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#761323 - 11/09/03 11:46 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Sorry Renauda, but I disagree.

Was TomK's prose extreme? Yes, one can make that point. However, the larger point he was trying to make was one a lot more important than his style of prose.

Racism, bigotry, and discrimination can be an attitude of both the minority, and the majority.

And I can speak from experience on this board, that ain't nobody around here wearing a halo. Witness many of the remarks made about Christian Fundamentalists.

So don't be too quick to castigate somebody for pointing out, and trying to rectify the obvious - even if the method was judged extreme by the intended recipient.

I'm with Larry on this one.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#761324 - 11/09/03 11:56 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Then let us agree to disagree. There was no need to use a 2 X 6 plank to draw attention when a feather would suffice- no, there are no halos in this crowd and I am the last to suggest that one hovers over my head. I am with JA on this.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761325 - 11/09/03 01:02 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Some insane thing has destroyed our friendship

la pomme \:\(
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#761326 - 11/09/03 01:12 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Look I don't like to explain myself:

But I said what I said because I felt benedict, pique and Ariel were being unfair to apple, and I was explaining to them through metaphor what it's like to be called something unjustly. If they wanted to call someone an anti-Semite on the basis of a line and a half of nonsense, that's fine--but then allow me to express my disapproval of their bullying tactics after three pages meanness, misreading and bad judgments.

Hay, be nasty but don't be surprised if it comes back to you. Look, apple isn't a day to day Internet warrior like some of us. benedict, pique and Ariel are bigger and stronger and came down on her very hard. And I came down on benedict hard. And in the end apple isn't a cry baby; benedict is.

Now as to the point about "cultural heritage." It's not something that I have vast amounts of sympathy for. People are people, nothing more. Want to be a Jew fine, or a Catholic or a Fundamentalist, fine. It doesn't matter to me what you like or dislike or what your parents are/were, or where you were born. I'm not interested. I'm interested in who you are and what you say, period. I'm not interested in that fact that benedict and pique and Ariel are Jews, I couldn't care less.

For what it's worth, my four grandparents were killed by the Nazis, and two uncles, not for being Jews; they were killed for pretty much no reason at all. They weren't people just of my race or religion but people close to me (though I never met any of them.) Anyway, they're dead and gone and life moves on and in a way it doesn't really matter what happened to them, we're here now.

benedict, grow up and stop being a cry baby, recounting every little hurt and sorrow. Be careful of the sensibilities of others and I will be careful of your sensibilities. Fair?

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#761327 - 11/09/03 02:41 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
tom,
are you actually engaging in a sincere discussion here? in the past it has been virtually impossible to determine if you are or you aren't (usually aren't, i think). but, if you are speaking sincerely now, i will respond to some of what you wrote.

as i and the others have written already--please read more carefully!--we did not accuse apple of being anything--justly or unjustly. we tried to make her more conscious of what her words meant, and the attitudes they betrayed. to the contrary, i specifically said we do NOT think she is an anti-semite. why is it so hard for this to be communicated? we think she said some things that implied things that probably she doesn't really believe. we tried to make her more aware of the implications of what she wrote. we did not draw conclusions about her character AT ALL.

 Quote:
Now as to the point about "cultural heritage." It's not something that I have vast amounts of sympathy for. People are people, nothing more. Want to be a Jew fine, or a Catholic or a Fundamentalist, fine. It doesn't matter to me what you like or dislike or what your parents are/were, or where you were born. I'm not interested. I'm interested in who you are and what you say, period. I'm not interested in that fact that benedict and pique and Ariel are Jews, I couldn't care less.
aha, so you are an idealist then, too? because what you are describing, tom, is an ideal world. in the real world, people who are discriminated against or even murdered because of their heritage, don't have a choice about being aware of who they are by birth. they can't afford your egalitarian attitude, or they do so at their peril.

 Quote:
Be careful of the sensibilities of others and I will be careful of your sensibilities. Fair?
tom, that is an empty promise if i ever heard one. when in the history of your brief tenure at piano world have you ever been careful of anyone's sensibilities? come on!

yes, you can be funny and entertaining, but it is more often than not at the expense of someone's sensibilities, if not feelings.

do you think you can find a way to be fun without being mean? why not take it on as an interesting challenge.
_________________________
piqué

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#761328 - 11/09/03 02:46 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Some insane thing has destroyed our friendship

la pomme

--------------------
apple

apple, why not unstop your ears for a minute and pay attention? nothing has destroyed your friendship with any of us. i feel confident in speaking for benedict and ariel, as well as myself, that we do not think you are anti-semitic. we still consider you a friend. we were trying, as diplomatically as we knew how (until others jumped to your imaginary defense with battleaxes), to make you understand what you had written, and how it reads, and what it means.

i remain confident that that was the right thing to do. the battle that swarmed afterwards and around that really had nothing to do with you.

peace, apple. i don't believe any of us bear you any ill will, and i hope you can understand what we were trying to communicate. it was not a personal attack against you. it was a reaction to the words you wrote. they are not the same thing.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#761329 - 11/09/03 03:34 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by pique: tom, that is an empty promise if i ever heard one. when in the history of your brief tenure at piano world have you ever been careful of anyone's sensibilities? come on![/b]
Dear pique,

Always. I'm mindful of those sensibilities. I try to be mindful of who's a warrior and who's not. I try to be mindful of the exact context of what's being said. If you want to parse and dissect a line and a quarter of whatever by someone that usually post recipes and poems and into three pages of rant, you can. But, I just may take their side.

If you hurt someone's feeling to make a point, I just may hurt your feelings (or at least benedict's--made him cry!) If you want to make a philosophical point on someone's back, you can--but I will make my point on your back, with no philosophical saddle.

And this: I've held out my hand in friendship to benedict on numerous occasions and it's always been rejected--so what's a boy to do? On the other hand--since our former "altercation", and subsequent "friendship" I believe I've always treated you with respect. (OK, There was that "popcorn" thing.)

Anyway, watch out for the little guy. Watch out for the non-players. Do you think I would be involved in this anti-Semitism thing if you didn't whack apple? I'd be cheering you on. You be nicer--I'll be nicer. I'm not interested in issues as much as I am in people.

Don't like it, sue me. \:D

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#761330 - 11/09/03 03:57 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Dear benedict:

 Quote:
it was not a personal attack against you. it was a reaction to the words you wrote. they are not the same thing.
[/b]
Love,

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#761331 - 11/09/03 03:59 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
apple, why not unstop your ears for a minute and pay attention? nothing has destroyed your friendship with any of us. i feel confident in speaking for benedict and ariel, as well as myself, that we do not think you are anti-semitic. we still consider you a friend. we were trying, as diplomatically as we knew how (until others jumped to your imaginary defense with battleaxes), to make you understand what you had written, and how it reads, and what it means.[/b]


Why don't you unstop your own?

All *I* was trying to do was make you understand that Ariel had put words in her mouth that gave her statement a whole new meaning, and the three of you jumped her as if she'd said it the way Ariel stated it. Yet you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that you might be wrong. You insist it be taken the way *you* want it to be taken, and that's the end of it.

So I think I have it now:

1. You can make fun of "Fundamentalists" here all you want.
2. You can make fun of Christians in general here all you want.
3. You can slam "colored people" here all you want.
4. You can make fun of Southerners here all you want.
5. You can make fun of Conservatives here all you want.
6. You can make fun of Injuns all you want.


7. Just don't say anything that upsets a Jew.


I understand it now. Thank you.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#761332 - 11/09/03 04:35 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
pique:

Your problem has been explained to you from the particular to the general.

Apologize to apple and we can all move on.

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#761333 - 11/09/03 04:49 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
we hope that we can turn hearts with our words, and it is so bitterly disappointing sometimes when we see that there are a lot of hearts in the world that have no intention of turning.[/b]
What makes you think you have the market cornered on ideas, thoughts, and words? What makes you think the person on the other side of the argument doesn't feel the same way you do about turning hearts?

TomK is right, you're all a bunch of drama queens.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761334 - 11/09/03 08:28 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country

I ain't no queen......
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#761335 - 11/09/03 09:51 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Larry

Where is your sensitivity? I can't believe you used a frog in this thread.

I am sure you didn't mean anything by it though. \:D \:D

lb

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#761336 - 11/10/03 05:20 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
I ain't no queen...... [/b]
I didn't mean you. :p
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761337 - 11/10/03 11:25 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Benedict,

You disappoint me. Though I respect your decision, there is no other way to say this. If, you are passionate about your convictions, as I believe you are, you would not leave but would stand your ground.

I can't help but think that even if you don't like what others say, or the insults which I agree are all too frequent, it is always enlightening to know what other people are thinking. You get that on this forum, warts and all.

I do hope that you will reconsider. I will very much miss your presence if you don't.

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#761338 - 11/10/03 11:53 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I'm with Benedict on this. The exchange of differing points of view is great, in theroy, but the constant barrage of insults and nastiness detracts so completely from the positive flow of ideas that it's easy to just throw up one's hands and say, "why bother?" Who needs the abuse? \:\(

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#761339 - 11/10/03 12:33 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
B. wasn't always the innocent victim. In the "Evil" thread, I gave a sincere answer to the question. B. immediately called me a hijacker because he disagreed with my belief.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#761340 - 11/10/03 01:52 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
I'm with Benedict on this. The exchange of differing points of view is great, in theroy, but the constant barrage of insults and nastiness detracts so completely from the positive flow of ideas that it's easy to just throw up one's hands and say, "why bother?" Who needs the abuse? \:\( [/b]
very well said.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#761341 - 11/10/03 02:15 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
the coffee room is not for sensitive souls, nor left-leaning ones…the constant barrage of insults and nastiness detracts so completely from the positive flow of ideas[/b]
Once again we hear about how this is a place where only conservatives are welcome and another liberal voice is felled. Liberals are outnumbered and dissent is not tolerated. Of course this is unfounded. Look at the regular Coffee Room crowd, where do you go after Jolly, Larry, and gryphon? I don't think JBryan identifies with the hardcore right wing. And KlavierBauer espouses as many liberal points of view as he does conservative, and eloquently states his positions and reasons for both.

On the other hand, it seems to me the "outnumbered" liberal voices consist of pique and John Andrew and Ariel and bcarey and kathyk and Nina and thammer and Renauda and Lazy Pianist and benedict and pdolce and Steve (the baseball guy) and Bernard and...just to name a few. And I didn"t even mention Shantinik. He's in his own world. So your statements about how this is only a conservative forum won't hold water.

It seems to me that you're the ones who can't stand dissent. You're all one-sided.

When someone disagrees with pique, it is "them" who can't see that she is correct, that she only wants what is right, that they won't turn their hearts to "her" point of view.

Benedict said he was offended by some remarks made here. But he doesn't see that maybe "we're" offended when he equates the United States with Nazi Germany as he has openly done here. Or the fact that he condemns the "culture of American violence" and the fact that firearms ownership is a protected right in the US. France has a 66% higher crime rate than the United States. (6,941/100,000 France as opposed to 4,160/100,000 US if you're interested), yet it is the US that is condemned. He pronounces judgment against perceived anti-Semitism here, but he sits among a very real and much more pervasive anti-Semitism that is present in Europe in general and France in particular. Perhaps his time would be better spent working against the real evils in the world instead of the imagined ones here.

No, look at the many previous comments from some here concerning the right or Christianity and you'll see “insults and nastiness” as well. There's no need to go into a detailed litany of people like benedict did. Just because we disagree with someone on a topic or two doesn't mean we don't like them. There's nothing better I'd like than to have a good steak dinner with kathyk or Ariel or bcarey, swap stories over a bottle or two of wine, talk about our families and music. Maybe even about politics or religion. But because we have different opinions doesn't mean we aren't or can't be friends. After a rough start, I think Ariel realizes this, and I would hope that kathyk and bcarey and everyone else does as well. As for myself I've said a few things that I've regretted later. Not necessarily the content of the post, but sometimes the tone. And I've even on occasion apologized for the way I might have said something, but not for my views. And I don't expect anyone else to, either, but I do expect them to be able to back up what they say, especially if they accuse someone else of something.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761342 - 11/10/03 02:21 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
I'm with Benedict on this. The exchange of differing points of view is great, in theroy, but the constant barrage of insults and nastiness detracts so completely from the positive flow of ideas that it's easy to just throw up one's hands and say, "why bother?" Who needs the abuse? \:\( [/b]
This from the person who was going to "kick butt"? ;\) How soon zealousness dies.

Here's the facts, Jack - one "side" is just as guilty as the other. All kinds of debating "tricks" are used, and sometimes manners are left outside the Coffee Room.

But the weapons are, and remain, equal.

If Benedict wants to pack it in, that is his business, for whatever reasons he may have. Yet nobody can say with a straight face, that he has not done his best on many occasions to attack, play victim, and attack again. He is too smart an individual not to know what he is doing.

And you know, this small microcosm may just mirror national life, and politics in some representative way. For years, folks with a Leftward bent have used all kinds of tactics to move the national debate in their favor. Many times, people with a more conservative bent were not inclined to fight on many of those levels, erroneously thinking reason would prevail above all.

I think that has changed over the last 20 years, and is continuing to change. Conservatives have adopted, and now use, many of the same tactics. A fight is a fight, no matter who starts it.

And discrimination, or bigotry, is the same, no matter from which side it emminates.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#761343 - 11/10/03 02:46 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
This "kick butt" thing keeps getting thrown back at me. I do vaguely recall having said something, in a joking manner, to the effect that more liberals were needed in the coffee room to kick some conservative butt or some such thing. Please, if someone can find what I said, I'd love to see it, and put it to bed (I'm a poet and I don't know it. . ..) permanently! My point sure as hell wasn't, come and heap your abuses on me boys!

I have always been respectful of others on this forum - not necessarily the idea, but certainly the person - and I expect the same in return. And I won't stand by complacently while others are being maligned. My inclination, like Benedict's, is to just walk away (too bad my name's not Renee).

This is not about too liberal, too conservative, too anything but too rude! There is no reason why there can't be exchanges - - good heated discussions - - without personal slams and insults.

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#761344 - 11/10/03 03:05 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
DT,

 Quote:
B. immediately called me a hijacker because he disagreed with my belief.
1 I did not call you a hijacker. I said you hijacked the thread because it seemed on ethics more than religion. There was absolutely no intention of insulting you. I am sorry if you felt offended.

2 Calling someone a nazi is in an altogether different league. Especially when you know that person is a Jew and there has been suspiscion of antisemitic ghosts. Maybe you do not know what nazi means.

This said I understand that you would not like me.


I just have to put things straight so that people do not feel entitled to insult and harass because some you feel you have been done wrong to.

If you do not see the difference, then, you maybe not qualified to talk about evil.

Evil is hurting people deeply in an intentional way in their self-esteem, in their feelings or in their physical integrity.Nothing less. Nothing more.

It is so easy to abuse when the other person becomes an object and no more a subject (like in love thy neighbour). That is what evil is, DT, not seing the other as a person with feelings and a sense of self that is what can make life such a beautiful experience and real encounter such a necessary miracle.


I could have sent this personally through e-mail.
But it is important to me to leave this place with a sense of dignity.

This said, I apologize for sometimes being a bit intolerant to the way people in the US relate a lot of things to religion. It is not (yet ?) the custom in Europe.
_________________________
Benedict

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#761345 - 11/10/03 03:27 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
benedict's second curtain call.

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#761346 - 11/10/03 04:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
[QUOTE]... "culture of American violence" and the fact that firearms ownership is a protected right in the US. France has a 66% higher crime rate than the United States. (6,941/100,000 France as opposed to 4,160/100,000 US if you're interested), yet it is the US that is condemned... [/b]
Not all Americans agree that the ammendment protects an individual's "right to bear arms" but believe that it refers to state militias. Also, your crime rate statistic is by itself meaningless unless you break it down into the types of crimes. Tell us what is the murder rate per 100,000 in France? Here in Canada it is 2/100,000 and I would be surprised if France were higher. In the US the rate is 10/100,000- the highest in the developed world. Wouldn't have anything to do with the proliferation of guns (and hand guns in particular) in the US?

No, I am not a liberal and I resent being referred to as one since it is so typically partisan. Rather, I would take your semi-automatic and automatic weapons away. Not very liberal of me is it?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761347 - 11/10/03 04:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
DT,

1 I did not call you a hijacker. I said you hijacked the thread because it seemed on ethics more than religion. [/b][/QUOTE]

The difference seems minute to me since my ethics are tied to my belief.

The harshest thing I said was that you weren't always an innocent victim. That probably applies to everyone of us here...even the neighbors we love. The lecture was superfluous. (N.B. the last sentence says nothing about you personally.)
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#761348 - 11/10/03 04:12 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
...is to just walk away (too bad my name's not Renee).
[/b]
Wasn't that recorded by Left Banke? a propos? \:D
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#761349 - 11/10/03 04:22 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Not all Americans agree that the ammendment protects an individual's "right to bear arms" but believe that it refers to state militias. [/b]
Yes, we are all aware that there are Americans who believe in this curious interpretation of the Second Amendment. Their problem is that there is no genuine constitutional scholarship to support it. Not in the plain meaning of the text, the contemporaneous writings of those who drafted and ratified it, nor the decisions handed down by the Supreme Court since it was written. The belief that the Second Amendment applies only to a militia and does not refer to an individual right is a fantasy.

 Quote:
No, I am not a liberal and I resent being referred to as one since it is so typically partisan. Rather, I would take your semi-automatic and automatic weapons away. Not very liberal of me is it? [/b]
Fully automatic weapons are very difficult to own legally in this country. However, if semi-automatic firearms are banned then I would expect to see a sharp increase in the availability of illegal fully automatic weapons on the black market.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761350 - 11/10/03 04:33 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
So then you are telling me that Americans can't live without guns. I rest my case until the next excuse.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761351 - 11/10/03 04:45 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I'm not sure of your purpose for twisting my words out of conformity with their plain meaning but you may believe what you like. Whether or not Americans can "live without guns" is irrelevant to the issue of there being a constitutionally protected right to individual ownership.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761352 - 11/10/03 04:53 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
I'm not twisting anything since you admit that some believe the constitution refers to armed state militias. You offered an excuse as to why semi-auto actions should not be banned or at least regulated along with full atuomatics.I think Shantinik is right when he stated last summer that the ammendment should also include WMD.
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"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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