North Korea? If the U.S. invades Iran, expect not only heavy casualties, but decreased morale and recruitment.
In addition to all of the above, the administration is lacking in the political capital to drum up support at home for an invasion, much less getting the rest of the world to go along. If (and that's a big if) the Iranians really are continuing with nuclear weapon development, then Israel will eventually step in, perforce alone, to stop them. This could lead to a real mess.
_________________________
"How, Monsieur, you care not for music? You do not play the clavecin? I am sorry for you! You are indeed condemming yourself to a dull old age!" - Fouquet

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#740992 - 11/21/04 05:30 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
iainhp Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 803
Loc: San Diego
An interesting article that I came across:

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3522.html

 Quote:
A radical fundamentalist government which sponsors global terrorism gaining nuclear capability is a horror that cannot be allowed to happen. If terrorists are willing to blow themselves up in cars packed with explosives or strap on "bomb belts" in order to kill innocent civilians in restaurants and buses, why would they balk at using nuclear weapons in the same way? If they believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife for killing a few children on a schoolbus, what reward do they think they'll receive for wiping an entire city off the map? It's no longer a matter of if, but when. If we allow Tehran to create nuclear weapons, how long will it be before we wake up to find that a nuclear bomb has destroyed a major city like Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Paris, New York, London or Washington DC? Every place on Earth that terrorists have struck, they would have attacked with nuclear weapons if it had been possible. Next time, it might be.

What can be done to stop this threat? If we think we have the time -- and that depends entirely on our intelligence services, which have not exactly had a good track record in the Middle East -- we can attempt to impose sanctions. Most of Iran's oil exports are shipped through the Straits of Hormuz, which can be blockaded with just a small percentage of America's naval force. With the bulk of its oil income halted, the Iranian economy would collapse, but not overnight. Will we have the determination to keep up the blockade long enough? Other oil-exporting nations would undoubtedly halt their exports to any participating nations, and gas and oil prices would rise higher than ever before. (One has to wonder whether this is why President Bush refuses to release oil from the nation's emergency reserve.) The only other option is to strike Iran's suspected nuclear facilities before they can enrich enough uranium to build a weapon, although knowing their locations depends on our intelligence services as well.
Frankly Bush is going to be vilified no matter what he does - the only saving grace is Iran not having any bomb making ambitions (which seems unlikely). Or Israel takes care of it for him.

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#740993 - 11/21/04 06:40 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Googlism Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
Hence, World War III would begin.
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace

____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing

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#740994 - 11/21/04 07:45 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Kentcouncil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Great Lakes
Absolutely right: all the proposed military options for Iran stink.

But... Iran with nuclear weapons?! There are very few scenarios more frightening than this.

I hope multilateral embargoes and, if necessary, naval blockade will suffice if the Iranians break their promises yet again, though even these actions, aside from not enjoying the support of Europe and China, are risky and potentially destabilizing. However, if it comes to military action, Israel will make the first move. It has done it before, and will likely attract international condemnation (except from the U.S.) if it does so again. But the Israelis view this as a matter of their very survival, and this view is probably justified.

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#740995 - 11/22/04 06:35 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"But... Iran with nuclear weapons?! There are very few scenarios more frightening than this."

Well said.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#740996 - 11/22/04 12:16 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kentcouncil:
However, if it comes to military action, Israel will make the first move. It has done it before, and will likely attract international condemnation (except from the U.S.) if it does so again. But the Israelis view this as a matter of their very survival, and this view is probably justified. [/b]
Depends where the Iranians set up their facilities. Iran is a large country and Northern Iran is very mountainous. Facilities could be in well fortified alpine regions similar to NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain or any number of Swiss military installations in the Alps.

If Iran is pursuing a secret nuclear weapons programme then a credible political/military alliance will have to take the necessary measures against the country. Iran cannot be allowed to develop a nuclear programme that would enable it to maintain nuclear weapons of any sort. It is not only unacceptable but it is quite unthinkable.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#740997 - 11/22/04 12:25 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by iainhp:
Or Israel takes care of it for him. [/b]
that too seems highly unlikely. \:\(
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justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#740998 - 11/22/04 12:25 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I am wondering if this situation might call for another Bush Doctrine that will lay out just what will happen if Iran doesn't give up the program. It would have to spell out a pretty horrific military strike, probably nuclear. I agree that a nuclear Iran is something that can't be allowed to happen. As someone else said, Iran has no need for nuclear power. They want nukes because they see that so far it is "kid gloves" for Korea and they want the same feeling of security, power and dominance. They won't make the Iraq mistake of keeping their developmental and testing facilities all in one place. If they get them, they may well decide to use them locally or they might somehow come into the possession of terrorist elements and be used here.
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#740999 - 11/22/04 01:18 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"any number of Swiss military installations in the Alps"

I thought the Swiss didn't have a standing army.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#741000 - 11/22/04 01:22 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Check again, Switzerland has a fully functioning military, primarily made up of national service reservists, with all the necessary fortifications needed to defend an alpine nation.

http://www.vbs-ddps.ch/internet/vbs/en/home/rund.html

Armed to the teeth neutrality. On call 24/7
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#741001 - 11/22/04 04:06 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Who do you think carries the Swiss Army Knife (besides a lot of American McGyver wannabes).
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#741002 - 11/22/04 04:13 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11675
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
I am wondering if this situation might call for another Bush Doctrine that will lay out just what will happen if Iran doesn't give up the program. [/b]
Bush has stated flat-out, no equivocating, that we will not allow Iran to develop a nuclear bomb. Period.

My guess is Israel will destroy their facilites first.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#741003 - 11/22/04 07:05 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Posted by Gryphon:
 Quote:
My guess is Israel will destroy their facilites first.
Yeah, well if they've developed at least one working one by that time, you can fully expect them to retaliate in no time flat against Israel putting the U.S. in an extremely untenable position of feeling obligated to go to bat for the latter's survival.

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#741004 - 11/22/04 07:17 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Yeah, well if they've developed at least one working one by that time, you can fully expect them to retaliate in no time flat against Israel putting the U.S. in an extremely untenable position of feeling obligated to go to bat for the latter's survival. [/b]

Make no mistake about it. If Iran initiates a nuclear attack against anyone all bets are off. There would be no one in the world community that would not support any action necessary to bring them to heel. However, we certainly don't want things to go that far.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#741005 - 11/22/04 07:20 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11675
Loc: Okemos, MI
I'll make you the same value bet I made Netizen. A CD of the other's choosing, value less than $20, against whether Iran nukes Israel or not. Deal?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#741006 - 11/23/04 04:43 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
Iran announced yesterday they were stopping their enriched uranium program.

Care to send him that CD now?
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#741007 - 11/23/04 07:27 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11675
Loc: Okemos, MI
First of all I was referring to rebuilder's saying that Iran will nuke Israel. Keep up. And second of all, referring to your most recent post:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1100939304175

The IDF believes that Iran is running a secret nuclear weapons program in parallel to the one it had agreed this week to temporarily suspend.

Senior military sources told The Jerusalem Post that in the worst-case scenario Iran could produce a nuclear bomb within two years.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#741008 - 11/23/04 07:53 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
pianoseed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 884
Loc: here
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"any number of Swiss military installations in the Alps"

I thought the Swiss didn't have a standing army. [/b]
_________________________
pianoseed

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#741009 - 11/23/04 07:59 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
pianoseed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 884
Loc: here
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"any number of Swiss military installations in the Alps"

I thought the Swiss didn't have a standing army. [/b]
In Switzerland every male between the ages of 19 and 50 is in the army. He is required one year of military service whereupon he is issued an automatic weapon and 400 rounds of ammunition which he keeps in his home. The weapons and ammo are sealed and inspected every year. If the seal is broken the person in possession fined. He also must pay for the maintenance and repair of the weapon.
There is a good reason they have not had a war in 400 years.
_________________________
pianoseed

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#741010 - 11/23/04 08:02 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
pianoseed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 884
Loc: here
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"But... Iran with nuclear weapons?! There are very few scenarios more frightening than this."

Well said. [/b]
I can remember when we said the same thing aabout Red China.
_________________________
pianoseed

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#741011 - 11/23/04 10:15 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
I am wondering if this situation might call for another Bush Doctrine that will lay out just what will happen if Iran doesn't give up the program. [/b]
Bush has stated flat-out, no equivocating, that we will not allow Iran to develop a nuclear bomb. Period.

My guess is Israel will destroy their facilites first. [/b]
But I wonder if it might be more effective if the consequences were spelled out. Because Iran's secret program (which I definitely think exists) is probably spread all over and hidden, I'm not sure Israel *can* take them out.

BTW, I think if Iran dropped a nuke on Israel it would be the end of Iran. Israel would probably lay down enough nuclear bombs to destroy 75% of the population. Scary thing for Israel is that it wouldn't take many nuclear bombs or missles to destroy the entire county - it is so small. However, I'm sure any of the other Arab states, if they had the capability, would do something like this (in the name of Allah) and wouldn't mind volunteering the Palestinians as collateral damage.

I'm just wondering if there could be something spelled out that was so awful to contemplate that Iran and any other nation would drop all their plans lest the United States put the doctrine into action. I think China is much more pragmatic when it comes to their nuclear arsenal, whereas the Arab nations seem to have a track record of miscalculation coupled with a willingness to let their people suffer for other goals. It wouldn't shock me to see Iranian clerics agree that if they could destroy Israel while only losing 75% of their people (that would require a boat load of virgins!) that it would be not only acceptable, but honorable.
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#741012 - 11/23/04 10:22 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Maybe the doctrine should be something akin to the following:

William Munny from Unforgiven -

"All right, I'm coming out. Any man I see out there I'm gonna kill him. Any son of a bitch takes a shot at me, I'm not only going to kill him, I'm going to kill his wife...and all his friends...and burn his damn house down."

I would add something about killing his dog...
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#741013 - 11/23/04 10:23 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"The IDF believes that Iran is running a secret nuclear weapons program in parallel to the one it had agreed this week to temporarily suspend."

The head of the IAEA tells quite a different story.

-----

"Iran appears to have frozen major nuclear activities in an effort to persuade the world that it does not intend to build nuclear bombs, the head of the United Nations nuclear watchdog agency said Monday.

"'I think pretty much everything has come to a halt right now, so we are just trying to make sure that everything has been stopped,' Mohamed ElBaradei, the director of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told reporters in Vienna.

"He added that operations at the Isfahan uranium conversion facility in Iran had now ended, and that the agency was in the process of applying seals to shut down operations at the country's facilities.

"Dr. ElBaradei also said the atomic energy agency 'hopefully' would be able to verify that Iran was honoring its commitments to freeze its uranium enrichment activities by the time the agency's 35-nation governing board begins meetings with Iran in Vienna on Thursday about how to deal with the nuclear program."
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#741014 - 11/23/04 10:40 AM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Quirt,

Unfortunately, I think you could substitute the word "North Korea" for "Iran" and have ElBaradei say these things 10 years ago. Guess where we are now? I don't put too much stock in ElBaradei's statement. I sure hope he is right this time.

Chris
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#741015 - 11/23/04 12:04 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Another point is that the Iranian political scene sways between the secular politicians and the theocrats. The secular politicians want Iran to reclaim the revolution from the Ayatollahs and join the rest of world. The Ayatollahs want the nuclear and military capability so that the Islamic Republic becomes a regional power. Both distrust their Sunni Arab neighbours.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#741016 - 11/23/04 01:06 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"Unfortunately, I think you could substitute the word 'North Korea' for 'Iran' and have ElBaradei say these things 10 years ago."

ElBaradei has only been the head of the IAEA for 7 years. He was with the IAEA before that, but I'm not aware that he said anything about North Korea before he became Director General.

More to the point, he's in charge of the agency that we, as a government, have put our trust in to oversee these matters. We seemed to like him when we were claiming that Iraq wasn't giving the weapons inspectors appropriate access. You can't pick and choose when you like the IAEA and when you don't.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#741017 - 11/23/04 01:32 PM Re: NY Times: Iran Invasion Would Be Catastrophic
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Albaradei was certainly head of the IAEA while North Korea was in the process of defying the agreed framework. He did not seem to pick that up. Whether or not we "liked" him while inspectors were being stiffed in Iraq would seem irrelevant.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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