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#756126 - 12/21/04 01:51 PM Re: Ethical?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
I don't think a rule needs to be made........ people should know better. [/b]
edit as usual): I did like your post Matt. This is not big deal.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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Piano & Music Accessories
#756127 - 12/21/04 01:51 PM Re: Ethical?
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
How 'bout them Steelers?

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#756128 - 12/21/04 01:52 PM Re: Ethical?
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:


...IMHO, of course.

[/b][/QUOTE]

I like your sense of humour. \:D
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"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#756129 - 12/21/04 01:54 PM Re: Ethical?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
terrific analogy, matt. it says it all.

if the owner of the restaurant doesn't want an exodus to another restaurant, he needs to provide what people want. in this case, civility and moderation. the owner has not stepped up to the plate to provide what some people are seeking. and so, they go to another restaurant. if frank is worried about that, then he can pay attention to how his services are meeting (or not) the needs of the regulars.

nobody can force anybody to prefer a certain restaurant. we've all got free will here.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#756130 - 12/21/04 01:59 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
The questions have no similarity to the question I asked.

Let us shift your scenario a bit...

Mrs. B frequents a busy restauraunt, and writes down the names of whomever comes through the door. At some point in time, she becomes less than enamored of the restaurant, and decides to move on. However, she then procedes to mail all of the customers that still frequent the old restaurant, and tries to persuade them to leave. Sometimes this mail uses stamps that she swiped off of the counter, while the old restaurant owner wasn't looking.

Things are much better at the new restaurant (even though they may not be), she says.

Is this ethical?

Or, to put aside analogies, and get down to the nut-cuttin', is it proper to use the posted email addresses in our profiles, and the PM function of this board to recruit members to frequent a competing forum?
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#756131 - 12/21/04 02:01 PM Re: Ethical?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Or, to put aside analogies, and get down to the nut-cuttin', is it proper to use the posted email addresses in our profiles, and the PM function of this board to recruit members to frequent a competing forum? [/b]
Until you provide any proof of such behavior, the question is not valid for discussion.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#756132 - 12/21/04 02:03 PM Re: Ethical?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
why would that be so?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#756133 - 12/21/04 02:03 PM Re: Ethical?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Larry:

 Quote:
Excuse me, but it had *everything* to do with it. To quote from my post:

"On the one hand, this is a non issue from the standpoint that no one "owns" a poster, and everyone is free to visit whatever site they wish to visit. They are also free to recommend another site if they choose. [/b]I don't see a problem with that at all."
Larry?

You're not quoting from the post to which I was replying. You're quoting from your earlier post. Your post I referred to (the one Matt mentioned) is the one where you've wandered way off the subject and just spewed a pointless personal attack. Thank goodness I copied your post into mine so there wouldn't be any confusion! \:\)

Anyway, it's settled. People here at PW can "recommend" another site if they choose.

RECOMMEND: To praise or commend (one) to another as being worthy or desirable; endorse:

But some here (a tiny minority, actually, based on this thread) believe it is unethical to "solicit" someone to join another site:

SOLICIT: To seek to obtain by persuasion, entreaty, or formal application.

So you can "recommend" that someone check out another site, but you'd better not be too persuasive about it, 'cause then you're "soliciting." I'm glad we cleared that up! \:\)

copyright Dictionary.com
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#756134 - 12/21/04 02:06 PM Re: Ethical?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
why would that be so? [/b]
Because I don't believe this to be a thread about pure conjecture. It smacks way more of accusation, veiled and couched in the theoretical though it might be.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#756135 - 12/21/04 02:06 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Or, to put aside analogies, and get down to the nut-cuttin', is it proper to use the posted email addresses in our profiles, and the PM function of this board to recruit members to frequent a competing forum? [/b]
Until you provide any proof of such behavior, the question is not valid for discussion. [/b]
I beg to differ.

Are all questions of ethics not open to discussion until they have been breached?

If you'll go back and read what I wrote, you'll find I referenced a specific poster. I also said that she may not have been referring to this particular board when she made aforementioned statement. Or she might have been doing so.

Either way, it is a queston of ethics.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756136 - 12/21/04 02:09 PM Re: Ethical?
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Oh god...please pm me when we talk about where we place the angels on the head of a pin...

This thread proves why Seinfeld was a success - a thread that really goes up to the line of being about "nothing."

The Christmas holiday is upon us...probably a little overwraught and this gives an outlet for the frustration - but frankly, when you read this a month from now, you'll wonder what this was all about.

God bless you all and to all a good night...

Ken

P.S. I can post some URL's to tropical fish sites...

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#756137 - 12/21/04 02:11 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Yes, but several of us want to know the facts concerning this alleged solicitation. Will you or will you not provide them?

 Quote:
If you'd like to wade through a few posts on the other board, please do so.
**A-HA!!** You just solicited me!

Was it good for you too? [/b]
Context madam, is everything.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

This what I said:
 Quote:
If you'd like to wade through a few posts on the other board, please do so. EHpianist was the one that caught my eye. And to thoroughly absolve Elena, she may not have even referenced this board in particular - it may have been another she was talking about.

That does not change the essential premise of this thread-starter, however.
Now, is that a solicitation as I have framed it within this thread?
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756138 - 12/21/04 02:12 PM Re: Ethical?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
so a bunch of people come here, find out they are like-minded and become friends. there is a debate about what the tone of this site should be, and who is enhancing and who is detracting from that tone.

one faction wins the debate; they get the site the way they want it. another faction decides they'd like to continue their friendship at a different site, one that is more conducive to the kinds of conversations they'd like to have.

so sue 'em, jolly. you can't have your cake and eat it, too. :p
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#756139 - 12/21/04 02:12 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
why would that be so? [/b]
Because I don't believe this to be a thread about pure conjecture. It smacks way more of accusation, veiled and couched in the theoretical though it might be. [/b]
Then state your facts, sir.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756140 - 12/21/04 02:13 PM Re: Ethical?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
If you'll go back and read what I wrote, you'll find I referenced a specific poster. I also said that she may not have been referring to this particular board when she made aforementioned statement. Or she might have been doing so.[/b]
Then, why don't you ask that person privately if she thinks there was a breach of ethical or proprietary standards. What you or think is of little consequence.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#756141 - 12/21/04 02:13 PM Re: Ethical?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Jolly, Matt is correct that this is kinda silly without some facts.

But this bit:

 Quote:
Sometimes this mail uses stamps that she swiped off of the counter, while the old restaurant owner wasn't looking.
I know you mean well, but this is just plain bizarre in this context. Stealing stamps is *theft.* If on the other hand the customer has the owner's explicit permission to use the stamps, then there is no theft.

Gee, I was a member of a group that met monthly at Starbucks. Eventually, someone suggested we move our meetings to Cosi because Starbucks was too crowded. She made this suggestion (or "solicitation") right there while we were sitting at Starbucks sipping our coffee. Are you saying this was inappropriate? Really?

Maybe we should have wrestled her to the ground and called headquarters in Seattle. ;\)
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Vote For Cindy!!

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#756142 - 12/21/04 02:14 PM Re: Ethical?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
And yes, I do think some folks here should stop acting as though they are devising and executing Frank's business plan. 'Cause they're not. And all they're doing is causing (more) trouble with a bunch of unsubstantiated paranoia. IMHO, of course.

I do think you should consider expressing your concerns about solicitation directly to Frank. Maybe he'd agree and would post a new rule or some such.[/b]

Let me try this again, then. As I've already said most clearly, people are free to post wherever they want to, they are free to recommend other sites if they want to, no one "owns" the right to a poster. There's nothing at all wrong with recommending another site to someone. I agree with Matt that the marketplace works. I'm not trying to "devise and execute" anyone's business plan, I'm simply telling you what purpose forums are designed to serve. I don't care who goes where, who reads what, or how they heard about it, unless it is because of someone trying to convince people to *stop* posting somewhere, offering them another place in return for it. That's not nice.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#756143 - 12/21/04 02:14 PM Re: Ethical?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Then state your facts, sir. [/b]
It's my gut instinct, which seldom misserves.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#756144 - 12/21/04 02:15 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
so a bunch of people come here, find out they are like-minded and become friends. there is a debate about what the tone of the site should be, and who is enhancing and who is detracting from that tone.

one faction wins the debate; they get the site the way they wanted. another faction decides they'd like to continue their friendship at a different site, one that is more conducive to the kinds of conversations they'd like to have.

so sue 'em, jolly. you can't have your cake and eat it, too. :p [/b]
Somebody won? They must have forgot to tell the plebian masses in the hinterlands.

And...if one has his cake, it stands to reason he shall also consume it. :p
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www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756145 - 12/21/04 02:16 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Then state your facts, sir. [/b]
It's my gut instinct, which seldom misserves. [/b]
Thank you for stating you have no facts to base your conjecture upon.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756146 - 12/21/04 02:17 PM Re: Ethical?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Thank you for stating you have no facts to base your conjecture upon. [/b]
Nor have you. Even.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#756147 - 12/21/04 02:20 PM Re: Ethical?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:


one faction wins the debate; they get the site the way they want it. another faction decides they'd like to continue their friendship at a different site, one that is more conducive to the kinds of conversations they'd like to have.

[/b]
I wonder why they keep coming in for the special of the day? \:\)

...except athykay - boy she is a woman of principle... really sticks to her guns.. She has not been back. You gotta give her credit for that.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#756148 - 12/21/04 02:20 PM Re: Ethical?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Jolly,

I don't wish to go to that other site and try to find these mystery posts there. I just don't. If you know where they are, why don't you just post them?

I just don't see how anyone can really and truly answer your question without knowing what went on, exactly. That was the point of your question, right? To get an answer? Why be so coy about this?
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

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#756149 - 12/21/04 02:21 PM Re: Ethical?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
you know...one thing bothers me... I never thought I'd be arguing with Matt... never in a million years.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#756150 - 12/21/04 02:22 PM Re: Ethical?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
edit
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#756151 - 12/21/04 02:25 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Thank you for stating you have no facts to base your conjecture upon. [/b]
Nor have you. Even. [/b]
I never stated I had facts. I have said so repeatedly.

Does that make the premise of this thread any less valid?
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www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756152 - 12/21/04 02:28 PM Re: Ethical?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
I just don't see how anyone can really and truly answer your question without knowing what went on, exactly. That was the point of your question, right? To get an answer? Why be so coy about this?
I'm a lot of things, but coy ain't one of 'em.

I've already stated in this thread that a post from Elena started me thinking about the ethics of solicitation. I posted those questions.

They are questions of ethics, and are not an attempt at coyness.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#756153 - 12/21/04 02:30 PM Re: Ethical?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
...except athykay - boy she is a woman of principle... really sticks to her guns.. She has not been back. You gotta give her credit for that.[/b]

I do. Oh, how I do. And I hope she's able to maintain her "principles"......
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#756154 - 12/21/04 02:35 PM Re: Ethical?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Well! I never saw so many knickers in a twist since... well! I never saw so many knickers in a twist! ROFLMAO! \:D \:D \:D
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#756155 - 12/21/04 02:35 PM Re: Ethical?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
[QUOTE]I never stated I had facts. I have said so repeatedly.

Does that make the premise of this thread any less valid? [/b]
Was one of your members stolen? Honestly, I give up.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of people here who have developed off-line (or at least off-public board) friendships and/or correspondences with each other. Within that framework, I feel there is absolutely nothing, NOTHING, improper or unethical about suggesting a different online meeting place. Friends suggest things to each other all the time.

You have repeatedly posited the notion that someone "may have" been 'soliciting' other (apparently random) PW members to join them somewhere else. I find the implications of the assertion accusatory in and of themselves.
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Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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