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#750132 - 04/01/05 10:47 AM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
A few points...

1. From what I have heard, at one point or another, 5 neurologists had examined Ms. Schiavo. Three diagnosed PVS, two did not.

2. There are many people, some who can actually function in society, with a scan that would appear as bad as Ms. Schiavo's.

3. The slippery slope argument has much merit in this case, the primary evidence being the Dutch Model.

It was a very short step (less than 10 years) between the first cases of euthanasia in adults, to the first cases of euthanasia in infants. Current rates for infants are climbing, but are hard to pin down, as the procedure is still technically illegal. Some estimates are 1 out of every 100 live births, although that is probably too high.

At any percentage, however, the Dutch have now made the active step of ending life at a very early age, based on diagnostic data. They are killing what they consider to be less than desirable humans.

In real terms, what is the distinction between that practice and suddenly redefining what constitutes a less than desirable human?
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#750133 - 04/01/05 10:52 AM Re: Schiavo...the last word
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Jolly, your gripe is that you don't like the trial court's decision. But, it was examined under a magnifying glass a dozen or more times, by very conservative judges at several junctures. Like it or not, the judge did his job well - damn well, to stand up under that kind of scrutiny. Disatisfaction with the outcome of one case is hardly cause for sweating over judicial activism.

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#750134 - 04/01/05 11:34 AM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Jolly, your gripe is that you don't like the trial court's decision. But, it was examined under a magnifying glass a dozen or more times, by very conservative judges at several junctures. Like it or not, the judge did his job well - damn well, to stand up under that kind of scrutiny. Disatisfaction with the outcome of one case is hardly cause for sweating over judicial activism. [/b]
A couple of points...

1. There were more than 19 reviews of the Schiavo case. There was only 1 finding of fact.

Are you aware that the two court appointed guardians of Ms. Schiavo both[/b] had doubts about the motives of Mr. Schiavo, and that Judge Greer took their opinions into consideration, and then rejected them?

2. The Schiavo case is only the tip of the iceberg. Resentment over judicial activism has been simmering in the country for a lot longer than this case has been debated.

As has been pointed out to you on multiple occasions, the legislative branch holds the trump card over the judicial. For over 50 years, the judicial branch has enjoyed power unparalleled in our history.

It is time the pendulum swung back...
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#750135 - 04/01/05 12:29 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
A couple of points...

1. There were more than 19 reviews of the Schiavo case. There was only 1 finding of fact.[/b]
Technically, that is correct, but...many additional "facts" were presented to the reviewing courts as part of the argument to reopen the case, so the appeals did not just involve matters of law. Also, the third GAL (appointed pursuant to Jeb's law) made very detailed findings, which would have been reviewed and adopted by a court if the law itself had not been found unconstitutional.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Are you aware that the two court appointed guardians of Ms. Schiavo both[/b] had doubts about the motives of Mr. Schiavo, and that Judge Greer took their opinions into consideration, and then rejected them?
[/b]
Not true. I have read one of the reports so i can only speak to that one. The GAL noted there was an INHERENT conflict in any similar situation where the decision maker stood to inherit money and thus cautioned the judge to apply a clear and convincing standard, which the judge did. The report did not express doubts about Michael in particular.

jf
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#750136 - 04/01/05 12:34 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
A couple of points...

1. There were more than 19 reviews of the Schiavo case. There was only 1 finding of fact.[/b]
Technically, that is correct, but...many additional "facts" were presented to the reviewing courts as part of the argument to reopen the case, so the appeals did not just involve matters of law. Also, the third GAL (appointed pursuant to Jeb's law) made very detailed findings, which would have been reviewed and adopted by a court if the law itself had not been found unconstitutional.


jf [/b]
Not only that, but the Schiavos and their Randall Terry financed legal team had ample opportunity to find every possible appealable error in the lower court's trial, and there were none. That in itself speaks volumes about the quality of Judge Greer's trial of the case.

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#750137 - 04/01/05 12:41 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Not only that, but the Schiavos and their Randall Terry financed legal team had ample opportunity to find every possible appealable error in the lower court's trial, and there were none. That in itself speaks volumes about the quality of Judge Greer's trial of the case.

Ok, now we know that the case had no merit, simply because of who was writing the checks.

If I am not mistaken, there was a lot more money in the pot, than just Mr. Terry's. As I am also sure that Mr. Schiavo has footed all of his legal bills...

When dealing with attorneys, one must take care not to become too exasperated with them, since they see things as being fine, as long as they are legal, not necessarily if they are right.

Judge Greer's ruling may have been entirely legal.

It also may have been entirely wrong.
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#750138 - 04/01/05 12:43 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
My point is, that weren't lacking for funds to put together their A-Team

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#750139 - 04/01/05 12:44 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"Judge Greer's ruling may have been entirely legal.

It also may have been entirely wrong."

When you find a system of justice that can guarantee the right outcome in every single case, you be sure to tell us about it, Jolly.
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#750140 - 04/01/05 12:47 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"Judge Greer's ruling may have been entirely legal.

It also may have been entirely wrong."

When you find a system of justice that can guarantee the right outcome in every single case, you be sure to tell us about it, Jolly. [/b]
White Throne Judgement.

See ya there.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#750141 - 04/01/05 12:47 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Jolly, I really don't want start rehashing the merits of the case, but I just have one burning question for you. Did you read the GAL report to Jeb Bush?

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#750142 - 04/01/05 01:03 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Judge Greer's ruling may have been entirely legal.

It also may have been entirely wrong. [/b]
Then stop griping and change the system. I am sure you are not advocating anarchy and lynch mobs....

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#750143 - 04/01/05 01:33 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"Judge Greer's ruling may have been entirely legal.

It also may have been entirely wrong."

When you find a system of justice that can guarantee the right outcome in every single case, you be sure to tell us about it, Jolly. [/b]
White Throne Judgement.

Jolly,

\:D

See ya there. [/b]

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#750144 - 04/01/05 05:42 PM Re: Schiavo...the last word
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Thumpy: "I have participatory knowledge which is founded in a love relationship. ... This is something that you will never understand until you yield."

I've heard of lonely children having Imaginary Friends, but I would hardly call this proof of the existence of a god.

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